Yang Fast Form (aka Long Boxing aka 59 movment)

[T]

Just for clarification purposes as it applies to the fast forms from Tung Ying Chieh

Fast form 1 comes from Yang style
Fast form 2 comes from a combination of Yang and Wu/Hao Style (not to be confused with Wu style)

Wu/Hao style comes from a combination of Chen and Yang

The Wu Style fast form come from the Wu family (not Wu/Hao) and the Wu families Taiji comes from Yang Luchan or Yang Banhou or both depending on whose lineage story you want to believe.

[Drew]

Greetings to Audi, Bob, and the rest of those who have posted to this topic. I am also a long-time Yang style practitioner. I have long been interested in the Yang family fast form, which I agree with the rest of the posters apparently comes from the Tung (now Dong family.) For those interested in learning the Yang family fast form attributed to Tung Yingjie (the one he developed based upon Yang Chen-fu's form) I recommend an excellent instructional video developed by Grandmaster Jesse Tsao. Here is the description of the DVD from the catalog:

"Yang Style Tai Chi Fast Form is a traditional practice with self-defense as its main focus. It trains the body in a dynamic energy flow, with agility in dodging, stepping and jumping along with solid strikes in flashing speed. The fast form is secretly carried forward by a limited population, as Tung Yingjie (one of Yang Chengfu's students) mentioned that the fast form is regarded as advanced-level training in old times. Tai Chi Healthways presents this routine for those who love to practice Tai Chi for martial arts applications. It is a good reference for home study, or a resource for instructor's teaching preparation."

The instruction is of the highest quality and is relatively easy to learn if one has some background in Yang style t'ai chi ch'uan. One of the things I have learned from this video is the variety of applications of each of the repeated moves in the Yang family long form. GM Tsao explains that each of the single whips has a different application, as do the wave hands like clouds series. For me, this alone makes studying the fast form valuable. In addition, the form has enabled me to express fajin while doing the actual form, as opposed to practicing fajin in small, repeated exercises. As Audi indicated, practicing the fast form also puts me in a different mind-set. I have always practiced the form as if an opponent is standing in front of me, and push hands as if no one is in front of me. However, when I practice the fast form, it is much easier to "see" and attack the opponent. I definitely have seen improvement in my push hands practice as a result of daily practice of the fast form, and my understanding of the traditional Yang family form has deepened as well.

I realize that a DVD is no substitute for live instruction. However, I studied intensively with GM Tsao for three years before moving from San Diego. For me, the DVD is almost like having him in my living room. Perhaps the DVD will not prove to be as instructive for those who are not familiar with GM Tsao. However, if you want to see if the DVD will work for you, you can preview it at http://taichihealthways.com/v_yangfast.htm.

Respectfully,

Drew

[T]

Umm…well….actually…. how do I put this…...

Don’t get me wrong, I like Jesse Tsao and his Chen videos are generally rather good and he breaks things down rather well. I have even considered contacting him to train the next time I am in San Diego (I also train Chen, just not as long as Yang)… but…. When I first saw his Yang fast form video my first thought was… “So that is how a Chen guy does Yang from Tung” My Shifu was not as kind…sorry

[BBTrip]

Greetings Bob,

Thanks for the link to the article on Wu Style Fast Boxing. http://taiji-europa.eu/tai-chi-taiji/ta ... chi-chuan/
I found these statement interesting.

Ma himself told me in 1992 when my teacher Li Liqun, one of Ma’s senior disciples formally introduced me to Ma and his wife Wu Ying Hua, that the form was the original form passed down from Yang Luchan to Quan You and then to Wu Jian Quan and finally to Ma himself.
Ma Yueh Liang has said that he had seen Yang Cheng Fu practicing the Kuai Quan form.

Like you said, the author of the article seems sincere, but, I wonder if this can ever be proven. Either way, the article is now another page to add to my Taiji book of info.

Thanks.

[BBTrip]

Greeting Drew,

Thanks for the Tips on Jesse tsao.
Though you say it’s Tung Fast Form, Jesse’s description of what he teaches as Fast Form doesn’t seem to explicitly say he is teaching Tung FF.

