shoulder strike-- what has happened to it?
shoulder strike-- what has happened to it?
I just started studying the Ynag Style long form-- numbered as 108, 103 and even 88. I noticed that in many recent versions, instructions and videos, the "shoulder strike" posture is lost. The "white crane spreads wings" immediately follows the "raise hands" posture... or did I miss something?
roh,
Shoulder strike is present in many of the transition movements in Yang style so it will depend on your teacher's exposure to those 'subtle' points with any modern frame of Yang style.
As an example, after qi shi (raise hands) and into right wards off/diagonal flying (usage and application) preceding said posture is shoulder strike followed by a potential left wards off (maybe potential diagonal flying/modified brush knee or modified snake creeps down but actually grasps birds tail!
Shoulder strike is present in many of the transition movements in Yang style so it will depend on your teacher's exposure to those 'subtle' points with any modern frame of Yang style.
As an example, after qi shi (raise hands) and into right wards off/diagonal flying (usage and application) preceding said posture is shoulder strike followed by a potential left wards off (maybe potential diagonal flying/modified brush knee or modified snake creeps down but actually grasps birds tail!
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Bob Ashmore
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Louis Swaim
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Simon Batten
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by roh mih:
I just started studying the Ynag Style long form-- numbered as 108, 103 and even 88. I noticed that in many recent versions, instructions and videos, the "shoulder strike" posture is lost. The "white crane spreads wings" immediately follows the "raise hands" posture... or did I miss something?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
RH: I have studied the Yang Cheng Fu Yang style long form with a Chinese Master in London, and a comparison of his form with the 800 or so photos of Yang Zhen Duo's book 'Yang Style Taijiquan' reveals hardly any differences. Particularly, the transition you are mentioning is almost identical. Certainly, in the form as I have learned it, after 'Raise Hands' (Ti Shou Shang Shih), one then shifts the weight completely onto the left foot and shifts the hands into the 'ball hold' position while the tip of the right foot comes simultaneously to rest just in front of the left foot. Assuming one is now facing North, one then steps forward towards the North West with the right leg, with the hands still in the 'ball hold' position. This is the transition, and this is what comprises the shoulder strike: when is stepping forward towards the opponent with the hands in the 'ball hold' position to strike against his chest with your shoulder. Then immediately, one turns with the waist towards the West, while simultaneously, the knee of the left leg leg is raised to about waist height and then is set down gently with just the big toe of the left foot touching the ground. At the same time, the left hand sweeps away down to the level of the right hip until it is a hand's width away from the hip, and the right hand sweeps upwards at a 45 degree angle before bending with the arm almost extended but slightly curved with the right palm bent to the left. This is the sequence you have referred to called 'White Crane Spreads Its Wings' (Pai Hao Liang Shih). The immortal Chang Sang Feng is of course credited with having invented it (and Tai Chi) after witnessing repeated conflicts between a snake and a white crane, so this could be said to be a very important movement for Tai Chi: it has a great deal of historical significance, as well as numerous applications, particularly with the transitional shoulder strike which I have tried to describe. Kind regards, Simon.
I just started studying the Ynag Style long form-- numbered as 108, 103 and even 88. I noticed that in many recent versions, instructions and videos, the "shoulder strike" posture is lost. The "white crane spreads wings" immediately follows the "raise hands" posture... or did I miss something?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
RH: I have studied the Yang Cheng Fu Yang style long form with a Chinese Master in London, and a comparison of his form with the 800 or so photos of Yang Zhen Duo's book 'Yang Style Taijiquan' reveals hardly any differences. Particularly, the transition you are mentioning is almost identical. Certainly, in the form as I have learned it, after 'Raise Hands' (Ti Shou Shang Shih), one then shifts the weight completely onto the left foot and shifts the hands into the 'ball hold' position while the tip of the right foot comes simultaneously to rest just in front of the left foot. Assuming one is now facing North, one then steps forward towards the North West with the right leg, with the hands still in the 'ball hold' position. This is the transition, and this is what comprises the shoulder strike: when is stepping forward towards the opponent with the hands in the 'ball hold' position to strike against his chest with your shoulder. Then immediately, one turns with the waist towards the West, while simultaneously, the knee of the left leg leg is raised to about waist height and then is set down gently with just the big toe of the left foot touching the ground. At the same time, the left hand sweeps away down to the level of the right hip until it is a hand's width away from the hip, and the right hand sweeps upwards at a 45 degree angle before bending with the arm almost extended but slightly curved with the right palm bent to the left. This is the sequence you have referred to called 'White Crane Spreads Its Wings' (Pai Hao Liang Shih). The immortal Chang Sang Feng is of course credited with having invented it (and Tai Chi) after witnessing repeated conflicts between a snake and a white crane, so this could be said to be a very important movement for Tai Chi: it has a great deal of historical significance, as well as numerous applications, particularly with the transitional shoulder strike which I have tried to describe. Kind regards, Simon.
