How to Relax in Tai Chi?

DPasek
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Re: How to Relax in Tai Chi?

Post by DPasek »

ChiDragon wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:40 pm It does't make it true or a fact.
Of course it doesn’t! But it does provide an alternative hypothesis to your hypothesis, one that I personally find more plausible. You and dottaichi provide “scientific concepts and terminologies” for your arguments, this is true, but you do not appear to apply the scientific method, and your arguments do not have the rigor necessary for science (or history, or philosophy, or other academic disciplines).

I would love scientific explanations! The problem is that many individuals who attempt to make concepts sound scientific have not done the rigorous research/thought that is necessary to validate any idea. Just searching for something that sounds like it supports a hypothesis is insufficient; as I tried to point out, one also needs to search for information that may contradict their hypothesis, and thereafter modify or abandon their hypothesis (or at least propose explanations for the differences) based on ALL evidence, not just based on the supporting evidence that one may think that they have found. Supporting evidence is necessary, but so is diligent consideration of information that seems to contradict the hypothesis. Neither you nor dottaichi appears to do this, and it is therefore difficult to take the resulting information seriously.

But keep presenting your hypotheses, as long as you also realize that presenting them using “scientific concepts and terminologies” also “doesn’t make them true or a fact.” Perhaps someone will use your hypotheses as a starting point for ideas to use in actually crafting more scientific/scholarly analyses of the subjects.

I think that the science is rigorous enough to demonstrate that TJQ is good for balance (e.g., preventing falls in the elderly), but the evidence so far from most other experiments on benefits from TJQ are mostly just preliminary and give indications, or tendencies, rather than convincing and rigorous evidence. I wish that the experiments were better! I wish that the claims for health benefits from TJQ were stronger!

Note: I provided the quote from Xu because he was a native Chinese TJQ practitioner, and therefore his ideas could not be dismissed as simply not understanding the culture and concepts – something that could be done with anything that I say because I am a Westerner and not native Chinese. His writing shows that there is an understanding that differs from yours. It is too soon to conclude which is correct, but every individual can decide which option they prefer, based on their own background and knowledge.
ChiDragon
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Re: How to Relax in Tai Chi?

Post by ChiDragon »

It seems you are still evading the issue. I wish you have considered more in a scientific approach, like muscles contraction which generates energy. Instead of having a thinking that energy just come out of nowhere which one can move it. Furthermore, I wish I hear more about the understanding of ATP from a biochemist. You seems to ignore all the scientific facts about muscle contraction, oxygen and ATP. IMMHO It seems to me that you have a vague or no understand of the biochemical energy(ATP) at all. You seems to ignore the issue each time when it comes up and went back to cite the old concepts without justification. Those old concepts has been passed down from generation to generation. It is useless to repeat the same old thing over and over. By citing them as references are not very convincing. It is because one is only repeating what had been said again and again. The time has changed, there are new ideas which can be used to substantiate those old concepts. What I am saying was that we should para-parallel compare the old and the new to get some meanings out of it.
A deep discussion requires explicit details for a good comprehension of a complex subject.
DPasek
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Re: How to Relax in Tai Chi?

Post by DPasek »

I have an understanding of oxygen, ATP, lactic acid buildup, the Ryanodine Receptor’s (Calcium Release Channel) roll in releasing calcium to trigger muscle contraction, etc., etc., etc. What I do NOT have is evidence that this is significantly different in TJQ practitioners than it is in any other equivalent non-practicing individual; no evidence that there is an equivalency between any of these biological factors and qi.

Speculations are fine, but I require more rigorous research/information than mere speculations. If you have specific peer reviewed scientific publications that are relevant to this topic, then please provide us a link so that we can discuss the methodology, results, and conclusions. I would be happy to contribute my evaluations of the scientific merits of the research, and to point out whether the controls are rigorous or not.

Why would you state that I think that “energy just come out of nowhere…”? Absurd! Do not attribute this thought to me!

Your inaccuracies are too numerous for me to attempt corrections. For example: “muscles contraction which generates energy” is wrong! Muscle contraction consumes energy!...
ChiDragon
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Re: How to Relax in Tai Chi?