"Yang Style Tai Chi Fast Form is a traditional practice with self-defense as its main focus. It trains the body in a dynamic energy flow, with agility in dodging, stepping and jumping along with solid strikes in flashing speed. The fast form is secretly carried forward by a limited population, as Tung Yingjie (one of Yang Chengfu's students) mentioned that the fast form is regarded as advanced-level training in old times. Tai Chi Healthways presents this routine for those who love to practice Tai Chi for martial arts applications. It is a good reference for home study, or a resource for instructor's teaching preparation."

Maybe it's just me.

Anyway, I did find some differences in what Jesse does and what the Tung’s do.
I posted 3 example video’s for you to compare.

The first is Jesse’s
Yang Tai Chi Taiji Fast Form
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAmvStH5k4g

the 2nd is Master Kai Ying Tung
http://youtu.be/pKpGdA8I1r0?t=31m4s
31:04-- Single Whip

The third is Tung Hu Ling, Kai Ying’s father.
http://youtu.be/9jJ0eTawWzU?t=1m44s
1:44 mark --Single Whip

Kai Ying and his father are doing the Family Set and Jesse is doing the longer FF set. However, Both sets both start with Grasp Sparrows Tail –Single Whip.

To me, The Tung’s FF of Grasp Sparrows Tail thru Single Whip is different from Jesse’s.
I found Jess’s explanation of application of single whip also different; at Least different from what I have learned.

I’m not the final authority on all things Tung. I am just offering a comparison of Jesse’s FF and my meager knowledge of Tung’s Fast Form.

What’s really important is that you found value in what you were taught.

[BBTrip]

Another move from the FF helped me understand the intention of Playing the Lute.

Most demos of this application are done in a downward application. The FF application causes the Opponent’s front foot to lift so that he cannot apply power. It’s kind of like lifting him in the air using his wrist and elbow.

I’ll search for a video that shows what I mean.

I found of video example of Tung Hu Ling using Play The Lute in a Push Hands demo.

Tung Hu Ling Push Hands 1.WMV
http://youtu.be/AGfE6C18ePw?t=2m33s
2:33 mark

[T]

Maybe it's just me.

Its not jsut you

the 2nd is Master Kai Ying Tung
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKpGdA8I1r0
31:02-- Single Whip

The third is Tung Hu Ling, Kai Ying’s father.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jJ0eTawWzU
1:45 mark --Single Whip

Kai Ying and his father are doing the Family Set and Jesse is doing the longer FF set. However, Both sets both start with Grasp Sparrows Tail –Single Whip.

I did not get to watch the linked Tung Kai Ying video just yet due to its length, but I will soon I am sure it is rather good.

I have seen the Tung Hu Ling video before and that is Tung Ying Chieh's second fast form, not the one he called the Yang fast form. It is rather good but in that video Tung Hu Ling is shortening the step based on the area he is demonstrating in.

[T]

Another move from the FF helped me understand the intention of Playing the Lute.

Most demos of this application are done in a downward application. The FF application causes the Opponent’s front foot to lift so that he cannot apply power. It’s kind of like lifting him in the air using his wrist and elbow.

I’ll search for a video that shows what I mean.

I found of video example of Tung Hu Ling using Play The Lute in a Push Hands demo.

Tung Hu Ling Push Hands 1.WMV
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGfE6C18ePw
2:35 mark

Try doing push hands with my sifu.... at times it is not a whole lot different

Tung Hu Ling also liked High pat... I was doing push hands with my sifu once and he got me with that and I was laying on the ground...he smiled and said Tung Hu Ling did that to me once. All I thought was DAMN that was cool, but it also taught me the application

[Drew]

Hello to T and BBTrip,

Thanks for both your comments. I did review the videos of the Tung family members demonstrating the FF, and I agree that there appear to be many differences between what GM Tsao is doing and what they are doing. While GM Tsao does attribute the origin of the FF he teaches to Tung Ying-Chieh, it is likely that he has put his on "spin" on the form he demonstrates. I will say that I have seen the evolution of GM Tsao's taiji quan over the years. When I first began studying with him, his taiji was appeared to be more heavily influenced by the Li family, especially GM Li Deyin. As GM Tsao studied more intensively with the Chen family, in particular Chen Xiaowang and Chen Zhenglei, his taiji has become more "Chen-like."

