Yang Family Dao Questions

[lu rui ting]

edited

[lu rui ting]

edited

[lao-pei]

3.3 The Ring Skills

Daohuan – the ring at the end of a Taiji Dao can be grasped and manipulated by
the empty hand to assist the main sword hand. Although both hands are used in
these circumstances, ring skills are different from regular two-handed grips. Usually a
two-handed grip adds power at the expense of liveliness and agility. Using the ring
adds less power but retains more nimbleness and control. As opposed to the typically
large movements of two hands in a two-handed grip, ring skills involve small, quick
movements by the rear hand holding the ring, all the while the front hand, on the
handle, remains relatively still.

Compared to one-handed grips, holding the ring with the empty hand in Taiji Dao
yields greater power. Compared to regular two-handed grips, it yields greater
liveliness and agility. Overall, ring grips balance the relative advantages and
disadvantages of other kinds of grips. Some skills using the ring are:

Tui uses the center of the palm of the empty hand to push forward on the ring.
The opposite of tui is la – pulling using the thumb and two or three fingers that are
hooked through the ring. In ti, the sword hand remains relatively still, while the thumb
and two or three fingers of the rear hand are hooked through the ring and pull up on
it, causing the front of the sword to move downward. The opposite of ti is ya - hooking
the thumb and two or three fingers through the ring and pushing down on it, while the
sword hand remains relatively still. The downward push on the ring causes the front of
the sword to move upward. Yao is waving, where the fingers are hooked through the
ring and move it in circles in front of the body. It makes the tip of the sword to circle
through an ever-larger spiral.


Different Taiji Dao skills are used to defend against different types of weapons.
The way different parts of the sword are used can also vary widely depending on the
opponent’s weapon. Even when the same skill and part of the sword are used, the
internal feeling may differ from one situation to another. Because of these
complexities, we should not limit our sword practice to the study of the sword alone.
We should also research the skills required for the proper use of other weapons.
by Shifu Zhang Yun

From http://www.ycgf.org/Articles/TJ_Dao/Taiji_Dao-2.html

recommended by Horacio Lopez (ex-Director Department Ranking Standards Yang Family Association)

[lao-pei]

see video related to previous comment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63UXHgkP ... e=youtu.be

[Bob Ashmore]

Lao-Pei,
That's pretty awesome. I've got a lot of studying to do.
Thanks.

One use for the ring that just occurred to me as I was watching and reading the above...
If your saber gets stuck in your opponents body, you can grasp the ring to pull it out.
Yes, I know. But we're not talking about a knitting needle.

Suddenly a lot of the Yang Family saber form makes much more sense to me.

Bob

[Isaac888]

Lao Pei,

Suddenly it makes sense. Thank you for the kind contribution.
Just like Bob, I will explore these techniques. Hope I don't hurt any one.

If I may add a thought, I feel the ribbons attached to the ring has a more deadly application.
It is an extention of the Dao.

Cheer.

Isaac

[DPasek]

Lao-Pei,

Thanks for posting the information from Zhang Yun. He is my favorite author on Taijiquan and I think very highly of his book on Taijidao (as well as his various other publications). Shown are very good techniques for using the ring pommel, but I suspect that the ring pommel existed in Chinese culture prior to being adapted by the Yang and Wu families of Taijiquan.

I am no authority on the matter, but my understanding is that the S-guard and ring pommel appeared in non-regulation weapons (dao) after the fall of the Ming dynasty; and some people speculate that the S-guard may have symbolized “defeat the Qing and restore the Ming.” The ring pommel seems to be closely associated with the S-guard and can be seen in period photos showing ‘boxers” (Boxer Rebellion) carrying various types of dao (rarely, but occasionally with cloth flags attached). Perhaps the ring guard was also a symbolic representation of Ming (the sun and moon which make up the character for ming both being circular objects). I don’t know, but it seems like these characteristics may have come about for symbolic or aesthetic reasons and were only later adapted to usages of the features as given by Zhang Yun.

