Back in the late 1980s I visited St. Louis, MO (USA) and played for a short while with a large heavy ball that Tuey Staples had suspended from the ceiling in his basement. It was made of fiberglass and could be filled to various weights, and with a pulley system that he had the height of the ball could be changed. I do not remember the weight that he had it at when I practiced, but I think that it could have been around 250-300 pounds (it was heavy enough that it could push you over if directly meeting its mass). I could see the potential value for solo training with this implement but have never had one made for myself.
Brennan translated a book this February that presents training equipment for solo training and has linked to several YouTube videos that show the author using his equipment:
https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... equipment/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YG4EbzCse8
Solo Push Hands?
Re: Solo Push Hands?
Hi, AudiAudi wrote:..... whether it is possible to learn or practice push hands without a partner or a teacher. My own feeling is that this is not really possible; however, once you have a certain foundation, doing solo form or other exercises can indeed improve your push hands.
Before I found my current solution, ......What I did was roll around a Swiss exercise ball against a wall, using both sides of my forearms and my palms. What I got from doing this was a little sense of the different pressures that were possible and how to feel them throughout my frame. I also got a sense of how closely and consistently one must stick to maintain the desired pressure.
These exercise balls have a slightly sticky surface that gives good feedback during rotations. It does not allow any slippage. This characteristic made clearer for me one reason why Taiji sticking requires such precise rotation.
.... I do not think it is really possible to learn or practice beginning push hands without a partner; however, I think this exercise can still give a taste for those who have no other alternative and little experience of the real thing. By rolling back and forth among Push, Rollback, Press, and Wardoff, you can get some sense of what Push Hands trains and how these jins might be used.
Take care,
Audi
You have the right idea about "once you have a certain foundation" and "roll around a Swiss exercise ball against a wall, using both sides of my forearms and my palms." However, to my understanding about push-hand, you only have the yang effect but not the yin.
May I shed some light on the principles of push-hand. Even though, the term "push-hand" only has the word "push" in it. However, one must not neglect the "pull" to complete the yin-yang cycle. The idea is when one pushes forward the other pulls backward. So to speak. In push-hand, the hands of both partners have to be in contact constantly. There should be ZERO pressure on the point of contact. As soon one makes a mistake by applying pressure at the point of contact, the other will feel the pressure and pull back with an opportunity to use a countermeasure.
The hands of both partners should stay in contact by maintain zero pressure at the point of contact. It was known as "sticky hand." If the pressure was sensed from the hand of the partner, it was known as "ting jin."
Now, going back to your exercise with the Swiss ball. Rotating the ball on the wall is only allow one the push, in order, to keep the ball in place. As you said: "What I got from doing this was a little sense of the different pressures that were possible." Unfortunately, the little sense of the different pressure violates the principle of zero pressure at the point of contact. To accomplish the zero pressure at the point of contact, the ball has to move away from the wall and follow the moving hand. Hence, when both objects are moving in the same direction with the same speed at the same time, then the point of contact may have zero pressure.
To answer your OP, the solo push-hand can be accomplished by use a pendulum with a weighted object. While the pendulum is moving back and forth, by placing the hand in contact with the weight and move along with it at the same speed. As long as the speed are the same, the point of contact will have zero pressure. If one have sensed the pressure of the weight on the way back, then one had lost the concentration.
There is also an advance way to practice with a pendulum. Have the pendulum swing back and forth, apply the hand to make contact with the weight on the way back, and be sure that the pressure weight was not felt by the hand. The idea is to move the hand in front of the weight in the same direction by letting the weight to move close the the hand and make contact. Keep trying until one does not feel the pressure when the weight makes contact with the hand.
Here is an idea how to make a pendulum. Use a three(3"d) pipe and 8 to 10 inches long with caps on both ends. Drill a hole on one of the caps. Attache a screw eye bolt with two nuts to the cap with a chain for hinging. The length of the chain should be adjustable for variable height. Also, use a towel to wrap around the pipe so it doesn't hurt the hand so much during contact.
A deep discussion requires explicit details for a good comprehension of a complex subject.
Re: Solo Push Hands?
"These exercise balls have a slightly sticky surface that gives good feedback during rotations. It does not allow any slippage. This characteristic made clearer for me one reason why Taiji sticking requires such precise rotation."
In push-hand, please do not take the word "stick" like glue literally. It simply means that the hands of both partners are staying in contact at all times. In other words, both hands are in contact when going back and forth. As soon the other changes direction, one will sense that there is an intend for the change by ting jin(聽勁). Immediately, one will follow the direction of the other instead of loose contact. While both are moving in the same direction with the same speed, the pressure at the point of contact is zero. If one push a little more than the other, then the other will sense a pushing force.
The ability in sensing a slightest pushing force of the opponent is what Ting Jin is all about. Fa Jin is easy but not to Fa Jin is not so easy. For example, by making others not to feel a thing while in contact is not an easy thing to do. It requires the high skill of a push-hand practitioner to accomplish such task. Literally speaking, one is pushing without applying any force. For a novice, as soon one feels a tiny resistance, then draw the hand back immediately to feel zero resistance again but stay in contact.
