One more quick thought on the subject just occured to me.
If anyone can stand one more....?
Oh, well. Here it is anyway.
In my rambling way in my previous post, I was trying to get across an idea that wasn't clear to me. Only after getting away from it for a moment was I able to put it into clear thought.
If you think of the form as a whole unto itself, rather than a collection of "parts", then continuity comes clearer.
Rather than thinking, "Now, this is Step Up and Play the Pipa. Now, this is Step Forward, Deflect, Parry and Punch. Now, this is Apparent Close up. Now, this is..."
Don't think that at all.
Instead get past thinking of seperate "forms" and think of one form. One complete, threaded, continuous movement from beginning to end with no places to stop, no beginnings and no endings.
Not easy to do, I know, not a good idea for a beginner in any case. But I think it well worth the effort if you've reached the point of trying to consider "continuity" in form work rather than thinking of each form by itself.
This may be one of those "stepping stones" that only someone who has learned the individual forms well and is now trying to move on to a greater, more flowing and continuous practice of the form can take.
I have heard that one goal of TCC is to go from form to formlessness. Perhaps it would be better to consider something like this as one small step on the way? To lose the idea of "forms" and move into thinking of it as one form, complete only when completed and not before, may be one more step on the road to formlessness.
It's an idea, anyway. Maybe one that stinks, I'll give you that, but it's all I've got to offer in my limited way.
OK. There's my two cents. Take them for what they're worth.
I only hope to start some discussion that will bring this funny idea of mine out in the open for discussion and hope I don't get torn up too badly over it.
What does everyone think? Good idea? Bad idea? Lousy idea?
Let me know.
Individual natural rhythm
-
cheefatt taichi
- Posts: 59
- Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 6:01 am
Hi all,
Occasionally I do purposely engage in seemingly broken form, physical movement that is. At the end of each posture, physical movements become very minute and undectable by untrained eyes. The emphasize is on extending Yi, chi and all relevent jin. Internally I am still flowing from one posture to another but externally observer may thought there is break between posture.
For instant in Grasping the Peacock's Tail, At the end of Peng posture, I would continue to sink very subtedly and extend my yi leading chi and jin to continue to expand...I prefer to use `expanding my peng jin sphere' because there are multiple forces working at the same time expanding in different directions just as I am in the middle of a balloon being inflated. At this point, physical movements are so tiny that people will think there is a break. When yi, chi and jin are extended far enough I will then change to rollback and again at the end of physical movement there seems to be a break but internally I am not.
Best regards.
Occasionally I do purposely engage in seemingly broken form, physical movement that is. At the end of each posture, physical movements become very minute and undectable by untrained eyes. The emphasize is on extending Yi, chi and all relevent jin. Internally I am still flowing from one posture to another but externally observer may thought there is break between posture.
For instant in Grasping the Peacock's Tail, At the end of Peng posture, I would continue to sink very subtedly and extend my yi leading chi and jin to continue to expand...I prefer to use `expanding my peng jin sphere' because there are multiple forces working at the same time expanding in different directions just as I am in the middle of a balloon being inflated. At this point, physical movements are so tiny that people will think there is a break. When yi, chi and jin are extended far enough I will then change to rollback and again at the end of physical movement there seems to be a break but internally I am not.
Best regards.
Hi Bamenwubu,
I think your idea is a good one, but I don't think it quite addresses my issue. My problem is not how to be continuous, but rather how to be internally continuous while still punctuating the end of each named posture. In other words, how does one show a "pause" and yet not stop internally?
I think the reason for the pause is to train oneself to feel the natural limits of a particular structure. For me, it is not an arbitrary stopping point, but a product of the various flows of energy guided by my mind reaching a equilibrium that focuses the energy to a particular maximum. If I eliminate the maximum, it is much easier to flow, but then I question whether I really learn to calibrate the posture movements correctly.
If you never pull the bow to the maximum, do you really learn how you need to initiate the pull in the first place? Can you be sure you have taken the best path for a journey if you abandon it before getting all the way to the destination?
Even with a sense of opponent, the question still arises as to where to visualize the change from "offense" to "defense." How soon do you see or "feel" the opponent's neutralization. In the case of the punch, when does the opponent grab?
In doing form, I would say that I follow through in postures long after I would normally try to initiate a change in push hands. I think the rhythm of neutralization the form prescribes would be quite challenging with a real partner/opponent.
For me, being formless does not have so much to do with changing my forms as in seeing clearly the principles beneath the forms. Energy is formless, but usually manifests itself through forms. To my mind, eliminating or modifying form does not create energy or even necessarily reveal its presence, and so I have never been attracted by those who advocate doing away with form practice in search of "formless Tai Chi." There are advantages to such approaches, but I do not think this is one of them.
Similary, for me, making the form into "one posture" is not about eliminating the boundaries between postures, but about directly feeling an organic wholeness, perceiving the larger units that make up the form, and perceiving rhythms and shapes that persist across groups of postures. In other words, I do not want to blur the boundaries between ebbs and flows, but want to perceive their interdependence. Each note of the scale is at once itself, but also part of a greater whole.
Does this make sense?
Take care,
Audi
I think your idea is a good one, but I don't think it quite addresses my issue. My problem is not how to be continuous, but rather how to be internally continuous while still punctuating the end of each named posture. In other words, how does one show a "pause" and yet not stop internally?
I think the reason for the pause is to train oneself to feel the natural limits of a particular structure. For me, it is not an arbitrary stopping point, but a product of the various flows of energy guided by my mind reaching a equilibrium that focuses the energy to a particular maximum. If I eliminate the maximum, it is much easier to flow, but then I question whether I really learn to calibrate the posture movements correctly.
If you never pull the bow to the maximum, do you really learn how you need to initiate the pull in the first place? Can you be sure you have taken the best path for a journey if you abandon it before getting all the way to the destination?
Even with a sense of opponent, the question still arises as to where to visualize the change from "offense" to "defense." How soon do you see or "feel" the opponent's neutralization. In the case of the punch, when does the opponent grab?