Post by ChiDragon »

DPasek wrote: Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:58 pm What I do NOT have is evidence that this is significantly different in TJQ practitioners than it is in any other equivalent non-practicing individual; no evidence that there is an equivalency between any of these biological factors and qi.

Muscle contraction consumes energy!...
If you are trying to rely on others to come up with an equivalency between any of these biological factors and qi, then, I can assure you that you will not. It is because everybody got stuck in the head with the old concept which cannot be altered in their minds. Needless to say, it would be fallen into the argument of what comes first: the egg or the chicken?

If you understand ATP, then where is the energy came from for muscles to consume?
A deep discussion requires explicit details for a good comprehension of a complex subject.
ChiDragon
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Re: How to Relax in Tai Chi?

Post by ChiDragon »

DPasek wrote: Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:58 pm Your inaccuracies are too numerous for me to attempt corrections. For example: “muscles contraction which generates energy” is wrong!
Please reconsider your previous erroneous presumption!
https://www.sciencelearn.org.nz/resourc ... r-exercise
A deep discussion requires explicit details for a good comprehension of a complex subject.
fchai
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Re: How to Relax in Tai Chi?

Post by fchai »

Hi CD,
You just answered and verified DP's statement. Lol.
Take care,
Frank :lol:
yslim
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Re: How to Relax in Tai Chi?

Post by yslim »

dottaichi wrote: Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:04 am Hi everyone,

A new poster here, nice to meet you all :). Just wanted to share my own thoughts on how to Relax in Tai Chi, and would love to hear feedback.

Good Morning dottaichi,
I reply you with a short form at this time just in case you are on the go. In all my years practicing Taiji to seek the secret for longevity, I came to recognize Taiji is all about a change of yin-yang, and this is my realization:

Know Taiji Change, Know Taiji Relax.
No Taiji Change,No Taiji Relax.

Y S Lim
fchai
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Re: How to Relax in Tai Chi?

Post by fchai »

Greetings,
Sometimes one can get to be a little too analytical and make too much of an effort to try to find a rational or pseudo rational explanation for particular aspects of Taiji. Also, it is often a trap to focus on one aspect of a Taiji principle, when it is often multi-layered. The principle or nature of "song" for instance. "Relax" is just one descriptor and interpreting it only about muscles loses much of its full meaning. Why? Because by only focusing on the muscles you have ignored everything else, including the mind! However, even if you relate only to muscles, the description on how muscles work does not provide a clear or complete explanation and could potentially just confuse and complicate matters further.
In addition, the term "relax" is just one aspect of what "song" is. It is about being loose not limp, unencumbered, un-tensed, soft but hard, hard but soft, passive but ready and aware, stillness with movement, in movement there is stillness, etc.
A limited analogy that I sometimes use is that of a good golf swing. To execute a good and powerful drive, you have to be "song" from the start of the swing to its end. If any tension creeps in, be it the fingers, hands, legs, core, neck, etc. the swing will not be optimum and you will lose power and direction. And, the mind also plays a huge part. "Visualisation" provides the "Intent" for the swing and where you want the ball to land. The mind needs to be "still" and focused and relaxed, without errant thoughts or tension else the swing will be ineffectual.
Isn't Taiji wonderful?
Take care,
Frank
Bob Ashmore
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Re: How to Relax in Tai Chi?

Post by Bob Ashmore »