In push-hand, please do not take the word "stick" like glue literally. It simply means that the hands of both partners are staying in contact at all times. In other words, both hands are in contact when going back and forth. As soon the other changes direction, one will sense that there is an intend for the change by ting jin(聽勁). Immediately, one will follow the direction of the other instead of loose contact. While both are moving in the same direction with the same speed, the pressure at the point of contact is zero. If one push a little more than the other, then the other will sense a pushing force.
The ability in sensing a slightest pushing force of the opponent is what Ting Jin is all about. Fa Jin is easy but not to Fa Jin is not so easy. For example, by making others not to feel a thing while in contact is not an easy thing to do. It requires the high skill of a push-hand practitioner to accomplish such task. Literally speaking, one is pushing without applying any force. For a novice, as soon one feels a tiny resistance, then draw the hand back immediately to feel zero resistance again but stay in contact.
A deep discussion requires explicit details for a good comprehension of a complex subject.
Re: Solo Push Hands?
While there are many Yang style schools that take your approach, it is not universal. I happen to disagree with the ‘no force’ approach. My understanding is that we want to differentiate yin and yang when contacted and that a yin+yin approach can be as bad as a yang+yang one (both yin+yin and yang+yang fit my understanding of ‘double weighted’). We want both no excess AND no deficiency. We want yin+yang (or emptiness + fullness).
Some quotes from Brennan’s latest translation (of Chu Minyi’s 1929 book):
https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... equipment/
While it can be good practice to maintain constant pressure at a point of contact throughout an interaction, my understanding is that the starting level of pressure can be infinitely variable; from minimal through great. The goal for me is to receive all levels of pressure with a ‘rounded’ energy which separates yin from yang (yin on one side of the contact point and yang on the other, i.e. like a circle or sphere – think of a ball rotating when touched, one side will go towards the point of contact [yang] while the opposite side goes away from the point of contact [yin]) even if the contact point maintains a constant pressure.
Personally I think that even in the no force end of the spectrum one can have differentiation of yin and yang (everywhere an emptiness and a fullness) if one pivots and/or rotates around the point of contact. But I also want to be able to respond in a similar manner to a great force! In order to gain the full spectrum of abilities (the ability to operate on the entire s-curve of the taiji diagram) I need to perfect my structure in order to manage great forces, and I also need to practice my sensitivity with the minimal force.
I do not know where the idea came from that one should practice ONLY yin (no force) rather than practicing it as one necessary extreme on the spectrum of possible force. Since most practitioners would probably react early in their training more on the yang end of the spectrum, it makes sense to emphasize the yin most extreme. But I think that practitioners should also practice with great power in order to test and improve their structure and energy with the goal of also being able to control forces greater than they could when a beginning student. I personally want the ability to operate as close to the full spectrum as I can, which means practicing at both extremes of force as well as the more typical intermediate levels of force.
Some quotes from Brennan’s latest translation (of Chu Minyi’s 1929 book):
https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... equipment/
Furthermore, the various movements all have a round shape, for it is within a circle that the transformations of emptiness and fullness are generated. The art’s limitless subtleties lie within these changes of emptiness and fullness.
My understanding is that we want to always be on the s-curve of the Taiji diagram dividing the yin from the yang (differentiating yin from yang by having yin on a side of the force at the point of contact with an opponent, and simultaneously having yang on the other side). But the ends of the s-curve touch both extremes of yin and yang, as well as the infinite levels of force in-between these two extremes.Empty and full must be distinguished clearly. In each part there is a part that is empty and a part that is full. Everywhere it is always like this, an emptiness and a fullness.
While it can be good practice to maintain constant pressure at a point of contact throughout an interaction, my understanding is that the starting level of pressure can be infinitely variable; from minimal through great. The goal for me is to receive all levels of pressure with a ‘rounded’ energy which separates yin from yang (yin on one side of the contact point and yang on the other, i.e. like a circle or sphere – think of a ball rotating when touched, one side will go towards the point of contact [yang] while the opposite side goes away from the point of contact [yin]) even if the contact point maintains a constant pressure.
Personally I think that even in the no force end of the spectrum one can have differentiation of yin and yang (everywhere an emptiness and a fullness) if one pivots and/or rotates around the point of contact. But I also want to be able to respond in a similar manner to a great force! In order to gain the full spectrum of abilities (the ability to operate on the entire s-curve of the taiji diagram) I need to perfect my structure in order to manage great forces, and I also need to practice my sensitivity with the minimal force.
I do not know where the idea came from that one should practice ONLY yin (no force) rather than practicing it as one necessary extreme on the spectrum of possible force. Since most practitioners would probably react early in their training more on the yang end of the spectrum, it makes sense to emphasize the yin most extreme. But I think that practitioners should also practice with great power in order to test and improve their structure and energy with the goal of also being able to control forces greater than they could when a beginning student. I personally want the ability to operate as close to the full spectrum as I can, which means practicing at both extremes of force as well as the more typical intermediate levels of force.
