ATP and Relaxation Training

Post Reply
DPasek
Posts: 356
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2004 6:01 am
Location: Pittsboro, NC USA

ATP and Relaxation Training

Post by DPasek »

This post is primarily for ChiDragon (James Lee) since it shows evidence that may lend some support to his hypothesis about ATP and Taijiquan. It is the sort of research article (experimental scientific evidence) that James should search for if he wants his ideas to be something more than just speculative. Other TJQ practitioners may also find it to be of interest if they can get past (or work through) the technical details. Those without the technical understanding can probably skip the methods and results sections and just read the introduction and discussion. There are numerous abbreviations and technical analyses used, so those will likely be unclear to readers without knowledge in the field.

A May 2013 article by Bhasin et al. examines the relaxation response and the enhanced and reduced expression of various genes in response to relaxation response inducing practice:
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/artic ... ne.0062817

It would be best for those interested to read the paper, but the following is my assessment of the research.

The selection of test subjects (specified as being healthy) is somewhat problematic and leads to a likely biased self-selection of participants. In this study it may not be too problematic since they measure objective criteria rather than relying on subjective questionnaires as is found in many studies on TJQ. They just seem to be looking at potential changes in those who practice their relaxation methods rather than studying a random sampling of the population. For them it may not matter that the participants have preconceived notions of receiving physical and/or emotional benefits from receiving relaxation response training (what could be comparable to the placebo effect). But this makes relating it to TJQ more difficult, and one should be cautious when doing so.

While the article does not specify the wording, subjects were recruited “using newspapers, on-line, and posted advertisements.” This indicates that relaxation was likely mentioned, and if so, then they likely would have recruited subjects who thought that they may benefit from a relaxation program. This would mean that the subjects were likely more stressed, etc, than the general population. This would affect the control levels of the information collected, but since the subjects served as their own controls (the novices before any training), for this study’s objectives it may not be too bad (but generalizing to any significance for TJQ should again be done with caution as the general TJQ practitioner would likely be initially less stressed than the novice participants in this study).

I liked that this study included an equal number of subjects that had 4-20 years of regular relaxation response eliciting practice (although the methods are not entirely specified, they include “several types of meditation, Yoga, and repetitive prayer”). This is one of the weaknesses of most studies on TJQ where the participants are all novices who are taught once a week for only a few months (not enough to really understand TJQ). In this study they were taught once a week over the 8 weeks of the study, and were given a 20 min. CD to use once a day at home on the other days.

Note that this study may be difficult to relate to TJQ because their relaxation response inducing method was entirely passive, i.e., listening to a 20 min. long CD. The training included “diaphragmatic breathing, body scan, mantra repetition, and mindfulness meditation” which all appears to probably be done sitting stationary (unlike TJQ which uses moving through a choreographed form sequence). Note especially the diaphragmatic breathing, as I will comment on this in more detail later.

Their comparative data was collected on the final day (after 8 weeks of daily practice) using three different time points; before the relaxation practice, immediately after the practice was finished and 15’ after that (in order to check for lingering effect after the practice had concluded). Their data collection and analysis seems reasonable to me (although using the control levels for the novices is not ideal for comparing the experienced subjects that had prior training/practice), although I do not have the specific background in the methods used.

The following are some of the things that I found interesting in the study:

