Aw, go easy on him Wushuer. He didn't make all this stuff up, he's been indoctrinated. A lot of what he said is standard fare on some bulletin boards we know.
Part of the problem is that folks like Montaigue lead people to believe that taiji is nothing more than techniques (a la Karate) that can be learned quickly, and if your teacher doesn't give you something of that sort right away you're being ripped off.
Erle Montaigue and Yang Family Stories
Get over yourself Wushuer.
Good grief. I wouldn't even WANT to study with somebody like you.
Egads.
Lighten up a little bit.
If you think my attitude is bad, you should meet some MMA, boxing or judo people.
I would have some sharper words to say, but this is a public forum.
Maybe you need to calm down a bit, think it over, talk to some people outside your community and come back to reality.
You seem to think I'm a teenage newbie or something. But I've done a LOT of research into taiji.
Push-hands is only a very beginning exercise. After that, you start to train other various things, like silk reeling skills, etc.
So when I go to a lot of taiji teachers and they don't do anything beyond push-hands, and haven't even heard of silk reeling, what do you think I should believe? That they are very skilled?
Whatever. I don't even want to deal with you anymore because you obviously have just boxed me in as a know-nothing and haven't listened to anything I've said.
You yourself have a lot to learn about dealing with people.
[This message has been edited by wushunut (edited 07-01-2004).]
[This message has been edited by wushunut (edited 07-01-2004).]
Good grief. I wouldn't even WANT to study with somebody like you.
Egads.
Lighten up a little bit.
If you think my attitude is bad, you should meet some MMA, boxing or judo people.
I would have some sharper words to say, but this is a public forum.
Maybe you need to calm down a bit, think it over, talk to some people outside your community and come back to reality.
You seem to think I'm a teenage newbie or something. But I've done a LOT of research into taiji.
Push-hands is only a very beginning exercise. After that, you start to train other various things, like silk reeling skills, etc.
So when I go to a lot of taiji teachers and they don't do anything beyond push-hands, and haven't even heard of silk reeling, what do you think I should believe? That they are very skilled?
Whatever. I don't even want to deal with you anymore because you obviously have just boxed me in as a know-nothing and haven't listened to anything I've said.
You yourself have a lot to learn about dealing with people.
[This message has been edited by wushunut (edited 07-01-2004).]
[This message has been edited by wushunut (edited 07-01-2004).]
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JerryKarin
- Posts: 1067
- Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 7:01 am
- Contact:
At this point I don't even want to learn taiji.
It's no wonder the rest of the martial arts community thinks taiji is for geriatric hippies.
It may take years sure, all I wanted to do was find a good teacher so I didn't waste my time. Somebody with some real skill.
Instead, I get it thrown back in my face.
See you guys later. I won't bother you with any more posts.
It's no wonder the rest of the martial arts community thinks taiji is for geriatric hippies.
It may take years sure, all I wanted to do was find a good teacher so I didn't waste my time. Somebody with some real skill.
Instead, I get it thrown back in my face.
See you guys later. I won't bother you with any more posts.
Wushunut:
Come back, come back! I think that skepticism is very healthy and the points you have raised are worth more discussion!
Here is my view. If becoming proficient at self-defense quickly is your goal, you will get there more efficiently with external arts such as tae kwon do. Being able to use taiji well for self-defense can take many, many years. Absorbing taijiquan is a lifelong journey, and there will always be refinements. It is a very subtle art. I think a main reason for this is that it is antithetical. Many external arts use muscle strength and tension in their techniques, which is our natural instinct. With taiji, the opposite is true - we have to learn to use relaxation within expansion, and vice-versa.
Yes, there are many pretenders out there. But if you really want to learn taiji, take your time. Eventually you will find a teacher who can guide you down the path you're looking for. There are good schools that teach not only form and push hands, but also applications and fighting. You have to be patient and look. Many teachers are only into taiji for the health benefits (and are therefore missing much of the enjoyment inherent in the art, in my view).
I have never studied with Mr. Montaigue. I have seen some of his tapes, and based upon the limited snippets I saw, the applications seemed very "hard" (I mean external). Taiji, though, is an exercise in understanding and using various subtle types of energy as efficiently as possible. I am guessing that he teaches the deeper levels in person. There is so much more to the art of taiji than smashing acupuncture points to cause injury.