Re: Solo Push Hands?
Greetings, DPasekWhile there are many Yang style schools that take your approach, it is not universal. I happen to disagree with the ‘no force’ approach.
Thank you for your response! Are we talking about push-hand or Tai Ji in general? May I hear your understanding what ting jin(聽勁) is all about?
Peace!
A deep discussion requires explicit details for a good comprehension of a complex subject.
Re: Solo Push Hands?
The yin + yang should be the same for both solo form and push-hands, although it is easier to feel and understand when interacting with someone or something else.
Ting jin is normally translated as listening energy, and I think that is fine, but there can be more implications when used specifically for Taijiquan. Just like the physical nature of yin + yang, there is also a mental factor that comes into play.
Here are some additional quotes from Brennan’s translation of Chu Minyi’s 1929 book:
In respect to ting jin, this would mean that we maintain our mental ‘center’ so that we can perceive the true conditions without judgmental biases (likes, dislikes, anticipations, expectations, routines, habits, emotions like anger and fear, etc.). In order to have ting jin we need our mental state to be ‘neutral’ (or centered). We do not want a mental state where we DISLIKE forceful contact since then we would no longer be mentally neutral. If the actual condition is contact without force, then that should be fine with us, but so should other conditions.
I hope that the above answers your questions.
Ting jin is normally translated as listening energy, and I think that is fine, but there can be more implications when used specifically for Taijiquan. Just like the physical nature of yin + yang, there is also a mental factor that comes into play.
Here are some additional quotes from Brennan’s translation of Chu Minyi’s 1929 book:
Taiji Boxing’s movements are endlessly circular. As your balance lies at the center of a circle, you will always be standing stably on your heels.
Here he addresses the ‘center’ and how that corresponds to our stability. The center is also ‘neutral’ since it is neither yin nor yang (yin and yang are produced by the movement around the center). The following version of the taiji diagram may be a better illustration of this:Because the movements are round, you can always have a stable center. With a stable center, you will have a solid base. And you will then have no worries about someone attacking you with external strength.
In respect to ting jin, this would mean that we maintain our mental ‘center’ so that we can perceive the true conditions without judgmental biases (likes, dislikes, anticipations, expectations, routines, habits, emotions like anger and fear, etc.). In order to have ting jin we need our mental state to be ‘neutral’ (or centered). We do not want a mental state where we DISLIKE forceful contact since then we would no longer be mentally neutral. If the actual condition is contact without force, then that should be fine with us, but so should other conditions.
I hope that the above answers your questions.
Re: Solo Push Hands?
With all respect, I believe that the description described above fits the principle of Tai Ji perfectly. However, I believe that your understanding about ting jin went a little bit too broad. Perhaps it's even far from the the definition of push-hand.
Peace!
Peace!
A deep discussion requires explicit details for a good comprehension of a complex subject.
Re: Solo Push Hands?
Since you have not provided your understanding of tingjin, I can only speculate as to what you may be thinking. I suspect that you feel that tingjin is incompatible with power, strength, and force.
While most of the power that we face will be yang+yang, and while attempting to receive it with yin+yin certainly differentiates the practice from ‘external’ styles, my practice is to try receiving incoming force (of whatever intensity) with yin+yang; which in my understanding is Taiji. This certainly applies to the physical aspects of this art, but I think that it should be everywhere, including the mental and emotional aspects of the art that we practice (as I attempted to explain in my previous post).
I would suggest that even in sports like sumo wrestling, where contestants develop mass to increase their potential power, and where they may initially make contact using force against force (i.e. yang+yang against yang+yang) they still utilize tingjin to listen to what is happening during the encounter so that they can make adjustments and defeat their opponents.
It can be very beneficial for Taijiquan practitioners to practice as soft as they can in order to increase their sensitivity; and I would agree that using great force in the typical way (yang+yang) can, and probably usually does, lessen our ability to sense what is happening in an interaction. But I would also suggest that if force at any level of power is received using yin+yang (i.e. Taiji) then the conditions are present for highly sensitive tingjin. Receiving force with yin+yang means to me that you are not ‘double weighted’ and ideally you can respond correctly to any level of force the opponent produces.
A properly inflated ball floating on water responds to any force, regardless of the level of power; it does not seek to use only the minimal amount of force to contact the incoming force. Yet it will also not use any more force than is needed to deal with the incoming force, always only using the appropriate amount of force to respond to the incoming force. I suspect that this quality of using only the level of force that is required, and no more, that became what many Yang style schools have interpreted as using minimal force (rather than the minimal necessary amount of force), and even that of using ‘no force’ which is a fairly common approach in some Yang style schools.
I am confident that you will not agree with me, but I thought that it may be useful for me to post these comments so that readers can think about it and perhaps add to the discussion.
