I found your question really quite hard to answer, so much depends on ones own level and contact with others of higher levels working on the same ideas....
For me
I think the most important point is to understand that the mind touches something first followed by the qi and finely by the body.
The body confirms what the mind already knows. The question then becomes at what point does one change. In my practice the answer is at the mind stage. But most can not start from there. fist learn the changes in the outer body, then the changes in the inner body, then the changes in the qi. Last the changes in ones mind.
The problem is that most including me at times do not have the sensitivity to really feel the changes at their beginning point the mind. Which means that one is not song enough in body and not clear or empty enough in ones own mind.
How ever one achieves this in their practice would be the method to use.
[This message has been edited by bamboo leaf (edited 10-14-2006).]
is this even possible??
Hi David,
"I found your question really quite hard to answer,"
If you were speaking to me, thank you, not for the answer you did give, but for the answer that you didn't give. Fwiw, when you find an answer, I'll definitely pay attention. But, I probably won't readily accept some of the glib answers that are given too often.
regards,
Steve James
"I found your question really quite hard to answer,"
If you were speaking to me, thank you, not for the answer you did give, but for the answer that you didn't give. Fwiw, when you find an answer, I'll definitely pay attention. But, I probably won't readily accept some of the glib answers that are given too often.
regards,
Steve James
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Anderzander
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Steve - I'm struggling to know what your point is? Sorry.
I've read your posts through a couple of times to see if I could add anything to the dialogue, but I can't figure out what you are saying?
And now I am totally lost as to why you would thank someone for not providing an answer, as if that had answered something for you?
But I wonder if he is like me and doesn't know what you are actually asking?
I've seen your question on what he thinks the mechanism is, and he said near the top on page 1:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">what is really happing? What I see is someone who has really good ting jin, able to sense the point, time and direction of the others intent to issue and issuing before them. The other is not able to change and so is carried by his own intent the strong intent of the other. In each case the other is either trying to issue or finding that he has encountered emptiness is trying to escape. Mr Ho is simply following this out. The other demo where he is surrounded, first he has to empty very fast, then he follows the others out they react to his emptiness. Think of a balloon that is suddenly deflated and inflated again following the others out. A basic idea would be to tell some one to push against your arm, if you can tell when they are about to push you should be able to feel at what point their qi has arrived, shoulder, elbow, wrist. At the shoulder or elbow you can send them back very easily they will not be able to change in response to your issue. If it has reached the wrist or hand it’s a little hard, you can empty before it gets there and then follow as they leave.
Most would call this withdraw and push, fist learn to do it with the body then later one will be able to sense the mind, and use this method.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
and a bit higher up:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I think the most important point is to understand that the mind touches something first followed by the qi and finely by the body.
The body confirms what the mind already knows. The question then becomes at what point does one change. In my practice the answer is at the mind stage. But most can not start from there. fist learn the changes in the outer body, then the changes in the inner body, then the changes in the qi. Last the changes in ones mind.
The problem is that most including me at times do not have the sensitivity to really feel the changes at their beginning point the mind. Which means that one is not song enough in body and not clear or empty enough in ones own mind.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
does that not answer what he thinks the mechanism is? or do you mean something else?
Stephen
[This message has been edited by Anderzander (edited 10-14-2006).]
I've read your posts through a couple of times to see if I could add anything to the dialogue, but I can't figure out what you are saying?
And now I am totally lost as to why you would thank someone for not providing an answer, as if that had answered something for you?
But I wonder if he is like me and doesn't know what you are actually asking?
I've seen your question on what he thinks the mechanism is, and he said near the top on page 1:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">what is really happing? What I see is someone who has really good ting jin, able to sense the point, time and direction of the others intent to issue and issuing before them. The other is not able to change and so is carried by his own intent the strong intent of the other. In each case the other is either trying to issue or finding that he has encountered emptiness is trying to escape. Mr Ho is simply following this out. The other demo where he is surrounded, first he has to empty very fast, then he follows the others out they react to his emptiness. Think of a balloon that is suddenly deflated and inflated again following the others out. A basic idea would be to tell some one to push against your arm, if you can tell when they are about to push you should be able to feel at what point their qi has arrived, shoulder, elbow, wrist. At the shoulder or elbow you can send them back very easily they will not be able to change in response to your issue. If it has reached the wrist or hand it’s a little hard, you can empty before it gets there and then follow as they leave.
