Comments invited on my Form postures.
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Simon Batten
- Posts: 153
- Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:01 am
- Location: Brighton, East Sussex, England
Rich: I've just had a double check myself of the photo of me in Hsia Fei Shih and you're right - my right arm really does look too far out to the side and that certainly isn't how I've been taught it. Perhaps the photo was taken fractionally after I thought it had been so I was actually fractionally coming out of the posture when it was snapped. On the other hand, if I really am doing this all the time, then that needs to be corrected and I'm glad you drew my attention to it and will make a point of being very careful in that posture during my form practice. Kind regards, Simon.
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Kalamondin
- Posts: 309
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 7:01 am
Hello Simon,
In general your postures look very good, it looks like you are working hard and your form is coming along nicely.
The one thing I see that could help improve your form is more attention to number 2 of the Yang Family Ten Essentials:
From the webpage: http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/about/study/#theory
#2 Hold in the chest and pull up the back
The phrase 'hold in the chest' means the chest is slightly reserved inward, which causes the chi to sink to the cinnabar field (dan1 tian2). The chest must not be puffed out. If you do so then the chi is blocked in the chest region, the upper body becomes heavy and lower body light, and it will become easy for the heels to float upward. 'Pulling up the back' makes the chi stick to the back. If you are able to hold in the chest then you will naturally be able to pull up the back. If you can pull up the back, then you will be able to emit a strength from the spine which others cannot oppose.
At present, your chest is often arched open, with your shoulder blades closer together than is perhaps comfortable, as in : http://aolpictures.aol.co.uk/galleries/ ... xQp5Fd3Ig=
and
http://aolpictures.aol.co.uk/galleries/ ... xQp5Fd3Ig=
In general, it's a bit like the "Attention!" posture of the military. The problem with this posture, to reiterate the above, is that it constricts the breathing, preventing the chi from sinking to the dan tien, and making it difficult to have a solid root in one's postures. The martial disadvantage to this kind of shoulders-back posture is that it makes one more top-heavy and easier to tip over in push hands.
But how to correct it? I'm a big fan of finding the feeling of how it feels most comfortable inside. This allows the content of what's inside (the internal) to inform the exterior form, thus aiding in unifying internal with external. So I'm going to suggest some postural exercises to find out the differences between chest postures and what might feel most comfortable (which often correlates with the most standard posture).
First, stand at attention with your shoulders back, chest open, trying to touch your shoulder blades together in back. Breathe. Notice where your breath goes, where it gets constricted, whether you can easily bring it down to your dan tien. Walk around. Root. Ask a friend to try and push you over while you stand and root with your shoulders back. In this posture, it is generally impossible to conserve or hold in the chest.
To conserve/hold in the chest, place one hand on your sternum and create the feeling of a very very slight concavity around it by relaxing the rhomboid muscles, bringing the shoulders slightly forward and very slightly down. Note: it's not a visible concavity, it just feels that way compared to the previous posture. Try breathing again, walking, rooting, etc. This posture allows for more space in the chest. The lungs are less constricted, the rib cage has more room to expand, which allows the diaphragm to sink. The chi can sink also. It allows one to transmit force more easily from the legs to the arms without constriction through the chest. See examples of your teacher, Master Lu Jun Hai's posture here:
http://zhenwei.org/index.php?option=com ... &Itemid=28
and
http://zhenwei.org/index.php?option=com ... &Itemid=28
and
http://zhenwei.org/index.php?option=com ... &Itemid=28
See how his shoulders are very slightly forward even in the wide open postures? And even though his posture is upright, it looks like he is relaxed and can breath easily?
Now let's try the opposite posture, which is too slumped. This is not your issue, Simon, but others reading this may have this postural error in the other direction, so I am including it to list the spectrum of chest postures and internal sensations. Roll or slump your shoulders forward. Collapse your chest and slump, dropping your head forward. Again, try to breathe, seeing where the breath constricts, how easy or difficult it is to bring the breath to the dan tien, whether deep breathing is possible.
This error concerns not plucking up the back. Even if the head top is suspended, it is still possible to collapse the spine through the chest.