In doing form, I would say that I follow through in postures long after I would normally try to initiate a change in push hands. I think the rhythm of neutralization the form prescribes would be quite challenging with a real partner/opponent.
For me, being formless does not have so much to do with changing my forms as in seeing clearly the principles beneath the forms. Energy is formless, but usually manifests itself through forms. To my mind, eliminating or modifying form does not create energy or even necessarily reveal its presence, and so I have never been attracted by those who advocate doing away with form practice in search of "formless Tai Chi." There are advantages to such approaches, but I do not think this is one of them.
Similary, for me, making the form into "one posture" is not about eliminating the boundaries between postures, but about directly feeling an organic wholeness, perceiving the larger units that make up the form, and perceiving rhythms and shapes that persist across groups of postures. In other words, I do not want to blur the boundaries between ebbs and flows, but want to perceive their interdependence. Each note of the scale is at once itself, but also part of a greater whole.
Does this make sense?
Take care,
Audi
Audi,
Hmmmm..........
Yes. It does make sense. I can see what you are speaking of, now.
Hmmm......
Oh, I said that.
The "pause".
This is not a concept I understand completely, or even incompletely. Like you I have striven to understand not only the execution of the pause but it's purpose. I have yet to find a clear explanation that covers either, much less both.
On the face of it, "pausing" seems to fly in the face of a lot of what is read in the classics. However, looking beyond the surface I can see no clear reason why it should, and I have complete faith in the ability of MYJ to see that our method of practice does not do this.
I will address one question you asked while I consider on the greater whole of the concept of "pausing":
"Even with a sense of opponent, the question still arises as to where to visualize the change from "offense" to "defense." How soon do you see or "feel" the opponent's neutralization. In the case of the punch, when does the opponent grab?"
In visualizing this scenario, or any other, I make sure to change it up. Now, whether this is a best practice for all, I don't know. For me, I change the timing, and placement, of the "grab" from my opponent.
I'll go further.
I change my opponent.
Often.
The reason is that I don't wish to become stagnant and focus on one time for that grab, or one placement, or even one angle reflecting the height of my opponent. I want to keep that fluid, changing, different all the time.
Rather than conceive of just one faceless, or faced if you so desire, opponent, I feel it best to change that around and conceive of multiple personas, all of a different height, weight, structure, strength, level of aggressiveness, level of skill... etc, etc.
In this way, I do not become stuck on only one way to perform this move, one way to counter a pull or a grab or a push, whatever.
I do this for the entire form. I choose two opponents from my lexicon of imaginary friends, two are required for the forms where the "intent" is to throw an opponent out so they can be replaced by their buddy in my imaginings to begin the next movement. Each time I attempt to pick a different set of personas to use for my imagry. In this way I can change it up and keep things different enough each time to make the practice fresh.
As to the question of the "pause"...
I have no real insight into this practice to share. I can, have and often do practice in this fashion. However, I have yet to understand the concept clearly.
Previously, I believed it only necessary to train for continuity, that pushing the boundries of forms was what single form training was for and long form training was for continuity.
Recently, I have seen MYJ practice in the fashion you describe at the seminar and even more recently on the DVD. His pauses are clear and concise. Following his lead, as I have no doubt whatsoever that he knows of what he speaks and shows, I have begun to search for meaning in this practice of pausing, without finding any yet.
I shall contemplate on your words regarding this type of practice, and give it whirl with your words in mind. If I have any insights, I'll be sure to report them for critique.
I agree with your insight into form vs. push hands timing. In form practice you push the envelope of the meaning of the form. In push hands you respond to your opponents changes in the most appropriate way possible, and in the least amount of time.
The one will lead to a greater understanding of the other.
I was not trying to advocate a general move to "formlessness" by anyone in my earlier post. Not at all. I was trying to find, for myself at least, a clearer and maybe different definition of the meaning of "formlessness".
One definition that seems logical to me, though why logic should have anything to do with it I have NO idea, could be that of moving beyond the idea of practicing with the intent of "do a form, stop, check it out, do a form, stop, check it out, do a form, stop, check it out..."
I was instead feilding a viewpoint I thought of recently. My idea was that by removing the mental barriers we tend to put between the forms and working on making the entire group of individual forms that comprise "the long form" into one whole, cohesive "long form" in both our execution and intent, that this might, possibly, maybe, be one definition of moving into "formlessness", or at least the beginnings of it.
Rather than perform or even conceptualize the long form as a collection of smaller units of movement combined into one series with breaks, stopping, pauses, we perform one continuous movement with no breaks, no stopping points, no pauses being possible or necessary.
In this way, we could begin to see the idea of "formlessness" from the viewpoint that we're doing only one form that flows continuously from beginning to end rather than a broken up collection of smaller forms run together.
Or not.
That is what I was asking.
OK. I'm going to shut up now, and go and practice some "pausing" with your words and intent in mind. Maybe I'll find some clarity on the concept.
If not, at least I'll have gotten in some practice.
Please, Audi, everyone,
Critique away at this concept. Give your concepts to me. Let's work on the idea together.
Tell me where I'm wrong, in your opinion, and why.
I look forward to and encourage this.
Hey, I'm PROBABLY all screwed up in the head about the concept. I accept that.
Understanding changes as we learn and grow. Sometimes that understanding is unclear, sometimes it's even downright incorrect.
If this is the case for my particular theory, by all means TELL ME.
But tell me why, too.
Off to practice.
Bob
Hmmmm..........
Yes. It does make sense. I can see what you are speaking of, now.
Hmmm......
Oh, I said that.
The "pause".
This is not a concept I understand completely, or even incompletely. Like you I have striven to understand not only the execution of the pause but it's purpose. I have yet to find a clear explanation that covers either, much less both.
On the face of it, "pausing" seems to fly in the face of a lot of what is read in the classics. However, looking beyond the surface I can see no clear reason why it should, and I have complete faith in the ability of MYJ to see that our method of practice does not do this.