One final point on the applications/fighting question. My first taiji teacher was very good at applications. I asked him how he learned them, and he said he had not learned them from his master; he studied the principles, experimented and invented them himself. Some years later, I began to study with a master from Shanghai. His applications were at a very high level. I asked the same question. I got the same answer.
Many times, effective taiji applications and techniques come from inside YOU, rather than from a teacher programming them into you. That type of excellence (I'm nowhere close) seems to come from years of form study, pondering the energies, and experimenting with different partners.
I hope you will keep looking and not give up. Skepticism is not a reason to end your journey - it's a reason to continue it.
Gene
Come back, come back! I think that skepticism is very healthy and the points you have raised are worth more discussion!
Here is my view. If becoming proficient at self-defense quickly is your goal, you will get there more efficiently with external arts such as tae kwon do. Being able to use taiji well for self-defense can take many, many years. Absorbing taijiquan is a lifelong journey, and there will always be refinements. It is a very subtle art. I think a main reason for this is that it is antithetical. Many external arts use muscle strength and tension in their techniques, which is our natural instinct. With taiji, the opposite is true - we have to learn to use relaxation within expansion, and vice-versa.
Yes, there are many pretenders out there. But if you really want to learn taiji, take your time. Eventually you will find a teacher who can guide you down the path you're looking for. There are good schools that teach not only form and push hands, but also applications and fighting. You have to be patient and look. Many teachers are only into taiji for the health benefits (and are therefore missing much of the enjoyment inherent in the art, in my view).
I have never studied with Mr. Montaigue. I have seen some of his tapes, and based upon the limited snippets I saw, the applications seemed very "hard" (I mean external). Taiji, though, is an exercise in understanding and using various subtle types of energy as efficiently as possible. I am guessing that he teaches the deeper levels in person. There is so much more to the art of taiji than smashing acupuncture points to cause injury.
One final point on the applications/fighting question. My first taiji teacher was very good at applications. I asked him how he learned them, and he said he had not learned them from his master; he studied the principles, experimented and invented them himself. Some years later, I began to study with a master from Shanghai. His applications were at a very high level. I asked the same question. I got the same answer.
Many times, effective taiji applications and techniques come from inside YOU, rather than from a teacher programming them into you. That type of excellence (I'm nowhere close) seems to come from years of form study, pondering the energies, and experimenting with different partners.
I hope you will keep looking and not give up. Skepticism is not a reason to end your journey - it's a reason to continue it.
Gene
Ladies and Gentlemen,
I rest my case as the defendant has proven it beyond a doubt with his own words.
TCC is a transcendental art, first you must transcend your own hubris.
Gene,
You obviously have a better grasp on this Erle whatever his name is than do I.
I've seen the name, don't know where. That's all I know about him.
Who did he study with? How did he ever get the idea that "techniques" will work if you don't follow the principals (if that's what he does, again I don't know)?
I, too, have seen much about the Cultural Revolution in China, and will not say it has not effected TCC because I have also run into the hacks out there who don't know which end of their tantien is up, much less what a tantien is.
I cannot imagine how these people can sleep at night knowing they are ripping off their students, but I have a hard time with a lot of unethical things that happen every day in this world.
Alas! There is not TCC Police Force to keep untutored hacks from teaching what they call TCC.
And if there was, who would listen?
How do you define TCC?
We've been down this road before and as there is no concensus even between the major family lineage holders, how are we to decide?
Is TCC a thing? An art? A martial art? A healthy choice for living?
Is it all of this? And if so, what level of these things do you have to reach before it's accepted as TCC?
So many questions.
I'm glad I have found so many different ways to reach TCC. I now know it when I see it, but I can't exactly describe it to others.
Jerry,
I was as kind to him as I could be given the circumstances. If he took offense and was chased off the boards or TCC alltogethe because of what I said...
Then he again proved my point about dedication and the proper mindset being the two most important aspects of the art.
If you don't have either of those qualities, you might as well just go buy a gun. It requires neither of these things and will instantly elevate one to being a deadly opponent.
The real problem with that?
What do you do when you don't have your gun handy?
Ah, well.
I rest my case as the defendant has proven it beyond a doubt with his own words.
TCC is a transcendental art, first you must transcend your own hubris.
