Yang Family Dao Questions

[ChiDragon]

By the way, if the the dao flies out of your hand, with or without scarf attached, you need to reassess how you are gripping the dao. Your grip is probably too limp and gvi's suggestions on execution should also be heeded.

There are two balance points on the sabre. One is on the sabre itself by its construction. The other is depend on the hand grip of the practitioner and the counter balance at the end of the handle. The is why a Tai Chi sabre has a pommel added at the end. The scarves were attached is for a little drag from the air friction which counteract the weight in the front of the moving sabre. Hence, it will reduce the stress on the wrist with a smooth swing. This also will prevent to have a tighter grip on the handle to fight the sabre from flying off.

[global village idiot]

Chi Dragon, are you quite sure you know what you're talking about?

I ask because your responses sound like those of a person who's never sparred with a sword of any description. For my part, I sparred with my training partner yesterday, and have done so with my colleague at my school several times. And in those sparring sessions, two things relevant to this discussion became instantly apparent:
1) A scarf on the dao exerts a negligible force on the dao, relative to any other force acting upon it (the user, the opponent's blade, the opponent's body itself, etc), and
2) A scarf on the dao in sparring gets in the way and is a liability.

o If your grip on a sword of any type is so light as to be affected by the drag of a tassel or scarf, how on earth are you going to hang on to the thing when sparring? Even when working in the back-and-forth drills of Fu Zhongwen's manual, you try that limp-grip stuff and you're going to find yourself disarmed with clocklike regularity.
o If you're "binding" with an opponent (that is, your sword and his are in contact), do you seriously think the "air friction" of the scarves is making a meaningful contribution?
o If you're delivering a cut - either a chopping cut from the wrist or a draw cut from the arm/torso, and the "air friction" is the difference between a good cut and a poor one, how much energy is going to be in that cut?

There are apocryphal stories of scarves used after the fashion of lanyards, sword knots, etc. on military daos - they were to be wrapped around the wrist of the user to keep the sword from flying out of the hand while mounted. I now give them little credence. We see plenty of artwork from the Qing era depicting daos with lanyards, carried by soldiers who fought on horseback. A lanyard makes sense in a military context. A scarf makes none, except as I speculated previously (signaling/identification).

Lastly, if a sword is so designed that the presence or absence of a scarf/tassel is the difference between it staying in a competent user's hand or flying out, that would be a pretty awful sword design, wouldn't it?

As to why "the tai chi sabre has a pommel added at the end"...it's the same reason every sword for the last few millennia has had a pommel added at the end - it's a counterweight. There is nothing at all unique about the tai chi dao except that the one we all practice with is unfit for combat (a point you yourself made earlier). Its blade is too light and thin. Otherwise it's just a sabre with a slightly longer grip - nothing more.

And before I forget, there is only one point-of-balance on any sword ever made ever anywhere across the face of the globe at any time EVER. It's at a different place on each sword, but each sword has only ONE. You're an engineer - think back to your undergrad statics course! Any solid object has by definition a single point of balance. The "point-of-balance" discussed by sword users and sword makers is absolutely identical to and completely synonymous with the engineering concept of point-of-balance.

gvi

[ChiDragon]

Hi folks,

Some questions have come up regarding the Yang Family Saber that I hope some of you long-time practitioners might be able to shed some light upon.

First regards the poem that describes the movements. Where did it come from, was it created by the Yang Family?

Second, when did the Yang family change saber styles? Yang Jun has said, without certainty, that it changed sometime between Yang Jian Hou's later time and Yang Cheng Fu's early time... I've seen videos of Yang Zhen Ji doing saber with a more traditional looking saber, it was nearly identical to the current form. I also wonder why they changed.

Third, its shape is unique, like a cross between a Katana and western cavalry saber with a ring at the end. What is that ring for? I thought, perhaps, one could attach a lanyard to the ring to avoid being disarmed.

Any insight into these questions would be helpful. Thanks and peace.

Eric

Hi, gvi
I think we are going off tangent here by mixing apples with oranges. When we are speaking about weapons, I know you are a soldier and always in a combat mode. However, let's go back to the OP and go from there.

The OP is about a Japanese samurai sword, Katana, and a Yang style Tai Chi(YSTC) sabre. We must stay within the limits of the two sabres. As I had mentioned earlier, the YSTC sabre was a modified version of the Katana. In comparison, the Katana was made for combat; and the YSTC sabre was designed for the purpose of Tai Chi practice.