Most would call this withdraw and push, fist learn to do it with the body then later one will be able to sense the mind, and use this method.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
and a bit higher up:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I think the most important point is to understand that the mind touches something first followed by the qi and finely by the body.
The body confirms what the mind already knows. The question then becomes at what point does one change. In my practice the answer is at the mind stage. But most can not start from there. fist learn the changes in the outer body, then the changes in the inner body, then the changes in the qi. Last the changes in ones mind.
The problem is that most including me at times do not have the sensitivity to really feel the changes at their beginning point the mind. Which means that one is not song enough in body and not clear or empty enough in ones own mind.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
does that not answer what he thinks the mechanism is? or do you mean something else?
Stephen
[This message has been edited by Anderzander (edited 10-14-2006).]
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Anderzander
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Steve 
I still don't know what you meant though! lol
If this is any use, here is a post I made on another forum about a different clip (one I liked a lot lot more than this one here in fact) - so despite all of that it may prove useful?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I think the "hypnotic/suggestive component" and "people expect and allow certain things to happen" are the bits I think commonly misinterpreted.
The key point of the skill is the control of the others mind. I spent years learning to control the body of my opponent, but this is a different approach ime.
Have you run up the stairs and expected an extra step, or gone to sit and the chair has gone, or caught your foot on a kerb and started to go over. There can be a terrible jarring feeling as the mind comes out of synch with the body. At that moment until your mind and body can re-synchronise you can't control your body.
Training giving emptiness to fullness and turning following into leading is to gain control of the persons mind.
Now, compliancy. Just like the stairs don't require you to be compliant or allow them to do anything the potential is there it to be done by a person.
The experience level of both people makes the difference, and so does the speed at which it is done.
You can give your mind and move slowly and that makes it easier for the person to work with, I think of this in the same way that when you are first learning your 'Age Uke' in Karate (for eg) your partner punches slowly and deliberately.
On the other side pushing slowly and giving your mind allows you to feel what is being done to you. You don't want to be doing you 'gyakazuki' and have the 'Age Uke' done so fast that you don't know what went on other than you now have a haematoma on your arm
To improve the skill of the person receiving, you increase the speed and degree of non-compliance just like your would for your 'Age Uke' and 'Gyakazuki'.
Catching the mind of the person is harder when its done fast, that is certainly true, but so is recovering your control of your body when it been caught at that speed. So going slow helps both people.
Sometimes when you see filmed examples of this kind of skill it perhaps takes a little experience to help see the difference. In some of them the teacher has the skill to work with non-compliant people, but slows it down to help the person pushing. In some of them the teacher does not have the skill to work with non-compliant people, and it is done slowly for his benefit.
I think it gets confused when people don't know which one is being shown and sometimes perhaps a teacher could be unscrupulous and state it is being done slowly/compliantly for the students benefit - when in fact it is for his. That seems to damage the whole thing because people then believe it is all like that.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I still don't know what you meant though! lol
If this is any use, here is a post I made on another forum about a different clip (one I liked a lot lot more than this one here in fact) - so despite all of that it may prove useful?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I think the "hypnotic/suggestive component" and "people expect and allow certain things to happen" are the bits I think commonly misinterpreted.
The key point of the skill is the control of the others mind. I spent years learning to control the body of my opponent, but this is a different approach ime.
Have you run up the stairs and expected an extra step, or gone to sit and the chair has gone, or caught your foot on a kerb and started to go over. There can be a terrible jarring feeling as the mind comes out of synch with the body. At that moment until your mind and body can re-synchronise you can't control your body.
Training giving emptiness to fullness and turning following into leading is to gain control of the persons mind.
Now, compliancy. Just like the stairs don't require you to be compliant or allow them to do anything the potential is there it to be done by a person.