In this case, to correct it, the shoulders must come up and back slightly, opening the chest more from being too concave. The spine also needs to elongate upwards to create more space between each vertebra, as though the spine were "plucked upwards" from the head top and each vertebra hanging from it. This takes pressure off the diaphragm and again allows more space to breathe.
Best wishes for your continued practice.
Regards,
Serena
In general your postures look very good, it looks like you are working hard and your form is coming along nicely.
The one thing I see that could help improve your form is more attention to number 2 of the Yang Family Ten Essentials:
From the webpage: http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/about/study/#theory
#2 Hold in the chest and pull up the back
The phrase 'hold in the chest' means the chest is slightly reserved inward, which causes the chi to sink to the cinnabar field (dan1 tian2). The chest must not be puffed out. If you do so then the chi is blocked in the chest region, the upper body becomes heavy and lower body light, and it will become easy for the heels to float upward. 'Pulling up the back' makes the chi stick to the back. If you are able to hold in the chest then you will naturally be able to pull up the back. If you can pull up the back, then you will be able to emit a strength from the spine which others cannot oppose.
At present, your chest is often arched open, with your shoulder blades closer together than is perhaps comfortable, as in : http://aolpictures.aol.co.uk/galleries/ ... xQp5Fd3Ig=
and
http://aolpictures.aol.co.uk/galleries/ ... xQp5Fd3Ig=
In general, it's a bit like the "Attention!" posture of the military. The problem with this posture, to reiterate the above, is that it constricts the breathing, preventing the chi from sinking to the dan tien, and making it difficult to have a solid root in one's postures. The martial disadvantage to this kind of shoulders-back posture is that it makes one more top-heavy and easier to tip over in push hands.
But how to correct it? I'm a big fan of finding the feeling of how it feels most comfortable inside. This allows the content of what's inside (the internal) to inform the exterior form, thus aiding in unifying internal with external. So I'm going to suggest some postural exercises to find out the differences between chest postures and what might feel most comfortable (which often correlates with the most standard posture).
First, stand at attention with your shoulders back, chest open, trying to touch your shoulder blades together in back. Breathe. Notice where your breath goes, where it gets constricted, whether you can easily bring it down to your dan tien. Walk around. Root. Ask a friend to try and push you over while you stand and root with your shoulders back. In this posture, it is generally impossible to conserve or hold in the chest.
To conserve/hold in the chest, place one hand on your sternum and create the feeling of a very very slight concavity around it by relaxing the rhomboid muscles, bringing the shoulders slightly forward and very slightly down. Note: it's not a visible concavity, it just feels that way compared to the previous posture. Try breathing again, walking, rooting, etc. This posture allows for more space in the chest. The lungs are less constricted, the rib cage has more room to expand, which allows the diaphragm to sink. The chi can sink also. It allows one to transmit force more easily from the legs to the arms without constriction through the chest. See examples of your teacher, Master Lu Jun Hai's posture here:
http://zhenwei.org/index.php?option=com ... &Itemid=28
and
http://zhenwei.org/index.php?option=com ... &Itemid=28
and
http://zhenwei.org/index.php?option=com ... &Itemid=28
See how his shoulders are very slightly forward even in the wide open postures? And even though his posture is upright, it looks like he is relaxed and can breath easily?
Now let's try the opposite posture, which is too slumped. This is not your issue, Simon, but others reading this may have this postural error in the other direction, so I am including it to list the spectrum of chest postures and internal sensations. Roll or slump your shoulders forward. Collapse your chest and slump, dropping your head forward. Again, try to breathe, seeing where the breath constricts, how easy or difficult it is to bring the breath to the dan tien, whether deep breathing is possible.
This error concerns not plucking up the back. Even if the head top is suspended, it is still possible to collapse the spine through the chest.
In this case, to correct it, the shoulders must come up and back slightly, opening the chest more from being too concave. The spine also needs to elongate upwards to create more space between each vertebra, as though the spine were "plucked upwards" from the head top and each vertebra hanging from it. This takes pressure off the diaphragm and again allows more space to breathe.
Best wishes for your continued practice.