Likewise, while we often think about attaching cloths to the pommel of dao (and tassels to the pommels of jian) I am not certain that this was as widespread a tradition in the past as it is now. For example, most period paintings (Qing dynasty) that include people with dao show a simple cord loop attached through a hole near the pommel rather than cloth flags attached to the end of the pommel. It is possible that the usage of the cloth flags on dao (and tassels on jian) is a later convention associated with the increased popularity of performance rather than actual usage in combat. Just like the silk clothing used today for performances of dao and jian forms was unlikely to be what was worn in combat, I suspect that the cloth flags and tassels have been added to the weapons primarily for performance aesthetics.

Still, I am not saying that the cloth (or tassel) was not used earlier in history, just that it seems like their usage may not have been very common. It is also likely that the usage of the non weapon holding hand to aid in the control of the dao (and jian) was relatively common as it seems to appear more commonly in various forms that I am aware of. It is just the specific usage of the fingers through the ring than I think was probably added later. If you have a feature in the tools that you use (like the ring on this type of dao), then adapt a way to advantageously use it!

DP

[Bob Ashmore]

I have been having a ball with the ring on the end of my Dao.
It really is a force multiplier. I'm SO glad I found this technique.
A few weeks ago I got my hands on two Nerf N-force Marauder long swords: http://www.hasbro.com/nerf/en_US/shop/d ... t_id=27755
You can't buy them anyplace but from Hasbro's website any more, at least not around here.
They're the same length and nearly the same weight as Yang family Jian's, but the handle is longer and the blade shorter.
I tried the smaller Nerf swords but they are too short and don't have any weight.
Anyway, I use them with my partner for push swords and sword sparring. They're pretty awesome for this purpose for two reasons:
We can practice together in a local park without having the police called on us.
We can get as "swashbuckler" crazy as we want on each other and no one gets hurt.
The first time we used them my partner said, "This thing feels more like a Dao than a Jian."
I had to agree. It took us a while to figure out why though.
The longer handle.
It's almost identical to the handle on a Yang Family Dao.
And...
It has the handy round pommel on the end of it, though it is solid and not a ring.
Once I figured that out, I grabbed a hold of it and started to use it like the ring on the Dao.
And it works nearly as well.
It would be better if it was a ring, because then you could put your fingers through it like on the Dao.
But it's still a very good force multiplier.
When I realized this, I began to use it against my partner.
Who was absolutely overcome the very first time.
It took him a while to figure out what I was doing, but once he did he picked it up pretty quickly and started using it himself.
Anyway, while not a perfect fit for either the Jian or the Dao these $20 foam swords are worth their weight in gold for practicing either weapon.
I highly recommend them.
Unfortunately Hasbro/Nerf doesn't make a foam saber that even comes close to the Dao. All of their foam sabers are way too short and light for that purpose.
Still, I am learning a lot about using both weapons from this one foam sword.
The first thing I learned:
I don't know how to use a Jian or a Dao!
It's not as easy as the old Kung Fu movies make it look, that's for sure.
And despite what you think you know from doing the form, it sure doesn't work like that in reality!
Once we figured out that a LOT of the sword and saber forms are based entirely on how you move when your blade is in contact with an opponent though we started to figure things out.
You can't move like you do when you're doing the solo form when in combat. It just doesn't work.
So with one person being the aggressor and the other the defender we have started from the very first movement of each form and have been working with each other to feel what the movement is like when in contact.
VERY educational, let me tell you.
We're through the saber form but are still working on the sword form. It's a tad longer...
If anyone knows where we can get a good foam facsimile of a Dao, let me know.
Oh, under $50 please.
I know about LARP weapons. They cost more than the real thing!
We're poor folk! We can't afford those until one of us hits the lottery.

[ChiDragon]

Hi folks,

Some questions have come up regarding the Yang Family Saber that I hope some of you long-time practitioners might be able to shed some light upon.