CD,
You did not fully read what I wrote and so it appears you have replied incorrectly and from hubris rather than with rational thought.
Let me enlighten you by restating what I actually wrote, which was "and not use any unnecessary contraction to do so", and now by educating you on how that works so you won't continue to do wrong things as you go forward.
Well, if you can grasp and perform the concept. Unfortunately most cannot.
For my sake, I want you to learn to be better at TCC than me so I will do my best to help you.
First off...
I have never, ever, not even once, claimed that the contracting of muscles does not occur. That would be wrong and I don't do wrong things, I barely even remember how at this point. But I digress...
In fact I have repeatedly and clearly stated that I use but do not focus on muscular contraction, that if I have to focus on anything I much prefer to focus on the expansion.
That is, in fact, what I teach to my new students because...
That is how newbies learn how not to "use any unnecessary contraction".
It really is that easy, which is why most people, present company not accepted, can't seem to understand or do it.
To quote one of my favorite movies:
"I don't believe it!"
"That is why you fail."
Simply put contraction is the Yang to the Yin of muscle use.
By focusing on the opening, the expanding, the Yin, it allows the closing, the contraction, the Yang, to cycle through much more freely and without interrupting the cycle of energy flow by overly contracting the muscles.
By thinking about the expansion and not the contraction it keeps most people from contracting as hard as they possibly can, thus they use much less contraction, thus they do not "use any" or at least not much until they get good at this, "unnecessary contraction".
See how that works?
It's a mind game, and it works, so as I was taught I now continue to teach people to play the game that way.
At first...
There's more to this, of course. There always is, we have to learn not to take the first level of success as true enlightenment or else we do not continue to advance. This method is only the very first level.
This concept is simply the foundation, the beginner mind method of practice to achieve the desired goal. However most people will never understand or be able to perform even this much of the idea, much less go beyond it, so I haven't expanded on it here as, quite frankly, it just goes right over most people's heads until they learn, believe, and finally understand at least this much.
Most people can't and so don't believe it (much like you at this point) so they continue to fail (ahem).
Because overly concentrating on the Yin can and will eventually do the same thing as overly focusing on the Yang, just in reverse.
"Neither too much nor not enough", does that sound familiar to you?
You see... or maybe you don't... Okay, pretty clearly you don't... alright then here's how it works.
I will attempt to use small words so as not to confuse anyone.
TCC uses both Yin and Yang equally.
So if you're using an equal amount of both Yin and Yang, an equal amount of both expansion and contraction, an equal amount of opening and closing, wow, you're there! You've achieved "Tai Chi" and can then use it for health purposes if that's your goal, or for the "Chuan" if that's where you wish to go.
Either way congratualtions, you've made it.

To summarize:
Using too much Yang, muscle contraction, closing, is bad.
Using too much Yin, muscle expansion, opening, is bad.
Using an equal amount of both Yin and Yang, that is the desired method.
To reach that method you have to take small steps, learning it a bit deeper each time you pass a threshold until you finally reach the end goal.
The concept of focusing the mind on the Yin, the expansion, the opening, is simply the first step in this process.

"Neither too much nor not enough" making more sense to you now?
This is why my first actual Tai Chi Chuan Master taught me that once I had learned, then could do, and actually understand this method to STOP USING IT.
Once I had reached that level, which took me a REALLY long time by the way, he then taught me to "set it and forget it" by not thinking of either Yin or Yang (etc., etc., etc...) and actually allow my muscles to do their thing naturally, without my brain getting in the way with its high falutin' ideas of "expansion good, contraction bad".
Because that's also not true, neither is good or bad by itself.
Without Yin, there can be no Yang.
Without Yang, there can be no Yin.
Both are necessary in equal measure.

Bob Bu Hao (and how!)
yslim
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Re: How to Relax in Tai Chi?

Post by yslim »

 dottaichi » Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:04 am
Hi everyone, 

A new poster here, nice to meet you all . Just wanted to share my own thoughts on how to Relax in Tai Chi, and would love to hear feedback.
Hoping to improve my Tai Chi with everyone else here, so looking forward to any feedback. I've attempted to elaborate my understanding here:

Hoping to improve my Tai Chi with everyone else here, so looking forward to any feedback. I've attempted to elaborate my understanding here: http://www.dottaichi.com/lesson06.html
Good Morning dottaichi.
Just wanted to share my experience on Taiji fang song practice, as a feedback to your request. The link that you presented did not mention Taiji philosophy, concepts, and principles to elaborate what is Taiji. Without any Taiji point, there is no point in talking about “how to relax in Taiji”, to the point that we can understand each other. I hope our own view point does not block the true view of Taiji fang song
Relaxation & Tai Chi: Muscles
Muscles that are under our conscious control are called voluntary muscles, and this is our Skeletal Muscles. In order to be in a relaxed state, we are teaching our skeletal muscles to not contract. We call this the Mind-Muscle Connection.
In Taiji terminology, Taiji has Yin Yang muscles. Yin’s nature is to contract/absorb and yang’s nature is expand/project. They are opposite but not opposing each other. They are connecting at a point, therefore create a neutral point of yin/yang). A true balance of synergy “living” in a “up/down force” with 8 gates expansion(right/left, front/back up/down, internal/external)sphere. This gives a coexistence to condense and expand within the Taiji-body; Having a “full” feeling of soft but firm to avoid collapsing. This allows me to move with my center while in a fang song state. Still having the awareness to keep some residue of a potential defense/offense energy to kick butt. I practice on this path to feel to know, what Taiji fang song should be; A yi-body trusts the physical-body to engage in such relationship of “knowing”