I will address one question you asked while I consider on the greater whole of the concept of "pausing":
"Even with a sense of opponent, the question still arises as to where to visualize the change from "offense" to "defense." How soon do you see or "feel" the opponent's neutralization. In the case of the punch, when does the opponent grab?"
In visualizing this scenario, or any other, I make sure to change it up. Now, whether this is a best practice for all, I don't know. For me, I change the timing, and placement, of the "grab" from my opponent.
I'll go further.
I change my opponent.
Often.
The reason is that I don't wish to become stagnant and focus on one time for that grab, or one placement, or even one angle reflecting the height of my opponent. I want to keep that fluid, changing, different all the time.
Rather than conceive of just one faceless, or faced if you so desire, opponent, I feel it best to change that around and conceive of multiple personas, all of a different height, weight, structure, strength, level of aggressiveness, level of skill... etc, etc.
In this way, I do not become stuck on only one way to perform this move, one way to counter a pull or a grab or a push, whatever.
I do this for the entire form. I choose two opponents from my lexicon of imaginary friends, two are required for the forms where the "intent" is to throw an opponent out so they can be replaced by their buddy in my imaginings to begin the next movement. Each time I attempt to pick a different set of personas to use for my imagry. In this way I can change it up and keep things different enough each time to make the practice fresh.
As to the question of the "pause"...
I have no real insight into this practice to share. I can, have and often do practice in this fashion. However, I have yet to understand the concept clearly.
Previously, I believed it only necessary to train for continuity, that pushing the boundries of forms was what single form training was for and long form training was for continuity.
Recently, I have seen MYJ practice in the fashion you describe at the seminar and even more recently on the DVD. His pauses are clear and concise. Following his lead, as I have no doubt whatsoever that he knows of what he speaks and shows, I have begun to search for meaning in this practice of pausing, without finding any yet.
I shall contemplate on your words regarding this type of practice, and give it whirl with your words in mind. If I have any insights, I'll be sure to report them for critique.
I agree with your insight into form vs. push hands timing. In form practice you push the envelope of the meaning of the form. In push hands you respond to your opponents changes in the most appropriate way possible, and in the least amount of time.
The one will lead to a greater understanding of the other.
I was not trying to advocate a general move to "formlessness" by anyone in my earlier post. Not at all. I was trying to find, for myself at least, a clearer and maybe different definition of the meaning of "formlessness".
One definition that seems logical to me, though why logic should have anything to do with it I have NO idea, could be that of moving beyond the idea of practicing with the intent of "do a form, stop, check it out, do a form, stop, check it out, do a form, stop, check it out..."
I was instead feilding a viewpoint I thought of recently. My idea was that by removing the mental barriers we tend to put between the forms and working on making the entire group of individual forms that comprise "the long form" into one whole, cohesive "long form" in both our execution and intent, that this might, possibly, maybe, be one definition of moving into "formlessness", or at least the beginnings of it.
Rather than perform or even conceptualize the long form as a collection of smaller units of movement combined into one series with breaks, stopping, pauses, we perform one continuous movement with no breaks, no stopping points, no pauses being possible or necessary.
In this way, we could begin to see the idea of "formlessness" from the viewpoint that we're doing only one form that flows continuously from beginning to end rather than a broken up collection of smaller forms run together.
Or not.
That is what I was asking.
OK. I'm going to shut up now, and go and practice some "pausing" with your words and intent in mind. Maybe I'll find some clarity on the concept.
If not, at least I'll have gotten in some practice.
Please, Audi, everyone,
Critique away at this concept. Give your concepts to me. Let's work on the idea together.
Tell me where I'm wrong, in your opinion, and why.
I look forward to and encourage this.
Hey, I'm PROBABLY all screwed up in the head about the concept. I accept that.
Understanding changes as we learn and grow. Sometimes that understanding is unclear, sometimes it's even downright incorrect.
If this is the case for my particular theory, by all means TELL ME.
But tell me why, too.
Off to practice.
Bob
From Cheefatt: "Occasionally I do purposely engage in seemingly broken form, physical movement that is. At the end of each posture, physical movements become very minute and undetectable by untrained eyes. The emphasize is on extending Yi, chi and all relevant jin. Internally I am still flowing from one posture to another but externally observer may thought there is break between posture…, I would continue to sink very subtly and extend my yi leading chi and jin to continue to expand.…"
The following may be a useful analogy that I think fits well with the above quoted comments. Although I am not very experienced in Chinese brushwork, I hope that what follows is accurate (let me know if it is not).
In classical Chinese brushwork, writing more complex strokes that involve changes in direction seems similar to the "pauses" in the Taijiquan form. The brush does not really stop, but does "sink" or increase in pressure on the paper prior to continuing in the new direction. Yet throughout this "pause" the intent (yi) to complete the stroke is never lost, nor is the relationship to all the other strokes that make up the character ever abandoned. Even when lifting from the paper to make another brushstroke the connection to the next stroke remains clear for skilled calligraphers. Even though there may not be physical evidence of ink on paper to show this connection between brushstrokes (unless we start talking about running script…), this connection is fairly clear to knowledgeable observers of the final written character.
In my own practice I have been focusing on relaxing the Kua (Song Kua) after issuing energy, which results in a somewhat sinking energy which also naturally seems to start the motion for the subsequent movement.
DP
The following may be a useful analogy that I think fits well with the above quoted comments. Although I am not very experienced in Chinese brushwork, I hope that what follows is accurate (let me know if it is not).
In classical Chinese brushwork, writing more complex strokes that involve changes in direction seems similar to the "pauses" in the Taijiquan form. The brush does not really stop, but does "sink" or increase in pressure on the paper prior to continuing in the new direction. Yet throughout this "pause" the intent (yi) to complete the stroke is never lost, nor is the relationship to all the other strokes that make up the character ever abandoned. Even when lifting from the paper to make another brushstroke the connection to the next stroke remains clear for skilled calligraphers. Even though there may not be physical evidence of ink on paper to show this connection between brushstrokes (unless we start talking about running script…), this connection is fairly clear to knowledgeable observers of the final written character.