The experience level of both people makes the difference, and so does the speed at which it is done.
You can give your mind and move slowly and that makes it easier for the person to work with, I think of this in the same way that when you are first learning your 'Age Uke' in Karate (for eg) your partner punches slowly and deliberately.
On the other side pushing slowly and giving your mind allows you to feel what is being done to you. You don't want to be doing you 'gyakazuki' and have the 'Age Uke' done so fast that you don't know what went on other than you now have a haematoma on your arm
To improve the skill of the person receiving, you increase the speed and degree of non-compliance just like your would for your 'Age Uke' and 'Gyakazuki'.
Catching the mind of the person is harder when its done fast, that is certainly true, but so is recovering your control of your body when it been caught at that speed. So going slow helps both people.
Sometimes when you see filmed examples of this kind of skill it perhaps takes a little experience to help see the difference. In some of them the teacher has the skill to work with non-compliant people, but slows it down to help the person pushing. In some of them the teacher does not have the skill to work with non-compliant people, and it is done slowly for his benefit.
I think it gets confused when people don't know which one is being shown and sometimes perhaps a teacher could be unscrupulous and state it is being done slowly/compliantly for the students benefit - when in fact it is for his. That seems to damage the whole thing because people then believe it is all like that.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi Stephen,
you wrote:
"Have you run up the stairs and expected an extra step, or gone to sit and the chair has gone, or caught your foot on a kerb and started to go over. There can be a terrible jarring feeling as the mind comes out of synch with the body. At that moment until your mind and body can re-synchronise you can't control your body."
I know exactly what you're talking about, and I'd agree with that as a rational explanation for "some" of the things we've seen in clips. I don't think that it explains "all" of the clips or the reactions of some of the people on the clips.
Your example above is perfectly reasonable. Other examples might include having a chair pulled out from under one, or expecting a solid wall and finding that none is there. In all those cases, however, the reaction is typically short.
In some demos, the master waves his finger and the student twirls around for minutes. At least, ime, these are not demos of what you describe above.
My main point has been: "How does one distinguish between the real and the fake?" Of course, if everything is real, that implies that we should believe everything. I don't believe, however, that everything is fake. So, I don't take seriously those who argue that everything on all these demos is real. They can not discriminate between real and fake.
Ah, but when someone admits that it's not easy to tell the difference; then I know we're at least talking the same language. I can very easily stick to the "it's all fake" line, just as easily as those who hold the opposite belief. I will admit that some of the things we see are not faked.
Btw, I do not consider "suggestion" or "hypnosis" to be "fake." But, I have yet to meet many believers who accept those as viable possibilities. Generally, they beg the question and ask me why I don't believe.
But, enough about me. Ya know, fwiw, I also think that partner dancing also contains some good models.
cheers,
Steve J
you wrote:
"Have you run up the stairs and expected an extra step, or gone to sit and the chair has gone, or caught your foot on a kerb and started to go over. There can be a terrible jarring feeling as the mind comes out of synch with the body. At that moment until your mind and body can re-synchronise you can't control your body."
I know exactly what you're talking about, and I'd agree with that as a rational explanation for "some" of the things we've seen in clips. I don't think that it explains "all" of the clips or the reactions of some of the people on the clips.
Your example above is perfectly reasonable. Other examples might include having a chair pulled out from under one, or expecting a solid wall and finding that none is there. In all those cases, however, the reaction is typically short.
In some demos, the master waves his finger and the student twirls around for minutes. At least, ime, these are not demos of what you describe above.
My main point has been: "How does one distinguish between the real and the fake?" Of course, if everything is real, that implies that we should believe everything. I don't believe, however, that everything is fake. So, I don't take seriously those who argue that everything on all these demos is real. They can not discriminate between real and fake.
Ah, but when someone admits that it's not easy to tell the difference; then I know we're at least talking the same language. I can very easily stick to the "it's all fake" line, just as easily as those who hold the opposite belief. I will admit that some of the things we see are not faked.
