Greetings,
The Yang Chengfu Pictures thread loads very slowly on my home dial-up account, so I’m posting a couple of comments here. Regarding Wushuer’s remarks about YCF’s head and neck alignment, it’s been observed that this is one aspect of his later form that had attained a much greater consistency. Comparing the earlier to the mature photos, Yang Chengfu himself wrote, “looking back at the photographs of my postures ten years ago, they are inferior to today’s.” (Preface to Taijiquan Tiyong Quanshu, Wile, Touchstones, p. 155).
Another interesting note. Yang Zhenji points out in his book (p. 162) that the illustrations in Taijiquan Tiyong Quanshu for both “White Crane Displays Wings,” and “Retreat Astride Tiger” used the exact same photo, but that the actual forms as transmitted differ.
Take care,
Louis
[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 03-20-2004).]
photo comments
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JerryKarin
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The way Yang Chengfu executed many of the moves seems to have changed quite a bit between the two sets of photos. Hand placement in White Crane, for example, is quite different. The orientation of the fists is different in a number of moves. The positioning of the legs in left and right strike tiger changed. Those are just a few examples. Overall it seems to me that Yang Chengfu's later pictures are vastly better than the earlier ones. He seems to have integrated the principles better and looks more graceful and powerful. His arms in particular had improved, and the neck and head alignment as earlier noted.
Yang Zhenduo seems to show Tuibu kuahu looking similar to Bai he liang chi. Xie Bingcan, a student of Fu Zhongwen, has the two ending postures rather different.
Yang Zhenduo seems to show Tuibu kuahu looking similar to Bai he liang chi. Xie Bingcan, a student of Fu Zhongwen, has the two ending postures rather different.
Hi all,
Jerry, I found quite surprising are the fist in Punch Downward, which appears to be horizontal, rather than vertical. I am not sure I recall any Taiji practitioners punching in this way.
Another surprising variation I found was in the foot orientations. In some Bow stances the angle of the feet apears to be about 60 degrees, which I know that many still advocate; however, in others he seems to have the feet almost parallel (shades of Wu Style?). In some postures, it even appears that his front toes are pointing 10 or 20 degrees inside the line established by his arms, which is something I read about once in Tai Chi Magazine.
All in all, I think I am glad that many things seem to have been standardized, categorized, and simplified.
Take care,
Audi
Jerry, I found quite surprising are the fist in Punch Downward, which appears to be horizontal, rather than vertical. I am not sure I recall any Taiji practitioners punching in this way.
Another surprising variation I found was in the foot orientations. In some Bow stances the angle of the feet apears to be about 60 degrees, which I know that many still advocate; however, in others he seems to have the feet almost parallel (shades of Wu Style?). In some postures, it even appears that his front toes are pointing 10 or 20 degrees inside the line established by his arms, which is something I read about once in Tai Chi Magazine.
All in all, I think I am glad that many things seem to have been standardized, categorized, and simplified.
Take care,
Audi
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Louis Swaim
- Posts: 1390
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Greetings Jerry,
Re: “Yang Zhenduo seems to show Tuibu kuahu looking similar to Bai he liang chi. Xie Bingcan, a student of Fu Zhongwen, has the two ending postures rather different.”
The difference between these two postures that I learned from my first sifu is that in White Crane Displays Wings the right hand is close to the temple. In Retreat Astride Tiger, the right arm is a bit lower than the temple, and both arms are a bit more spread apart, left to right. Yang Chengfu describes this as a response to an opponent’s two-armed An. This outward spreading is also part of the set up for the spin of Turn Body Sweep Lotus, a sort of wind-up, if you will.
Take care,
Louis
Re: “Yang Zhenduo seems to show Tuibu kuahu looking similar to Bai he liang chi. Xie Bingcan, a student of Fu Zhongwen, has the two ending postures rather different.”