In my own practice I have been focusing on relaxing the Kua (Song Kua) after issuing energy, which results in a somewhat sinking energy which also naturally seems to start the motion for the subsequent movement.
DP
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Kalamondin
- Posts: 309
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 7:01 am
Hi Cheefatt,
Can you please explain more about "expanding [your] pung jin sphere?" I would like to hear more about this. Can you describe more about it? I have begun some explorations that may be similar and would like to learn more.
Thank you!
Kal
PS, Bob, I'll write a bit about my understanding of pauses later, but I'm off to lunch now. Ciao!
Can you please explain more about "expanding [your] pung jin sphere?" I would like to hear more about this. Can you describe more about it? I have begun some explorations that may be similar and would like to learn more.
Thank you!
Kal
PS, Bob, I'll write a bit about my understanding of pauses later, but I'm off to lunch now. Ciao!
-
Kalamondin
- Posts: 309
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 7:01 am
Hi Everyone,
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
On the other hand, Yang Zhenduo and Yang Jun emphasize, perhaps even more than other similar teachers, that each movement should have a definite endpoint. We probably show more of an external pause between postures than many other “schools.” The problem is How do we pause and still respect continuity?
I have asked about this difficulty and have been told that the issue is not so much about the duration or timing of the external pause, as about showing internal continuity of intent. </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, the duration and timing of my external pauses changes quite radically depending on how fast or slow I’m doing the form—not because of the external speed, but because the internal rhythm dictates how long the pause is.
So what is the pause? My sense of it is that it’s the changing point around which/within which energy shifts from yin to yang. Maybe some of you have heard these analogies before: a child on a swing reaches the farthest upward point in their swing and seems to hang suspended in the air for a moment before coming down again. Or a ball thrown into the air seems to slow as it reaches the apex of its curve, then stop briefly before coming down again. Or an ocean wave, rushing up the shore seems to slow and stop before gathering speed to rush back out again. But if you look at a wave closely, right at the point where it changes, you’ll see the grains of sand moving in two directions at once, both toward the shore and toward the sea (or you see turbulence, but I don’t know how that factors in here). The outward motion (visible when you stand and look at a wave from some distance) seems to stop or pause, but the internal motion of a wave (visible if you are very close to it) is very active.
So the pause, to me, feels like slowing slightly. No, that’s a bad description—inside, it feels like the same speed, but because some things are flowing out and some things have turned around to flow back in, it feels like the same amount of activity as a big sweeping arm movement only contained in a tiny space. So externally, the motion seems to slow and pause, but internally there’s a sense of cycling activity.
I like the juxtaposition in Yang style between large, open, sweeping circular movements and very small circular internal transitions.
OK, I’ll take a stab at the transition between “DDPP” and Apparent Closure. I tried to do it your way, with the feeling of recoil back in towards the body…but for me, the feeling was that there was too much emphasis on the right side of the body. There’s also the suggestion that we avoid straight forward-back movements. I don’t know if I can help you out with fa jing followed by extension rather than contraction—it does seem to break the rules, but I have an idea. I’ll describe what I do and maybe you can extract something useful (because I’m not so good at distillation).
When I do this movement, I’m focused on driving the right fist with my waist turning counter clockwise. At the end point of Punch my contraction point isn’t at the fist recoiling, but at the left hip, which continues to make a tiny, tiny circle left then back (the beginning of Apparent Closure). In Punch, as the right side of the hip moves forward, the left can later move back for Apparent Closure. If my right side (fist) is full, then the left side (hip) can empty. When my left hip circles slightly to the left, then the right fist can extend more forward and open before it circles back. I still feel like the fist gets to relax back towards the body after the fa point—but it happens in the next movement and it’s the left hip that starts the cycle of relaxed contraction.
This is a tricky distinction and I don’t fully understand it yet. I may change my mind in a few years. You pose many interesting questions and trying to puzzle them out is definitely pushing my practice forward—thanks.
Kal
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
On the other hand, Yang Zhenduo and Yang Jun emphasize, perhaps even more than other similar teachers, that each movement should have a definite endpoint. We probably show more of an external pause between postures than many other “schools.” The problem is How do we pause and still respect continuity?
I have asked about this difficulty and have been told that the issue is not so much about the duration or timing of the external pause, as about showing internal continuity of intent. </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, the duration and timing of my external pauses changes quite radically depending on how fast or slow I’m doing the form—not because of the external speed, but because the internal rhythm dictates how long the pause is.
So what is the pause? My sense of it is that it’s the changing point around which/within which energy shifts from yin to yang. Maybe some of you have heard these analogies before: a child on a swing reaches the farthest upward point in their swing and seems to hang suspended in the air for a moment before coming down again. Or a ball thrown into the air seems to slow as it reaches the apex of its curve, then stop briefly before coming down again. Or an ocean wave, rushing up the shore seems to slow and stop before gathering speed to rush back out again. But if you look at a wave closely, right at the point where it changes, you’ll see the grains of sand moving in two directions at once, both toward the shore and toward the sea (or you see turbulence, but I don’t know how that factors in here). The outward motion (visible when you stand and look at a wave from some distance) seems to stop or pause, but the internal motion of a wave (visible if you are very close to it) is very active.
So the pause, to me, feels like slowing slightly. No, that’s a bad description—inside, it feels like the same speed, but because some things are flowing out and some things have turned around to flow back in, it feels like the same amount of activity as a big sweeping arm movement only contained in a tiny space. So externally, the motion seems to slow and pause, but internally there’s a sense of cycling activity.
