Yang lineage and other translations

Yuri Snisarenko · Post by **Yuri Snisarenko** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:06 am

Greetings All,

Tomasa,

Thank you for the interesting quotation. I do believe that if one trains professionally to be, say, a bodyguard or a security guard and he/she protects others' lives daily, then he/she must train differently than ordinary people. Here probably additional more vigorous practice methods come into play, including fast form, small (tight) form and so on. My point is that the practice for yourself and the practice to be a Professional are two different things. For example, if you are a professional you must know what opponents from others styles may apply against you. So, masters of the past definitely observed others styles. For instance, I read that Yang Long Frame (129 postures chang quan) probably contained some Chen style methods like tandou jin (µ¯¶¶¾¢, see the second link below). All of this because of a special attitude to a need of defending yourself, defending others, defending your name.

I practiced not only big frame, but also a kind of small tight form of Yang style. The difference was in the accent on hitting techniques in that form. But with time I found long/big form (da jia) to be more suitable for my lifestyle.

Interesting, how does "4 square, 4 corners" as a form movement look like?

Jerry,

I once downloaded the book from this link - http://www.digiark.com/tushu/cbsj/tiyu.html
(the first column). But I'm not sure that it still works.

Probability a student of Mr Zhang (Author of the book about Long fist)) speaks here ¨C
http://www.tjq.name/taiji/luntan/dispbb ... 1&id=13563 (I am not sure)

Please correct me, if I am wrong.

Take care,

Yuri

[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 11-09-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 11-09-2005).]

Yuri Snisarenko · Post by **Yuri Snisarenko** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:45 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by mls_72:
here is a sample of the new taijiquan I been talking about- Beijing wushu team 2005 clips- see the taijiquan ones.

http://www.polariswushu.net/Sampler.html

enjoy!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've downloaded beijingwushuteam7.
Perfect.

JerryKarin · Post by **JerryKarin** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:54 pm

Yes, he studied with Zhang (who published the book about the 129 changquan form) and says (according to what he was told) this is the form Yang Chengfu practiced before defining his 85-move form (ie the one we associate with Yang Chengfu today), and that this form was adopted from one the Yangs learned from the Chen family, and that it contains some Chen-like elements.

JerryKarin · Post by **JerryKarin** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:58 pm

If I remember correctly Wang Yongquan also refers to a laojia or 'old frame' by which he meant an older version of Yang style, closer to what Yang Luchan learned from the Chen family.

Louis Swaim · Post by **Louis Swaim** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:49 pm

Greetings,

It might be good to take a crack at translating that Yang taij quanpu document, “Ba-wu shisanshi changquan jie” that Pang Daming cites. Some of it kind of leaves me scratching my head, though. I’m not sure what to make of the repeated reference to “sishou,” for example. Would that be the “four hands” of peng, lu, ji, and an? I’ll try to take a close look at this document soon. If anyone else feels like going over it, be sure to chime in.

--Louis

[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 11-10-2005).]

Gu Rou Chen · Post by **Gu Rou Chen** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:11 am

Sishou can be used to refer to peng, lv, ji, and the basic push hand pattern that uses them. I wonder if it may also refer to what I have seen near the beginning of some form sets where one pengs in four diagonal directions.

Louis Swaim · Post by **Louis Swaim** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:31 am

Greetings,

When I got home tonight, I realized that the “Ba-wu shisanshi changquan jie” has been translated by Douglas Wile in _Lost T’ai-chi Classics of the Late Ch’ing Dynasty_ (text #16, pp. 71, 140). I’ve gone ahead and worked through my own translation, which differs in some repects to Wile’s. One notable point I’ve taken differently is the phrase beginning, “wanbude,” which I take to mean “by no means,” but Wile renders “it is necessary.” So the meaning I get here is the reverse of what he got. Here’s my attempt:

~~~
Unraveling the eight [gates]-five [steps] and thirteen postures of Long Boxing

When you apply yourself diligently, after having gained achievement in each and every posture/form, gather them together to make it long, flowing without stopping, on and on to return again. Hence it is named Long Boxing. By no means should it have fixed postures, for fear that it will eventually become slick and facile boxing, or stiff and rigid boxing. Never neglect its soft malleability. The entire body, in ebbing and flowing, will in time be naturally pervaded with a vital spirit, the foundation for intent and qi, reaching everywhere and invulnerable. When you engage with opponents, the four hand methods take priority, and these in turn come from the eight gates and five steps. In standing, the four hand methods mill and polish (nian3mo2), [then there are the] four hand methods of the center, the four hand methods of downward and upward, and the four hand methods of sancai (heaven, earth, man). On the basis of these lower [skills], the four hand methods of Long Boxing arise, first expanding and spreading, then refining to be more closely knit, bending and according, so that skill comes at will, advancing to middle, and then to higher achievement!
~~~

Comments and critiques welcome.