Otherwise how much of “enough is enough”, that “skeletal muscles you are teaching to not contract” know? That could only guess.
We are already aware of what it means to have some of our Skeletal Muscles to be in a Relaxed state. In daily life, we use skeletal muscles in pairs: when one muscle contracts, the other muscle pair will be relaxed. In other words, a muscle that is not contracted is in a relaxed state. 

What if we could make both pairs of muscles relaxed? To me, having two pairs of muscles in a relaxed state is what we're aiming for in Tai Chi.

Yes, you could make both pairs of muscles relaxed. To me, all I could see is you’re aiming back to Wu Chi. Wu Chi(Void) is mother of Taiji, said the tao. Under this condition what you get is a “couch potato” Wu Chi; Wu Chi(void) doing nothing IS still WUJI(void). When Wuji wants to do something, that something is call “BIRTH OF TAIJ” says the Tao.

“Having two pairs of muscles in a relaxed state”, that have no polarity is not what Taiji is aiming for. Polarity is a two way street the Taiji must play on (one way is yin, the other way is yang). If not, Taiji might be “death on arrival”….
“One of the Tai Chi principles is to not use Brute Force (拙力).” We want to develop our Body Awareness to experience relaxed Skeletal Muscles. That is, we are reconditioning our mind to refrain from giving instructions to contract our Muscles in our body (i.e. abstaining from transmitting instructions through our Central Nervous System to our muscles). We are re-calibrating our Mind-Muscle Connection.


In my Taiji practice I focus on ‘intent’ to pay ’attention’ at all times to the Taiji’s process of fang song; to change with change at the Taiji Point for synergy. Taiji has two bodies, yi-body and physical-body, sharing in a sphere. I work with the Taiji principle: “Use yi, don’t use li(brute force, that is). I use the yi-body to detect any stiffness in movement that feels hard like ice in the physical-body, by melting it away. But simultaneously maintaining and holding the body shape but without stiffness. in an up right position so it won’t look and feel collapsed. Otherwise one will end up looking like wet noodle! But once the ice/stiffness is melted, the body will become softer but firm/full without hard edges. So that the ‘mind-body‘ and ‘physical body’ form a mutual trust that it is OK to get rid the old habit of resistance. Also to keep the ego at bay to interfere. This could lead to the “present of being: “yi tao/arrive, chi tao/arrive, li tao/arrive”. Heighten the degree of “ting jin/listen energy” to change with change with nature, to eliminate the risk to use Brute Force. Develop a “Taiji complimentary force” to “meet and match’ the oncoming force without becoming a wet noodle. This is the Taiji fang song I am practicing. This “fang song” is not like any other “relax”…Does this make any sense to you?
Many people unconsciously give instructions to our skeletal muscles to contract because we have been conditioned to stabilize our body with our muscles. As soon as our nerves transmits the signals to our Skeletal Muscles to contract, there is less room in our blood vessels, resulting in increased blood pressure and/or decreased blood circulation.
 

Taiji wouldn’t give instruction to our skeletal muscles to “contract yin muscles” without a “expanding yang muscles.” Because Taiji can only work as polarity pair.

Just curious, Why you need room in blood vessel to relax?