Gene,
You obviously have a better grasp on this Erle whatever his name is than do I.
I've seen the name, don't know where. That's all I know about him.
Who did he study with? How did he ever get the idea that "techniques" will work if you don't follow the principals (if that's what he does, again I don't know)?
I, too, have seen much about the Cultural Revolution in China, and will not say it has not effected TCC because I have also run into the hacks out there who don't know which end of their tantien is up, much less what a tantien is.
I cannot imagine how these people can sleep at night knowing they are ripping off their students, but I have a hard time with a lot of unethical things that happen every day in this world.
Alas! There is not TCC Police Force to keep untutored hacks from teaching what they call TCC.
And if there was, who would listen?
How do you define TCC?
We've been down this road before and as there is no concensus even between the major family lineage holders, how are we to decide?
Is TCC a thing? An art? A martial art? A healthy choice for living?
Is it all of this? And if so, what level of these things do you have to reach before it's accepted as TCC?
So many questions.
I'm glad I have found so many different ways to reach TCC. I now know it when I see it, but I can't exactly describe it to others.
Jerry,
I was as kind to him as I could be given the circumstances. If he took offense and was chased off the boards or TCC alltogethe because of what I said...
Then he again proved my point about dedication and the proper mindset being the two most important aspects of the art.
If you don't have either of those qualities, you might as well just go buy a gun. It requires neither of these things and will instantly elevate one to being a deadly opponent.
The real problem with that?
What do you do when you don't have your gun handy?
Ah, well.
Wushuer,
Since you don't seem to mind wasting time on me, then I'll waste some more time on you.
Have you looked at your posts, and the tone of your posts?
If anybody doesn't have 'TCC', it's you.
You've not only allowed yourself to get thrown by an amateur, but by somebody who wasn't even trying to throw you.
Now you reach out to your 'peers' in a vain attempt for support.
Whatever.
[This message has been edited by wushunut (edited 07-01-2004).]
[This message has been edited by wushunut (edited 07-01-2004).]
Since you don't seem to mind wasting time on me, then I'll waste some more time on you.
Have you looked at your posts, and the tone of your posts?
If anybody doesn't have 'TCC', it's you.
You've not only allowed yourself to get thrown by an amateur, but by somebody who wasn't even trying to throw you.
Now you reach out to your 'peers' in a vain attempt for support.
Whatever.
[This message has been edited by wushunut (edited 07-01-2004).]
[This message has been edited by wushunut (edited 07-01-2004).]
In fact, it's kindof like the guy who is getting out of the bathtub, and putting on his robe.
Somebody rings the doorbell, and he runs to the door, but in the hallway, he trips over the belt, and crashes to the floor, getting all wrapped up in the robe and belt.
Then, in order to save face, he blames the guy who rang the doorbell.
But everybody knows who lost his balance.
[This message has been edited by wushunut (edited 07-01-2004).]
Somebody rings the doorbell, and he runs to the door, but in the hallway, he trips over the belt, and crashes to the floor, getting all wrapped up in the robe and belt.
Then, in order to save face, he blames the guy who rang the doorbell.
But everybody knows who lost his balance.
[This message has been edited by wushunut (edited 07-01-2004).]
Mr. Nut,
We're speaking again? Good. I have missed the witty reparte of our discussions.
I did not have to reach out to my "peers". In case you missed it my "peers" have been right there with me all along.
Where did I stumble? (I don't wear robes, I just wrap a towel around myself, and I don't run to answer the door when I'm showering, if someone knocks then they were obviously uninvited and unnanounced and so I feel no compulsion to answer the door) What portions of my posts are you not getting the tone of?
Maybe you're right though. Maybe I don't have any TCC inside me and I'm just one of those hacks who wants to take your money and am steering you wrong.
Let's see...
I trained in a Yang family offshoot style for nearly two years, learning the form, push hands and a bit of it's applications.
After that...
I've taken instruction with one of the best Sifu's on the planet, Sifu Wu Kwong Yu, his family (including but not limited to Si Kung Wu Tai Sin) and his disciples, for over a decade. I have put in the time and effort to learn that system up to the Senior Student level in their system, and have allready had my Sifu judge my character and it was not found lacking. In fact, after my character was judged I was trained, in depth, in the Wu family push hands and martial applications and I have the honor and priviledge of receiving Sifu's permission to teach his system to others. And, coincidently, am closely related to two of his disciples. In my time I was the first instructor of many beginners in his families traditions that are, today, Senior Students and even Disciples in their own right of that family and it's tradition.