Peace and harmony,
DP
While most of the power that we face will be yang+yang, and while attempting to receive it with yin+yin certainly differentiates the practice from ‘external’ styles, my practice is to try receiving incoming force (of whatever intensity) with yin+yang; which in my understanding is Taiji. This certainly applies to the physical aspects of this art, but I think that it should be everywhere, including the mental and emotional aspects of the art that we practice (as I attempted to explain in my previous post).
I would suggest that even in sports like sumo wrestling, where contestants develop mass to increase their potential power, and where they may initially make contact using force against force (i.e. yang+yang against yang+yang) they still utilize tingjin to listen to what is happening during the encounter so that they can make adjustments and defeat their opponents.
It can be very beneficial for Taijiquan practitioners to practice as soft as they can in order to increase their sensitivity; and I would agree that using great force in the typical way (yang+yang) can, and probably usually does, lessen our ability to sense what is happening in an interaction. But I would also suggest that if force at any level of power is received using yin+yang (i.e. Taiji) then the conditions are present for highly sensitive tingjin. Receiving force with yin+yang means to me that you are not ‘double weighted’ and ideally you can respond correctly to any level of force the opponent produces.
A properly inflated ball floating on water responds to any force, regardless of the level of power; it does not seek to use only the minimal amount of force to contact the incoming force. Yet it will also not use any more force than is needed to deal with the incoming force, always only using the appropriate amount of force to respond to the incoming force. I suspect that this quality of using only the level of force that is required, and no more, that became what many Yang style schools have interpreted as using minimal force (rather than the minimal necessary amount of force), and even that of using ‘no force’ which is a fairly common approach in some Yang style schools.
I am confident that you will not agree with me, but I thought that it may be useful for me to post these comments so that readers can think about it and perhaps add to the discussion.
Peace and harmony,
DP
Re: Solo Push Hands?
I had stated very clear about zero pressure at the point of contact in the post above. BTW The experience in Ting Jin may not be comprehended or learnt from the basic fundamental principles of yin-yang. Push-hand has to be experienced with an experienced partner to realize what ting jin is all about. Otherwise, more effort is needed to find out how it should be done.
If one thinks that "zero force" at the point of contact is not universal, then there is no need to go any further for the discussion. However, if someone is really interested with an open mind, then I am glad to be more elaborate on the ineffable subject.
Peace and harmony
If one thinks that "zero force" at the point of contact is not universal, then there is no need to go any further for the discussion. However, if someone is really interested with an open mind, then I am glad to be more elaborate on the ineffable subject.
Peace and harmony
A deep discussion requires explicit details for a good comprehension of a complex subject.
Re: Solo Push Hands?
What push hand is all about?
Well, the object of the game is not to let the partner to feel your physical strength; rather, you want to feel the strength of the partner. That is only when the partner had made a mistake by issued a force(勁，jin). Then you will sense the jin by ting jin.
In order for both not to feel the jin of each other, then both to have apply zero pressure at the point of contact. In addition, both hands need to move back and forth, in the same direction, at the same speed. However, if one moves in the wrong direction or speed, then the other will sense the change in pressure of the other. This is known as 聽勁, ting jin.
聽勁, ting jin, is to listening to the jin. One might ask listen to whose jin. Listen means to feel or sense the strength(jin) of the other. Listen doesn't mean to listen by ear but by touch. By ting jin, one will detect how strong the jin is; and in what direction is coming form. Therefore, it will enable for one to determine what offensive measure should be taken to get the partner off balance. The main goal is keep the partner away from one's body. Hence, this is what push hand and ting jin are all about.
Well, the object of the game is not to let the partner to feel your physical strength; rather, you want to feel the strength of the partner. That is only when the partner had made a mistake by issued a force(勁，jin). Then you will sense the jin by ting jin.
In order for both not to feel the jin of each other, then both to have apply zero pressure at the point of contact. In addition, both hands need to move back and forth, in the same direction, at the same speed. However, if one moves in the wrong direction or speed, then the other will sense the change in pressure of the other. This is known as 聽勁, ting jin.
聽勁, ting jin, is to listening to the jin. One might ask listen to whose jin. Listen means to feel or sense the strength(jin) of the other. Listen doesn't mean to listen by ear but by touch. By ting jin, one will detect how strong the jin is; and in what direction is coming form. Therefore, it will enable for one to determine what offensive measure should be taken to get the partner off balance. The main goal is keep the partner away from one's body. Hence, this is what push hand and ting jin are all about.
A deep discussion requires explicit details for a good comprehension of a complex subject.
Re: Solo Push Hands?
Greetings ChiDragon and DP!
For me, “sticking” means to have mutual pressure. Pivoting, rolling, and coiling are necessary to change the orientation or placing of the point of pressure, but sliding is not permitted. For us, pressure that is too light is just as bad as pressure that is too heavy.