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Bob Ashmore
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T,
Each Master emphasyses different aspects of the energies in their form.
As long as the energy is present, that's all that really matters.
It's the potential for a shoulder stroke that matters, not the actual performance.
Many things are "hidden" in plain sight in Tai Chi Chuan forms. Sometimes the fun is finding them.....
Each Master emphasyses different aspects of the energies in their form.
As long as the energy is present, that's all that really matters.
It's the potential for a shoulder stroke that matters, not the actual performance.
Many things are "hidden" in plain sight in Tai Chi Chuan forms. Sometimes the fun is finding them.....
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bob Ashmore:
<B>T,
Each Master emphasyses different aspects of the energies in their form.
As long as the energy is present, that's all that really matters.
It's the potential for a shoulder stroke that matters, not the actual performance.
Many things are "hidden" in plain sight in Tai Chi Chuan forms. Sometimes the fun is finding them.....</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is true and I did see it in the video of Fu, I was just making an observation (although I now see poorly worded [note to self, never post in a hurry]) that as opposed to what I saw in the video of Fu that it is more deliberate in the style as it comes from Tung. Although I would not call it a posture and it is most certainly Kao as previously mentioned.
<B>T,
Each Master emphasyses different aspects of the energies in their form.
As long as the energy is present, that's all that really matters.
It's the potential for a shoulder stroke that matters, not the actual performance.
Many things are "hidden" in plain sight in Tai Chi Chuan forms. Sometimes the fun is finding them.....</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is true and I did see it in the video of Fu, I was just making an observation (although I now see poorly worded [note to self, never post in a hurry]) that as opposed to what I saw in the video of Fu that it is more deliberate in the style as it comes from Tung. Although I would not call it a posture and it is most certainly Kao as previously mentioned.
Thanks for all your reply.
Bob and, where do I see the video clip of Fu Zhongwen and Tung Ying Chieh?
Simon, thanks for the detailed description of the posture and the brief explanation on its historical significance. It's similar to the one I've read from a book on the Cheng Man Ching form, which explicitly maintains the shoulder strike posture in its list of forms. The video of the form as seen in http://www.wuwei.org/Taiji/longform.html also comes close to it.
And my conclusion is, whether potential or actual, there is a "shoulder strike" posture always in the long form.
Bob and, where do I see the video clip of Fu Zhongwen and Tung Ying Chieh?
Simon, thanks for the detailed description of the posture and the brief explanation on its historical significance. It's similar to the one I've read from a book on the Cheng Man Ching form, which explicitly maintains the shoulder strike posture in its list of forms. The video of the form as seen in http://www.wuwei.org/Taiji/longform.html also comes close to it.
And my conclusion is, whether potential or actual, there is a "shoulder strike" posture always in the long form.
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Simon Batten
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by roh mih:
<B>Thanks for all your reply.
Bob and, where do I see the video clip of Fu Zhongwen and Tung Ying Chieh?
Simon, thanks for the detailed description of the posture and the brief explanation on its historical significance. It's similar to the one I've read from a book on the Cheng Man Ching form, which explicitly maintains the shoulder strike posture in its list of forms. The video of the form as seen in http://www.wuwei.org/Taiji/longform.html also comes close to it.