Do I still lack the elusive quality of TCC? Well...
I have been taking instruction in the YCF style now for two and a half years under the tutelage of a teacher who has both Grand Master Yang Zhen Duo's and Master Yang Jun's permisson to teach their transmission. I have been training in this styles forms, push hands and martial apps the entire time. My current instructor has obviously not found any lack in my character, as he's been busily pushing me further and further down the road to the "real deal" with every lesson. Very soon, I will have the priviledge and honor to meet Master Yang Jun. I sincerely hope he doesn't see any major defects in my character and gives me the benefit of his experience and wisdom of his families traditions.
So while I'm, most definitely, lacking in the qualities of TCC itself as pointed out to me by your far seeing eye, several people have allready judged my TCC character, while I watied patiently, and none have found me lacking so far.
I'm not our there throwing around insults to them or their art in the vain hope that by doing so someone will kick loose their secrets to me. I don't believe that if I snark about it long enough I'll eventually get someone to let me in the door, I'm in the thick of it learning, and teaching, a bit more each day.
But, if I don't have TCC by now, I guess I never will.
By the by...
Who's your Master? How long have you trained and who have you trained with? Who has judged your character and found it up to the standard to not only learn thier traditions but to pass on their families art to new students?
Just curious.
Awfully nice to hear from you, old chap. Drop back in and enlighten me further.
We're speaking again? Good. I have missed the witty reparte of our discussions.
I did not have to reach out to my "peers". In case you missed it my "peers" have been right there with me all along.
Where did I stumble? (I don't wear robes, I just wrap a towel around myself, and I don't run to answer the door when I'm showering, if someone knocks then they were obviously uninvited and unnanounced and so I feel no compulsion to answer the door) What portions of my posts are you not getting the tone of?
Maybe you're right though. Maybe I don't have any TCC inside me and I'm just one of those hacks who wants to take your money and am steering you wrong.
Let's see...
I trained in a Yang family offshoot style for nearly two years, learning the form, push hands and a bit of it's applications.
After that...
I've taken instruction with one of the best Sifu's on the planet, Sifu Wu Kwong Yu, his family (including but not limited to Si Kung Wu Tai Sin) and his disciples, for over a decade. I have put in the time and effort to learn that system up to the Senior Student level in their system, and have allready had my Sifu judge my character and it was not found lacking. In fact, after my character was judged I was trained, in depth, in the Wu family push hands and martial applications and I have the honor and priviledge of receiving Sifu's permission to teach his system to others. And, coincidently, am closely related to two of his disciples. In my time I was the first instructor of many beginners in his families traditions that are, today, Senior Students and even Disciples in their own right of that family and it's tradition.
Do I still lack the elusive quality of TCC? Well...
I have been taking instruction in the YCF style now for two and a half years under the tutelage of a teacher who has both Grand Master Yang Zhen Duo's and Master Yang Jun's permisson to teach their transmission. I have been training in this styles forms, push hands and martial apps the entire time. My current instructor has obviously not found any lack in my character, as he's been busily pushing me further and further down the road to the "real deal" with every lesson. Very soon, I will have the priviledge and honor to meet Master Yang Jun. I sincerely hope he doesn't see any major defects in my character and gives me the benefit of his experience and wisdom of his families traditions.
So while I'm, most definitely, lacking in the qualities of TCC itself as pointed out to me by your far seeing eye, several people have allready judged my TCC character, while I watied patiently, and none have found me lacking so far.
I'm not our there throwing around insults to them or their art in the vain hope that by doing so someone will kick loose their secrets to me. I don't believe that if I snark about it long enough I'll eventually get someone to let me in the door, I'm in the thick of it learning, and teaching, a bit more each day.
But, if I don't have TCC by now, I guess I never will.
By the by...
Who's your Master? How long have you trained and who have you trained with? Who has judged your character and found it up to the standard to not only learn thier traditions but to pass on their families art to new students?
Just curious.
Awfully nice to hear from you, old chap. Drop back in and enlighten me further.
I'm not referring to your martial arts skill.
You said:
> And if there was, who would listen?