Btw, I do not consider "suggestion" or "hypnosis" to be "fake." But, I have yet to meet many believers who accept those as viable possibilities. Generally, they beg the question and ask me why I don't believe.
But, enough about me. Ya know, fwiw, I also think that partner dancing also contains some good models.
cheers,
Steve J
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Anderzander
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I'm sure experience is the surest way.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">"How does one distinguish between the real and the fake?"</font>
I doubt many are fakes in the sense that what is being shown has no substance. Some may be presented in an ambiguous or perhaps even misleading way?
Its all about having some experience to inform you of what you are seeing to determine what is happening.
When I look at the clips I can only say, I've experienced that or I haven't. If I have it tells me a lot about it.
Sometimes its possible to extrapolate from what I have experienced to gain insight into something I see but havent experienced.
Sometimes I Just don't know, so withold judgement.
[This message has been edited by Anderzander (edited 10-14-2006).]
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bamboo leaf
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My answer was in response to Yuri’s question.
(So, what is the mechanism?) I view it more of a process where by one fist understands what is meant by qi, yi and shen and then operates off of that understanding, refining it as one develops and is exposed to others of higher level.)
this was in response to your question.
(We've agreed that "it" exists. So, what is the mechanism?) had to reread the question again.
(Well, in brief, how does one tell the difference between reality and illusion?)
accepting one and rejecting the other based on ones own senses and intellect. All reality takes place in the mind, it’s the sharing of this that determines what is real or not.
(For example, have you ever experienced someone making you do back flips or jumping up in the air and spinning around? Just saying "It's possible" isn't enough. If you have not experienced it, how can you say that it is possible? )
I think after reading many of your posting on this thread that this is the real point. My answer is that that one experiences it according to ones own level of experience but knows its possible based on an extension of that experience which at this point has become ordinary.
Until such time as one runs into or starts to acquire such extraordinary experiences as those shown, which in time will then become ordinary…the only choice is to either … rule it out, which I never quite understand, as the possibility is forever closed off.
Or extend their own experience out allowing one to see something similar but at a higher level, with others giving hints of how to get there one either accepts it and continues to practice using the hints or as in the later case doesn’t care and continues to practice. neither is right or wrong one leads to this path the other will not.
[This message has been edited by bamboo leaf (edited 10-14-2006).]
(So, what is the mechanism?) I view it more of a process where by one fist understands what is meant by qi, yi and shen and then operates off of that understanding, refining it as one develops and is exposed to others of higher level.)
this was in response to your question.
(We've agreed that "it" exists. So, what is the mechanism?) had to reread the question again.
(Well, in brief, how does one tell the difference between reality and illusion?)
accepting one and rejecting the other based on ones own senses and intellect. All reality takes place in the mind, it’s the sharing of this that determines what is real or not.
(For example, have you ever experienced someone making you do back flips or jumping up in the air and spinning around? Just saying "It's possible" isn't enough. If you have not experienced it, how can you say that it is possible? )
I think after reading many of your posting on this thread that this is the real point. My answer is that that one experiences it according to ones own level of experience but knows its possible based on an extension of that experience which at this point has become ordinary.
Until such time as one runs into or starts to acquire such extraordinary experiences as those shown, which in time will then become ordinary…the only choice is to either … rule it out, which I never quite understand, as the possibility is forever closed off.
Or extend their own experience out allowing one to see something similar but at a higher level, with others giving hints of how to get there one either accepts it and continues to practice using the hints or as in the later case doesn’t care and continues to practice. neither is right or wrong one leads to this path the other will not.
[This message has been edited by bamboo leaf (edited 10-14-2006).]
Hi David,
"accepting one and rejecting the other based on ones own senses and intellect. All reality takes place in the mind, it’s the sharing of this that determines what is real or not."
If it's real for you, then it is real. But, you cannot, by extension, say that it is real for anyone else. To do that would be to attempt to coopt their "own senses and intellect."
regards,
Steve James
"accepting one and rejecting the other based on ones own senses and intellect. All reality takes place in the mind, it’s the sharing of this that determines what is real or not."