The Katana was made as a heavy weapon and requires a two-hand operation. Hence, in Yang Cheng Fu's demo only use one hand, he was not too comfortable with weight of the Katana. However, he likes the slim design of the Katana. Therefore, he modified it by making it much lighter for practice only. The YSTC sabre was not designed for combat. Since the YSTC sabre is much lighter than the Katana, by scarves at the end do hove some effect with the air friction. Since the sabre is moving forward, a little drag at the end will give a little counter action for the yin-yang effect.

In regard to the point of balance, of course, it only has one by itself without human intervention. However, with human intervention, the point of balance is at the grip by the hand guard. If the grip was shifted slightly toward the end of the handle, one should feel that the front blade is much heavier.

FYI Nowadays, the practice sabres are very thin like the Shaolin monks use, that is why you see big scarves were attached to the end. A dead give a way is the bigger the scarves the lighter the blade. Sometimes, if the scarves are lining up straight with the sabre during a thrust, one can tell that the swiftness of the practitioner is quite effective. Indeed, the scarves have no effect with heavier weapons but decoration.

[DPasek]

In comparison, the Katana was made for combat; and the YSTC sabre was designed for the purpose of Tai Chi practice.

I really do not understand the point of this comment. Do you think that the practice dao design is somehow better for learning TJQ than if someone used a historically accurate reproduction or an antique? What characteristics do you think are improvements over historical weapons? For myself, I think that most of the cheap reproductions available nowadays are a detriment to proper technique execution and a hindrance to the proper usage and understanding of these weapons in TJQ practice. I will stick with my antiques (from the mid-1800s) and reproductions made to come as close as possible to those antiques.

[ChiDragon]

In comparison, the Katana was made for combat; and the YSTC sabre was designed for the purpose of Tai Chi practice.

I really do not understand the point of this comment. Do you think that the practice dao design is somehow better for learning TJQ that if someone used a historically accurate reproduction or an antique? What characteristics do you think are improvements over historical weapons? For myself, I think that most of the cheap reproductions available nowadays are a detriment to proper technique execution and a hindrance to the proper usage and understanding of these weapons in TJQ practice. I will stick with my antiques (from the mid-1800s) and reproductions made to come as close as possible to those antiques.

A Katana is three(3) pounds in weight. The point of balance is about 4 to 6 inches from the hand guard. It is a two-hand operation. It is because most of the weight is distributed on the front blade. The hand grip, even with two hands, has to be very tight in order to hold the sabre in place. It is very unbalance which is not suitable for an one hand operation. Besides, it puts lots of stress on the wrist. In Tai Chi term, it is too yang in the front.

The design of the Yang style Tai Chi Sabre is well balanced. It weights two and half(2.5) pounds and was made for an one-hand operation. The point of balance is three(3) inches from the hand guard. The YSTC sabre is well balanced at the hand grip. The blade is tapper. It can be moved freely because the weight was distributed just right for Tai Chi practice. Indeed, it has the yin-yang attribute and was not designed for combat.



The weight of a Katana
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsYbRom3h7U

[DPasek]

A dao with the characteristics that you describe would fair poorly when compared to a historically accurate one, and indicates that you may only know weapons for performance, where the weapon is merely a prop. Perhaps the negatives could be overcome when using it two-handed, but it would be poorly designed for using one-handed against an opponent with a historically accurate jian or dao. It is similar to using a weapon from sport fencing against a historically accurate Western blade! Modern Western sport fencing weapons are good for the sport, but not for fighting against real weapons. Modern Chinese weapons are made for ease of waving around for solo performance, but would not be good for an actual sword fight against a historically accurate sword. I will stick with historically accurate weapons. They had hundreds of years of real usage in combat in order to reflect the necessities of combat; the reproduction weapons made for performance merely reflect the ease of use desired by the solo performer.

[DPasek]

Throughout the Qing Dynasty, practitioners of TJQ probably trained in swordsmanship as if they were using a real weapon, even if all they could afford was to pick up and use a branch that was lying on the ground. Today’s weapons, even if they look closer to real weapons, are only training one to dance with a theater prop; it is no longer teaching swordsmanship, unless practiced with the idea in mind of using a real weapon. I think that if all you are familiar with is modern prop reproductions, all you are doing is learning how to dance with a prop designed to make the dance easier. Don’t then presume that you actually understand swordsmanship – you really have only learned to better dance with that prop!