To quote from the discussion (mentioning ATP, among other things):
The RR [relaxation response] significantly affects multiple pathways through mitochondrial signaling that may promote cellular and systemic adaptive plasticity responses. In essence these adaptive responses become markers of what might be called mitochondrial resiliency or mitochondrial reserve capacity. The gene expression data indicate the RR specifically upregulates energy production of ATP through the ATP synthase electron transport complex. This might result in an enhanced mitochondrial reserve providing the capacity to meet the metabolic energy demands required to buffer against oxidative stress that emerges in many stress related diseases. Depending on variables such as genetic endowment and epigenetic interactions with micro- and macro-environmental circumstances, different mitochondria will have variable capacities to dampen the pathogenic effects of oxidative stress, and this has sometimes been referred to as differential mitochondrial reserve capacity [70]. When cells experience severe oxidative stress through increased cellular metabolic demands, there is a loss of mitochondrial reserve capacity contributing to a fall in mitochondrial resiliency, which may be a major contributor in disease vulnerability.
It should be noted that:
Analysis of the transcriptome data revealed that temporal modulation of gene expression occurred in both short- (N2) and long-term (M) practitioners as compared to novices (N1). Long-term RR practitioners exhibited more pronounced and consistent immediate gene expression changes as compared to short-term practitioners. Some genes were modified only in long-term practitioners (Long-term patterns), whereas others were modified in both short- and long-term practitioners with a greater intensity in the latter (Progressive patterns).
This is why I liked that they included experienced practitioners in this study.

There are other points of interest that, for example, could enhance measures of longevity:
Long-term RR practice, moreover, upregulated pathways associated with genomic stability such as telomere packing, telomere maintenance and tight junction interaction. Telomere dysfunction can cause disruption of mitochondrial regulators and cause mitochondrial compromise that ends in apoptosis [62]. Findings of several recent studies support our notion that mind/body interventions such as RR may enhance telomerase pathways. For example, a 3 month meditation intervention in 30 participants resulted in increased immune cell telomerase activity when compared to 30 matched control subjects [63]. In contrast, psychological stress has been linked to reduced telomerase activity, shortening of telomeres, and accelerated cell aging [64], [65]. Telomere length has been linked to insulin resistance and our findings of insulin signaling as a key target that is upregulated progressively as the time of RR practice increases corroborates this association [66].
Also, there are possible benefits related to psychosocial stress:
Gene sets identified by GSEA as progressively downregulated by RR practices are linked to pathways that play critical roles in the inflammatory response, including those connected with the pro-inflammatory transcription factors NF-κB and RELA, and TNFR2, IL7 and TCR signaling... Downregulation of NF-κB inflammatory response gene sets may lead to reductions in oxidative stress, insulin resistance and apoptosis [53]. NF-κB has been identified as a potential bridge between psychosocial stress and oxidative cellular activation [54]. This supports our previous finding that RR significantly impacts the NF-κB cascade [22] at baseline in healthy subjects... In a vicious cycle, psychosocial stress can cause chronic mitochondrial oxidative stress that can lead to the metabolic syndrome (hypertension, obesity, insulin resistant diabetes mellitus, and hyperlipidemia) [59], [60]. This stress can lead to activation of NF-κB, which in turn can worsen oxidative stress and the metabolic syndrome.
Not mentioned in the discussion is their collection and analysis of fractional exhaled nitric oxide samples:
The role of FeNO in explaining the physiological effects of RR, including reduction in blood pressure, has been hypothesized [25]. Our previous investigation provides preliminary evidence of the effect of RR in increasing FeNO levels [15]. FeNO is known to play a prominent role in vascular dilatation, which affects blood pressure [26], [27] and is also capable of influencing the character of immune responses [28].
FeNO data was used “To evaluate whether changes of physiological or biological parameters acquired in the subjects before and after RR elicitation correlate with gene expression changes.” I think that this was a good addition to the study since biological parameters do not always reflect gene regulation. For example, up-regulation of the ATP synthase only indicates that ATP levels are probably increased, but actual measurements of ATP synthase protein levels, or of ATP directly, would be necessary to confirm this.

Not mentioned is that FeNO would rise solely based on nose breathing, most likely a part of their “abdominal breathing” training. As I understand it, it is estimated that 30-50% of modern adults breath excessively through the mouth, especially during the morning hours. Those that use “stress breathing” which is primarily using the chest rather than the abdomen/diaphragm, are probably likely to include a high percentage of those novices who decided to participate in this study.