You could say that one starting point is with becoming song 松/髤, which is loose and relaxed. To do this you must consciously lengthen the limbs and focus more on the tendons than the muscles. It is like pulling on the ends of a chain to bring the individual links into contact. You don’t want to pull so hard that you get a stiff feeling or so soft that the links do not connect. Some schools focus on maintaining minimal muscular exertion, but we do not. For us, it is the quality of action that is much more important than the quantity of effort.
From being loose and relaxed, you will obtain the feeling of Peng energy, which is a feeling of resilient and springy force coming from your center. You want to feel like water floating a boat from inside to outside.
Using the same action, water can float a fly or a battleship. It matches the energy it receives. This is how we want our Peng to be and is one reason why we do not focus on minimal muscular exertion. The amount of exertion is dependent on the situation. More energy towards your center means more energy outward from your center. How much energy you let come towards your center is a different consideration.
At a basic level, water can only push and float, it cannot pull. Air is the same way. Air pressure only pushes. Our Peng is the same.
Even though water does not have a pulling mechanism, an undertow can pull you under at the beach. Even though air cannot push, you can use air pressure to pull water though a straw. Even though our Peng does not pull, you can use it to do Pluck (cai 採) and pull your opponent to the ground.
Even though our Peng is an outward energy, it allows for two-way movement, just as water can make a boat bob up and down in the water. In this way, our Peng is a Taiji: a single thing that is made up of two aspects, and not two separate, but alternating things.
From the Peng ability comes the pressure that is used in sticking. To stick there must be pressure or energy from both sides. If your opponent emits no energy, you have nothing to stick to and cannot stick. You must wait. For us, this is one meaning of “If your opponent does not move, you do not move.”
The reason you stick is not just to listen to your opponent’s energy, but also to affect his or her energy. In fact, we do it to get control of the opponent.
The concept of sticking is often divided into two parts: a yin and yang aspect. In that way of thinking, practitioners often quote the phrase: 不丢不顶 (Bu diu bu ding), or “Don’t lose; don’t clash.” This means do enough, but don’t do too much. Don’t be too Yin or too Yang.
You can also divide sticking into four aspects: zhan, nian, lian, sui (粘、黏、连、随), or “sticking,” “adhering”/”being sticky,” “connecting,” and “following.” These are also Yin-Yang pairs.
Zhan and nian are more about calibrating the pressure with the arms from a position, and lian and sui are more about calibrating the pressure with the legs in movement.
For zhan粘, you want to pass pressure to your opponent, so that his or her Qi rises. This is a Yang action. However, if you do too much, you clash (ding 顶) with your opponent’s energy. Excessively Yang is not correct.
For nian黏, you want the opponent to pass pressure to you, so that you gain control of his or her energy. You want the opponent to feel like he or she almost has freedom of movement, but that you feel sticky. Like the difference between stirring sugar in water and stirring sticky rice, thick oatmeal, or thin peanut butter. With this subtle control over your opponent’s energy, you can lead it to come to nothing (落空 luo kong). This is a Yin skill, but if you do too little and are insufficient, you are too flat (bian匾). Excessively Yin is not correct.
For lian连, you want to make sure that you always are connected to the opponent’s energy. If he or she moves away from you, you want to give up your own position to stay connected. This is a Yang skill; however, if you are not sufficiently Yang, you will lose (diu 丢) the connection and lose control of the opponent’s energy. Insufficiently Yang is not correct.
For sui随, you want to move along with the direction of your opponent’s energy and adapt to his or her movement. If he or she moves toward you, you want to yield accordingly. This is a Yin skill; however, if you are not sufficiently Yin, you will give the opponent the feeling of resistance (kang抗). Insufficiently Yin is not correct.
These are the skills we learn through our circling drills. As you do them, you will naturally learn to listen to and perceive the energy. As you learn to listen to the energy, more practice teaches you to understand how the energy works and its empty and full. More practice teaches you how to neutralize, dissolve, and transform it. With more practice, you learn how to send out the energy properly.
In working with the ball against the wall, I was able to develop some of the skills to a small degree. Too much pressure is bad, and too little is bad. If you cannot control the ball’s path along the wall, you have a bad result. If you do not follow the balls motion along the wall, you also have a bad result. Best of all, it is hard to blame the ball for not doing the right technique and being too hard or too soft.
Take care,
Audi
My practice and understanding are different from this and much more in line with what DP has described.Well, the object of the game is not to let the partner to feel your physical strength; rather, you want to feel the strength of the partner. That is only when the partner had made a mistake by issued a force(勁，jin). Then you will sense the jin by ting jin.
For me, “sticking” means to have mutual pressure. Pivoting, rolling, and coiling are necessary to change the orientation or placing of the point of pressure, but sliding is not permitted. For us, pressure that is too light is just as bad as pressure that is too heavy.
You could say that one starting point is with becoming song 松/髤, which is loose and relaxed. To do this you must consciously lengthen the limbs and focus more on the tendons than the muscles. It is like pulling on the ends of a chain to bring the individual links into contact. You don’t want to pull so hard that you get a stiff feeling or so soft that the links do not connect. Some schools focus on maintaining minimal muscular exertion, but we do not. For us, it is the quality of action that is much more important than the quantity of effort.