First regards the poem that describes the movements. Where did it come from, was it created by the Yang Family?

Second, when did the Yang family change saber styles? Yang Jun has said, without certainty, that it changed sometime between Yang Jian Hou's later time and Yang Cheng Fu's early time... I've seen videos of Yang Zhen Ji doing saber with a more traditional looking saber, it was nearly identical to the current form. I also wonder why they changed.

Third, its shape is unique, like a cross between a Katana and western cavalry saber with a ring at the end. What is that ring for? I thought, perhaps, one could attach a lanyard to the ring to avoid being disarmed.

Any insight into these questions would be helpful. Thanks and peace.

Eric

It was my curiosity too. It just happened to be that had ran across something about why the Yang sabre style had changed recently. At one time during a Tai Chi demo by Yang Cheng Fu, after his performance, someone asked him to do the sabre demo too. However, there was no traditional sabre available. Fortunately, it happens to be there was a Japanese samurai sword around. Even though it was called a sword, but according to the Chinese definition it is a sabre. It is because a Chinese sword has double edge blade and a sabre only has one. Anyway, Yang Cheng Fu borrowed to perform the sabre demo. After the demo, he felt the samurai sword was very handy. Therefore, he had modified it with the combination of the Chinese sword and sabre and ended up with the new version.

The cross had mentioned above is the hand guard was derived from a Buddhist symbol 卍(counterclockwise).

Here is the manufacturer description of the sabre:
https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/35970479
杨氏太极刀简介
一、杨氏太极刀刀制
杨式太极刀是特制刀，是杨澄甫先生晚年定型的。该刀全长约1米左右，分为刀身、刀盘、刀柄三部分，刀身有刀刃、刀尖、刀背三部分。刀身形状似如倭刀，细长呈弧形，长约80厘米，宽约3.5－4厘米，刀身前窄后宽，宽度前后变化不大。刀身上有两道血槽，刀身前10厘米处形状如剑，两面有刃，与刀尖弧形相连； 刀身后部约10厘米处无刃，厚约0.4厘米－0.5厘米。刀柄是直柄，长约20厘米，一端衔接刀盘，一端衔接刀环。刀盘为“卐字”弯头，刀背一侧弯头朝向刀尖，刀刃一侧弯头朝向刀柄；刀环为圆形，直径大约4－5厘米。刀鞘是起保护刀身和佩带的作用，刀环上系着彩色丝绸方巾，称为刀袍或刀彩。


PS The description will be translated in the near future.

[DPasek]

It was my curiosity too. It just happened to be that had ran across something about why the Yang sabre style had changed recently. At one time during a Tai Chi demo by Yang Cheng Fu, after his performance, someone asked him to do the sabre demo too. However, there was no traditional sabre available. Fortunately, it happens to be there was a Japanese samurai sword around. Even though it was called a sword, but according to the Chinese definition it is a sabre. It is because a Chinese sword has double edge blade and a sabre only has one. Anyway, Yang Cheng Fu borrowed to perform the sabre demo. After the demo, he felt the samurai sword was very handy. Therefore, he had modified it with the combination of the Chinese sword and sabre and ended up with the new version.

The regulation dao designs for the Qing Dynasty (e.g. in the Huangchou Ligi Tushi) never included the s-shaped guard or the ring pommel, AFAIK. This means that this design was more folk influenced (village smiths, etc.) rather than weapons makers for the military troops, and as such, records are unlikely to have been kept. But, the Yang Chengfu story does not seem very plausible to me.

Since YCF did not start seriously studying TJQ until after his father’s death in 1917, this would mean that the story of YCF using a samurai sword would have had to have taken place between then and YCF’s death in 1936. Since both Yang and Wu styles use the dao with the stated folk design, this means that YCF would have needed to have a Japanese samurai sword (dao) custom modified with the Chinese hardware, and he would have had to convince Wu stylists to also use this version of dao. But the Wu style founder lived from 1812-1880, well before YCF’s time, so if Wu style had a dao form from the founder’s time, then they would not have been using the YCF modified style dao. Still, this is possible, however unlikely.

