Fast form

[global village idiot]

My two caveats are that you should not learn this form out of a sense that something key is missing from the Association’s curriculum or that the details of this form are instantly and automatically translatable to how we train. Someone doing either would probably not have a good understanding on how exactly we are supposed to train. To paraphrase one of my students, I could say that even good teaching can have undesirable side effects.

I have a fair few friends who are trainers in combat pistol marksmanship (the only martial art that truly originated in the United States), and they are fond of using a phrase that seems to communicate what your student is on about. They refer to bad habits picked up by effective trainers as "training scars."

Our class formally starts Tuesday, and we're meeting one last time in the park this Saturday. After our Saturday session, I mean to spend time with the senior instructor - in addition to asking him to teach me the "fast set" shown above (well enough to do if not to teach myself), I also want to discuss with him the possibility of us working much more systematically on tui-shou than our class had done in the past. This of course means the three of us "cadre" members need to "step up our push-hands game" and get much better at it than we are now. I'm convinced we are each capable enough in the art to get there mostly on our own, though we will be attending a workshop in the near future where we hope to learn more.

Back to the fast form, I'll keep an open mind toward it - thanks for the advice in this regard.

gvi

[fchai]

Hi Gvi,
What you posted showing a "fast form" is, if I may make a comment without offense, puzzling to me. I was taught the Tung Family Fast Form and the form shown in the video is not quite true to the original. Also, the Tung Family Fast Form comprises about 30 movements/actions/postures and does not meld with the Yang Family Long Form which the YouTube video does. The person demonstrating the form at the start kinda does most of the different postures, but misses out on quite a few. Then melding the form into the Yang Family Long Form, but doing it at speed is not something that the Tung Family would subscribe to. I would suggest that you get a copy of the form as executed by Tung Kai Ying on YouTube and you will understand what I mean. If you can't, drop me a line and I will see what I can do.
With regards to the Long Form as taught by the Tung Family, it follows to all intents and purpose the same as the traditional Yang Family Long Form. Outside of how some of the postures are executed and interpreted, the only two obvious differences are the transition movement from "Embrace Tiger and Carry to the Mountain" to "Fist under Elbow" and the final "Grasping Bird's Tail". If you can get a copy of the demonstration done by Tung Kai Ying you will see what I mean.
Take care,
Frank

[fchai]

Hi gvi,
One other thing. Some folks have the idea that because it is called the "fast form" it means that it is executed fast all through. WRONG! The Tung Family Fast Form has fast and slow segments. For instance, "Tucking the Gown" is executed fast but following "Single Whip", "Closing Energy", "Divine Crane Spreads Wings", "Holding the Pipa" and "Turning the Pipa" are all executed slowly. The following moves of "Split the Palm", etc. are done fast. So the form changes pace quite a lot. The fast moves are those where you can and should express jin.
By the way, the Tung Family Fast Form is sometimes also referred to as the Tung Family Taiji Quan.
Take care,
Frank

[global village idiot]

No offense taken whatsoever - if I'm posting something in innocent ignorance (and I certainly am), it would be foolish of me to claim any sort of ownership of it or personal investment in it.

For my part, however, I begin to get bewildered by the various forms. I found one which I think was what you referred to (though I'd be grateful for a link to exactly what you're on about), and I can see substantial differences, one to the other. What I have a harder time seeing, being perfectly honest, is how one "fast form" is of any more use than another. I'd be glad to be shown otherwise.

I'd also be grateful to be shown if I'm in error in concluding that the answer to my question, "[Would] becoming proficient in this form or one like it enhance teaching the standard set in a meaningful way?" is "Maybe, but probably not that much."

The more specific answer seems to be "Formal class starts tomorrow, gvi - FIRST THINGS FIRST!"

gvi

[fchai]

Greetings gvi,
I will get you the specific video of the fast form when I get back to base/home by next week. I am overseas at present.
Will learning the fast form make you more proficient? You have probably answered your own question. The Tung Family Fast Form includes moves that are not part of the Yang Long Form repertoire. It has jumps, leg sweeps, etc. It certainly includes overt expressions of jin. It will certainly provide you with an appreciation of another perspective of Taiji. However, the Tung Family Fast Form is always only taught to the more advanced Taiji student, ensuring that they have a thorough understanding and are proficient enough in the Long Form, that there is no confusion as to where practice of the Fast Form fits in the overall repertoire of Taiji forms. It is the same for when you learn the weapons forms or the two-person sparring form, push hands, etc. They all have a place in increasing your understanding of the various aspects of Taiji and to further develop your proficiency and skills, especially the martial.
All the different Taiji Families (Chen, Yang, Wu, Wu(Hao), Sun) have their place. It all depends on what you are seeking to achieve for yourself and your personal preference. However, as my former teacher used to say (and I paraphrase), "The Long Form is your bedrock, so practice it diligently over all others!".
Take care,
Frank

[global village idiot]

Thanks, Frank!

First of all, safe travels and best wishes that your trip is productive and pleasant.

I believe we are very much on the same page vis-a-vis the various other things to learn once the foundation of the Long Form is correctly laid.

Yesterday was our first "schoolhouse" class and all the "cadre" (for tai chi & karate, both of which are taught at the school) were sitting around after class talking about a variety of subjects. I tried to keep my mouth shut for the most part except for one part which was "how best to teach the Long Form.

One of the cadre members is of the opinion that all the aspects of a given posture (physical appearance, internal aspect, intent, applications, etc.) should be thoroughly understood before the next one is learned. The other one shares the opinion of our former instructor which was "Just get 'em through - you can work on 'polishing the pearl' later." They naturally started going 'round and 'round.

They both "came up for air" about the same time, looked at me and said, "Well? What do you think?" I told them I reckoned 90% of everything you need to know about how to do the Long Form is taught in the Ward-off sequence, and this will take a lot of time (relative to the rest of the postures) if correctly taught. But if it is correctly taught, each additional posture, the transitions between each, the intent, applications and so on should only take a few minutes. In the long run, taking the time up-front to build a solid foundation with the Ward-off sequence makes teaching the rest of the Long Form not only easier but more effective.

I must have said something right because they seemed to consider the matter settled.

Back to the Fast Form, I'm grateful for your offer of assistance, but take your time. I'm in no hurry to gain proficiency in it, particularly if it is of only marginal use in teaching the Long Form.

gvi

[fchai]

Hi GVI,

A little belated but there might be something else you might like to consider with the Tung Family Fast Form. I have no one I can discuss with to verify my thinking, as the master who taught me passed away a very long time ago and I currently do not know anyone who practices the Tung Family Fast Form where I am, in Melbourne, Australia, They are probably hidden somewhere but their whereabouts are unknown to me.

My thinking is that the Tung Family Fast Form has elements of Small and Medium Frame. Why do I think this? It is because Tung Ying Jie was not only taught by Yang Chengfu, but he also likely had instruction from others, possibly Yang Ban Hou and/or Yang Jian Hou. Also, many of the movements are close in actions rather than the typically expansive and hence large frame long form.

So in a nutshell, learning the Tung Family Fast Form may well give you an appreciation of perhaps what the small and medium frame forms may have been like.

Take care,
Frank

[global village idiot]

Thanks, Frank!

I had honestly given the fast form very little thought since we last spoke on it, but your insight leads me to wonder if it might be seen as a sort of "bridge" between many different tai chi styles.

A challenging mental puzzle!
gvi

[fchai]

Greetings,

Interestingly, I just read an article about some of the various Yang Taiji Forms and their various offshoots, and there was a view stated that the Tung Family Fast Form consisted of elements of Yang Long Boxing and from forms taught by Wu Yu Hsiang. Again, this is interesting, but I have no way of confirming veracity one way or another. Further confusion to add to the mix. Lol.

Take care,
Frank