I learned the first two Chen routines as well as Chen sword and Chen saber from GM Tsao. I also studied the Yang and Wu styles with him although I had learned Yang Wu styles years before. When I studied with GM Tsao, I felt he captured the flavor of each family style very nicely. However, since I have not had the opportunity to study with any of the Tung family members directly, I cannot say if GM Tsao's FF reflects the flavor of that family's taiji.

It does appear from the videos, however, that GM Tsao's FF is much more reflective of the 2nd Chen set (Cannon Fist). Still, I like practiciing the GM Tsao's FF form as it does give me the opportunity to express fajin, a bit of "stamping" and "leaping." Since I no longer practice the Chen routines, it lets me incorporate a bit of the old martial spirit into my daily practice. Also, as I mentioned in my preceding post, I have definitely noticed an increase in my ability to issue fajin in push hands since I began practicing this form.

Sincerely,

Drew

[BBTrip]

I did not get to watch the linked Tung Kai Ying video just yet due to its length, but I will soon I am sure it is rather good.

Greetings T,

You don't have to watch the whole video. I've reset the links to start at the specific time of the examples I have suggested for comparison. All you have to do is click on the links.
Use the links in my original posts because the updates were set after you posted.


Just as an FYI, you can always put your mouse over any youtube video timline (the part that the red button moves on) and then right click at a specified time and the video will play from the time you have picked.

Also, the time marks I specified, at the bottom of my suggested examples, are there for you to go to the time manually with your mouse. Don't forget to right click.

Forgive me if you already knew this.

[T]

I did not get to watch the linked Tung Kai Ying video just yet due to its length, but I will soon I am sure it is rather good.

Greetings T,

You don't have to watch the whole video. I've reset the links to start at the specific time of the examples I have suggested for comparison. All you have to do is click on the links.
Use the links in my original posts because the updates were set after you posted.


Just as an FYI, you can always put your mouse over any youtube video timline (the part that the red button moves on) and then right click at a specified time and the video will play from the time you have picked.

Also, the time marks I specified, at the bottom of my suggested examples, are there for you to go to the time manually with your mouse. Don't forget to right click.

Forgive me if you already knew this.

Thank You

Also I thought it might help to link these

Tung Family Set - posture names
http://www.tungkaiying.com/forms_family.shtml

Dong Family Fast Set Screen Shots (about half way down the page)
http://www.chipellis.com/Pictures/Tung- ... h-Pics.htm

[Audi]

Greetings,

Thanks to those that responded to my question a while back. I found the information quite interesting.

I doubt you intended it, but the wording of “your Fast Form” “your curriculum” has a certain implication that I cannot put into words. Separation, distance? This is an embrassingly insecure admission, but It slightly, only slightly makes me wonder: Does he want me to validate why I know Taiji Fast Form?

I apologize for allowing that implication. I used the phrase "your Fast Form" in lieu of saying "the Fast Form" and implying that there was only one generally recognized one. I have heard of several branches of Yang Style that practice fast forms that appear to differ in content and origin. I find discussions of authenticity less and less relevant to what I want to study and so was trying not to lead the discussion in that direction.

The Mind set? I observe the same Taiji principles and strategies I observe in the long form, and pushing hands.
I practice Taiji everyday. When I first learned it I practiced it everyday for years. I now practice the FF as time allows or as the feeling hits me.

I would expect this to be true and could quote the same about the various aspects of what I have been taught. On the other hand, there are substantial differences in the way I practice the "traditional barehand form," the sword from, the saber from, push hands, "single-movement" practice, solo Fajin, and partner Fajin. I apply the Ten Essentials differently to them. The rhythm, the speed, the footwork, the practice motive, the feeling, etc. are mostly quite distinct for me. My question was aimed at this aspect.

I think the FF is a good tool for any Practitioner to have in their Taiji tool box.

My own tool boxes are a mess, filled with too many tools that are wonderfully useful for applications I do not need or do not know how to do. As a minor cook that loves to buy cooking gadgets, I have learned the hard way not to consider buying a new gadget because of how wonderful it is by itself, but because of it how it will fit into my own cooking patterns and into my kitchen. As for advantages and disadvantages, what cooks well, may not clean well. What cleans well, may not nurture well. What nurtures well, may not store well. What stores well, may not cook well. For me, Tai Chi, tool boxes, and cooking utensils are often about choice.