If it's real for you, then it is real. But, you cannot, by extension, say that it is real for anyone else. To do that would be to attempt to coopt their "own senses and intellect."
regards,
Steve James
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bamboo leaf
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by tai1chi:
<B>Hi David,
"accepting one and rejecting the other based on ones own senses and intellect. All reality takes place in the mind, it’s the sharing of this that determines what is real or not."
If it's real for you, then it is real. But, you cannot, by extension, say that it is real for anyone else. To do that would be to attempt to coopt their "own senses and intellect."
regards,
Steve James</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi Steve
I read these two quotes with Taiji interest
as of push hand skill, which I don't know much.
In Taiji I put "fong sung" and "listen skill/energy" on top of MY list. More "sung"
lead me more calm mind to higher skill of
"listen". In due time I forgot that I have li (unrefined strength),so I don't use it "that much" any more because by then My training 'might'me lead to the kingdom of Oz
and receive the secret to process my qi power as strong as steel through the same procees of steel making and then wrap it in my as soft as 'cotton' sung. I could imagine
and believe what I able to do if I got all other 8 energy in my cotton wraping at the same time!!! And the fact is, that is what I am TRY to practicing with this same understanding close to David (no, I have not meet David yet but I know what he is talking about) MY mind is empty on this thought of real or not and my yi is focus only two things; fong sung and listen. simultaneously as I practice my form with '2 body';MY mind move my 'qi body' first as 'actor' and my 'phyical body' follow as 'suporting actor'or like a duets (it was not easy but MY mind can be train or the mind can train the body which ever come first is ok with me at this time)
I 'listen' what you two have to said with the two quotes you posted above. I did not hear any thing nor any way that David"s post call for your post in such imagination base on this two quotes. I am NOT try to "attack" you Steve, as you had some good point of your own understanding on other post I enjoy as it is. The same manner I understand David's.And since you posted this two quotes side by side I can't quite understand cause this kind of side-effect.
I am just curious which 8 energy skill you applied with David in this 'push-hand' quotation.
I understand David's quote giving each of us a free choice at our own level of underatanding of what is. Anyway this is a no 'fa-jin' event just trying out low level of 'listen-jin'...I am practicing any way I can.
Have a good Taiji day
yslim
<B>Hi David,
"accepting one and rejecting the other based on ones own senses and intellect. All reality takes place in the mind, it’s the sharing of this that determines what is real or not."
If it's real for you, then it is real. But, you cannot, by extension, say that it is real for anyone else. To do that would be to attempt to coopt their "own senses and intellect."
regards,
Steve James</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi Steve
I read these two quotes with Taiji interest
as of push hand skill, which I don't know much.
In Taiji I put "fong sung" and "listen skill/energy" on top of MY list. More "sung"
lead me more calm mind to higher skill of
"listen". In due time I forgot that I have li (unrefined strength),so I don't use it "that much" any more because by then My training 'might'me lead to the kingdom of Oz
and receive the secret to process my qi power as strong as steel through the same procees of steel making and then wrap it in my as soft as 'cotton' sung. I could imagine
and believe what I able to do if I got all other 8 energy in my cotton wraping at the same time!!! And the fact is, that is what I am TRY to practicing with this same understanding close to David (no, I have not meet David yet but I know what he is talking about) MY mind is empty on this thought of real or not and my yi is focus only two things; fong sung and listen. simultaneously as I practice my form with '2 body';MY mind move my 'qi body' first as 'actor' and my 'phyical body' follow as 'suporting actor'or like a duets (it was not easy but MY mind can be train or the mind can train the body which ever come first is ok with me at this time)
I 'listen' what you two have to said with the two quotes you posted above. I did not hear any thing nor any way that David"s post call for your post in such imagination base on this two quotes. I am NOT try to "attack" you Steve, as you had some good point of your own understanding on other post I enjoy as it is. The same manner I understand David's.And since you posted this two quotes side by side I can't quite understand cause this kind of side-effect.
I am just curious which 8 energy skill you applied with David in this 'push-hand' quotation.
