Yang Family Tai Chi Discussion Board

DP

I've not forgotten your posts - just working backwards and trying to get a place to start from clear in my mind.

Though some of what I have stated in response to Audi should have clarified what I am saying...

Stephen

Audi,

excuse me for being too peremptory in regard to your formulation about jin generation. Actually sometimes when we talk about the (internal and external) movement progression we can say that in some sense it is generated (ie initiated) in the feet. But if we look at this process more generally, then I think it's a bit more complex thing. And I can't say that I know it without any uncertainty myself. That's why I was asking you the question.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Yuri



[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 10-17-2006).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Anderzander:
<B>DP

I've not forgotten your posts - just working backwards and trying to get a place to start from clear in my mind.

Though some of what I have stated in response to Audi should have clarified what I am saying...

Stephen</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Stephen,

Since you are still organizing you thoughts to reply to my earlier posts, perhaps it will help if I try to relate our differing positions from my perspective. At least it may stimulate additional thoughts.

Your position, as I understand it, and as a simplified statement, is essentially that the eight jin/energies are generated by the rising and falling of energy, whereas my position is essentially that they are generated by the circle.

I view your rising and falling of energy to be an important factor contributing to the generation of the eight jin, but to me it is incomplete. It is similar to using rising and falling to describe a wave; important but not complete. I use the circle. While rising and falling is important in describing the energy generated by many circles, it is not comprehensive, and I feel that circles in any directions are all capable of generating the eight jin, which are easily demonstrated through applications shown using simple circles (different jin shown at different places around the circle).

For simplicity, let’s put my circles idea into space defined by three planes (X, Y, and Z). One plane would comprise Left/Right + Front/Back = the Horizontal Plane, another Left/Right + Up/Down = the Frontal Plane, the third Front/Back + Up/Down = the Sagital Plane. Any of these three planes is sufficient to describe a circle, but rising and falling (i.e. Up/Down) is only a part of two. A circle can be drawn anywhere within the space defined by these three planes, but rising and falling (i.e. Up/Down), while contributing to most of the possible circles, does not contribute to circles on only the Horizontal Plane. I feel that a spin or rotational force (for lack of better terms) also contributes to the generation of the eight jin, and this force is in addition to the rising and falling that you describe. This spin or rotational force does not depend on the rising and falling force, but typically acts along with it to generate the eight jin.

I should probably state that my understanding of the circle generating the eight jin comes primarily from my Chen style training rather than my Yang style training, and it is reinforced by my training in I-Liq-Chuan, both of which have specific drills for circling in these planes (e.g. chansijin drills in Chen style). But since we are talking about fundamental energies underlying all styles of Taijiquan, this should not matter should it? OTOH perhaps this is a conceptual difference between Chen and Yang. While Chen emphasizes such things as chansijin and dantien rotation, my Yang style training, though still emphasizing circularity and the importance of the dantien, views the dantien more in terms of expansion/contraction. This expansion/contraction duality may fit better in principle with your understanding of rising and falling (as another duality) than with my understanding of the circle producing the eight jin. Do you think that there is this fundamentally different viewpoint between Chen and Yang and could this have been responsible for the differing training methods, differences in the way that the forms are performed, etc?

DP

DP

I think we have some similarities and some differences.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by DPasek:
Your position, as I understand it, and as a simplified statement, is essentially that the eight jin/energies are generated by the rising and falling of energy, whereas my position is essentially that they are generated by the circle.

I view your rising and falling of energy to be an important factor contributing to the generation of the eight jin, but to me it is incomplete. It is similar to using rising and falling to describe a wave; important but not complete. I use the circle. While rising and falling is important in describing the energy generated by many circles, it is not comprehensive, and I feel that circles in any directions are all capable of generating the eight jin, which are easily demonstrated through applications shown using simple circles (different jin shown at different places around the circle).</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I stated that the rising and falling is 'manipulated' to produce the basic jin. These Jin are then combined and joined which creates circles. So perhaps we are not too dissimilar on that.

Greetings,
I don’t quite understand the discussions regarding “generation” of jin. I’m not sure that taiji theory concerns itself much with how jin is “generated.” This is just my take on it, but isn’t jin more about the integrative attribute of movement than about a particular source or locus? In an application environment, the source of jin is not as important as how that jin is managed. That is, the predominant source of jin may be from my opponent. My opponent, moreover, may be physically stronger than I am. So it is incumbent on me to manage his jin to my advantage. That requires sensitivity, timing, as well as an integrated use of my resources.
The classics, to my recollection, do not address generation of jin. When jin is discussed in the classics, the important issues include “understanding” jin; “issuing” jin; “mobilizing” jin (“like drawing silk,” or “like well-tempered steel”); and “storing” or “reserving” jin. We are told that the jin can “break off,” but that the intent should not; that jin “seems loosened, but not loosened,” and “about to expand, but not yet expanding.” These have to do with sensitivity to, and management of jin, not the production of jin.

Yuri astutely pointed out: “To be correct, the classics say that jin is rooted in the feet, not generated (i.e. created).” Actually, the line in the “Taijiquan Classic” only has a pronoun (“it”), and does not mention jin: “It is rooted in the feet, issued by the legs, governed by the waist, and expressed in the fingers. From the feet, to the legs, then to the waist, always there must be complete integration into one qi.” Li Yiyu paraphrased this elsewhere, and did use the word jin. The point, though, is that although “ben” here could mean “rooted” or, perhaps “sourced,” it does not mean a productive source. That is, it does not mean that jin is generated in the feet. Rather, it refers to a trajectory or pathway along which the jin moves. It refers to the tendency of one’s own movement, “managed” or “governed” by the waist.