The “room” that Taiji needs for fang song is in the neutral, not in the blood vessels. It is within the Taiji body’s polarity yin-yang-change the change simultaneously occurs on the spot for synergy. I practice melting away the ‘ice-body(stiffness) to become a “water-body”, convert it to a “steam-body”, and then to a “air/chi-body” until I’m good and ready, to do the following: I let you grab my wrist tight to push me off balance or to attack . A none Taiji way would be to resist. Resist = tension = stiff and hard edges in the muscles. it will cause pain to my wrist. But Taiji trained me DO NOT RESIST. Therefore I can melt away the tension by letting go of the stiffness and maintain the same body shape as if I am expanding the physical body. I got fang song! My fang song will cause a chain reaction that makes you also relax a bit involuntary. This releases the pain in my wrist and able to wriggle but still held on by your grip. Then I use this as contact point to align my wrist’s yang muscle to your hand yang muscles and project to your body mass’s “center with cross”. to manipulate your body’s four quarters to up set and uproot your center balance. Once I’m already there with my yi-chi-jin and you are off balance, I might as well give your body mass a punch with my “whole unit force” through my wrist by repeating the ‘up-down force’ work as a body bowl’s string to release the arrow (shoulder to the wrist) to the target( your back and beyond) to knock you silly to the floor. With no need to “contract” arm muscles to see you fall as you should. ( I do Taiji only for health. martial art is side affect). “Use yi not excess li” was my game plan; It is PURELY a yi-body corresponding with the physical-body’s support to achieve it.

EXPAND the physical-body while”CONTRACTING’ the yi-body that coexists as One while INHALING. Revert this process, while CONTRACTING the physical- body to EXHALE simultaneously EXPANDING the yi-body. With polarity and NEUTRAL in mind to complete this breathing in one breath cycle”. Doing so, maintains a roomy condition for the “chi/energy” to orbit thought out the whole body at will ( this chi/energy only works as an air energy that does not run through the blood vessel to inflate the tires to run the car very smoothly, and the blood energy work like gasoline to run the engine so the car runs as one whole unit. That is how I think and use of “chi/energy”).
In Tai Chi, we want to increase our blood flow without contracting our muscles. How do we do this? There are some pre-requisites that we have to achieve first, such as having a Stable Body Structure.
“How do we do this?’ in thinking, it is very sample…. DO NOT RESIST. Taiji principle: Use yi don’t use li( excess li, that is). In action: practice Taiji Classic “Invest In Loss”. In Fang song you could lost all your old habits and crossed that ”Line Of No Return”.

In Taiji, it helps to be calm, ‘fang’ the mind-body to ‘song’ the physical-body, find the Taiji Point, yin yang with neutral, changes in neutral. and SIT (SIT is NOT SQUAT). In Taiji I don’t want to increase the blood flow for “How to relax in Tai Chi”. I want a normal and calm blood flow, want to equalize and maintain a synergy body to be calm in a natural state like a plumb line. To be able to feel the equilibrium, to know that I am having a Stable Body Structure.
With a Stable Body Structure, we can effectively put our body weight directly onto our bones/skeletons, so that our Skeletal Muscles don't need to bear our body weight.
I base on Taiji concept of yin yang and neutral to build a Taiji’s “Stable Body Structure” enable me to ‘MOVE WITH CENTER’, in defense/offend, and relaxed position, to feel the equilibrium. I still have a Stable Body Structure to carry on in my well being. But not to carry all that body weight could cause “last straw that breaks the camel’s back”!

***THE END***

Ciao, before that last straw fall on me
Lim

Conclusion

By being relaxed can we increase blood circulation. We can further leverage this by relying on Gravity to act on our body to increase our blood circulation.... though the prerequisite is that we have a Stable Body Structure... though this may be a topic for another time 

Hoping to improve my Tai Chi with everyone else here, so looking forward to any feedback. I've attempted to elaborate my understanding here: http://www.dottaichi.com/lesson06.html
ChiDragon
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Re: How to Relax in Tai Chi?