Good point. I think that taking the postures in the Yang form to their maximum (full extension of both the external form and the internal intent) is a way to generate a pause that is active instead of stagnant. I mentioned elsewhere that if I released the energy/intent of a movement completely, that it seemed to naturally cycle into the next movement, but that if I didn’t finish the movement, that the resulting transitions, while outwardly looking the same, felt internally tight or stagnant. I think that if these stagnant transitions were compared to the yin-yang diagram, it would be like trying to switch from one to the other in the middle of the cycle instead of at the extreme end. It’s easy to switch at the extreme. In the middle it gets muddled and stagnant if you try to switch from one thing to another…which might be why people end up developing more flowing versions. I think this allows the transition circles to be larger, perhaps easier to train, and the switch from yin to yang is less abrupt, but also less extreme.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> If you never pull the bow to the maximum, do you really learn how you need to initiate the pull in the first place? Can you be sure you have taken the best path for a journey if you abandon it before getting all the way to the destination? </font>
I like the juxtaposition in Yang style between large, open, sweeping circular movements and very small circular internal transitions.
OK, I’ll take a stab at the transition between “DDPP” and Apparent Closure. I tried to do it your way, with the feeling of recoil back in towards the body…but for me, the feeling was that there was too much emphasis on the right side of the body. There’s also the suggestion that we avoid straight forward-back movements. I don’t know if I can help you out with fa jing followed by extension rather than contraction—it does seem to break the rules, but I have an idea. I’ll describe what I do and maybe you can extract something useful (because I’m not so good at distillation).
When I do this movement, I’m focused on driving the right fist with my waist turning counter clockwise. At the end point of Punch my contraction point isn’t at the fist recoiling, but at the left hip, which continues to make a tiny, tiny circle left then back (the beginning of Apparent Closure). In Punch, as the right side of the hip moves forward, the left can later move back for Apparent Closure. If my right side (fist) is full, then the left side (hip) can empty. When my left hip circles slightly to the left, then the right fist can extend more forward and open before it circles back. I still feel like the fist gets to relax back towards the body after the fa point—but it happens in the next movement and it’s the left hip that starts the cycle of relaxed contraction.
This is a tricky distinction and I don’t fully understand it yet. I may change my mind in a few years. You pose many interesting questions and trying to puzzle them out is definitely pushing my practice forward—thanks.
I agree. Well said.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> I think the “Taiji” of Taijiquan implies an inherent oneness in dualism that must be ever present. I also think that an aspect of Zhong Ding (“central equilibrium” or “settling on what is central”) implies an indifference to right and left, beginning and end, etc. that both encapsulates all extremes and denies their independent relevance. </font>
Kal
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Kalamondin
- Posts: 309
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 7:01 am
Hi Bob,
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>One complete, threaded, continuous movement from beginning to end with no places to stop, no beginnings and no endings.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I like it. I try to do it this way sometimes. Shifting my perspective to trying to do the whole form, unbroken and continuous, really helps me see the places where there is discontinuity.
I think you are mindful of this, but for others reading who want to try this, I still think it's important finish each movement to its discrete endpoint and not allow the form to fade into formlessness _externally_. I'm not sure what will happen eventually internally. But in the "continuous" version the external form should still be just as expanded as a "choppier" movement by movement verison, complete with pauses at end postures.
It raises an interesting question though: what is formlessness?
Is it completing a form without stopping? Is it the moments within each movement, each a part reflecting the whole? Is it the ability to use any energy at any time without sticking to the external forms? Is it melting into the form until there is no difference between you and the form? Is it accessing a liminal space of infinite possibility? Is formlessness the same thing as the void? If not, what's the difference?
OK. Must. Stop. Now. Head. Hurts.
Kal
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>One complete, threaded, continuous movement from beginning to end with no places to stop, no beginnings and no endings.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I like it. I try to do it this way sometimes. Shifting my perspective to trying to do the whole form, unbroken and continuous, really helps me see the places where there is discontinuity.
I think you are mindful of this, but for others reading who want to try this, I still think it's important finish each movement to its discrete endpoint and not allow the form to fade into formlessness _externally_. I'm not sure what will happen eventually internally. But in the "continuous" version the external form should still be just as expanded as a "choppier" movement by movement verison, complete with pauses at end postures.
It raises an interesting question though: what is formlessness?
Is it completing a form without stopping? Is it the moments within each movement, each a part reflecting the whole? Is it the ability to use any energy at any time without sticking to the external forms? Is it melting into the form until there is no difference between you and the form? Is it accessing a liminal space of infinite possibility? Is formlessness the same thing as the void? If not, what's the difference?
OK. Must. Stop. Now. Head. Hurts.
Kal
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cheefatt taichi
- Posts: 59
- Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 6:01 am
[QUOTE]In classical Chinese brushwork, writing more complex strokes that involve changes in direction seems similar to the "pauses" in the Taijiquan form. The brush does not really stop, but does "sink" or increase in pressure on the paper prior to continuing in the new direction. Yet throughout this "pause" the intent (yi) to complete the stroke is never lost, nor is the relationship to all the other strokes that make up the character ever abandoned. Even when lifting from the paper to make another brushstroke the connection to the next stroke remains clear for skilled calligraphers. Even though there may not be physical evidence of ink on paper to show this connection between brushstrokes. [QUOTE]
Greeting all,
Very nicely and beautifully put DP. I've never thought of the calligraphy analogy, thanks pal. If I remember rightly, Cheng Man Cheng did mentioned their similarities somewhere.
[Quote]Can you please explain more about "expanding [your] peng jin sphere?" I would like to hear more about this.[quote]
Hi Kal, expanding peng jin sphere to me is like when a stone is throw into a pond, circular water waves will be created and expanding outwards from the center where the stone first hit the water surface. This center is the posture and ballooning outward waves are neijin. I would visualize my neijin ballooning outwards emcompassing the posture from dantien. The expanding of sphere enable me to not over or underextent physically which is very possible if the visualization is single dimension i.e horizontaly outwards. Imaging when a ballon is inflated, it will expand proportionately in all directions but maintains its center, it will never over or underextend so to speak. Training this way enables me to fajin with very little physical movements and an intact center thought forces sent out are great...you may equal this kind of fajin as bom exploding than shouting a canon which is single dimension.