Regards,
Serena
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Simon Batten
- Posts: 153
- Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:01 am
- Location: Brighton, East Sussex, England
Serena: thanks a lot for these observations and also for making them graphic by reference to the photos of Master Lu. As I explained, I don't live in London anymore and at present it is not easy for me to commute up there from here for lessons and the fare involved is actually three times the price of a class. I am hoping to remedy that soon, however. I'm therefore particularly grateful for your drawing attention to these examples from Master Lu's postures, as I am unable to see them myself on a weekly basis at the moment. I will take into account what you have said regarding the second of Yang Cheng Fu's points and will practise your suggested exercises, keeping the photos of Master Lu in mind as a model for mental imageing. I'm glad I made this posting. I have had a lot of very useful feedback - so the exercise has been worth it! Kind regards, Simon.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Simon Batten:
...On the question of relaxation, of course I do bear in mind Yang Cheng Fu's emphasis on that point when I am practising. But...</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi Simon,
I appreciate the difficulties of posing for photos, especially in public places - enough to unrelax anybody! What I meant was to try not to try so hard to have quite such a big extended frame (hope this makes sense!!). This, I think, will have the effect of facilitating Serena's advice (which is very good).
Another couple of quick posture pick ups: Rear hand in repulse monkey is too far back (chest too open), and hit tiger - try rounding things out a bit more and get your bottom arm further away from your body.
Lastly, my respects to your bravery in putting your form up for critique in this way. I'm sure you'll make the most of the excercise. It will be interesting to see how you get on if you post similar pictures in the future.
Regards,
Rich
...On the question of relaxation, of course I do bear in mind Yang Cheng Fu's emphasis on that point when I am practising. But...</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi Simon,
I appreciate the difficulties of posing for photos, especially in public places - enough to unrelax anybody! What I meant was to try not to try so hard to have quite such a big extended frame (hope this makes sense!!). This, I think, will have the effect of facilitating Serena's advice (which is very good).
Another couple of quick posture pick ups: Rear hand in repulse monkey is too far back (chest too open), and hit tiger - try rounding things out a bit more and get your bottom arm further away from your body.
Lastly, my respects to your bravery in putting your form up for critique in this way. I'm sure you'll make the most of the excercise. It will be interesting to see how you get on if you post similar pictures in the future.
Regards,
Rich
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Simon Batten
- Posts: 153
- Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:01 am
- Location: Brighton, East Sussex, England
I am copying below private correspondence on this topic between Audi and myself with his permission and I hope that I hope that everyone reading this will find the points discussed relevant and useful.
Hi Simon,
Below is the email I sent you before. It has more comments than what I was prepared to post without getting a better feel for what you wanted. Let me know if you would prefer to switch this exchange to the board and get feedback from other people. Feel free to transfer the pertinent parts to the board if you prefer.
I would also like to add that some Tai Chi players seem to like detailed critiques and other do not. I am one that does, but rarely find situations where people are willing to give it to me straight up and at length. I have framed my comments below as if I were noting issues in pictures of myself.
By the way, as I re-read my earlier email, I notice that my reference to a "bannister" may be even less clear than I thought. The perspective I describe is of a person standing backward on some stairs with the left hand sliding down a bannister on the left.
Take care,
Audi
Hi Simon,
I saw your recent post on the Yang Family board about photos of your postures. You're form looks great, but you are certainly a brave soul.
. I can barely stand to look at my own pictures, let alone invite others to do so. Since you are bravely asking for comments, I will try to follow Bob's lead and honour your request.
I feel awkward posting something on the board that might seem like criticism, so I thought I would send an email instead. I hope that is okay. If you want to quote some of my comments to reply on the board and continue the discussion there, I would not mind. Or, if you would prefer, we can keep this by email. I must confess, however, that I do not check my email regularly.
I once had a fantastic experience when a teacher took my form apart posture by posture. It was quite humbling, but also transformational. At the same time I was told that my postures where quite "standard," I received specific corrections for everying single posture except the Preparation Posture, Golden Rooster (Left), and the Closing posture. Please take my comments in that spirit.
From your earlier posts and the pictures, it seems that your form is very close to what the Association teaches, but there are differences. Since I do not feel qualified to state what is good Tai Chi or bad Tai Chi, I will try only to point out where I have significant doubts or could not defend your particular choices.