So, could Japanese blades have been used in China prior to the Republic Period? Definitely! There are sources from as far back as 1060 (Song Dynasty) that recorded a Chinese admiration of Japanese blades, and there are records of over 75,000 being imported between 1432 and 1547 during the Ming Dynasty. Japanese blades were also acquired from the Wokou pirates along the Chinese coast during the time of General Qi Jiguang.

Japanese blades were also considered to be luxury items for the wealthy during the early Qing. Most Japanese blades used by the Chinese seem to have had their hardware made in Chinese styles. For example, the Metropolitan Museum of Art collection includes a peidao (ca. 1750-1800) with a Japanese blade that has traditional regulation Chinese mounts including inset gemstones [fangshi squared or angular style of pommel with peening over of the tang at the end; typical fashion guard and braided silk cord (sikou) grip wrap; with a traditional Chinese scabbard). However, this example has a Japanese koshizori curvature for the blade and is therefore classified as a peidao in Chinese terminology, and this curvature is different than what is used for both Yang and Wu styles, making it less likely that Japanese blades were the inspiration for the TJQ dao uses by these two family styles.

The dao curvature used by the Yang and Wu styles is, however, the same as the regulation yanmaodao (goose-quill dao) type, making it even less likely that they were influenced by Japanese blades which had different curvatures. I, therefore, consider the Yang (and Wu) style of dao to be standard regulation yanmaodao blades with folk rather than regulation fittings. I also consider the quoted information from ChiDragon to be just speculative fiction perhaps based on some anecdote, and unlikely to be true – unless reliable corroborating evidence can be presented.

[ChiDragon]

杨氏太极刀简介
一、杨氏太极刀刀制
杨式太极刀是特制刀，是杨澄甫先生晚年定型的。该刀全长约1米左右，分为刀身、刀盘、刀柄三部分，刀身有刀刃、刀尖、刀背三部分。刀身形状似如倭刀，细长呈弧形，长约80厘米，宽约3.5－4厘米，刀身前窄后宽，宽度前后变化不大。刀身上有两道血槽，刀身前10厘米处形状如剑，两面有刃，与刀尖弧形相连； 刀身后部约10厘米处无刃，厚约0.4厘米－0.5厘米。刀柄是直柄，长约20厘米，一端衔接刀盘，一端衔接刀环。刀盘为“卐字”弯头，刀背一侧弯头朝向刀尖，刀刃一侧弯头朝向刀柄；刀环为圆形，直径大约4－5厘米。刀鞘是起保护刀身和佩带的作用，刀环上系着彩色丝绸方巾，称为刀袍或刀彩。

The quote is from the Chinese manufacturer. Here is the translation as follows:

A simple introduction of the Yang style sabre(杨氏太极刀简介)
1. The made of the Yang style sabre
It is a special design for the Yang style sabre. The design was finalized by Yang Cheng Fu at his later years. Its length is approximately one meter. It consist of three parts, the blade, guard and handle. The blade consists a sharp edge, sharp point and the back. The shape of the blade is similar to a Japanese samurai sword(倭刀) with a small curvature. It is approximately 80 cm in length, the width is approximately 3.5 to 4 cm. The front of the blade is narrow and wider in the rear. The width from front to end is not much different. There are two troughs on the body of the blade.

The first 10 cm in the front end of the blade is shaped like a the sword. It is sharp on both edges. It has a cured edge at the tip of the blade. 10 cm from the end of the blade which has no sharpen edge. The width is approximately 2.4 to 0.5 cm. The handle is straight and 20 cm long. One end is linked to the hand guard and the other end is licked to the ring. The hand guard is adopted the Buddhist symbol “卍字”. The curvature of the hand guard at the back end is pointing toward the tip of the sabre. The curvature at sharp edge is point to the handle. The ring is circular with a diameter of 4 to 5 cm....etc.


