I have practiced Yang Family Taijiquan for 3 years. During this time I have been doing the traditional Yang style form (103 postures) in about 30 minutes. However I read an article of Fu Zhongwen on Tai Chi Magazine that said this: "The fastest you can go with the 85 movements or the 108 would be 18 minutes and the slowest would be 22 minutes. You don't want to go past that. The ideal is 20 minutes exactly"
I watched a video of Dr. Yang Jwing Ming and he also performs it (108 postures) in about 20 minutes.
Could anyone tell me if the traditional Yang style form also should be performed in 20 minutes?
Thanks and take care.
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Regards, Ferdy RatTara.
Fitness coach and entreprenuer.
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uKeTc|/7S<?z
Re: uKeTc|/7S<?z
Greetings Ferdy,
From what I recall, the current Yang family recommends between 20-25 minutes for practice of their form. Here is a link to one of the Seattle Center Directors calling the form: https://yangfamilytaichi.com/documents/103-calling.mp3. Her overall pace is basically the same as my current one.
The fact that some teachers differ on form length is not surprising, since often their forms differ. Even if they don't differ in number of postures, they can still differ in fine details that affect speed.
Dr. Yang Jwing Ming's form is clearly Yang Style, but differs quite substantially from the current Yang Family form in many aspects. The form taught by the Fu Family is quite close to the current Yang Family form, but still differs in a number of details. If you practice either of those forms, I would suggest to follow their advice as to form length. If you follow the Yang Family form, then follow their suggestions.
Lastly, I have heard statements attributed to the Fu Family about form length that seem much more definitive in tone than what I hear from the current Yang Family. Rather than talk about any specific ideal length, the latter tend to talk more about recommended ranges.
Take care,
Audi
From what I recall, the current Yang family recommends between 20-25 minutes for practice of their form. Here is a link to one of the Seattle Center Directors calling the form: https://yangfamilytaichi.com/documents/103-calling.mp3. Her overall pace is basically the same as my current one.
The fact that some teachers differ on form length is not surprising, since often their forms differ. Even if they don't differ in number of postures, they can still differ in fine details that affect speed.
Dr. Yang Jwing Ming's form is clearly Yang Style, but differs quite substantially from the current Yang Family form in many aspects. The form taught by the Fu Family is quite close to the current Yang Family form, but still differs in a number of details. If you practice either of those forms, I would suggest to follow their advice as to form length. If you follow the Yang Family form, then follow their suggestions.
Lastly, I have heard statements attributed to the Fu Family about form length that seem much more definitive in tone than what I hear from the current Yang Family. Rather than talk about any specific ideal length, the latter tend to talk more about recommended ranges.
Take care,
Audi
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global village idiot
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Re: uKeTc|/7S<?z
If you don't mind my asking, what makes the time we take important?
This is not a flippant or dismissive question. Rather, it is meant to inquire as to the value of time as a standard of performance.
To my thinking, the "ten essentials" are more important than the time it takes to get them right.
To me, anyone saying "The form should take such-and-such amount of time" is simply giving their notion of how much time to plan for, to make sure everything is done right, understanding that the important thing is "everything else is done right." I could do everything wrong in the form concerning alignment, harmony, the postures themselves and so forth, and still meet the "time hack," but what good would that do me?
One of my classmates likes to see how long he can drag the form out. He'd take 45 minutes if you let him. He thinks he's learning something and maybe he is, but I also believe that if you do this too much, you inculcate bad habits such as stiffness, interrupting flow, focus on the wrong things, etc. I think the things he's getting from dragging the form out are the same things you get from zhan zhuang. But he doesn't make a habit of it, therefore it's not worth arguing over.
Conversely, every so often we pick the pace up as though we were performing the movements "at speed." This too has its own risks if done too often, sloppiness being the most obvious.
But we don't do either extreme all the time. There's probably no harm (and something worth learning) in experimenting now and then with tempo (as opposed to time), while still focusing on the essentials.
gvi
This is not a flippant or dismissive question. Rather, it is meant to inquire as to the value of time as a standard of performance.
To my thinking, the "ten essentials" are more important than the time it takes to get them right.
To me, anyone saying "The form should take such-and-such amount of time" is simply giving their notion of how much time to plan for, to make sure everything is done right, understanding that the important thing is "everything else is done right." I could do everything wrong in the form concerning alignment, harmony, the postures themselves and so forth, and still meet the "time hack," but what good would that do me?
One of my classmates likes to see how long he can drag the form out. He'd take 45 minutes if you let him. He thinks he's learning something and maybe he is, but I also believe that if you do this too much, you inculcate bad habits such as stiffness, interrupting flow, focus on the wrong things, etc. I think the things he's getting from dragging the form out are the same things you get from zhan zhuang. But he doesn't make a habit of it, therefore it's not worth arguing over.
Conversely, every so often we pick the pace up as though we were performing the movements "at speed." This too has its own risks if done too often, sloppiness being the most obvious.
But we don't do either extreme all the time. There's probably no harm (and something worth learning) in experimenting now and then with tempo (as opposed to time), while still focusing on the essentials.
gvi
The important things are always simple.
The simple things are always hard.
The easy way is always mined.
- from Murphy's Laws of Combat
The simple things are always hard.
The easy way is always mined.
- from Murphy's Laws of Combat
Re: uKeTc|/7S<?z
Greetings GVI,
For example, one of the reasons I think we do the hand form at a relatively flow pace is so that we do not carry momentum in the lower body as we shift weight and are forced to create our own flow. This helps with developing agility in shifting weight in fine increments and is mainly what we mean by “distinguish full and empty” in the case of weight. If you go too slowly, I think it becomes hard to distinguish and train full and empty with respect to the “waist” and upper body.
In the weapons form, we have the added challenge of sending energy into the weapon. I think a slightly faster pace is warranted to facilitate this feeling.
Of course, there are a myriad Tai Chi forms designed by a myriad teachers. I think it is best to consult the designers and custodians of those forms as to the best speed to gain the hoped for benefits.
Take care,
Audi
Your further comments seem to give a good answer to your own question. In doing the form faster or slower, you gain and lose things. Compared to the standard pace, you probably lose more than you gain since the form details are designed with that specific pace in mind.If you don't mind my asking, what makes the time we take important?
For example, one of the reasons I think we do the hand form at a relatively flow pace is so that we do not carry momentum in the lower body as we shift weight and are forced to create our own flow. This helps with developing agility in shifting weight in fine increments and is mainly what we mean by “distinguish full and empty” in the case of weight. If you go too slowly, I think it becomes hard to distinguish and train full and empty with respect to the “waist” and upper body.
In the weapons form, we have the added challenge of sending energy into the weapon. I think a slightly faster pace is warranted to facilitate this feeling.
Of course, there are a myriad Tai Chi forms designed by a myriad teachers. I think it is best to consult the designers and custodians of those forms as to the best speed to gain the hoped for benefits.
I also don’t see anything wrong in this attitude. Each of us is responsible for own learning, even if w3e are doing our best to model that learning after a teacher.There's probably no harm (and something worth learning) in experimenting now and then with tempo(as opposed to time), while still focusing on the essentials.
Take care,
Audi