Lan Chiao Wei/Grasp Bird's Tail:
Your spirit looks fantastic, but the focus seems to be on your left hand. Is that your intention?
Why do you lift your left hand so high? Where are you focusing your energy, or what is the application you envision? It seems that your choice is driven by your gaze, rather than the other way around.
Your right elbow and palm seem to have a focus of pushing to the rear at the angle of your rear leg. Is this the energy you want to manifest? We show Pluck/Ts'ai with the palm flatter, as if pulling an arm backward.
Peng:
We use different Jin points than you seem to show here, so it is difficult for me to relate fully. It seems that your Jin point is in the right palm. Is your left palm also focused on the same point? It seems lower and a little to the left.
Your spirit again looks great, but do you mean to focus it on your right hand?
Pai Hao Liang Shih/White Crane Cools its Wings.:
This posture seems significantly higher than the preceding ones.
You have your right arm in the shape of a parenthesis, whereas we do it more rounded, more like the bend in a "c". With us, it also ends up directly over the head, rather than to the right.
I am not entirely sure how the left palm should be oriented, but I think I have the Tiger's Mouth face more forward, rather than the middle finger. My way makes my elbow feel more "down." I also seat the wrist slightly more, so that the palm and fingers are at least flat.
It is hard to see the exact relationship between your feet, but we place them so that they would be touching the opposites sides of an imaginary string bisecting your body front to back. Again, it is hard to tell, but your foot placement seems wider and seems to pull your left hip slightly lower than your right.
Tanbien/Single Whip:
Your spirit again looks fantastic.
Your left knee looks like it is just slightly too bent, but with your evident leg strength you might be able to get away with this. I would think though, that your Bow Stances should have a more consistent knee bend.
We perform this posture with the right wrist more or less at throat height. Yours seems quite high.
We would also attempt more bend in the right wrist, with less curve in the fingers. I remember Yang Zhenduo would always say at seminars not to "pinch," but simply to bring the fingers together.
You might want to extend the fingers in your left palm slightly more to show more energy and spirit.
Ti Shou Shang Shih/Raise Hands:
I can't see anything to comment on, except that your spirit seems to show more "up-and-down in the arms, whereas we might show more "side-to-side." To be sure, I would want to see how you "attacked" the final position.
Hsia Fei Shih/Diaonal Flying:
Your body seems quite open to the side. We would have the left shoulder more forward, although not square to the direction of the right arm.
Also, is your right palm pointing in line with your right knee? It is hard to see, but it might be "over-rotated"?
I teach people to hold their left palm as if it had been sliding down a bannister parallel with the right leg and knee, so that the palm ends up tilted upward and more in line (left to right) with the right thigh. Yours seems to be pushing behind, rather than showing "Pluck/Ts'ai" energy. Yang Jun talks about keeping the left hand "in front of the body."
I have run out of time, but hope this is helpful. Let me know if you would like me to continue.
Take care,
Audi
Dear Audi,
Thanks a lot for taking the time and trouble to comment on my form postures in such detail. I'm really grateful for this and I'll respond to your points one by one, so I've copied the relevant part of your email below and will answer each part. Your comments are all very relevant and also I have to say that your reply and those of others have actually given me a lot of encouragement as I was worried that a lot more would actually be 'wrong' as it were ...
In a message dated 03/08/2007 19:03:59 GMT Standard Time, apeal@patmedia.net writes:
Lan Chiao Wei/Grasp Bird's Tail:
Your spirit looks fantastic, but the focus seems to be on your left hand. Is that your intention?
Why do you lift your left hand so high? Where are you focusing your energy, or what is the application you envision? It seems that your choice is driven by your gaze, rather than the other way around.
Your right elbow and palm seem to have a focus of pushing to the rear at the angle of your rear leg. Is this the energy you want to manifest? We show Pluck/Ts'ai with the palm flatter, as if pulling an arm backward.