From being loose and relaxed, you will obtain the feeling of Peng energy, which is a feeling of resilient and springy force coming from your center. You want to feel like water floating a boat from inside to outside.
Using the same action, water can float a fly or a battleship. It matches the energy it receives. This is how we want our Peng to be and is one reason why we do not focus on minimal muscular exertion. The amount of exertion is dependent on the situation. More energy towards your center means more energy outward from your center. How much energy you let come towards your center is a different consideration.
At a basic level, water can only push and float, it cannot pull. Air is the same way. Air pressure only pushes. Our Peng is the same.
Even though water does not have a pulling mechanism, an undertow can pull you under at the beach. Even though air cannot push, you can use air pressure to pull water though a straw. Even though our Peng does not pull, you can use it to do Pluck (cai 採) and pull your opponent to the ground.
Even though our Peng is an outward energy, it allows for two-way movement, just as water can make a boat bob up and down in the water. In this way, our Peng is a Taiji: a single thing that is made up of two aspects, and not two separate, but alternating things.
From the Peng ability comes the pressure that is used in sticking. To stick there must be pressure or energy from both sides. If your opponent emits no energy, you have nothing to stick to and cannot stick. You must wait. For us, this is one meaning of “If your opponent does not move, you do not move.”
The reason you stick is not just to listen to your opponent’s energy, but also to affect his or her energy. In fact, we do it to get control of the opponent.
The concept of sticking is often divided into two parts: a yin and yang aspect. In that way of thinking, practitioners often quote the phrase: 不丢不顶 (Bu diu bu ding), or “Don’t lose; don’t clash.” This means do enough, but don’t do too much. Don’t be too Yin or too Yang.
You can also divide sticking into four aspects: zhan, nian, lian, sui (粘、黏、连、随), or “sticking,” “adhering”/”being sticky,” “connecting,” and “following.” These are also Yin-Yang pairs.
Zhan and nian are more about calibrating the pressure with the arms from a position, and lian and sui are more about calibrating the pressure with the legs in movement.
For zhan粘, you want to pass pressure to your opponent, so that his or her Qi rises. This is a Yang action. However, if you do too much, you clash (ding 顶) with your opponent’s energy. Excessively Yang is not correct.
For nian黏, you want the opponent to pass pressure to you, so that you gain control of his or her energy. You want the opponent to feel like he or she almost has freedom of movement, but that you feel sticky. Like the difference between stirring sugar in water and stirring sticky rice, thick oatmeal, or thin peanut butter. With this subtle control over your opponent’s energy, you can lead it to come to nothing (落空 luo kong). This is a Yin skill, but if you do too little and are insufficient, you are too flat (bian匾). Excessively Yin is not correct.
For lian连, you want to make sure that you always are connected to the opponent’s energy. If he or she moves away from you, you want to give up your own position to stay connected. This is a Yang skill; however, if you are not sufficiently Yang, you will lose (diu 丢) the connection and lose control of the opponent’s energy. Insufficiently Yang is not correct.
For sui随, you want to move along with the direction of your opponent’s energy and adapt to his or her movement. If he or she moves toward you, you want to yield accordingly. This is a Yin skill; however, if you are not sufficiently Yin, you will give the opponent the feeling of resistance (kang抗). Insufficiently Yin is not correct.
These are the skills we learn through our circling drills. As you do them, you will naturally learn to listen to and perceive the energy. As you learn to listen to the energy, more practice teaches you to understand how the energy works and its empty and full. More practice teaches you how to neutralize, dissolve, and transform it. With more practice, you learn how to send out the energy properly.
In working with the ball against the wall, I was able to develop some of the skills to a small degree. Too much pressure is bad, and too little is bad. If you cannot control the ball’s path along the wall, you have a bad result. If you do not follow the balls motion along the wall, you also have a bad result. Best of all, it is hard to blame the ball for not doing the right technique and being too hard or too soft.
Take care,
Audi
Re: Solo Push Hands?
Audi,Audi wrote:For me, “sticking” means to have mutual pressure. Pivoting, rolling, and coiling are necessary to change the orientation or placing of the point of pressure, but sliding is not permitted. For us, pressure that is too light is just as bad as pressure that is too heavy.
I agree with most of what you have written, but was wondering if you would elaborate on “sliding is not permitted.” I agree that “pivoting, rolling, and coiling are necessary...” and that unintentional sliding is not desirable (it could indicate a lack of stickiness or lack of control at the point of contact), but I was taught “smearing” by Zhang Luping. Smearing is like spreading something viscous (like honey) across the opponent’s skin in order to control them.
I think that being able to control the partner/opponent at the point of contact is the most important, but being in control when changing the point of contact is also an important skill.
I also like the ideas that you try to convey with the water analogies, but to my understanding, water can pull, although to a lesser degree than it pushes. Water tends to have some sticky quality, which is why there is a film of water on hard surfaces prior to the water beading up (unless you have a surface coated with Rain X, or something similar).