The difference between these two postures that I learned from my first sifu is that in White Crane Displays Wings the right hand is close to the temple. In Retreat Astride Tiger, the right arm is a bit lower than the temple, and both arms are a bit more spread apart, left to right. Yang Chengfu describes this as a response to an opponent’s two-armed An. This outward spreading is also part of the set up for the spin of Turn Body Sweep Lotus, a sort of wind-up, if you will.
Take care,
Louis
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JerryKarin
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- Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 7:01 am
- Contact:
Audi,
Shades of Wu stle? In YCF's forms?
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Surely not! I do that enough for everyone!
Seriously though. YCF and WCC studied and taught together for a long time. I have heard stories of the two of them doing push hands together for demonstrations.
Since at that time there was very little differentiation (is that a word? well, I guess it is now) between the "styles", I would imagine you very easily could be seeing "shades of Wu style" in his forms.
I would have to imagine that YCF would have picked up on some of these ideas and experimented with them while WCC was inventing his forms.
Just as I'm sure that Wu Chien Chuan would also have picked up some ideas from YCF and experimented with them.
Very interesting, but nothing outside the realm of possibility, surely.
I, myself, probably look quite a bit like that when I do Yang style.
I have one heck of a time putting my back foot at 45 degrees in "bow stance" because I've been placing it parallel for over fifteen years in Wu styles "archery stance".
One good reason for this. Because it works better for me that way.
I know, I know, it's not "proper Yang style form" and I do my utmost not to do it. However I haven't quite found the jing in the "bow stance" this way. Not all of it, anyway. I'm still working on it though.
Maybe he was experimenting with it to see how it worked at the time of these photos?
Maybe he just missed his foot placement this time?
I guess we'll never know.
Shades of Wu stle? In YCF's forms?
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Surely not! I do that enough for everyone!
Seriously though. YCF and WCC studied and taught together for a long time. I have heard stories of the two of them doing push hands together for demonstrations.
Since at that time there was very little differentiation (is that a word? well, I guess it is now) between the "styles", I would imagine you very easily could be seeing "shades of Wu style" in his forms.
I would have to imagine that YCF would have picked up on some of these ideas and experimented with them while WCC was inventing his forms.
Just as I'm sure that Wu Chien Chuan would also have picked up some ideas from YCF and experimented with them.
Very interesting, but nothing outside the realm of possibility, surely.
I, myself, probably look quite a bit like that when I do Yang style.
I have one heck of a time putting my back foot at 45 degrees in "bow stance" because I've been placing it parallel for over fifteen years in Wu styles "archery stance".
One good reason for this. Because it works better for me that way.
I know, I know, it's not "proper Yang style form" and I do my utmost not to do it. However I haven't quite found the jing in the "bow stance" this way. Not all of it, anyway. I'm still working on it though.
Maybe he was experimenting with it to see how it worked at the time of these photos?
Maybe he just missed his foot placement this time?
I guess we'll never know.
Audi & Co.,
In Wu Ta-kuei's 4th and Eddie Wu's 5th generation Wu style, the downward punches are indeed with a horizontal rather than a vertical fist. In previous generations family members consistently displayed vertical fists in the same forms. I'm told it is up to the discretion of the different instructors, as the positionings of the fists represent different punch applications.
Regards,
-P.
In Wu Ta-kuei's 4th and Eddie Wu's 5th generation Wu style, the downward punches are indeed with a horizontal rather than a vertical fist. In previous generations family members consistently displayed vertical fists in the same forms. I'm told it is up to the discretion of the different instructors, as the positionings of the fists represent different punch applications.
Regards,
-P.
Regarding the puch orientation,
I remember back in the day when I was learning Lien bu chaun (1st form for shailon longfist), I asked my tacher about the fist, he just said "however you want" meaning however I feel its better for me.
Years later, learining taijiquan I asked the same question. I has seen pictures of "draw the bow and shoot the tiger" both with orizontal fist and vertical fists. again, same answer!!!
I guess its just a matter of aplication. Some targerts are easily struck by a vertical fist, while others by a horizontal one.