I hold the left hand so high because, simply, that is what I was taught to do by Grandmaster Lu. In nearly all of his positions, the attacking hand is held either with the finger tips parallel to the eyes or if the hand is for instance in a ward off position as here, then the hand is held such that if it was rotated, then the finger tips would be in line with the eyes. He is very particular about this. The application I am envisaging is is an internal block with the left hand under the opponent's right armpit and then pulling the opponent's right wrist down and back with the intention of putting his arm under pressure at the elbow. As for the position of my right hand, I have in fact modified what I was taught here in order to bring it more in line with pictures in photos of Yang Zhen Duo and Yang Cheng Fu. I think you'd be surprised if you saw Master Lu in the posture, as his right hand is even further back than mine in Lan Chiao Wei - in fact at about 20 degrees below the horizontal!
Peng:
We use different Jin points than you seem to show here, so it is difficult for me to relate fully. It seems that your Jin point is in the right palm. Is your left palm also focused on the same point? It seems lower and a little to the left.
Your spirit again looks great, but do you mean to focus it on your right hand?
Yes, my focus is on the right palm but also on the left as applying pressure to the front of the opponent's upper arm while the right is in ward off behind it. I was taught to have the left hand about three inches from the palm of the right, not behind the wrist as I think the Yangs themselves do, and with the middle finger of the left hand in line with the centre of the right palm. I have found that if I concentrate on the acupressure points in that finger tip and in the centre of the right palm, I feel a very strong connection between the two and also warmth.
Pai Hao Liang Shih/White Crane Cools its Wings.:
This posture seems significantly higher than the preceding ones.
You have your right arm in the shape of a parenthesis, whereas we do it more rounded, more like the bend in a "c". With us, it also ends up directly over the head, rather than to the right.
I am not entirely sure how the left palm should be oriented, but I think I have the Tiger's Mouth face more forward, rather than the middle finger. My way makes my elbow feel more "down." I also seat the wrist slightly more, so that the palm and fingers are at least flat.
It is hard to see the exact relationship between your feet, but we place them so that they would be touching the opposites sides of an imaginary string bisecting your body front to back. Again, it is hard to tell, but your foot placement seems wider and seems to pull your left hip slightly lower than your right.
Again, I am aware of this difference you point out between the way I have been taught this movement and the final posture in Yang family photos and videos that I've watched on YouTube. Master Lu's right hand is higher in this posture than the Yangs'. I once tried to adopt the Yangs' more C shaped posture of the right arm in one of Master Lu's classes and he immediately pounced on this and told me it was wrong and that I should have the right hand higher! Certainly the high right hand reflects the application of blocking the opponent's attacking arm from below and then really throwing it away upwards with an accompanying rising of the body to give added momentum to make his arm really fly away. Also, Master Lu brings the left knee up high, to waist height in Pai Hao Liang Shih as the right arm splits away upwards and the application is to knee the opponent in the bollocks while the right wrist throws his arm away upwards. The foot is then set down as the Yangs do it, with, and he's very specific about this, just the very outside edge of the very tip of the left big toe touching the ground very lightly. The left hand I have been taught my Master Lu should be one fist's width away from the left thigh and parallel with it. The body only then begins to sink when the following Lu Shi Au Bu commences. So again I just have to plead, well - this is the way I was taught it! I take your point about the relative alignment of my feet here and the analogy of the string and I will work on correcting this and I'm grateful to you for pointing it out as I really hadn't thought about that ever.
Tanbien/Single Whip:
Your spirit again looks fantastic.
Your left knee looks like it is just slightly too bent, but with your evident leg strength you might be able to get away with this. I would think though, that your Bow Stances should have a more consistent knee bend.
We perform this posture with the right wrist more or less at throat height. Yours seems quite high.
We would also attempt more bend in the right wrist, with less curve in the fingers. I remember Yang Zhenduo would always say at seminars not to "pinch," but simply to bring the fingers together.
You might want to extend the fingers in your left palm slightly more to show more energy and spirit.