Also, while ATP levels may have been increased in the mitochondria, the levels in cells do not drop dramatically with peripheral fatigue as can be seen in the results of the following research:
https://www.carlarobbins.com/single-pos ... le-fatigue
Whether or not [ATP] changes with peripheral fatigue and whether or not changes in [ATP] are relevant to force production, have been controversial topics among researchers. ATP is used in excitation contraction coupling, by ion pumps and transporters, and for chemical signaling cascades (MacIntosh et al. 2012). A decrease in ATP would, for example, result in reduced force production and altered cross bridge mechanics (Fitts, 1994). While there have been reports of [ATP] falling to critical levels, the majority of research suggests that overall muscle [ATP] does not fall more than 10-20% of normal values (Fitts, 1994; Allen et al, 2008; MacIntosh et al. 2012).
While this research lends some support to James’ ideas about ATP and TJQ, there is too much uncertainty to draw any conclusions. For example, it could be that proper regulation of the breath could be responsible for all of the effects seen in this study, and none of the accompanying mental &/or physical training that goes along with the training in this study, or in the practice of TJQ, has any effect. But since TJQ does teach proper abdominal breathing, I suspect that the results of this study will also apply to TJQ.
ChiDragon
Posts: 629
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:00 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: ATP and Relaxation Training

Post by ChiDragon »

https://www.google.com/search?q=How+do+ ... 20&bih=938
How do you do a relaxation response?
Steps to Elicit the Relaxation Response
1. Sit quietly in a comfortable position.
2. Close your eyes.
3. Deeply relax all your muscles, beginning at your feet and progressing up to your face. ...
4. Breathe through your nose. Become aware of your breathing. ...
5. Continue for 10 to 20 minutes. ...
6. Do not worry about whether you are successful.
Sorry, relaxation response does not apply to Tai Chi Quan. It is because items #1, 2, and 3 do not. Even though it was asked to relax the muscles, since there are movements, the muscles are really not completely relaxed. Besides, who practice Tai Chi with the eyes closed?
A deep discussion requires explicit details for a good comprehension of a complex subject.
DPasek
Posts: 356
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2004 6:01 am
Location: Pittsboro, NC USA

Re: ATP and Relaxation Training

Post by DPasek »

Well, the researchers define it differently that you do:
The relaxation response (RR) is a physiological and psychological state opposite to the stress or fight-or-flight response [1], [2], [3].
And
The RR is elicited when an individual focuses on a word, sound, phrase, repetitive prayer, or movement, and disregards everyday thoughts [2]. These two steps break the train of everyday thinking. Millennia-old mind-body approaches that elicit the RR include: various forms of meditation (e.g., mindfulness meditation and transcendental meditation); different practices of yoga (e.g., Vipassana and Kundalini); Tai Chi; Qi Gong; progressive muscle relaxation; biofeedback; and breathing exercises [14]
ChiDragon
Posts: 629
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:00 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: ATP and Relaxation Training

Post by ChiDragon »

OK! Those definitions are too broad and obfuscates. It doesn't narrow down to a specific subject rather it is shooting duck in a random process. I didn't see how it was related to the emphasis on ATP. I only see the explanation on the small effect of the ATP. I don't see what they are looking for but using some misleading parameters and ended up with speculation and inclusive results.

In the near future, I wish I can hear your stories in your own words rather than citing from other sources which is irrelevant to the subject in discussion.
A deep discussion requires explicit details for a good comprehension of a complex subject.
DPasek
Posts: 356
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2004 6:01 am
Location: Pittsboro, NC USA

Re: ATP and Relaxation Training

Post by DPasek »

James,

You may think that the research is irrelevant, but I disagree! I have provided a link to the research so that other readers can read it and judge for themselves, and they can then search for additional related information if desired. I have provided my own comments (my own words) concerning the research, pointing out what I view as strengths, weaknesses, applicability to TJQ, etc.