I understand David's quote giving each of us a free choice at our own level of underatanding of what is. Anyway this is a no 'fa-jin' event just trying out low level of 'listen-jin'...I am practicing any way I can.
Have a good Taiji day
yslim
Hi yslim,
I really can't respond without talking about David in the 3rd person, as if he isn't here. At any rate, whatever I think someone "means" is based on what he writes. I don't try to guess. Well, that's not true. Usually, I try to take what's written in the best light possible. However, I didn't interpret David's comment. I quoted it verbatim. And, I would respond the same way now. It is unfortunate, but I would be dishonest not to.
So, I repeat, if you base your argument on experience; then others have the right to theirs. If you say that, you have created a dead end to the discussion.
I can't argue with David's experience. Therefore, I can't argue with Bob's. Everybody's entitled to his or her opinion. But, the argument "you would agree if you had my experience" is a fallacy.
It is also true that Bob's opinion (sorry to use you, guy) toward those demos is shared by many traditionalists within the Yang style. I hesitate to speak of the Yang family, but their thoughts are relatively well known. Kindly correct me if I'm mistaken.
So, if that's true, why should anyone bother listening to anyone who says different? Isn't it a sign of respect just to consider it? Well, as per the title of this thread, if someone doesn't even consider it "possible" that the other side could be correct, then there's not really much to talk about. That's just the truth.
I can't tell you what anyone means. I can only say how I "experience" it and how it makes "me" feel.
regards,
Steve James
I really can't respond without talking about David in the 3rd person, as if he isn't here. At any rate, whatever I think someone "means" is based on what he writes. I don't try to guess. Well, that's not true. Usually, I try to take what's written in the best light possible. However, I didn't interpret David's comment. I quoted it verbatim. And, I would respond the same way now. It is unfortunate, but I would be dishonest not to.
So, I repeat, if you base your argument on experience; then others have the right to theirs. If you say that, you have created a dead end to the discussion.
I can't argue with David's experience. Therefore, I can't argue with Bob's. Everybody's entitled to his or her opinion. But, the argument "you would agree if you had my experience" is a fallacy.
It is also true that Bob's opinion (sorry to use you, guy) toward those demos is shared by many traditionalists within the Yang style. I hesitate to speak of the Yang family, but their thoughts are relatively well known. Kindly correct me if I'm mistaken.
So, if that's true, why should anyone bother listening to anyone who says different? Isn't it a sign of respect just to consider it? Well, as per the title of this thread, if someone doesn't even consider it "possible" that the other side could be correct, then there's not really much to talk about. That's just the truth.
I can't tell you what anyone means. I can only say how I "experience" it and how it makes "me" feel.
regards,
Steve James
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Yuri Snisarenko
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- Location: Russia
David, thank you for the reply. In my practice I usually don't think about the "change", so I am not completely sure what you mean. I rather follow like a wet leaf glued to the clothes. My attention is usually on the other's jin/li. When his movement and li has naturally exhausted, I push. What is your attention on in pushing hands?
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bamboo leaf
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(What is your attention on in pushing hands? )
not on myself not on the other, I try to make myself as empty as possible. In this way before the other can use their jin or li I can hear / sense their intent and lead this before their jin/li reaches me.
From your other post: Wei Shuren
(I said, so I can imprint only mental attitude and qi-shi (momentum of qi), not the posture. The teacher had clapped the hands and said: "That's right! To lift the hands is WCSW, but this is internally performed WCSW!")
wow ! what a profound statement. All my typing and this says it all very simply and completely. Apply this to push hands and you will get it.
not on myself not on the other, I try to make myself as empty as possible. In this way before the other can use their jin or li I can hear / sense their intent and lead this before their jin/li reaches me.
From your other post: Wei Shuren
(I said, so I can imprint only mental attitude and qi-shi (momentum of qi), not the posture. The teacher had clapped the hands and said: "That's right! To lift the hands is WCSW, but this is internally performed WCSW!")
wow ! what a profound statement. All my typing and this says it all very simply and completely. Apply this to push hands and you will get it.