I hope I can convey the idea across...if not let me spend more time putting it on words later. Thanks friends.
Greeting all,
Very nicely and beautifully put DP. I've never thought of the calligraphy analogy, thanks pal. If I remember rightly, Cheng Man Cheng did mentioned their similarities somewhere.
[Quote]Can you please explain more about "expanding [your] peng jin sphere?" I would like to hear more about this.[quote]
Hi Kal, expanding peng jin sphere to me is like when a stone is throw into a pond, circular water waves will be created and expanding outwards from the center where the stone first hit the water surface. This center is the posture and ballooning outward waves are neijin. I would visualize my neijin ballooning outwards emcompassing the posture from dantien. The expanding of sphere enable me to not over or underextent physically which is very possible if the visualization is single dimension i.e horizontaly outwards. Imaging when a ballon is inflated, it will expand proportionately in all directions but maintains its center, it will never over or underextend so to speak. Training this way enables me to fajin with very little physical movements and an intact center thought forces sent out are great...you may equal this kind of fajin as bom exploding than shouting a canon which is single dimension.
I hope I can convey the idea across...if not let me spend more time putting it on words later. Thanks friends.
Kal,
These quotes are actually from your reply to Audi, but they went, for me, right to the heart of my question.
"So what is the pause? My sense of it is that it’s the changing point around which/within which energy shifts from yin to yang. Maybe some of you have heard these analogies before: a child on a swing reaches the farthest upward point in their swing and seems to hang suspended in the air for a moment before coming down again."
And
"Or an ocean wave, rushing up the shore seems to slow and stop before gathering speed to rush back out again. But if you look at a wave closely, right at the point where it changes, you’ll see the grains of sand moving in two directions at once, both toward the shore and toward the sea.."
Now these are some analogies I can sink my teeth into.
I, at least, have NOT heard these analogies applied to TCC from training before.
These statements REALLY opened my eyes to some possibilities about "pausing" but "not pausing" that had never occurred to me before.
It's funny, because at our practice last night one of the students said something that goes right to the heart of the matter.
He said something along the lines of, "It really helps to have more than one teacher. Sometimes Bill says something and I don't understand, but then when I come here and you show the same thing, only in slightly different words and a slightly different way, I pick it right up. Sometimes it works the other way and I'll get something from him right off that you had tried to show me before and I didn't grasp."
Something to that effect, anyway.
I know just what he meant. I was mangling up a portion of the sword form for the past year. OK, more than one, but I digress... Just could NOT comprehend how that motion worked despite numerous attempts by Bill, the best teacher I've ever met, to teach it to me correctly, my one time learning the the movment from MYJ at the seminar last year and also literally days in front of the sword DVD that the GM and MYJ put out a while back, going over and over this move to no avail.
I just could not seem to grasp the idea in the proper way.
At a demonstration that the Kentucky Yang Cheng Fu Center put on at a local fair this past spring, Carl Meeks watched Bill futiley trying to get me to comprehend this movement. After a short time Bill was called away and Carl stepped up to try and show me.
Took him five minutes to get me through that form. Probably less.
Why? Why should Bill, the guy I train with about once a week, have been doing so for over three years, not be able to show me this move but Carl steps in and "bingo!" I'm there in no time.
I think the guy last night hit it right on the head...
Different words.
He explained the same concept in a slightly different way, a way that for some reason just went right to the heart of the issue for me and suddenly my mind and body melded together and I could make that funny little back flip of the blade go right where it was supposed to, in the proper manner, tassle flipping and all.
So it seems to be with your words about the "pause". I read what you said, ran into the cubby I practice in here at work, and suddenly it started to make sense to me.
I guess what I'm trying to say is...
AHA!!!!!!!!!
And, THANK YOU.
All at once.
These analogies (geesh I hope I've been spelling that right?) went to the heart of the issue for me as I can comprehend it right now and I've begun a slow descent into the concept.
I have no great insights at this time. I'm just now in the "Aha moment" as Bill likes to call it, and will have to formulate my thougts with time.
But at least now I have some tangible thoughts and a very beginning feel for the concept.
Better get some work done so I can sneak back off in a bit for some more practice on this.
Thanks.
Bob
[This message has been edited by Bamenwubu (edited 07-07-2005).]
These quotes are actually from your reply to Audi, but they went, for me, right to the heart of my question.
"So what is the pause? My sense of it is that it’s the changing point around which/within which energy shifts from yin to yang. Maybe some of you have heard these analogies before: a child on a swing reaches the farthest upward point in their swing and seems to hang suspended in the air for a moment before coming down again."
And
"Or an ocean wave, rushing up the shore seems to slow and stop before gathering speed to rush back out again. But if you look at a wave closely, right at the point where it changes, you’ll see the grains of sand moving in two directions at once, both toward the shore and toward the sea.."
Now these are some analogies I can sink my teeth into.
I, at least, have NOT heard these analogies applied to TCC from training before.
These statements REALLY opened my eyes to some possibilities about "pausing" but "not pausing" that had never occurred to me before.
It's funny, because at our practice last night one of the students said something that goes right to the heart of the matter.
He said something along the lines of, "It really helps to have more than one teacher. Sometimes Bill says something and I don't understand, but then when I come here and you show the same thing, only in slightly different words and a slightly different way, I pick it right up. Sometimes it works the other way and I'll get something from him right off that you had tried to show me before and I didn't grasp."
Something to that effect, anyway.
I know just what he meant. I was mangling up a portion of the sword form for the past year. OK, more than one, but I digress... Just could NOT comprehend how that motion worked despite numerous attempts by Bill, the best teacher I've ever met, to teach it to me correctly, my one time learning the the movment from MYJ at the seminar last year and also literally days in front of the sword DVD that the GM and MYJ put out a while back, going over and over this move to no avail.
I just could not seem to grasp the idea in the proper way.
At a demonstration that the Kentucky Yang Cheng Fu Center put on at a local fair this past spring, Carl Meeks watched Bill futiley trying to get me to comprehend this movement. After a short time Bill was called away and Carl stepped up to try and show me.