Take care,
Louis

[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 11-09-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 11-10-2005).]

Tomasa · Post by **Tomasa** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:35 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by JerryKarin:
Zhang (who published the book about the 129 changquan form) and says (according to what he was told) this is the form Yang Chengfu practiced before defining his 85-move form (ie the one we associate with Yang Chengfu today. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who is Zhang? Zhang Qinlin?

Tomasa

[This message has been edited by Tomasa (edited 11-10-2005).]

Yuri Snisarenko · Post by **Yuri Snisarenko** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:28 pm

Greetings

Louis,
Thank you for the translation! I think you mistyped "eight steps" instead of "8 gates 5 steps". The text is very appealing, but without knowing what "si shou" (four hands) really are, we scarcely can grasp its meaning thoroughly.

Tomasa,
No, the author's name is Zhang Chuquan.

JerryKarin · Post by **JerryKarin** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:55 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tomasa:

Hi - who is Zhang? Zhang Qinlin?
Qinlin is nephew of great Master Chengfu second wife (Zhu Qing, daughter of Zhao Qing y beautiful sister to Master Zhao Bin). He help Chengfu demostrated combative postures in book. He okay but not special. No special knowlege. Much less than Cui Yishi, Nui, Li, Li Jianjun, so on.
Tomasa

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Zhang Chuquan 张楚全, author of the book about the 129 taiji changquan form.

[This message has been edited by JerryKarin (edited 11-10-2005).]

Yuri Snisarenko · Post by **Yuri Snisarenko** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:21 pm

However, si shou most probably are different ways of peng_lu_ji_an paired practice.

Yuri Snisarenko · Post by **Yuri Snisarenko** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:42 pm

Either not only peng_lu_ji_an, but just different paired practises like tuishou, dalu. Interesting, what practice is sancai sishou…. never heard.

Louis Swaim · Post by **Louis Swaim** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 4:35 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Yuri Snisarenko:
Greetings

Louis,
Thank you for the translation! I think you mistyped "eight steps" instead of "8 gates 5 steps". The text is very appealing, but without knowing what "si shou" (four hands) really are, we scarcely can grasp its meaning thoroughly.
. . .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Greetings Yuri,

Thank you for the correction! I've fixed it. It's not good to work fast and tired. The eight gates/five steps is shorthand in the title as "ba-wu," but is clarified in the text. I think this text clearly shows a progression of accomplishment, with everything coming out of diligent adherence to fundamentals. It is only for the very accomplished practitioner that one can begin to break the boundaries of form. I agree that sishou must be peng, lu, ji, and an. I noticed a long time back that "shou" does not just mean "hand" in martial texts, but is a more general term for what one does with one's arms and hands. So "shou" is a shorthand designation for arm/hand techniques.

Take care,
Louis

Louis Swaim · Post by **Louis Swaim** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:17 am

Greetings,

Here is my quick translation of Shen Shou’s commentary on the “Ba-wu shisanshi changquan jie” in his _Taijiquanpu_ (Beijing, Renmin tiyu chubanshe, 1991, p. 139):

~~~
The “eight-five” in the essay’s title refers to the eight gates and five steps. “Thirteen Postures,” then, takes the eight gates and five steps as the basic foundation of taijiquan. Based upon the interpretation of this document, the so-called “Thirteen Postures Long Boxing” in fact refers to taijiquan, and not to some unique “Taiji Changquan.” As for newly-created “Taiji Changquan” [forms] of later generations, or a “Taiji Changquan” believed to have been created at the end of the Ming or beginning of the Qing, the first case has very little connection to the subject of this document, and the second case may or may not have—that will require further investigation.
~~~

Take care,
Louis

[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 11-11-2005).]

cheefatt taichi · Post by **cheefatt taichi** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:49 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Yuri Snisarenko:
Greetings

Louis,
Thank you for the translation! I think you mistyped "eight steps" instead of "8 gates 5 steps". The text is very appealing, but without knowing what "si shou" (four hands) really are, we scarcely can grasp its meaning thoroughly.

Tomasa,
No, the author's name is Zhang Chuquan.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi All, "si shou" is refering to Peng, lu, ji, an in pulling the peacocks tail. This is confirmed by my sifu who is inner student of Tung Hu Ling and a book written by Yang Shao Chung.