Their research was intentionally broad and looked for ANY significant changes in the regulation of any genes (epigenetics). You certainly are not suggesting that studying epigenetics is irrelevant, are you? Only after identifying significant changes did they offer their insights into what those changes may imply. Their use of the scientific method is appropriate (IMO); if you have a problem with the scientific method, then your ideas likely will never achieve solid support.

The specific subject, for them, is how the relaxation response affects gene regulation. It is up to people with differing interests to determine if there is information in their results that are relevant to their own interests. I think that there is. You do not. OK. Other readers can decide for themselves. They were not specifically studying TJQ, and they were not specifically looking at ATP, but this does not mean that their research is not relevant to either topic. If you want specifically targeted research, then do it yourself, or pay someone to do it for you, or wait and wait in the hope that someone will eventually do it on their own!

While I am a biochemist, I am a specialist in the Ryanodine Receptor (Calcium Release Channel), not in ATP synthase, the relaxation response, etc. Therefore, I need to look at the research results of other investigators and see for myself if I think their research contains useful information that I can apply to my own interests. My comments on their research were in my own words. The subject of my comments was the published research. It is more accurate to quote the actual research that I am commenting on rather than putting words into their mouths, as they say. I am a scientist – if you do not like the scientific approach that I take, well then, you can ignore me. Other readers may still find the information to be of interest.

If you do not see any relevance of the research for TJQ, then there is no reason for me to discuss it further with you. If other readers have questions or comments, then I would be willing to respond to them.
ChiDragon
Posts: 629
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:00 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: ATP and Relaxation Training

Post by ChiDragon »

Their use of the scientific method is appropriate (IMO); if you have a problem with the scientific method, then your ideas likely will never achieve solid support.
To me, a scientific method is to narrow things down and come to a conclusion. Using broad and obfuscated definitions just won't do it for me. I believe the researchers are not Tai Chi, qigong, or yoga practitioners which do not have enough knowledge about each practice. They used different groups of people to conduct experiments by doing blood test and draw to a conclusion. I was just wondering did they have to right approach, especially, with Tai Chi practitioners. Have they understand enough about Tai chi and come up with a hypothesis and draw to conclusion with scientific experiments. So far, I have not seen any valid experiment was conducted by any researcher.

BTW Ideas are created by people with some basic knowledge. Who and what is going to support the original idea to begin with?

If I have a problem with the scientific method, then I shouldn't had been an electrical engineer in the first place. IMHO Using personal attack or accusation of any kind, especially in scientific discussions, is not very scientific nor my expertise.
A deep discussion requires explicit details for a good comprehension of a complex subject.
DPasek
Posts: 356
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2004 6:01 am
Location: Pittsboro, NC USA

Re: ATP and Relaxation Training

Post by DPasek »

Since I suspect that we are doomed to speak past each other (at least when discussing science), I do not feel that it is worth my time or effort to continue this with you.

I suspect that we have different, and perhaps incompatible, views of science and the scientific method. Being an electrical engineer means that you use scientific principles, but that does not mean that you therefore understand the scientific METHOD used in research. That you do not seem to see this distinction indicates to me that you do not understand the scientific method (the methodology used for scientific inquiry). Most people do not understand the scientific method, and I do not understand why stating that I do not think that you do either, is insulting.

That you bring up a researchers understanding of Taijiquan is baffling to me. The researching and understanding of ATP is not dependent on any knowledge of Taijiquan, and most of our scientific understanding of ATP likely comes from individuals who had never even heard of Taijiquan. You seem to imply that a lack of understanding of Taijiquan invalidates any possible relevance for any information about ATP that is not directly linked to Taijiquan. (???) Scientific concepts apply whether or not one understands all possible relevancies for the information, unless you are viewing Taijiquan as somehow being magical and therefore outside of the scope of ordinary scientific understanding? (???)

That you interpret my disagreements with you as personal attacks and accusations further indicates to me that we are only talking past each other, and that it is not worthwhile for me to continue. Online forums are poorly suited to discussions where participants have fundamentally different, possibly incompatible, understandings.

I am truly baffled!
Post Reply