Another move from the FF helped me understand the intention of Playing the Lute.

* * *
Most demos of this application are done in a downward application. The FF application causes the Opponent’s front foot to lift so that he cannot apply power. It’s kind of like lifting him in the air using his wrist and elbow.

The two applications I have been taught are actually both upward. One is the Ward Off described here and in the video you later posted. The other is an upward application of split of the opponent is pushing on my elbows. Could you describe a downward one?

I practice the Fast sets for the similar to the reason I practice Pushing hands. To improve my functional understanding of the 8 energies and 5 steps, sticking and listening, etc.
Before the FF sets I primarily won with yin, rollback, acceptance, borrowing. After the Fast Form set…hmm, I feel I have a better balance of Yin and Yang in my Taiji functionality.

I find that I put sticking and listening into my slow form, but I get my understanding mostly from Push Hands. I also pay attention to uses of the 8 energies, but I feel I again learned these mostly from Push Hands. I have also been taught or seen various ways to practice many of the form movements in Push Hands and that is where I felt I began to understand how they worked from an internal point of view. Since I do not practice a fast form, I do not know what would be the same or different for me so was curious about the experience of others.

If you are talking the fast forms as they come from Tung Ying Chieh then the first fast form is from the long form and it was based on discussions with Yang Chengfu that was about fajin in the forms. If you are talking the second fast form it is a combination of Yang and Wu/Hao and Wu/Hao comes from Yang and Chen. And the second fast set is really big on Qinna and I have been told Tung Ying Chieh liked Qinna so that is why it is there.

Thanks for this quite interesting information, but my question, at least, was not aimed at the origin of any of the forms and would be the same if a teacher happened to invent a fast form out of whole cloth with no basis at all in the traditional forms.

I was just doing my best with my limited communication skills to answer Audi’s questions about the Fast Form. In your judgment, my answers seem to be over thought. Maybe they are. But, they are my sincere attempt of answering Audi’s questions. They are strictly my personal view on why I value the Fast Form. And when they would be taught in the learning of Yang Style Taiji.

Thanks again for your answer.

So I went in search of anything I could find.
And I found this.
The gentleman seems sincere in his statements and I have no reason to doubt him but please read his article and make up your minds on the subject.
I hope this will help further the discussion if nothing else:
http://taiji-europa.eu/tai-chi-taiji/ta ... chi-chuan/

This was also quite helpful, even if I remain neutral about potentially conflicting claims about authenticity, primacy, etc.

I realize that a DVD is no substitute for live instruction. However, I studied intensively with GM Tsao for three years before moving from San Diego. For me, the DVD is almost like having him in my living room. Perhaps the DVD will not prove to be as instructive for those who are not familiar with GM Tsao. However, if you want to see if the DVD will work for you, you can preview it at http://taichihealthways.com/v_yangfast.htm.

This was an interesting preview. Maybe one day I can check out the video.

Take care,
Audi

[T]

If you are talking the fast forms as they come from Tung Ying Chieh then the first fast form is from the long form and it was based on discussions with Yang Chengfu that was about fajin in the forms. If you are talking the second fast form it is a combination of Yang and Wu/Hao and Wu/Hao comes from Yang and Chen. And the second fast set is really big on Qinna and I have been told Tung Ying Chieh liked Qinna so that is why it is there.

Thanks for this quite interesting information, but my question, at least, was not aimed at the origin of any of the forms and would be the same if a teacher happened to invent a fast form out of whole cloth with no basis at all in the traditional forms.

Actually that was not posted to answer your question, that was posted prior to your question and it was posted in response to the prior discussion that had occurred between Lao tse and Louis Swaim, you were not in the conversation at that time. My answer to your question came later

[BBTrip]

Greetings Audi,

I doubt you intended it, but the wording of “your Fast Form” “your curriculum” has a certain implication that I cannot put into words. Separation, distance? This is an embrassingly insecure admission, but It slightly, only slightly makes me wonder: Does he want me to validate why I know Taiji Fast Form?

I apologize for allowing that implication. I used the phrase "your Fast Form" in lieu of saying "the Fast Form" and implying that there was only one generally recognized one. I have heard of several branches of Yang Style that practice fast forms that appear to differ in content and origin. I find discussions of authenticity less and less relevant to what I want to study and so was trying not to lead the discussion in that direction.