Again, I can only make the same point as justification for this! Namely (you must be sick of hearing the same old record by now) - well, that's how I was taught it. Again, Master Lu is really insistent about the position of the right hand being rather higher than the Yangs do it. He's very fussy about the right hand position and when I asked him for further specification to help me keep it aligned as he would want it, he said the top of the right wrist must be in line with the top of the right ear. That's how specific he was. As for the left hand, according to him, this is held such that you must look through the 'V' of the forefinger and thumb as through the 'V' of a gun sight. Having read Yang Zhen Duo's copiously illustrated book, 'Yang Style Taijiquan' and of course Yang Cheng Fu's book translated by Louis, I can of course easily notice the lower position of the right arm adopted by the Yangs themselves. I've tried introducing this lower position into my form practice but I find it just feels unbalanced for me, however authentic it is. I prefer, having tried both, to do it Master Lu's way as I find the body feels more balanced with the top of the right wrist and the tips, e of the left fingers on the same level. The body then really sinks into the posture and it feels very much as if I am suspended like a marionette puppet. With the right arm more horizontal I feel a strong disconnection of the right side of my body. The higher right hand position probably makes the right wrist appear as if it is not sufficiently bent, but I can assure you that my wrist joint is actually bent as far down as I can in this photo but of course with the right arm higher, the fingers can't point down to the ground as they can with the right wrist held at throat height.
Ti Shou Shang Shih/Raise Hands:
I can't see anything to comment on, except that your spirit seems to show more "up-and-down in the arms, whereas we might show more "side-to-side." To be sure, I would want to see how you "attacked" the final position.
Here, Master Lu emphasises the application as being grasping the punching arm of the attacker and then pushing it away, in contrast to Shou Hui Pipa, which is approached with a more rounded rather than a pushing movement as Shou Hui Pipa is breaking the opponent's arm at the elbow, not pushing him away with his arm.
Hsia Fei Shih/Diaonal Flying:
Your body seems quite open to the side. We would have the left shoulder more forward, although not square to the direction of the right arm.
Also, is your right palm pointing in line with your right knee? It is hard to see, but it might be "over-rotated"?
I teach people to hold their left palm as if it had been sliding down a bannister parallel with the right leg and knee, so that the palm ends up tilted upward and more in line (left to right) with the right thigh. Yours seems to be pushing behind, rather than showing "Pluck/Ts'ai" energy. Yang Jun talks about keeping the left hand "in front of the body."
I think it's just the camera angle as far as the right hand is concerned. In fact, just to be perfectly sure, I've just jumped up from the computer and quickly gone into the posture and my right arm is indeed aligned with the right knee quite unconsciously. So I think in this case it's the camera angle or maybe my friend took the picture later than I thought he had done and was actually coming out of the posture and was caught just doing that, I don't know. As for the left (sorry about playing the same old record yet again), but this is just how I was taught it. Again, Master Lu, as ever, was very precise about the position of the left hand here. It should be parallel with the left thigh, and a fist's width away from it. The application is more or less the same as Yeh Ma Feng Tung, but with a turn of course.
I'm very grateful for your comments about my spirit in the form and I'm amazed that this has come through in the photos. Certainly, the form I have been taught is application based and those slight differences from the way the Yangs do things in detail reflects maybe a slightly different application, or possibly might even derive from a slightly earlier phase in the evolution of the Yang Cheng Fu form, which of course Yang Cheng Fu was constantly tinkering with in details.
Once again, thanks a lot for taking the time and trouble to comment. With your agreement, I'd like to publish your message and this reply on the Forum as I think everyone could benefit from your comments, not just myself, but I won't do this without your final permission, so please just drop me a line to confirm finally whether that's o.k. or not.
Best wishes,
Simon.
Dear Simon,
Here are some comments I had with respect to your replies. I have marked citations from your earlier comments with quotes and italics.
Ward Off Left:
"The application I am envisaging is is an internal block with the left hand under the opponent's right armpit and then pulling the opponent's right wrist down and back with the intention of putting his arm under pressure at the elbow."
I am a little puzzled how you can lock the elbow from this position, but I think I understand your description.
"As for the position of my right hand, I have in fact modified what I was taught here in order to bring it more in line with pictures in photos of Yang Zhen Duo and Yang Cheng Fu."