But the standard for yang taijiquan (the forms I've seen anyway) are always with a vertical fist.
I was reading an article by william cc chen one time, and he was saying that he liked to strike with a vertical fist, since he felt the horuzontal punch, because of positioning, has more invlovemnt of the bicep, which he felt it was emmiting a force in the opposite direction than the tricep. In other words, there was mutual resistance within the arm structure, therofe making the punch a little stiffer. He was also explaining how if we focuss jusn on the three bigger fingers of the hand (thumb, index, middle) and the thwo fisrs knuckes, rather than the whole fist it would be easier to punch ina relaxed "taiji" manner.
Could this be the reason why YCF switched his fist from horizontal to vertical? william chen learned from cheng man ching who in turn learned from YCF... kinda makes me wonder!
I remember back in the day when I was learning Lien bu chaun (1st form for shailon longfist), I asked my tacher about the fist, he just said "however you want" meaning however I feel its better for me.
Years later, learining taijiquan I asked the same question. I has seen pictures of "draw the bow and shoot the tiger" both with orizontal fist and vertical fists. again, same answer!!!
I guess its just a matter of aplication. Some targerts are easily struck by a vertical fist, while others by a horizontal one.
But the standard for yang taijiquan (the forms I've seen anyway) are always with a vertical fist.
I was reading an article by william cc chen one time, and he was saying that he liked to strike with a vertical fist, since he felt the horuzontal punch, because of positioning, has more invlovemnt of the bicep, which he felt it was emmiting a force in the opposite direction than the tricep. In other words, there was mutual resistance within the arm structure, therofe making the punch a little stiffer. He was also explaining how if we focuss jusn on the three bigger fingers of the hand (thumb, index, middle) and the thwo fisrs knuckes, rather than the whole fist it would be easier to punch ina relaxed "taiji" manner.
Could this be the reason why YCF switched his fist from horizontal to vertical? william chen learned from cheng man ching who in turn learned from YCF... kinda makes me wonder!
Greetings,
The various fists do have different internal stretches, to be sure. In the 1st, 2nd & 3rd generations (and some branches of the 4th generation) forms we do, the fists are definitely vertical, and the new 54 posture "competition" form the Wu family are promoting lately the fists are all vertical. In the SHOOT TIGER forms we do, our fists are striking sideways with the thumb knuckle as a point of contact, very nasty.
So there is the target to consider. A low vertical or "planting" punch can be for an incoming kick, for example, a target below the fist in other words. A horizontal punch can be for striking upwards into the groin with the knuckles after positioning the fist downwards. In Wu style, the horizontal punches are only done low, below the height of the practitioner's navel, straight fist punches from there to the height of the nose are done with a vertical fist, above the nose straight puncheds are much harder to do, we usually do "flail" punches from the elbow with a backfist, or knife edge fist. Those are also good for striking the ribs. There are many, many other strikes, too, but they aren't strictly speaking "straight" punches.
Regards,
-P.
The various fists do have different internal stretches, to be sure. In the 1st, 2nd & 3rd generations (and some branches of the 4th generation) forms we do, the fists are definitely vertical, and the new 54 posture "competition" form the Wu family are promoting lately the fists are all vertical. In the SHOOT TIGER forms we do, our fists are striking sideways with the thumb knuckle as a point of contact, very nasty.
So there is the target to consider. A low vertical or "planting" punch can be for an incoming kick, for example, a target below the fist in other words. A horizontal punch can be for striking upwards into the groin with the knuckles after positioning the fist downwards. In Wu style, the horizontal punches are only done low, below the height of the practitioner's navel, straight fist punches from there to the height of the nose are done with a vertical fist, above the nose straight puncheds are much harder to do, we usually do "flail" punches from the elbow with a backfist, or knife edge fist. Those are also good for striking the ribs. There are many, many other strikes, too, but they aren't strictly speaking "straight" punches.
Regards,
-P.