Post by ChiDragon »

fchai wrote: Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:39 pm Greetings,
Sometimes one can get to be a little too analytical and make too much of an effort to try to find a rational or pseudo rational explanation for particular aspects of Taiji. Also, it is often a trap to focus on one aspect of a Taiji principle, when it is often multi-layered. The principle or nature of "song" for instance. "Relax" is just one descriptor and interpreting it only about muscles loses much of its full meaning. Why? Because by only focusing on the muscles you have ignored everything else, including the mind! However, even if you relate only to muscles, the description on how muscles work does not provide a clear or complete explanation and could potentially just confuse and complicate matters further.
In addition, the term "relax" is just one aspect of what "song" is. It is about being loose not limp, unencumbered, un-tensed, soft but hard, hard but soft, passive but ready and aware, stillness with movement, in movement there is stillness, etc.
A limited analogy that I sometimes use is that of a good golf swing. To execute a good and powerful drive, you have to be "song" from the start of the swing to its end. If any tension creeps in, be it the fingers, hands, legs, core, neck, etc. the swing will not be optimum and you will lose power and direction. And, the mind also plays a huge part. "Visualisation" provides the "Intent" for the swing and where you want the ball to land. The mind needs to be "still" and focused and relaxed, without errant thoughts or tension else the swing will be ineffectual.
Isn't Taiji wonderful?
Take care,
Frank
Hi, Frank
What you said is all true. In order to get to the truth of the matter, we have to consider the sources an all aspects. What you are saying by only focusing on the muscles you have ignored everything else, including the mind! Eventually, you may say that everything inclusively but you are still referring back on the focus of the muscles. You might think that your mind is at a relax state! Actually it is not. Do you know for the mind to control the relaxation of muscles is a lot harder than contraction? That is the reason why the first thing you want to tell the beginning students to understand the meaning of "song." In the first few days or weeks, I can guarantee you that all beginners will tighten their muscles on all their movements. From here, we can learn that the students are not in the "song" state. I don't like to use the word "relax" for the translation of "鬆". I would rather say when one is in the "鬆" state; the muscles are NOT contracted. As I had mentioned before, "鬆" is pertaining to the muscles only in the native language regardless of Taiji.

In the limited analogy of a good golf swing, if your mind plays a huge part in "visualisation" provides the "intent" and focus, then the mind is not in a "still" state. Literal speaking! It was too busy focusing on the execution of the calculated result for the ball to reach the hole.

We all are coming from various cultural backgrounds and educated differently. In the case of Taiji practicing, the level of understanding depends on who had one learnt from, the educational background of the instructor and each individual. However, just practicing Taiji without any basic knowledge about the physiological functions of the human body will not make progress in a short time nor in the future. Thus the level of accomplishment is strictly relies on the knowledge in all aspects of each individual.
A deep discussion requires explicit details for a good comprehension of a complex subject.
Audi
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Re: How to Relax in Tai Chi?

Post by Audi »

Bob,
To summarize:
Using too much Yang, muscle contraction, closing, is bad.
Using too much Yin, muscle expansion, opening, is bad.
Using an equal amount of both Yin and Yang, that is the desired method.
To reach that method you have to take small steps, learning it a bit deeper each time you pass a threshold until you finally reach the end goal.
The concept of focusing the mind on the Yin, the expansion, the opening, is simply the first step in this process.
I like what you posted a lot.

The one part where I might differ is that, for me, muscle contraction and expansion are not at all the same as opening and closing. It is mostly semantics, but the semantics are important to me.

When you draw a bow, does the bow exhibit any “desire” to contract? No, you only feel it wanting to straighten and expand. When you draw with your right arm (assuming you draw right handed), do you contract your right forearm into your right upper arm to bend your elbow? No, you merely extend your right elbow out and let the energy decide how much your arm bends. You do not pull your hand into your chest, but rather just pull it across your chest with an expansion through the elbow.

When you draw a bow, does not the energy in the bow tend to contract the arms and the shoulder blades? But all you do is expand against it, there is no feeling of contraction. When you release the bowstring, do you switch to contraction? No, if anything you push even more with your left hand than before.

In doing form, all my joints open and close, but I never do so with the feeling I get doing a biceps curl. It is always with the feeling I get drawing a bow. Inherently, expanding in one way, means not expanding in another; but this not the side I am manipulating.

Some people feel that this statement violates Tai Chi theory. They say that if there is expansion, there must be contraction. I think and have been taught that this is not actually the theory. To find the two of Yin and Yang, you must first identify the one of the specific Taiji that is the mother of the specific Yin and Yang.

What is the one that requires a Yin and Yang of contraction and expansion? I do not know.