I totally understand.

The Mind set? I observe the same Taiji principles and strategies I observe in the long form, and pushing hands.
I practice Taiji everyday. When I first learned it I practiced it everyday for years. I now practice the FF as time allows or as the feeling hits me.

I would expect this to be true and could quote the same about the various aspects of what I have been taught. On the other hand, there are substantial differences in the way I practice the "traditional barehand form," the sword from, the saber from, push hands, "single-movement" practice, solo Fajin, and partner Fajin. I apply the Ten Essentials differently to them. The rhythm, the speed, the footwork, the practice motive, the feeling, etc. are mostly quite distinct for me. My question was aimed at this aspect.

When learning, I too, divide things in order to know more, to understand better. Once I refine the basic requirements, I search for the pivot, the hinge; the principle pattern that Taiji is based on: yin yang, open close, empty full, etc.

I base my Long Form, Push Hands, Fast Form, free sparring, on one thing: open close, full empty. All of those things I divided fit under either open or close, empty or full.

I think the FF is a good tool for any Practitioner to have in their Taiji tool box.

My own tool boxes are a mess, filled with too many tools that are wonderfully useful for applications I do not need or do not know how to do. As a minor cook that loves to buy cooking gadgets, I have learned the hard way not to consider buying a new gadget because of how wonderful it is by itself, but because of it how it will fit into my own cooking patterns and into my kitchen. As for advantages and disadvantages, what cooks well, may not clean well. What cleans well, may not nurture well. What nurtures well, may not store well. What stores well, may not cook well. For me, Tai Chi, tool boxes, and cooking utensils are often about choice.

Honestly, I am not sure what you mean by the above. Are you implying the Fast Form is like a new kitchen gadget that will messy your Taiji toolbox? If this is what you were trying to say earlier, please know my responses to your questions do not address that view. I am not trying to convert you into a Fast Form believer. If I gave you that impression, that was not my intention.
My statement, “Taiji Fast Form is a good tool for a practitioner’s toolbox”, is just a summary of my answers to your questions.

Another move from the FF helped me understand the intention of Playing the Lute.

* * *

Most demos of this application are done in a downward application. The FF application causes the Opponent’s front foot to lift so that he cannot apply power. It’s kind of like lifting him in the air using his wrist and elbow.

The two applications I have been taught are actually both upward. One is the Ward Off described here and in the video you later posted. The other is an upward application of split of the opponent is pushing on my elbows. Could you describe a downward one?

I offer up the following to answer your above question only.
I am not suggesting that the downward application of Playing the Lute is wrong. Nor, am I saying those that teach it that way are wrong. There is not a hidden agenda. There are multiple applications for each Taiji posture.

Here are 3 examples of Playing the Lute demonstrated in a downward fashion.

http://youtu.be/x_luDzL03vw?t=1m12s
use your mouse to go to the 1:12 mark.

http://youtu.be/qLIFyxLVl7Q?t=2m35s
The example starts at the 2:35 mark.

Under the heading called Part III of the video, Traditional Yang Family Style Taijiquan, Yang Zhenduo demonstrates Playing the Lute on Yang Jun. Zhenduo’s front hand does go upward and his rear hand plucks downward causing Yang Jun’s knees to bend downward toward Yang Zhenduo.

In the example I posted in my earlier post, the application of playing the Lute is different. It seems to more closely match Chengfu’s description in METHODS OF APPLYING TAIJI BOXING http://brennantranslation.wordpress.com ... hiyong-fa/.
Chengfu's description can be found under the heading: 對敵圖
PHOTOS OF DEALING WITH AN OPPONENT, 7. Application of PLAY THE LUTE.



In the demo picture accompanying the text, the front leg of the opponent is straight; the opponent is thrown away from the defender. In the other examples, I spoke of or linked to; the opponent’s front knees bend and the opponenst are drawn toward their defenders.
Though either is fine, I gained a sudden understanding from that difference of direction and effect on the opponent.
I learned that directly from the Fast Form.

I practice the Fast sets for the similar to the reason I practice Pushing hands. To improve my functional understanding of the 8 energies and 5 steps, sticking and listening, etc.
Before the FF sets I primarily won with yin, rollback, acceptance, borrowing. After the Fast Form set…hmm, I feel I have a better balance of Yin and Yang in my Taiji functionality.

