Yang Fast Form (aka Long Boxing aka 59 movment)
Re: Yang Fast Form (aka Long Boxing aka 59 movment)
I ordered the Fast Form DVD from Jesse. It is the entire yang form. I don't know if he created it or was taught it. I really like it and plan on trying to learn. I also ordered his Traditional Form training DVDs and like them a lot too.
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Sugelanren
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:19 pm
Re: Yang Fast Form (aka Long Boxing aka 59 movment)
Hi there. I feel ill equiped to comment due to the experience of those who commented before me, however i will soldier on.
Our club teaches a form that is sometimes called a "Fast form", I have yet to learn it, but will be travelling to Hamburg in September to learn it for the first time. The form is called "Cheung Kuen Se Ying", but was originally called "Cheung Kuen", before it was further developed by GM Ip. "Cheung Kuen" was taught to him, "Cheung Kuen Se Ying" was his progression.
Maybe when i've had my first session of learning it i will be able to comment further, but as it is not the original, i'm not sure it would help the discussion. The original was transmitted to our late GM by Yang Shouzhong. Not sure if this is the same form yous speak of though.
Our club teaches a form that is sometimes called a "Fast form", I have yet to learn it, but will be travelling to Hamburg in September to learn it for the first time. The form is called "Cheung Kuen Se Ying", but was originally called "Cheung Kuen", before it was further developed by GM Ip. "Cheung Kuen" was taught to him, "Cheung Kuen Se Ying" was his progression.
Maybe when i've had my first session of learning it i will be able to comment further, but as it is not the original, i'm not sure it would help the discussion. The original was transmitted to our late GM by Yang Shouzhong. Not sure if this is the same form yous speak of though.
Re: Yang Fast Form (aka Long Boxing aka 59 movment)
Hi all,
Thanks Sugelanren for your contribution. Curiously, I believe "Cheung Kuen" is Cantonese and translates as Mandarin "Chang Quan" (长拳) or "Long Boxing." This would make perhaps the third or fourth form I have heard referred to as "Chang Quan." If I am correct in this, it further shows that different lineages use the same words to refer to potentially different things.
Take care,
Audi
Thanks Sugelanren for your contribution. Curiously, I believe "Cheung Kuen" is Cantonese and translates as Mandarin "Chang Quan" (长拳) or "Long Boxing." This would make perhaps the third or fourth form I have heard referred to as "Chang Quan." If I am correct in this, it further shows that different lineages use the same words to refer to potentially different things.
Take care,
Audi
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Sugelanren
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:19 pm
Re: Yang Fast Form (aka Long Boxing aka 59 movment)
Hi there Audi.
All i can do to shine any further light on the subject is copy/paste the descriptive article from Master Ding's site. I will be going over to Hamburg in September, so maybe after that i will be able to help more. It should be noted that the form (the snake form) is not the same as the "Snake style" that Bob Boyd claims to teach. To be honest, i have been told that the tai chi community was not overly pleased with Bob, but i have no idea or want to know about this really. I know Our master kept away from that, and i try not to speak for him or even our club when i talk about Taichi...it's hardly my place. What i am posting here is freely available on Master Ding's website, so it should be ok to post.
..................
The Snake form owes its creation to Grandmaster Ip Tai Tak - an extraordinary man whose single minded pursuit of excellence led him to be accepted as the first disciple of Yang Sau Chung, fourth generation of Yang Family Tai Chi Chuan. Through years of close and uncompromising Gau Sau (exchange of hands) with his mentor, Grandmaster Ip Tai Tak gained vast practical and theoretical experience - rare knowledge and understanding of the traditional method that could only be achieved with a lifetime of disciplined and devoted practice. After the death of his master, he remained faithful to the study, practice and development of Tai Chi Chuan. Like those in the tradition before him, he continued to explore and thus to expand the boundaries of Tai Chi Chuan.
Grandmaster Ip Tai Tak was a loyal traditionalist but was also a pragmatic innovator. He maintained throughout his life that the Traditional Long Form must remain faithful to its origins. This approach would ensure that lineage holders would pass on true historical transmissions from one generation to the next. However far from just didactic preservation of subject matter, Grandmaster Ip held a firm belief that Tai Chi Chuan had no boundaries and as such he would devote himself to ‘yeen gau’ (to investigate or research) it’s full potential.
This ideology meant that the shorter form known as the Cheung Kuen was chosen to be developed further. The Cheung Kuen was to become the platform from which evolution and hence progression could occur. Merging the traditional knowledge that had been passed to him through hands-on application together with the growing body of deeper and refined concepts led to changes in the emphasis and application of the Cheung Kuen. Movements from the Yang Ban Hau lineage were reintroduced back into the form, as well as introducing newer concepts such as the Tai Chi Circle and Lin Chee Bo.