Take care,
Louis

Greetings all,

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">To be correct,the classics say that jin is rooted in the feet, not generated (i.e. created).</font>

Yuri, you are correct. I had thought that one of the formulations I once read used the word sheng1; however, after a brief search, I cannot find this anywhere. Since I cannot put up ("i.e., display proof"), I will shut up--at least about this .

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The point, though, is that although “ben?here could mean “rooted?or, perhaps “sourced,?it does not mean a productive source. That is, it does not mean that jin is generated in the feet. Rather, it refers to a trajectory or pathway along which the jin moves. It refers to the tendency of one’s own movement, “managed?or “governed?by the waist.</font>

Although I think the word is actually "gen1," rather than "ben3," I would more or less agree with this.

Li Yiyu's recently "discovered" "Song of the Essence and Application of T'ai-chi Ch'uan" (Douglas Wile's Lost T'ai-chi Classics from the Late Ch'ing Dynasty) is not, as far as I understand it, a "Yang family classics"; however, Li seems to have a similar take. In talking about body alignment he states:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>Place the feet with cat steps,
Moving the ch'i like coiling silk.
In movement, everthing moves;
In stillness, all is still.
Above, the crown of the head is suspended,
And below the ch'i sinds to the tan t'ien.
Drape the shoulders and sink the elbows;
***
Use the mind and not strength,
Turning the body with the waist.
Everything rises from the root in the feet,
While legs and waist are perfectly aligned.
Energy issues from the spine,
Reaching the arms and fingertimps.
Stretch the sinews and draw out the bones;
Relax the wrists and spread the fingertips.
There is a slight feeling of swelling in the fingers,
For wherever the ch'i goes there is a manifestation in the body.
All of this is a function of the mind,
And has nothing to do with brute force.
When full and empty are clearly distinguished,
Hard and soft follow the changing situation.
Yin and yang must complement each other,
As moving back and forth we shift and change.
The ch'i is aroused with the changing power relationship,
And the spirit is held within.
Movement arises from stillness,
But even in movement there is stillness.
***
After drawing the opponent in and neutralizing his energy,
We issue power like a bubbling well.
Let the strongest aggressor attack us,
While four ounces deflect a thousand pounds.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Pp 50-51. Wiles also gives the Chinese. If anyone is interested in particular phrasing, let me know.

In Li's "Song of the Circulation of Ch'i," he states similarly:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>The ch'i is like the waters of the Yangtze,
As it flows eastward wave upon wave;
Arising {lai2 zi4} from the "bubbling well" point in the ball of the foot,
It travels up the spine in the back.
Arriving at the ni-wan in the center of the brain,
It returns to the yin-t'ang between the brows.
The mind leads the ch'i,
And never leaves it for an instant.
For example, if you want to raise your right hand,
The mind-ch'i first reaches the armpit.
then following the kinetic energy ("jin"),
You will feel the mind-ch'iin the pit of the elbow.
Tuyrning over your hand,
The ch'i will arrive a the nei-kuan point on the inside of the arm above the wrist.
If the right hand extends outward in push,
The palm will slightly protrude,
As the ch'i travels to the yin side of the hand,
And finally reaches the tips of the five fingers.
It is the same with one or two hands,
And the feet and hands are no different.
If I reveal one side to you,
You should be able to complete the other three for yourself.
If you practice in this way,
Your whole body will be connected as if with a single thread.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
P. 55

Although I think this is close to the Yang view, I think Yang Chengfu and his successors (perhaps predecessors as well) placed less emphasis on "tracking" qi and jin. Yang Zhenduo says in an excerpt of his 1997 book (as translated by our beloved Jerry):

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Relaxation and training should both be conscious (or purposive). That is just what our predecessors meant by "consciously (purposely) relax and unconsciously (unintentionally) create hardness". If one can really achieve relaxation (fang song), it will be transmitted into the combining of the body activity with the ten essentials, naturally creating the material conditions so that 'energy' (jing) will arise according to the requirements of the moves. If you try to create 'energy' (jing) directly, paradoxically you become limited by 'energy' (jing). When we say "use intent rather than strength", the main idea is that you should not use 'coarse strength' but rather 'energy' (jing).</font>

As Louis mentioned, I do not see in the above any emphasis on creation or generation of movement. What I see basically is the following:

1. You must relax and extend the body in a conscious way.
2. The relaxation and extension allow the qi and jin to circulate freely and naturally.
3. You will actually have a specific sensation if you meet the requirements.
4. The sensation and what it represents are created indirectly, not directly.
5. You must then use your mind's intent to guide the qi and jin, using proper body alignment, to execute specific applications.

For "beginners" I would add that with the right teacher and the right student (both are necessary), there are certain jin sensations that you should have almost immediately. Although this is somewhat subtle, it is not that subtle. Although some of the mechanisms may seem mysterious, the actual result should not be. "Melting iron" to soften it is not that difficult. What is difficult and takes real effort and time (i.e., gongfu) is the folding, beating, and tempering of the iron to create high quality strong, but flexible steel. This is the real "needle in the cotton." (Rou2 zhong1 you3 gang1).

Take care,
Audi

[This message has been edited by Audi (edited 10-21-2006).]

[This message has been edited by Audi (edited 10-21-2006).]

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[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 11-27-2006).]