FYI The Yang style sabre was designed for practice purpose only. It was not popular used by other families. As a matter of fact, most families used the traditional sabre(武術刀). The Yang style sabre was not officially used by the government during any era.

The first time I have seen the sabre was in a Tai Chi tournament. I saw a group of Yang Tai Chi practitioners carry the sabre. Luckily, I have possession of both the Yang style and traditional sabres. The Yang style sabre is much easier to handle as suggested by Yang Cheng Fu. It has a different feeling between a sword and a sabre. It was due the weight distribution of the blade of the sabre. In comparison, the sword has two sharp edges and the sabre only has one. The sharp edge of the sabre is thinner than the back. The weight of the back is heavier than the sharp edge. Thus it makes the swing very smooth.

Here is a very good GOU 韜鈞56 style, using a much thinner and lighter traditional sabre, to practice. However, I am falling in love with this style. I am practicing this style with a Yang Style Tai Cho sabre.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-tkuoEErgI

[global village idiot]

Pure conjecture on my part, but it's based on established precedent, and only in very limited application.

I've seen more discussions on "what are the scarves for?" and no one seems to have a definitive answer - likely because there's more than one. Of them, I'd like to submit one possibility, particularly in a military context.

If you look at the photographs of the soldiers with a dadao, not everyone has a scarf attached. In formations, maybe one will in each rank. If you've ever been in a formation of ANY type, you know that under no circumstance will soldiers display items of personal adornment or affectation. On the march or in combat - maybe; NEVER when submitting to inspection. So it's there for a reason other than ornament - but what could that reason be?

A hint may come from photos of other soldiers in other armies wearing contrasting cloth panels on their backs. An easy example to find is the "Diggers" of the ANZAC force in Gallipoli during WWI. Several such soldiers in any company-sized unit wore white or red colored panels pinned or tucked onto their packs or webbing in order that regimental commanders (who have no legitimate business being at the front of formations) could identify various units and track their progress.

Extrapolating only slightly, the scarf at the end of a dadao makes sense in this context. The units who used them are often referred to in modern discussions as "special forces" soldiers - a quite different meaning than the horribly-beweaponed eggheads who graduate from the JFKSWCS nowadays. The historical record informs us that when they were "loaded for bear," it was typically with a pistol of some description (often a C96 Mauser), some grenades and a dadao.

In use, the pistols and the grenades would come out first as they're closing with the Japanese - their dadaos would be slung and stowed because like everyone else they only have two hands - one for a pistol and one for a grenade. The scarf on the dadao lends itself rather conveniently to tracking the unit's progress until they get close enough to start mixing it up with the sword. Getting the sword out under such conditions is not gone into, but the fact that they had to close with and engage a rifle-and-bayonet wielding enemy (who by the way had access to machine guns, tanks, artillery and occasional close-air-support) with only pistols, grenades and swords indicates they had MUCH bigger problems than convenient access to the sword.

Civilian militia groups may have adopted scarves as affectation, and like poorly-trained rear-echelon irregulars everywhere, it stands to reason that their commanders had bigger fish to fry than worrying whether they were decorating their weapons. If modern experience is any guide, said commanders were probably just pleasantly surprised to see at least half of their militia members present in formation and their weapons accounted for at all.

So while there may be other uses or intents for the scarf - particularly in a civilian context - it seems plausible if not likely that the scarf on the dadao was used as a form of unit identification on the approach to contact.