[ChiDragon]

The design of the Yang style Tai Chi Sabre is well balanced. It weights two and half(2.5) pounds and was made for an one-hand operation. The point of balance is three(3) inches from the hand guard. The YSTC sabre is well balanced at the hand grip. The blade is tapper. It can be moved freely because the weight was distributed just right for Tai Chi practice. Indeed, it has the yin-yang attribute and was not designed for combat.

The main concern of the OP is why did the design of the Yang Style Tai Chi sabre had ended up with the present configuration. Anyway, it was designed for Tai Chi practice only but not for killing. Perhaps a none Tai Chi practitioner doesn't know what Tai Chi is all about other than just a dance.

[DPasek]

You are referring to why non-historic performance weapons are designed the way that they are rather than historic weapons as used during the Qing Dynasty when TJQ was being developed?

Qing designs have reasons for them that concern handling properties during combat, and their understanding of Yin and Yang in relation to that weapon design would take the historic handling qualities into account. Performance weapons have altered characteristics that alter the historic handling qualities of the weapons. With altered handling characteristics of the weapons comes an altered ability when handling those altered weapons. Altered handling of altered weapons means that one’s understanding of the principles of TJQ in regard to that weapon is also altered. If all you know is handling altered weapons (performance props), then the theory (like yin and yang) that you apply to your practice is altered from the historic understanding. It is bad swordsmanship as well as bad TJQ! The information that you give is, to me, simply garbage (unrealistic speculative nonsense that is just in your head). You are both dancing your practice and just having thoughts dancing in your head. Get real!

[ChiDragon]

I need to get real with you perhaps.....

PS Why do you loose your cool all the time?

[global village idiot]

The discussion linked below goes over the topics covered here with considerable clarity:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11774

The best comment in it, to my thinking, is this:

I suspect that we're looking at a feature with a number of uses.

--symbolism. The chinese ring-hilt is distinctive. Yes, there were ring swords in Europe, but I think they had actual, separate, rings attached. Rings also make a place for nice tassels, although you certainly don't need a huge ring to tie a tassel on. Still, it does say "Chinese," and that's important.

--utility: the ring is a good way to transport or store weapons. And you could tie it to your hand. Or, if you're a movie protagonist in Princess Mononoke, you put your ring hilt on your arm like a bracelet to hold your sword while you shoot your bow. Neat trick that might even work in real life

--ease of construction: This one's something Neil pointed out, but we need to think about it. This design has two nice parts. First, it's easy for a smith to work on the handle. All he has to do is to heat and straighten the ring, and he can slide handle pieces on and off easily. Second, when the smith is making the sword, he can get the balance right without adding on a pommel, just by running out the tang until the balance point is correct, then shaping the tang into a ring. As a cheap way to make a blade, that ain't bad.

Other comments and photos of examples indicate that the ring on the dao goes back a heck of a long time - well before the development of Tai Chi in any form. It follows that when something has been around as long as ring pommels, someone is going to conjure up a purpose for its existence that its inventor never intended; and that before long, that purpose is going to be added to the "myth" of the thing as though this was the intent all along. We can see this phenomenon in the modern day - how many of us have had that one acquaintance who insists that the fuller on a sword or knife is a "blood groove" and is "banned by the Geneva Conventions"? This is just one example of how something can develop a legend which goes far afield of its original purpose.

As for you, Chi Dragon...

It's remarkably easy to lose one's cool when dealing with someone who is either being purposely obtuse or pointlessly pig-headed. The linked essay explains more fully than I could while still remaining in the bounds of decency. This quote is instructive, particularly as you say you've been at tai chi dao for only a few months, as opposed to the several years I have in tai chi dao and other sword disciplines, and the several decades of others who've tried to correct you:
"People with zero credibility [believe] they have the standing to offer unsolicited advice to genuine, established experts. This isn’t to say that experts are infallible, or that criticism is always unfounded. But to have your opinion respected, it must be believable, and if you lack that standing you’d...better be absolutely certain your criticism is well-founded and supported by strong evidence, because that’s all you have to go on at that point."

https://antistupidproject.com/2017/07/3 ... evability/

gvi

[ChiDragon]

Here is the native source or speculation which has not been revealed to the western part of the world.
https://zhidao.baidu.com/question/93593 ... 90612.html