Took him five minutes to get me through that form. Probably less.
Why? Why should Bill, the guy I train with about once a week, have been doing so for over three years, not be able to show me this move but Carl steps in and "bingo!" I'm there in no time.
I think the guy last night hit it right on the head...
Different words.
He explained the same concept in a slightly different way, a way that for some reason just went right to the heart of the issue for me and suddenly my mind and body melded together and I could make that funny little back flip of the blade go right where it was supposed to, in the proper manner, tassle flipping and all.
So it seems to be with your words about the "pause". I read what you said, ran into the cubby I practice in here at work, and suddenly it started to make sense to me.
I guess what I'm trying to say is...
AHA!!!!!!!!!
And, THANK YOU.
All at once.
These analogies (geesh I hope I've been spelling that right?) went to the heart of the issue for me as I can comprehend it right now and I've begun a slow descent into the concept.
I have no great insights at this time. I'm just now in the "Aha moment" as Bill likes to call it, and will have to formulate my thougts with time.
But at least now I have some tangible thoughts and a very beginning feel for the concept.
Better get some work done so I can sneak back off in a bit for some more practice on this.
Thanks.
Bob
[This message has been edited by Bamenwubu (edited 07-07-2005).]
-
Kalamondin
- Posts: 309
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 7:01 am
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
Hi Kal, expanding peng jin sphere to me is like when a stone is throw into a pond, circular water waves will be created and expanding outwards from the center where the stone first hit the water surface. This center is the posture and ballooning outward waves are neijin. I would visualize my neijin ballooning outwards emcompassing the posture from dantien. The expanding of sphere enable me to not over or underextent physically which is very possible if the visualization is single dimension i.e horizontaly outwards. Imaging when a ballon is inflated, it will expand proportionately in all directions but maintains its center, it will never over or underextend so to speak. Training this way enables me to fajin with very little physical movements and an intact center thought forces sent out are great...you may equal this kind of fajin as bom exploding than shouting a canon which is single dimension.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi CheeFatt,
Thanks very much for that explanation. It’s really interesting and helpful, particularly the parts about not over- or under-extending. I’m starting to understand pung jin this way—like a balloon expanding from the dantien. But I’m wondering this: is this balloon feeling contained only within the physical body like a balloon animal where the skin is the edge (see teddy bear picture here): http://balloonguy.com/Who.html , or does the sense of the pung jin sphere extend beyond the physical edges of the body like, well, the shape of a balloon or a sphere?
Thanks also for the description of how this helps with fajin—particularly the bomb vs. cannon analogy. I wondered if it was something like that, but my “balloon” is still lumpy from areas of tension I have not yet dissolved so I have not yet had much success. I will keep working on it.
Thanks for the pointers,
Kal
Hi Kal, expanding peng jin sphere to me is like when a stone is throw into a pond, circular water waves will be created and expanding outwards from the center where the stone first hit the water surface. This center is the posture and ballooning outward waves are neijin. I would visualize my neijin ballooning outwards emcompassing the posture from dantien. The expanding of sphere enable me to not over or underextent physically which is very possible if the visualization is single dimension i.e horizontaly outwards. Imaging when a ballon is inflated, it will expand proportionately in all directions but maintains its center, it will never over or underextend so to speak. Training this way enables me to fajin with very little physical movements and an intact center thought forces sent out are great...you may equal this kind of fajin as bom exploding than shouting a canon which is single dimension.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi CheeFatt,
Thanks very much for that explanation. It’s really interesting and helpful, particularly the parts about not over- or under-extending. I’m starting to understand pung jin this way—like a balloon expanding from the dantien. But I’m wondering this: is this balloon feeling contained only within the physical body like a balloon animal where the skin is the edge (see teddy bear picture here): http://balloonguy.com/Who.html , or does the sense of the pung jin sphere extend beyond the physical edges of the body like, well, the shape of a balloon or a sphere?
Thanks also for the description of how this helps with fajin—particularly the bomb vs. cannon analogy. I wondered if it was something like that, but my “balloon” is still lumpy from areas of tension I have not yet dissolved so I have not yet had much success. I will keep working on it.
Thanks for the pointers,
Kal
-
Kalamondin
- Posts: 309
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 7:01 am
Hi Bob,
You're welcome! I'm glad my analogies worked for you...not sure they were mine though. Maybe one. My mind is definitely not a steel trap! It's more like a mountain lake with different streams feeding it--then everything mixes together and I can't tell any longer where things originated.
Happy practicing,
Kal
You're welcome! I'm glad my analogies worked for you...not sure they were mine though. Maybe one. My mind is definitely not a steel trap! It's more like a mountain lake with different streams feeding it--then everything mixes together and I can't tell any longer where things originated.
Happy practicing,
Kal
-
cheefatt taichi
- Posts: 59
- Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 6:01 am
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> I’m wondering this: is this balloon feeling contained only within the physical body like a balloon animal where the skin is the edge or does the sense of the pung jin sphere extend beyond the physical edges of the body like, well, the shape of a balloon or a sphere?
Kal[/B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It depends on the application. If you are using pengjin to absorb a push (i.e holding the posture and correct body alignment via subtle force)for example, pengjin should be contained within the posture or slightly smaller than the posture to allow absorbing. The closer its diameter to dantian the stronger it gets just like an analogy of a spring.
However, if the intention is to attack, pengjin should expand beyond the body but still spherical to ensure no eventness and no excess. You may imaging an explosion in slow motion, its energy does not travel in linear but an expansion of sphere or round. This way no matter how strong you exert your force outward (upward) against your opponent, he will not be able to counter with `chai jin' because there is no excess or overextend to one direction. When you practice this manner, it will be good to pay attention to the sinking of kua too.
Single dimension jin also result in what is commonly described as double weight. Happy training friends.