DP
Re: Solo Push Hands?
Gentlemen....
The reason there are discrepancies in our understanding of these terms is because it depends who have we learnt them from. Here are the definition of zhan lian, nian sui (粘连黏随) defined from the former Tai Chi master 楊班候.
Let me translate the first paragraph and let's go from there.
Before I go into the translation, I must point out to the fact that 沾粘 are synonym but different in writing. Therefore, they were used to distinguish between the actions of the active and passive sticking.
沾 is active sticking
粘 is passive sticking
沾連粘隨，是太極拳最基本的技術勁法和基礎功夫，在推手中得以充分的訓練和運用。沾連為主動施為，宜在我居上風時；粘隨須被動做法，宜在我居下勢時。 即在引勁跟勁過程中，保持接觸點不鬆開，引勁中將來勁粘住，跟勁中將退勁黏住。在套路練習中，「沾粘連隨」的意念和勁感也要無時無處不在指導著自身內在和外在的運動狀態。
沾連粘隨 are the basic techniques for fa jin and the fundamental of martial arts. These two methods were acquired from adequate training and application of push hands, 沾連(sticking and linking) is an active action. It is an action taken by the one who is getting the upper hand. And 粘隨 (stinking and following) is a passive action. It is an action taken by the one who was in a disadvantage position.
More clarification on 沾連粘隨
沾連粘隨 is when two hands are stay in contact. 沾 describes the sticking action in the advantage position; while 粘 is the sticking action in the disadvantage position. In conclusion, if one partner's hand moves away from the hand of the other, then, it was considered to be 沾連(sticking and linking) . While the hand of the partner follows, then, it was considered to be 粘隨(stinking and following). The synonyms 沾and 粘, in push hands, simply means stay in contact but song (松/鬆 )at all times. One was being Song (松/鬆 ) means no pressure or zero force. Thus no one is fa jin(發勁) at the time.
The definitions of 沾連粘隨:
http://www.twword.com/wiki/%E7%B2%98%E9 ... F%E9%9A%A8
The reason there are discrepancies in our understanding of these terms is because it depends who have we learnt them from. Here are the definition of zhan lian, nian sui (粘连黏随) defined from the former Tai Chi master 楊班候.
Let me translate the first paragraph and let's go from there.
Before I go into the translation, I must point out to the fact that 沾粘 are synonym but different in writing. Therefore, they were used to distinguish between the actions of the active and passive sticking.
沾 is active sticking
粘 is passive sticking
沾連粘隨，是太極拳最基本的技術勁法和基礎功夫，在推手中得以充分的訓練和運用。沾連為主動施為，宜在我居上風時；粘隨須被動做法，宜在我居下勢時。 即在引勁跟勁過程中，保持接觸點不鬆開，引勁中將來勁粘住，跟勁中將退勁黏住。在套路練習中，「沾粘連隨」的意念和勁感也要無時無處不在指導著自身內在和外在的運動狀態。
沾連粘隨 are the basic techniques for fa jin and the fundamental of martial arts. These two methods were acquired from adequate training and application of push hands, 沾連(sticking and linking) is an active action. It is an action taken by the one who is getting the upper hand. And 粘隨 (stinking and following) is a passive action. It is an action taken by the one who was in a disadvantage position.
More clarification on 沾連粘隨
沾連粘隨 is when two hands are stay in contact. 沾 describes the sticking action in the advantage position; while 粘 is the sticking action in the disadvantage position. In conclusion, if one partner's hand moves away from the hand of the other, then, it was considered to be 沾連(sticking and linking) . While the hand of the partner follows, then, it was considered to be 粘隨(stinking and following). The synonyms 沾and 粘, in push hands, simply means stay in contact but song (松/鬆 )at all times. One was being Song (松/鬆 ) means no pressure or zero force. Thus no one is fa jin(發勁) at the time.
The definitions of 沾連粘隨:
http://www.twword.com/wiki/%E7%B2%98%E9 ... F%E9%9A%A8
A deep discussion requires explicit details for a good comprehension of a complex subject.
Re: Solo Push Hands?
Gentlemen....DPasek wrote:Audi,Audi wrote:For me, “sticking” means to have mutual pressure. Pivoting, rolling, and coiling are necessary to change the orientation or placing of the point of pressure, but sliding is not permitted. For us, pressure that is too light is just as bad as pressure that is too heavy.
I agree with most of what you have written, but was wondering if you would elaborate on “sliding is not permitted.” I agree that “pivoting, rolling, and coiling are necessary...” and that unintentional sliding is not desirable (it could indicate a lack of stickiness or lack of control at the point of contact), but I was taught “smearing” by Zhang Luping. Smearing is like spreading something viscous (like honey) across the opponent’s skin in order to control them.
I think that being able to control the partner/opponent at the point of contact is the most important, but being in control when changing the point of contact is also an important skill.
DP
I am so sorry that I have to jump into the middle of this. However, my conscience tells me that I must step in to make me contribution as a member of this forum.