The result of repeated refinement gave rise to a form that may appear simple to the onlooker, yet hidden within is an unforgiving, complex and profound practical and theoretical system that will allow the practitioner to develop and mature on many levels. Those who learnt the form, very quickly realized its characteristically uncompromising and tortuous nature, and soon after it became known as ‘Cheung Kuen Se Ying’ – literally translated as the Long Fist Snake Shape/Form.
Cheung Kuen Se Ying is a form that is as powerful as it is subtle. True to the perception of the snake’s attributes, externally the form is carried out entirely in a low stance, with smooth yet full transition between substantial and insubstantial weighting. Postures are based on a triangular arrangement, with the two feet representing two points of the triangle and the leading hand, being angular, representing the third. Its postures are also compact with close hand movements that work synergistically with the movements of the Tai Chi Circle. Internally the mind is focussed (‘Yi’) but quiet (‘Cheng’) facilitating the mental intent that is required for Chi to circulate more effectively – Yi Dou Chi Dou. Both the physical and mental processes allow the Chi energy to gather into the bones, making them stronger and heavier and thus develop the practitioner’s internal power.
Like the Traditional Long Form before it, each movement of the Snake Form contains within it an abundant breadth of potent combat application. Having the privilege to access the higher aspects of internal training through the correct use of the principles and concepts behind the Snake Form coupled with the traditional transmission of regular exchange of hands, the practitioner has the potential to translate his practice into powerful and deadly martial application. Both powerfully direct and subtlety deflective, Cheung Kuen Se Ying is ideally placed for nurturing the martial aspects of the art.
Cheung Kuen Se Ying then, is a form that has the potential to deliver some of the higher aspects of Tai Chi Chuan. However one must be mindful of the fact that this can only be achieved once certain prerequisites have been met. Like the roof top at the pinnacle of any tall construction, to be stable, it must first be borne of solid foundations. This is no different in Tai Chi Chuan. Therefore there must be sound comprehension of the triad consisting of the Traditional Long Form, Chi Kung and Pushing Hands, before the practitioner can begin to appreciate, understand and then absorb the Snake Form’s transmissions. Much like learning the Traditional Long Form, the Snake form is not simply the act of learning sequences of movement. It is not a form that can just be learnt superficially and archived with a library of other forms. Instead, like the Long Form, an able Sifu must first show its movements to the student and then guide him to realize the many hidden and unseen subtleties. It must then be practiced, used and reused to unlock its deeper qualities.
.................................
I hope this helps the conversation. When i go to learn this, i will ask if the original form is still being taught in our club (i could've asked last night, but i never saw your post).
Peace.
All i can do to shine any further light on the subject is copy/paste the descriptive article from Master Ding's site. I will be going over to Hamburg in September, so maybe after that i will be able to help more. It should be noted that the form (the snake form) is not the same as the "Snake style" that Bob Boyd claims to teach. To be honest, i have been told that the tai chi community was not overly pleased with Bob, but i have no idea or want to know about this really. I know Our master kept away from that, and i try not to speak for him or even our club when i talk about Taichi...it's hardly my place. What i am posting here is freely available on Master Ding's website, so it should be ok to post.
..................
The Snake form owes its creation to Grandmaster Ip Tai Tak - an extraordinary man whose single minded pursuit of excellence led him to be accepted as the first disciple of Yang Sau Chung, fourth generation of Yang Family Tai Chi Chuan. Through years of close and uncompromising Gau Sau (exchange of hands) with his mentor, Grandmaster Ip Tai Tak gained vast practical and theoretical experience - rare knowledge and understanding of the traditional method that could only be achieved with a lifetime of disciplined and devoted practice. After the death of his master, he remained faithful to the study, practice and development of Tai Chi Chuan. Like those in the tradition before him, he continued to explore and thus to expand the boundaries of Tai Chi Chuan.
Grandmaster Ip Tai Tak was a loyal traditionalist but was also a pragmatic innovator. He maintained throughout his life that the Traditional Long Form must remain faithful to its origins. This approach would ensure that lineage holders would pass on true historical transmissions from one generation to the next. However far from just didactic preservation of subject matter, Grandmaster Ip held a firm belief that Tai Chi Chuan had no boundaries and as such he would devote himself to ‘yeen gau’ (to investigate or research) it’s full potential.
This ideology meant that the shorter form known as the Cheung Kuen was chosen to be developed further. The Cheung Kuen was to become the platform from which evolution and hence progression could occur. Merging the traditional knowledge that had been passed to him through hands-on application together with the growing body of deeper and refined concepts led to changes in the emphasis and application of the Cheung Kuen. Movements from the Yang Ban Hau lineage were reintroduced back into the form, as well as introducing newer concepts such as the Tai Chi Circle and Lin Chee Bo.
The result of repeated refinement gave rise to a form that may appear simple to the onlooker, yet hidden within is an unforgiving, complex and profound practical and theoretical system that will allow the practitioner to develop and mature on many levels. Those who learnt the form, very quickly realized its characteristically uncompromising and tortuous nature, and soon after it became known as ‘Cheung Kuen Se Ying’ – literally translated as the Long Fist Snake Shape/Form.