Kal[/B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It depends on the application. If you are using pengjin to absorb a push (i.e holding the posture and correct body alignment via subtle force)for example, pengjin should be contained within the posture or slightly smaller than the posture to allow absorbing. The closer its diameter to dantian the stronger it gets just like an analogy of a spring.
However, if the intention is to attack, pengjin should expand beyond the body but still spherical to ensure no eventness and no excess. You may imaging an explosion in slow motion, its energy does not travel in linear but an expansion of sphere or round. This way no matter how strong you exert your force outward (upward) against your opponent, he will not be able to counter with `chai jin' because there is no excess or overextend to one direction. When you practice this manner, it will be good to pay attention to the sinking of kua too.
Single dimension jin also result in what is commonly described as double weight. Happy training friends.
Kal, Audi,
I have been working on the concept for the last few days of pausing but not pausing.
Since my initial "aha moment" I have found some mental comfort, at least, with the concept. While I'm 100% confident that I don't have the concept correct in my own mind or body, I at least have begun to work on the idea of it and am trying to put it into my form practice.
I find that the analogy of a wave reaching the beach, breaking, then falling back into the ocean to be the one that feels most correct at this time, for me. I can really get a feel for pausing on the outside but continuing the transition on the inside from this mental picture. More so than a swing or any other analogy I've tried to come up with, a pendulum for instance.
I think it's my love for all things beach related that probably makes this more of an effective image for me than any other at this time.
I have spent some considerable amount of time in front of MYJ's DVD, observing many things but lately paying particular attention to his "pause" at the end of each form and doing my best to figure this out.
Has anyone any other advice for me on this quest for "pausing without pausing" during form practice? I'm really very interested in this practice and anything anyone thinks might help me to obtain a greater understanding would be helpful and much appreciated.
I still have a hard time reconciling this practice with the principle of unbroken, continuous movement, but with the help of the wave image I've been able to overcome a lot of my original feeling of "this is just wrong" and am beginning to move past it and am even starting to feel some improvements in my foundation work, my foot work, due to this.
I find I am now much more aware of where my feet are in relation to my upper body when I pay attention to this "pause". I seem to be more conscious of my entire frame and how correctly I am oriented for the "end" of each posture. Thinking more clearly of the entire body to gauge when to pause but not pause seems to put my intention more clearly into what I'm doing right now, giving me a much more clear idea of the moement. Instead of setting up for the next movement, I am more clearly focused on the one I'm "completing" and this has given me more stability in my stances.
Or so it seems at first blush.
I'm still working on this idea, but if I even only ever get that much out of the concept I feel it is effort well worth the time.
Anyone else have a similar experience with this? Am I deluding myself, or is this part of idea of "pause but don't pause" as the Yang family are practicing it?
Thanks for all the help so far. Looking forward to learning and exploring more about this and any other topic of Yang family TCC with you all.
I have been working on the concept for the last few days of pausing but not pausing.
Since my initial "aha moment" I have found some mental comfort, at least, with the concept. While I'm 100% confident that I don't have the concept correct in my own mind or body, I at least have begun to work on the idea of it and am trying to put it into my form practice.
I find that the analogy of a wave reaching the beach, breaking, then falling back into the ocean to be the one that feels most correct at this time, for me. I can really get a feel for pausing on the outside but continuing the transition on the inside from this mental picture. More so than a swing or any other analogy I've tried to come up with, a pendulum for instance.
I think it's my love for all things beach related that probably makes this more of an effective image for me than any other at this time.
I have spent some considerable amount of time in front of MYJ's DVD, observing many things but lately paying particular attention to his "pause" at the end of each form and doing my best to figure this out.
Has anyone any other advice for me on this quest for "pausing without pausing" during form practice? I'm really very interested in this practice and anything anyone thinks might help me to obtain a greater understanding would be helpful and much appreciated.
I still have a hard time reconciling this practice with the principle of unbroken, continuous movement, but with the help of the wave image I've been able to overcome a lot of my original feeling of "this is just wrong" and am beginning to move past it and am even starting to feel some improvements in my foundation work, my foot work, due to this.
I find I am now much more aware of where my feet are in relation to my upper body when I pay attention to this "pause". I seem to be more conscious of my entire frame and how correctly I am oriented for the "end" of each posture. Thinking more clearly of the entire body to gauge when to pause but not pause seems to put my intention more clearly into what I'm doing right now, giving me a much more clear idea of the moement. Instead of setting up for the next movement, I am more clearly focused on the one I'm "completing" and this has given me more stability in my stances.
Or so it seems at first blush.
I'm still working on this idea, but if I even only ever get that much out of the concept I feel it is effort well worth the time.
Anyone else have a similar experience with this? Am I deluding myself, or is this part of idea of "pause but don't pause" as the Yang family are practicing it?
Thanks for all the help so far. Looking forward to learning and exploring more about this and any other topic of Yang family TCC with you all.
-
Kalamondin
- Posts: 309
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 7:01 am
Hi Cheefatt,
Wow! Lots of good things to think about in your post. I will try shrinking my pung jin sphere next time I do push hands to hold and absorb a push in a static posture. I want to try both contained within the posture and slightly smaller than the posture, then try expanding it suddenly beyond the posture to see what happens.
I also liked your explanation of double weight being jin in a single direction.
I have been walking around trying to practice pung jin and relax where I have "hollows" and better contain "protuberances."
Can you tell me what "chai jin" is? Maybe this is something again where you are using a different spelling system, or maybe I just don't know this concept.
Thank you!
Kal
Wow! Lots of good things to think about in your post. I will try shrinking my pung jin sphere next time I do push hands to hold and absorb a push in a static posture. I want to try both contained within the posture and slightly smaller than the posture, then try expanding it suddenly beyond the posture to see what happens.
I also liked your explanation of double weight being jin in a single direction.
I have been walking around trying to practice pung jin and relax where I have "hollows" and better contain "protuberances."
Can you tell me what "chai jin" is? Maybe this is something again where you are using a different spelling system, or maybe I just don't know this concept.
Thank you!
Kal