> How do you define TCC?
> A healthy choice for living?
You seem to be defining TCC as a way of life, balance, etc.
By getting so upset and not even dealing with many of my points, it does not seem like you are showing the balance that you seem to be espousing.
I'm just using your own criteria here.
Oh, well.
It's too bad because I would have rather discussed TCC than discussing this nonsense.
[This message has been edited by wushunut (edited 07-01-2004).]
You said:
> And if there was, who would listen?
> How do you define TCC?
> A healthy choice for living?
You seem to be defining TCC as a way of life, balance, etc.
By getting so upset and not even dealing with many of my points, it does not seem like you are showing the balance that you seem to be espousing.
I'm just using your own criteria here.
Oh, well.
It's too bad because I would have rather discussed TCC than discussing this nonsense.
[This message has been edited by wushunut (edited 07-01-2004).]
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JerryKarin
- Posts: 1067
- Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 7:01 am
- Contact:
OK, OK let's tone it down a bit. Wushunut obviously does not yet entirely realize that he came to a site for devotees of traditional taijiquan and proceeded to broadcast a lot of doubts about the validity of taiji as a martial art. While we are all ok and amused with his very valid and healthy skepticism we are none too impressed by his lack of respect. When you call people who have been seriously studying an art 'geriatric hippies' you tend to come in for some good-natured ribbing. Get used to it, wushunut. You should probably count yourself lucky that Wushuer isn't right in front of you to bounce you around in case you need proof that this is a real martial art.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Wushuer:
<B>In fact, after my character was judged I was trained, in depth, <...edited...> My current instructor has obviously not found any lack in my character, <...edited...> I sincerely hope he doesn't see any major defects in my character <...edited...>
I'm not our there throwing around insults to them or their art in the vain hope that by doing so someone will kick loose their secrets to me. I don't believe that if I snark about it long enough I'll eventually get someone to let me in the door, I'm in the thick of it learning, and teaching, a bit more each day.
But, if I don't have TCC by now, I guess I never will.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Wow. You seem to place a lot of stock on all this character stuff.
Well, if those guys think you are so great, then you obviously are, right?
LOL
[This message has been edited by wushunut (edited 07-01-2004).]
<B>In fact, after my character was judged I was trained, in depth, <...edited...> My current instructor has obviously not found any lack in my character, <...edited...> I sincerely hope he doesn't see any major defects in my character <...edited...>
I'm not our there throwing around insults to them or their art in the vain hope that by doing so someone will kick loose their secrets to me. I don't believe that if I snark about it long enough I'll eventually get someone to let me in the door, I'm in the thick of it learning, and teaching, a bit more each day.
But, if I don't have TCC by now, I guess I never will.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Wow. You seem to place a lot of stock on all this character stuff.
Well, if those guys think you are so great, then you obviously are, right?
LOL
[This message has been edited by wushunut (edited 07-01-2004).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by JerryKarin:
When you call people who have been seriously studying an art 'geriatric hippies' you tend to come in for some good-natured ribbing. Get used to it, wushunut. You should probably count yourself lucky that Wushuer isn't right in front of you to bounce you around in case you need proof that this is a real martial art. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I wasn't calling you geriatric hippies. I was saying that people outside the taiji community think that most taiji people are this.
There seems to be a serious disconnect between what I'm saying, and what you think I'm saying.
Personally, I've met a lot of taiji people that were old, young, etc.
Anyway, it's obvious that I can't show you guys the kind of respect you're expecting. So I probably just better quit posting.
You guys can have the last word now, if you so desire! LOL
When you call people who have been seriously studying an art 'geriatric hippies' you tend to come in for some good-natured ribbing. Get used to it, wushunut. You should probably count yourself lucky that Wushuer isn't right in front of you to bounce you around in case you need proof that this is a real martial art. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I wasn't calling you geriatric hippies. I was saying that people outside the taiji community think that most taiji people are this.
There seems to be a serious disconnect between what I'm saying, and what you think I'm saying.
Personally, I've met a lot of taiji people that were old, young, etc.
Anyway, it's obvious that I can't show you guys the kind of respect you're expecting. So I probably just better quit posting.
You guys can have the last word now, if you so desire! LOL
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JerryKarin
- Posts: 1067
- Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 7:01 am
- Contact: