Which postures/transitions demonstrate Lie?

[global village idiot]

Rending/splitting seems straightforward, and I'm picturing it in postures like Fly Diagonal or Wild Horse Parts Mane. I'm not, however, willing to bet pushups on it.

Grateful for your thoughts!

gvi

[fchai]

Greetings Gvi,

If I recall correctly, one of the interpretations for 'lieh' is the application of torque in the movement. Most movements in taiji consists of a combination of different 'energies', ie. peng, lu, ji, an, kao, zhou, cai and lieh. White crane spreads wings applies 'lieh' energy, but also with 'cai' energy. With the basic single hand push hands for instance, when your partner pushes forward, you yield, sink and then apply 'lieh', before you then push forward. 'Lieh' is one of the secondary energies and is typically used in support of one of the primary energies (peng, lu, ji, an). Your choice of diagonal flying is also an instance where it could be said torque is applied and the waist is the axis. Wild horse parts mane is interesting as it could also include 'kao' energy.

It is interesting that there does not seem to be a lot written on the 'energies' associated with the execution of each posture in the long form. Certainly, I have not seen any myself, though perhaps it is because I have not come across such to date. Perhaps also, because the execution of the postures is dependent on the practitioner's intent, the energies used to realise the intent would determine what energies are applied.

As an example of this, if you consider the push in grasping bird's tail. Before you push, applying 'an' energy, when you sit back and draw your hands back, you could either be applying 'cai' (plucking) or 'lieh' (torque) energy. Either is possible.

Take care,
Frank

[Audi]

Greetings all,

I hope everyone is healthy, staying safe, and building up your lung capacity and circulatory system with your Tai Chi at this perilous time.

I have never received precise definition of the eight energies; however, I have received enough instructions to have a good feel for a range of techniques that I can classify with confidence. The impression I have is that the energies are helpful as a gateway to learning energy usage, but not so helpful as an ultimate template for explaining every application.

I also have the strong impression that any posture can contain multiple expressions of energy in many variations, so that being too definitive about what energies are in what posture might be misleading. What I can say is that the postures tend to showcase certain combinations of energy as they are normally executed, often with different energy in each hand/arm.

I personally would not describe my particular performance of White Crane Spread Wings as showcasing Lie, but rather Kao, followed by a simultaneous An in the left hand and Peng in the right, but I could be wrong.

I would also say that what is normally shown in Lifting Hands, Play the Pipa, and Diagonal Flying are all Lie. Because there is less of a body rotation in Parting Wild Horses Mane, I think that shows more Peng energy. In a sparring situation, I might do either from either set up.

It is interesting that there does not seem to be a lot written on the 'energies' associated with the execution of each posture in the long form. Certainly, I have not seen any myself, though perhaps it is because I have not come across such to date. Perhaps also, because the execution of the postures is dependent on the practitioner's intent, the energies used to realise the intent would determine what energies are applied.

I think this is correct. As my understanding has grown,I see more in each posture and see more value in understanding its overall possibilities and less value in giving a limited classification to the particular movements.

When discussing applications, Master Yang sometimes uses one or more names from the Eight Energies, but also uses names from the Form postures. In either case, they more describe a family of movements than something externally precise. For instance, both Ward Off Right and Lifting Hands might be characterized as applying arm bars, but they are applied quite differently and could easily have quite different results.

I think the Association’s approach tends to start with examples of the eight energies and then add variations. Then you can do one-posture work to learn another range of possibilities. At this point, you should be designing your responses on the fly with a combination of energies and techniques.

As an example, during the level-five ranking, I would automatically accept any of about twenty variations of movements to cover the eight applications, applied appropriately; however, I don’t have ready names for many of the counters you would be expected to know at level 6. Much of this is shown on Master Yangs Push Hands Video,Vol 2.

When I teach counters, I tend to talk more about full and empty than specific energies. For instances, there are a family or counters to the main push hands application of Ward Off/Parting Wild Horses Mane, but one involves pushing your opponent’s back with your off hand, another involves grabbing their elbow with your off hand, another involves circling the shoulder that is being attacked, and yet another involves little initial movement at all, but precisely timing your opponent’s change from full to empty and changing the pressure at the right moment. In my mind, these are all variations on the same counter, and exploit almost the same principles of full and empty, but are all quite different externally.

I hope this helps. Take care,
Audi

[Bob Ashmore]

My answer: all of them.
You have to express each and every energy in each and every posture, and understand how each fits in with all the rest, or you are missing a vital piece of the art.

[Audi]

Hi Bob,

Could you give an example of how your paradigm helps you in your practice?

Audi

[Bob Ashmore]

By letting me move past the idea of trying to figure out, and finally even caring about, what the name is of an energy I might be using or where it is at any one time.
If you're trying to chase down which energy, or energies, you're using you're chasing ghosts.
What do you care what you call what you just did? As long as it worked, that's all that matters.

[global village idiot]

Part of the reason I ask is because I know the question is going to come up as my students improve.

It's one thing to say "Each posture contains the potential for each type of energy" and after long enough we will realize that this is so. But they have to have some idea what to look for. My more advanced students are entering the phase where they're beginning to understand and explore the energies inherent in the postures/transitions and this is going to eventually lead to questions such as "What does Peng look like?" or "Can you give me an example of Cai" and so on.

I ought to be able to answer "Each posture can have many such energies, but here's one example of what each of them looks like."

Peng and An are relatively easy to demonstrate. Same with Zhou and Kao - I can easily demonstrate where Zhou is "embedded" in "White Crane Spreads its Wings" and where to find Kao in "Cloud Hands." Likewise Cai in "Needle to Sea Bottom," also in "Fair Lady Works at Shuttles" and elsewhere. From these, I can show how they're each in other postures/transitions; and once they have an idea what to look for, the student can discover them on his or her own.

Lie I'm not so sure of.

gvi

[DPasek]

If you are just looking for one posture to use to illustrate lei, then you can use the following:
手挥琵琶 shou3 hui1 pi2 pa – Hand Strums the Lute

The hand farther from you would be on the outside of an opponent's elbow while your closer hand would be on the inside of the same arm's wrist - both have an inward energy which would pressure the opponent's arm to bend/rend/dislocate at the elbow by forcing it in the wrong (hyper-extended) direction.

Of course, there are many places where this energy can be applied. Any place where a joint lock is applied would work to illustrate this energy.

[BBTrip]

Part of the reason I ask is because I know the question is going to come up as my students improve...

I ought to be able to answer "Each posture can have many such energies, but here's one example of what each of them looks like."

Peng and An are relatively easy to demonstrate....

Lie I'm not so sure of.

Greetings GVI,

I'm not sure this will help you...
But these are some of the answers I give when the Lie question comes up.

Sometimes I compare Lie to something they (should) know well, like Rollback.

Then from there, I illustrate & demonstrate the simple differences that separate Rollback from Lie/Split.

Rollback usually attacks the arm.



Lie usually attacks the upper body and/or the neck area.
And, at the same time Lie should also break the opponent's stance.


Rollback - attacks elbow with front of Palm & inside edge of the ulna wrist area.
Lie - attacks with the back of the hand & back of the forearm.

Rollback - If it doesn’t break the arm...
Rollback will, depending on what leg the opponent has forward, Rollback will cause the opponent to tilt slightly forward.
Or, if his other leg is forward -- it will tilt him sideways for causing him to pause for a brief sec.

If Rollback causes the opponent to fall, he would likely fall forwards, landing on his chest stomach area.
Lie – if the opponent fell it would be on his backside maybe his head.

Some places to naturally find Lie:

Slanting Flying,
Wild Horses Mane,
Rear Hand Transition of the Single Whip
Left Hand Transition in Strike Parry Punch
High Pat on Horse


Once they learn Lie, I teach them how to practice it in combination with Pulldown (Cai)
Practice that Lie - Cai combination very often (preferably everyday)
on both the left and right side
with the expectation that when the opportunity arises they could easily do it in their sleep.

☮☮☮

[Bob Ashmore]

The lists of energies and where you will find each of them in the named forms when practicing against the air are legion, and I can clearly see why they'd be necessary for learning purposes since I've used them many times myself to do so and then again when I was teaching them to others.
I am not knocking the concept I have simply moved past it, and I sometimes forget that most haven't done so yet.
In future I will try to remember when making posts that where I am in my personal practice is going to be a bit more esoteric then where most folks are going to be in theirs.

For Lie, and as previously stated, have your beginner students look first at Slant Flying.
I most often used that posture to show the named form that most clearly demonstrates Lie energy as its movements are so large that it's nearly impossible to miss the energy in the form.
Once that concept is found then I moved my intermediate students on to Part Wild Horses Mane, as it is closer to a medium frame movement but still clearly demonstrates Lie. It's a bit more difficult to do but still if a student has grasped Slant Flying then PWHM is fairly easy to follow as well.
Empty handed stances, such as Hands Strum the Lute or Raise Hands, are best used later on when showing advanced students how to shrink an energy down and use it in a smaller frame while using smaller circles.
Empty stance is the large frame solution to small frame problems so I always found it best to put off teaching them more in depth (such as at the energy level) until the large and medium frame representations of the energies have been learned.

[Mu_Hou]

Lie is splitting energy: things going in opposite directions. Good examples are Single Whip and Fan Through the Back.

[fchai]

Greetings,

The question of what energies are used for executing the various postures is an interesting one. It seems to me that unless one has clarity of what the energy characteristics are, and what the intent is that is directing the execution of the posture, we could be discussing about different things. So unless we share an agreed understanding of the intent directing the posture and which of the various energies are applied, based on a shared understanding of their fundamental characteristics are, we are unlikely to reach agreement on the energies that are in use in the execution of the various postures. Also, every posture would likely have more than one type of energy in use.

Have to go now. Will perhaps return to discuss this further.

Take care,
Frank

[fchai]

Greetings,

By the way, the diagrams posted by BBTrip in October 2020 are diagrams from the Two Person Set by Chen Yan Lin. The diagram showing the "Rending" or application of "Lieh" is one that would apply as the arm action is the result of the torque generated energy by the pelvis/waist/hips. Whenever torque energy is applied, I consider it the application of "lieh" energy. Note however that the other arm involved in the action would be applying a different energy. It could be "Cai" energy if it is plucking or pulling the arm of the opponent as part of the action. It could also be "Pemg" energy if it is warding the arm of the opponent. So in just this example, more than one type of energy characteristic is in play. So, as previously mentioned, your intent will determine what energies are being used. So, even though in all the postures there may be a dominant energy in play, other energies are also part of the posture application.
To perhaps gain a sense of, or insight into, the characteristics of the energies involved, when you practice your form, focus on how your mind/intent moves the energy, that moves your physical body.

Take care,
Frank