I take expansion as my Taiji. Inherent in our biomechanics, is a set of muscles that opens one side of a joint and closes the other side. There is another set that does precisely the opposite. You cannot open without closing. My expansion causes both opening and closing.

From my feeling and procedure of expansion comes basic Peng energy. It has no inherent opposite in Yang Style, but should always be present. In usage, Ward Off can be used in opposition to Roll Back energy, but underneath, they are both really representations of the same underlying energy. You do not expand for Ward Off, and then contract for Roll Back.

Water only floats a boat, it never sinks it; and yet energy using the water in a wave can absolutely sink a boat. In fact, if you ever have played in decent ocean waves, it becomes apparent that the energy makes the water go in a rolling, circular pattern. If you are in the wrong position, the wave will roll down on top of you and try to crush you, even as the quality of the water continues to float you all the time. The energy crushes you; the water just floats along.

Study just about any of the “pulling” motions in our form. Notice how we generally do not actually end up in a position with the elbow bent much if it can be avoided. To me, this is because we do not produce the pull by a contracting feeling, but rather an expanding feeling that prefers to end in a full curve rather than contract into a sharp angle.

I should also clarify that at the level of biomechanics and biochemistry, you can deliberately only contract a muscle. Our muscles cannot expand on command, and that is why you cannot order your muscles to relax in the middle of a cramp. Despite this, the feeling I am talking about is one of expansion in the joints. It is actually the Yiin side of what is inherently a Yang movement.

Lim,

I really, really liked your post,even though I might have expressed some things a little differently. It is the first time I recall you describing theory at length, and I was surprised how much of your description seemed to fit with my personal feeling and understanding. There were actually too many good points for me to call out any specific ones.
To execute a good and powerful drive, you have to be "song" from the start of the swing to its end. If any tension creeps in, be it the fingers, hands, legs, core, neck, etc. the swing will not be optimum and you will lose power and direction. And, the mind also plays a huge part. "Visualisation" provides the "Intent" for the swing and where you want the ball to land. The mind needs to be "still" and focused and relaxed, without errant thoughts or tension else the swing will be ineffectual.
Isn't Taiji wonderful
?
In the first few days or weeks, I can guarantee you that all beginners will tighten their muscles on all their movements. From here, we can learn that the students are not in the "song" state. I don't like to use the word "relax" for the translation of "鬆". I would rather say when one is in the "鬆" state; the muscles are NOT contracted. As I had mentioned before, "鬆" is pertaining to the muscles only in the native language regardless of Taiji.
I don’t want to agree or disagree with these statement so much as clarify what I understand what the Yang family says about making the mind and body “song.”

The first thing to understand is that making the body “song” is something you do physically and all the time. It is not really a state that is naturally self sustaining, and it is not really about mental activity even though you must consciously do it.

Separately from making the body physically “song,” it is also important, especially in push hands, to make the mind “song” to allow the energy to move as required. Thus, both the body and mind must by “song,” but these are best treated as separate issues even if there is some interaction.

Take care,
Audi
Bob Ashmore
Posts: 754
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:01 am
Location: Frankfort, KY, USA

Re: How to Relax in Tai Chi?

Post by Bob Ashmore »

Audi,
I cannot take credit for this method, it is what I was taught by the teachers at the Wu Academy a very long time ago.
As I was taught, so I now teach.
Semantics matter to me as well, since this is a mind game it is pretty much all semantics right from the get go.
The right set of semantics can be a powerful learning tool, the wrong ones...
Well, that's how people learn to do wrong things.
Once a wrong thing is learned, it is very difficult to unlearn it.
So I try to use the right semantics, it cuts down on work later on.