I find that I put sticking and listening into my slow form, but I get my understanding mostly from Push Hands. I also pay attention to uses of the 8 energies, but I feel I again learned these mostly from Push Hands. I have also been taught or seen various ways to practice many of the form movements in Push Hands and that is where I felt I began to understand how they worked from an internal point of view. Since I do not practice a fast form, I do not know what would be the same or different for me so was curious about the experience of others.

In my experience, how does the Fast Form differ from the Long Form and Push Hands? In a very narrow and simplistic sense, I would say the following.

1. The Long Form is the foundation. It’s requirements are the 10 important points done with regularity, consistency in movement. It’s pace and height of the stance is rarely changes. I’d call it the great consistency. It is not suddenly high or low, fast or slow.

2. My experience in the difference between the Fast Form and Push Hands?
For me, Push Hands is a noncompetitive training exercise. An exercise where I develop and practice sensing the energy of an opponent. Though some use it for competition that is not what I use it for.

Thinking of Push Hands as a noncompetitive training exercise makes it easier for me to stay away from developing bad habits while focusing learning the 8 energies and training my waist.
The sensitivity learned from Push Hands is the soft foundation for my applications.
The sensitivity I developed from Push Hands informs my practical applications. For me Push Hands is a 2 or 3 stage distance from practical application.

3. The Fast Form is another stage in development. Like you, I practice sticking and yielding in my Long Form and play as if an opponent is in front of me. But, I play the Long Form in an even pace and height of the stance rarely changes, etc.

In the Fast Form, each movement has a martial application. It's mix of slow and fast movement is useful in the practice and development of explosive movement.
With it, you can practice gathering then explosively release energy. Soft movement, followed by an explosive movement.
Softness to nutralize and trap the opponent in a disadvantageous position; explosive quickness to take advantage of the opportunity.

The Fast Form allows me to practice Taiji applications until they are second nature. Until that way of reacting has become "second nature," and requires no thought.
Much like a boxer who practices their jab, right cross, uppercut, etc., until they are second nature.

Then you'd move on to the final 2 stages.
Though most do not need or want the final 2 stages.

The Long Form and Push Hands are great for building a sound and sensitive body. And that is more than enough for most.

Peace.


Note: Again, I must emphasize that all my responses to Audi's questions about the FF are strictly my personal view. A view that is based on my meager knowledge of the Fast Form.
The people who could answer questions best about the Fast Form are listed in my earlier posts within this thread.

[Bob Ashmore]

Hi everyone,
I wanted to post an update on the video I previously mentioned and my search for my VHS player.
I found it. It wasn't easy. I'll just leave it there, no reason to talk about how disorganized my storage unit has become.
I now have the video and the player located in the same room.
However that's as far as I've gotten, I still have to hook up the player and play the movie.
I am hoping to get that done this weekend.
I don't know that I can, but I am hoping to.
I'll post what I find there as soon as I can get to it, if I find anything.

BB,
I have an ongoing theme with my students that sounds pretty much like what you've said about applications; "There are multiple applications for each Taiji posture."
I think you have seriously understated this, actually. In my opinion there are dozens, if not hundreds, of applications for each and every named form and all of the transitions as well.
I teach an applications class on Monday nights and my students just don't seem to understand my humor when I'm asked "What is the application for {insert posture name here}" and I answer with, "How much time do we have left?"
This week I was demonstrating applications for Step Back to Ride Tiger and then I moved on to the transition into Double Lotus Kick. When I showed a simple application for the first bit of the transition one of my students said something to the effect of, "What else could you do with that?"
So...
I showed him another application.
Then I showed him another one.
And another one.
And another one.
And I kept on going.
For about a half an hour before he finally said, "OK! OK! I get it. There's a ton of applications for that."
Then he said, "So.... What do you do with that spin?"
And...
Off we went.
When I showed him how the "spin" doesn't have to "spin" he pretty much stopped me and said he had too much to process in one day already. I had to agree.
Hey now! It's not MY fault there's a thousand ways to apply every movement in the form!!!!
Which certainly keeps it interesting.

No epiphanies, just putting in my two cents on a Friday afternoon.

Bob