And my conclusion is, whether potential or actual, there is a "shoulder strike" posture always in the long form.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
RM: on the Cheng Man Ching form, I started off with that form when I first began Tai Chi but quickly abandoned it when I discovered the Yang Cheng Fu long form. The Cheng Man Ching postures are very much more closed up than in the long form, although I agree that the CMC form does make the shoulder strike explicit, although in the CMC form, the position of the hands is not the 'ball hold' at that point, but the right hand is down in front of the waist. As for the CMC final posture in White Crane, the right wrist isn't bent and the hand is held just above the forehead rather than high above it. A few months ago, I joined another Tai Chi site and made what I thought were some rational observations about the CMC form vis a vis the original Yang Cheng Fu long form without realising that that site was really a forum for CMC enthusiasts! I received some really seriously abusive replies and left in disgust. Kind regards, Simon.
<B>Thanks for all your reply.
Bob and, where do I see the video clip of Fu Zhongwen and Tung Ying Chieh?
Simon, thanks for the detailed description of the posture and the brief explanation on its historical significance. It's similar to the one I've read from a book on the Cheng Man Ching form, which explicitly maintains the shoulder strike posture in its list of forms. The video of the form as seen in http://www.wuwei.org/Taiji/longform.html also comes close to it.
And my conclusion is, whether potential or actual, there is a "shoulder strike" posture always in the long form.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
RM: on the Cheng Man Ching form, I started off with that form when I first began Tai Chi but quickly abandoned it when I discovered the Yang Cheng Fu long form. The Cheng Man Ching postures are very much more closed up than in the long form, although I agree that the CMC form does make the shoulder strike explicit, although in the CMC form, the position of the hands is not the 'ball hold' at that point, but the right hand is down in front of the waist. As for the CMC final posture in White Crane, the right wrist isn't bent and the hand is held just above the forehead rather than high above it. A few months ago, I joined another Tai Chi site and made what I thought were some rational observations about the CMC form vis a vis the original Yang Cheng Fu long form without realising that that site was really a forum for CMC enthusiasts! I received some really seriously abusive replies and left in disgust. Kind regards, Simon.
Tung Ying Chieh videos are older and not of the complete form I am unable to find one of the beginning of the form, but I will continue looking sorry
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8ydIbWD_sQ
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... hieh&hl=en
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8ydIbWD_sQ
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... hieh&hl=en
Tung/Dong's movements (as in repulse monkey) are smaller as the rear arm does not go as far back as present Yang exponents! Tung/Dong also appears to go under an attack (guessing!) as evidenced by the lowered head looking at ground in making transition movements.
Same Yang form in the Chengfu pattern!
Same Yang form in the Chengfu pattern!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by roh mih:
I just started studying the Ynag Style long form-- numbered as 108, 103 and even 88. I noticed that in many recent versions, instructions and videos, the "shoulder strike" posture is lost. The "white crane spreads wings" immediately follows the "raise hands" posture... or did I miss something?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Base on the Yang style Taichi 108 form that I have learned, there are 3 ocassions that shoulder strike is practiced. First one came after the raise hand form after Dan Bien. The shoulder strike is done before the White Crane Display it wings. The other 2 are repetative after the slunting stroke but again before White Crane Display it wings.
I just started studying the Ynag Style long form-- numbered as 108, 103 and even 88. I noticed that in many recent versions, instructions and videos, the "shoulder strike" posture is lost. The "white crane spreads wings" immediately follows the "raise hands" posture... or did I miss something?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Base on the Yang style Taichi 108 form that I have learned, there are 3 ocassions that shoulder strike is practiced. First one came after the raise hand form after Dan Bien. The shoulder strike is done before the White Crane Display it wings. The other 2 are repetative after the slunting stroke but again before White Crane Display it wings.
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Bob Ashmore
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Denzuko,
Look a little closer, there are many more instances of "kao" on the long form.
Snake Creeps Down, or Low Form, comes to mind, for one more example.
Audi said it best, as long as the potential is there to perorm an energy that's all that matters. You don't have to express it every single time.
Look a little closer, there are many more instances of "kao" on the long form.
Snake Creeps Down, or Low Form, comes to mind, for one more example.
Audi said it best, as long as the potential is there to perorm an energy that's all that matters. You don't have to express it every single time.