Based on the definition was given, the basic idea about the point of contact in push-hands is to stay in contact at all times. Any time when one's hand had moved away from the hand of the partner violates the rule of push-hands. One push the other yields by pulling back. That's how the push-pull to keep both partners' hands in contact with zero force. If both partners push against each other, then, ting jin will be able to detect the jin. Unfortunately, if both pushed at the same time, then they are very inexperience in push-hands.
In Tai Chi, the yin is always dominant. Therefore, at the initial contact of both partners' hands must start with zero pressure to be in the yin-state . Then, by ting jin(to feel the strength) is for one to see who is going to make the first mistake. Sliding the hand at the point of contact is the same as applying a force the point of contact. The other will detect the movement right away by ting jin. In the other hand, smearing is inevitable. It is because when both hands are moving at the point of contact is like a universal joint in a mechanical arm. Thus it is impossible for both hands not to move at the point of contact while both hands are moving back and forth.
BTW 沾連 may be also translated as uplifting one hand and the other hand follows like a chain link.
Wu Wei
A deep discussion requires explicit details for a good comprehension of a complex subject.
Re: Solo Push Hands?
ChiDragon,
This is a forum where differing opinions are welcome. As long as everyone is civil, even when they passionately disagree with each other, it is good to have varying understandings of our art expressed. I view our art as a continuum that can accommodate various approaches, within Yang style schools, or between different styles.
I do have difficulty understanding your approach, however, since we seem to have differing opinions of appropriate force. For example, on another thread you mention using “zero force” to catch a falling camera. To me touching the falling camera with zero force would mean that your hand would hit the floor at the same time that the camera’s momentum is stopped, thus smashing your hand between the floor and the camera.
I agree that someone would not want the falling camera to bounce off their hand (hand being too yang) but they would also want to slow the falling camera’s momentum (hand not too yin). Some type of force would need to be applied to the falling camera in order to stop its decent, or to change its direction. Zero force would mean that the camera would continue on uninterrupted.
I agree with your points that “stick” and “adhere” have differing emphases, one being more yin and the other being more yang, but I do not understand why you separate them into one hand vs. the other hand. To me it expresses the common concept of having neither excess (too yang) NOR deficiency (too yin) simultaneously. I apply this principle to every point of contact even when only one hand is involved. In my understanding, we want this yin/yang balance at every point of contact. Two different contacts points are not required.
I like Zhang Yun’s explanation of Zhan Nian Lian Sui 粘黏連隨 “Sticking, Adhering, Connecting, and Following”
http://www.ycgf.org/Articles/Z-N-L-S/arti_znls.htm
When I talk about Zhan Nian Lian Sui, I commonly use the analogy of catching a sharply hit baseball with the bare hand. But to catch the ball, appropriate force needs to be applied in order to change the momentum of the ball. The only way that I can see this being done with “zero force” in the hand would be to wait until the ball comes to a complete stop on its own, and then touching it, but that would not really be “catching” it, and I do not think that this is what you mean by “zero” or “no” force.
Perhaps you could provide a better example?
This is a forum where differing opinions are welcome. As long as everyone is civil, even when they passionately disagree with each other, it is good to have varying understandings of our art expressed. I view our art as a continuum that can accommodate various approaches, within Yang style schools, or between different styles.
I do have difficulty understanding your approach, however, since we seem to have differing opinions of appropriate force. For example, on another thread you mention using “zero force” to catch a falling camera. To me touching the falling camera with zero force would mean that your hand would hit the floor at the same time that the camera’s momentum is stopped, thus smashing your hand between the floor and the camera.
I agree that someone would not want the falling camera to bounce off their hand (hand being too yang) but they would also want to slow the falling camera’s momentum (hand not too yin). Some type of force would need to be applied to the falling camera in order to stop its decent, or to change its direction. Zero force would mean that the camera would continue on uninterrupted.
I agree with your points that “stick” and “adhere” have differing emphases, one being more yin and the other being more yang, but I do not understand why you separate them into one hand vs. the other hand. To me it expresses the common concept of having neither excess (too yang) NOR deficiency (too yin) simultaneously. I apply this principle to every point of contact even when only one hand is involved. In my understanding, we want this yin/yang balance at every point of contact. Two different contacts points are not required.
I like Zhang Yun’s explanation of Zhan Nian Lian Sui 粘黏連隨 “Sticking, Adhering, Connecting, and Following”
http://www.ycgf.org/Articles/Z-N-L-S/arti_znls.htm
When I talk about Zhan Nian Lian Sui, I commonly use the analogy of catching a sharply hit baseball with the bare hand. But to catch the ball, appropriate force needs to be applied in order to change the momentum of the ball. The only way that I can see this being done with “zero force” in the hand would be to wait until the ball comes to a complete stop on its own, and then touching it, but that would not really be “catching” it, and I do not think that this is what you mean by “zero” or “no” force.
Perhaps you could provide a better example?