Cheung Kuen Se Ying is a form that is as powerful as it is subtle. True to the perception of the snake’s attributes, externally the form is carried out entirely in a low stance, with smooth yet full transition between substantial and insubstantial weighting. Postures are based on a triangular arrangement, with the two feet representing two points of the triangle and the leading hand, being angular, representing the third. Its postures are also compact with close hand movements that work synergistically with the movements of the Tai Chi Circle. Internally the mind is focussed (‘Yi’) but quiet (‘Cheng’) facilitating the mental intent that is required for Chi to circulate more effectively – Yi Dou Chi Dou. Both the physical and mental processes allow the Chi energy to gather into the bones, making them stronger and heavier and thus develop the practitioner’s internal power.
Like the Traditional Long Form before it, each movement of the Snake Form contains within it an abundant breadth of potent combat application. Having the privilege to access the higher aspects of internal training through the correct use of the principles and concepts behind the Snake Form coupled with the traditional transmission of regular exchange of hands, the practitioner has the potential to translate his practice into powerful and deadly martial application. Both powerfully direct and subtlety deflective, Cheung Kuen Se Ying is ideally placed for nurturing the martial aspects of the art.
Cheung Kuen Se Ying then, is a form that has the potential to deliver some of the higher aspects of Tai Chi Chuan. However one must be mindful of the fact that this can only be achieved once certain prerequisites have been met. Like the roof top at the pinnacle of any tall construction, to be stable, it must first be borne of solid foundations. This is no different in Tai Chi Chuan. Therefore there must be sound comprehension of the triad consisting of the Traditional Long Form, Chi Kung and Pushing Hands, before the practitioner can begin to appreciate, understand and then absorb the Snake Form’s transmissions. Much like learning the Traditional Long Form, the Snake form is not simply the act of learning sequences of movement. It is not a form that can just be learnt superficially and archived with a library of other forms. Instead, like the Long Form, an able Sifu must first show its movements to the student and then guide him to realize the many hidden and unseen subtleties. It must then be practiced, used and reused to unlock its deeper qualities.
.................................
I hope this helps the conversation. When i go to learn this, i will ask if the original form is still being taught in our club (i could've asked last night, but i never saw your post).
Peace.
Re: Yang Fast Form (aka Long Boxing aka 59 movment)
Hello,
I too study in a Yang Sau Chung lineage school. While I have not yet learned the form, I know of it as it is part of our curriculum. The Changquan Form is not usually referred to as "Fast Form" in the lineage. The english translation is "Long Boxing", I have heard it referred to as Yang Lu Chan's fighting form. It is typically taught after about 5 years after going through all the main weapons (spear, dao, jian) and push hand training. Below is a video of one of Jim Uglow's students (Chu King Hung and Yang Ma Li). It appears that outside the lineage, some other Yang Style schools know it as seen in the second video (Tseng Ju Pai). As you can see the execution can vary quite a bit.
http://youtu.be/3jizDLvzjtk
http://youtu.be/jk3xRfgHAqY
I too study in a Yang Sau Chung lineage school. While I have not yet learned the form, I know of it as it is part of our curriculum. The Changquan Form is not usually referred to as "Fast Form" in the lineage. The english translation is "Long Boxing", I have heard it referred to as Yang Lu Chan's fighting form. It is typically taught after about 5 years after going through all the main weapons (spear, dao, jian) and push hand training. Below is a video of one of Jim Uglow's students (Chu King Hung and Yang Ma Li). It appears that outside the lineage, some other Yang Style schools know it as seen in the second video (Tseng Ju Pai). As you can see the execution can vary quite a bit.
http://youtu.be/3jizDLvzjtk
http://youtu.be/jk3xRfgHAqY
Re: Yang Fast Form (aka Long Boxing aka 59 movment)
My teacher's teacher was the last disciple of Grandmaster Wu Tunan （吴图南）. Grandmaster Wu learnt Wu style Taiji from Grandmaster Wu Jianquan （吴鉴泉）, and later studied under Grandmaster Yang Shaohou （杨少侯）to learn the Yang style "Yongjia".
We are taught that the Taiji slow routine ("练架") we normally practiced helps to build foundation, while the Yongjia focuses on application, as the name "用架" implies. It is important to take note that fast form does not mean simply speeding up the Taiji slow routine. Below is the youtube link to a glimpse of Grandmaster Li Lian performing the Yongjia at his disciple-acceptance ceremony.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvW_H3-fYgg
I am sure there is some form of fast Taiji form in Yang style, just that it is not commonly taught.
We are taught that the Taiji slow routine ("练架") we normally practiced helps to build foundation, while the Yongjia focuses on application, as the name "用架" implies. It is important to take note that fast form does not mean simply speeding up the Taiji slow routine. Below is the youtube link to a glimpse of Grandmaster Li Lian performing the Yongjia at his disciple-acceptance ceremony.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvW_H3-fYgg
I am sure there is some form of fast Taiji form in Yang style, just that it is not commonly taught.