Learning these types of things are when a good teacher is vital, he or she will be able to recognize when you are ready to advance to another level and can supply you the method to do so as well as keep you from wasting time on incorrect methods.
Without a good teacher it would be nearly impossible to learn this method, or pretty much any method in TCC.
I know of no way to figure this one out on your own, the rest are pretty much the same.
Which is why I rarely discuss these kinds of things publicly like I have here.
It was only the OP being so darned close, but no cookie, that started me down the road of talking about this method.
I actually kind of regret doing so, as it is one of the most powerful lessons anyone can learn.
My only solace is that I doubt, highly, that anyone will actually learn the method from what I have said about it here.
Mostly because just about 99% of the people who read about it simply laugh at it and move on. "It will never work!" being the most often made statement at that point.
That's fine with me, laugh, move on, don't look back. It's up to you.
I get that same thing said, over and over again, when I teach this method in person as well.
As soon as I hear that, in either forum, I simply agree and move on.
Why? Good question, I'm glad you asked.
Because a closed mind is the most difficult nut to crack in the universe.
I have better things to do with my time than try to convince someone who has already closed his mind entirely to what is true.
So I don't even try.

Your bow analogy is a good one as it is best in the end not to consider either opening or closing, rather to consider only what you intend to do then let your body do it naturally.
By the time you reach that level your body already knows what to do, so stop telling it and let it do things on its own.
That will be good.

Bob Bu Hao (and how!)
yslim
Posts: 184
Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 6:01 am
Location: Monterey,Ca. USA
Contact:

Re: How to Relax in Tai Chi?

Post by yslim »

Audi wrote: Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:28 pm
Lim,

I really, really liked your post,even though I might have expressed some things a little differently. It is the first time I recall you describing theory at length, and I was surprised how much of your description seemed to fit with my personal feeling and understanding. There were actually too many good points for me to call out any specific ones.
To execute a good and powerful drive, you have to be "song" from the start of the swing to its end. If any tension creeps in, be it the fingers, hands, legs, core, neck, etc. the swing will not be optimum and you will lose power and direction. And, the mind also plays a huge part. "Visualisation" provides the "Intent" for the swing and where you want the ball to land. The mind needs to be "still" and focused and relaxed, without errant thoughts or tension else the swing will be ineffectual.
Isn't Taiji wonderful
?
In the first few days or weeks, I can guarantee you that all beginners will tighten their muscles on all their movements. From here, we can learn that the students are not in the "song" state. I don't like to use the word "relax" for the translation of "鬆". I would rather say when one is in the "鬆" state; the muscles are NOT contracted. As I had mentioned before, "鬆" is pertaining to the muscles only in the native language regardless of Taiji.
I don’t want to agree or disagree with these statement so much as clarify what I understand what the Yang family says about making the mind and body “song.”

The first thing to understand is that making the body “song” is something you do physically and all the time. It is not really a state that is naturally self sustaining, and it is not really about mental activity even though you must consciously do it.

Separately from making the body physically “song,” it is also important, especially in push hands, to make the mind “song” to allow the energy to move as required. Thus, both the body and mind must by “song,” but these are best treated as separate issues even if there is some interaction.

Take care,
Audi

Good Morning Audi
Thank you for your stamp of approval. Coming from you means a lot! Maybe this means my Taiji practice had improved?
Sorry about my lengthy reply to dottaichi. it was DPasek’s reply to dottaicji with his word ”simplistic” that actually inspired me for the previous long post. I always have my utmost respect for Dpasek Taiji evaluation. I was also moved by dottaichi’s sincere desired to share to improve his taiji with this discussion board. So I decided to give dottaichi a line-by-line base on his post to share my own experience to see if the shoe fits.

“?”.…My question exactly….based on the format of your post…Do you attribute these 2 quoted statements to me or are they just your random pick to reply? The quotation above is from Frank (fchai), and the below quotation is from CD (Chi Dragon). Perhaps you might want to address it to them where credit is due.

Ciao,
yslim
Audi
Posts: 1238
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 7:01 am
Location: New Jersey, USA

Re: How to Relax in Tai Chi?

Post by Audi »

Greeting Lim,
“?”.…My question exactly….based on the format of your post…Do you attribute these 2 quoted statements to me or are they just your random pick to reply? The quotation above is from Frank (fchai), and the below quotation is from CD (Chi Dragon). Perhaps you might want to address it to them where credit is due.
No, I actually did not attribute the statements to you. I was trying to be diplomatic and not appear that was being nitpicking or calling anybody out about a casual statement. Instead, my formatting probably just read awkwardly. Sorry for that.

Take care,
Audi
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