As for using the pommel in a manner similar to Talhoffer's Fechtbuch (a move HEMA players call "ending him rightly" after a quote from said book), I confess I remain unconvinced as relates to Chinese swordsmanship. It works in European context, but generally only on exposed body parts - note that there was almost always a padded arming cap UNDER the helmet, and a padded gambeson jacket under the plate. It may have made sense in a trial-by-combat, a duel, in a tournament or against a common foot soldier, not against a man-at-arms in proper plate. Remember also that Talhoffer has a panel in his Fechtbuch that discusses unscrewing the pommel and throwing it at the opponent - one wonders if that passage wasn't written in jest (the Germans have a bizarre sense of humor). Lastly, bear in mind that in China, lamellar or "mountain" armor was far more common than plate; and being flexible as well as padded, did a fair job of dispersing the energy of blunt trauma. Perhaps their armor's effectiveness against blunt trauma is the reason we seldom see military war hammers in China, but lots-and-lots of bladed weapons.

The exposed face of their helmets is a different story and in a melee, everything's up for grabs.

gvi

[ChiDragon]

Pure conjecture on my part, but it's based on established precedent, and only in very limited application.

I've seen more discussions on "what are the scarves for?" and no one seems to have a definitive answer - likely because there's more than one. Of them, I'd like to submit one possibility, particularly in a military context.

gvi

Hi, gvi
I have practice the Tai Chi sword for three years and few months with the sabre. I do not have the full authority on the subject; but I do have a little understand about the scarves. They were used for balance of the sabre during a swing and other movements. I had verified by making a swing without the scarves. The sabre was heavy in the front and tends to fly off my hand. With the scarves, the sabre is more balance and stable in motion. Also, the applies to the sword with the tassels.

[global village idiot]

I don't doubt it with weapons made for fine technique. It makes sense for them to be used thus; however, remember I only brought up the military context, where there's really no place for a scarf or a tassel (a lanyard certainly, but not a tassel).

Proper military sabres such as were used by the Banner armies and others tend to be balanced well forward, which is consistent with use on horseback. Even infantry sabres have a balance somewhat forward of the guard for obvious reasons. By contrast, my own dao's balance is practically at the guard. Then again, its blade is far too light for combat, though not quite the whippy, floppy stage prop we often see wushu demonstrations made with.

Keeping the sabre from flying out of the hand, a natural tendency given the design of a dao's grip, is a matter of technique, particularly at the moment of impact (or where the moment of impact would be if we had a target) or follow-through. Not being able to see your form, I'd suggest the following:
o On chopping cuts, try to make sure that the wrist is the element that transmits the "jin" out to the blade, whereas the arm and body simply put the blade in the proper position.
o On drawing cuts, keep the wrist still and let the whole body transmit the "jin" into the blade.
The two cuts are best visualized from imagining that produced by a butcher's cleaver (chop) and that produced by a chef's carving knife (draw).
The tendency of using wrist and body together to deliver power to the blade gives it more impetus than the hand can control, and this is true of any sabre of any culture.
These two techniques work on almost any sabre-type blade, the exception being the Indian tulwar (design of grip forces a rigid wrist and draw cuts only).

Watch Yang Jun's technique and pay close attention to his wrist. The scarves really don't enter into it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aR2PY2o ... e=youtu.be

And in reference to a dadao (the sword we see in all the photos of the 29th Division and so on), it's a heavy, two-handed chopper produced locally out of everything from old railroad rails to truck leaf springs. Putting a scarf or flagging on a dadao for technique's sake is pointless, and yet those old photos show dadaos with flagging.

It was this context I referred to when I made my contribution.

Cheers!
gvi

[fchai]

Greetings,

In my opinion, the scarf on the handle for the dao, as is the tassel for the jian, are really for show. I have no problem using with or without. The dao's action is primarily that of slashing/cleaving, though it can also be used for stabbing and twisting when drawing out to cause grevious bodily harm. The dao I use has the balance point about a quarter of the way on the blade from the guard. This is much more forward of the guard compared to the jian, and clearly is to support the slashing/cleaving action. However, it is not too far forward so as to significantly compromise balance and responsiveness.

By the way, if the the dao flies out of your hand, with or without scarf attached, you need to reassess how you are gripping the dao. Your grip is probably too limp and gvi's suggestions on execution should also be heeded.

Take care,
Frank