I am not sure from your words how you want to "standardize" your movements, but let me describe what Yang Zhenduo and Yang Jun do. For both Ward Off Left and Right, they use the middle of the inside of the lead forearm as the Jin point, not the wrist or palm. In Ward Off Left, the left arm is trying to point due west. For me, my left wrist reaches further than the outside of my right foot. The left armpit must, however, remain open, which imparts a slight curve from shoulder to elbow. I describe the feeling almost as if holding the arm stretched out in the way a waiter might drape a cloth across his arm or a matador might hold out a cape. The left palm faces slightly upward in order to expose the Jin point. The right hand is positioned as if pulling a towel across and down from the Jin point in the left arm. Since the body is quite open to the side, the sensation is that you are doing this on the right side of the body.
Ward Off Right:
"I was taught to have the left hand about three inches from the palm of the right, not behind the wrist as I think the Yangs themselves do, and with the middle finger of the left hand in line with the centre of the right palm."
The application that we show in our standard form is to use the middle of the inside of the right forearm even with the midline and under the point of the opponent's elbow. The hollow of the left palm is then pushing down on the opponen'ts wrist.
White Crane:
"I take your point about the relative alignment of my feet here and the analogy of the string and I will work on correcting this and I'm grateful to you for pointing it out as I really hadn't thought about that ever. "
To check your alightment, pivot your back foot so that it is parallel to your front foot and then slide your front back even with your back foot. Both feet should be touching and in line. If you do the same exercise in a bow stance, your feet will end up shoulder width apart.
Single Whip:
" I've tried introducing this lower position into my form practice but I find it just feels unbalanced for me, however authentic it is. I prefer, having tried both, to do it Master Lu's way as I find the body feels more balanced with the top of the right wrist and the tips, e of the left fingers on the same level. The body then really sinks into the posture and it feels very much as if I am suspended like a marionette puppet. With the right arm more horizontal I feel a strong disconnection of the right side of my body."
You give a nice description here. To me, what you describe seems much more oriented to the front than what I have been taught. The feeling for my form, as I understand it, is of one sending energy equally forward and backward. The balance I find is in sinking through the Jin point in my left palm heel and stretching upward into the Jin point in the outside of my right wrist. The left arm curves downward, and the right arm curves upward. The two together form an S curve, the left fingers even with the right wrist, and the left wrist even with the right fingers.
"The higher right hand position probably makes the right wrist appear as if it is not sufficiently bent, but I can assure you that my wrist joint is actually bent as far down as I can in this photo but of course with the right arm higher, the fingers can't point down to the ground as they can with the right wrist held at throat height."
If this is the case, then I think you may be pinching your fingers, rather than gathering them together. Try exposing the pads of your fingers more so that the knuckles are straighter. As for me, the hand position I achieve would allow me to "peck" on a table top with the pads of my fingers with all of the knuckles supporting the energy and without the fingernails interfering.
"With your agreement, I'd like to publish your message and this reply on the Forum as I think everyone could benefit from your comments, not just myself, but I won't do this without your final permission, so please just drop me a line to confirm finally whether that's o.k. or not."
Feel free to copy any of the relevant portions of our exchange to the board. Thanks for your consideration.
Regards,
Audi
Hi Simon,
Below is the email I sent you before. It has more comments than what I was prepared to post without getting a better feel for what you wanted. Let me know if you would prefer to switch this exchange to the board and get feedback from other people. Feel free to transfer the pertinent parts to the board if you prefer.
I would also like to add that some Tai Chi players seem to like detailed critiques and other do not. I am one that does, but rarely find situations where people are willing to give it to me straight up and at length. I have framed my comments below as if I were noting issues in pictures of myself.
By the way, as I re-read my earlier email, I notice that my reference to a "bannister" may be even less clear than I thought. The perspective I describe is of a person standing backward on some stairs with the left hand sliding down a bannister on the left.
Take care,
Audi
Hi Simon,
I saw your recent post on the Yang Family board about photos of your postures. You're form looks great, but you are certainly a brave soul.
. I can barely stand to look at my own pictures, let alone invite others to do so. Since you are bravely asking for comments, I will try to follow Bob's lead and honour your request.I feel awkward posting something on the board that might seem like criticism, so I thought I would send an email instead. I hope that is okay. If you want to quote some of my comments to reply on the board and continue the discussion there, I would not mind. Or, if you would prefer, we can keep this by email. I must confess, however, that I do not check my email regularly.
I once had a fantastic experience when a teacher took my form apart posture by posture. It was quite humbling, but also transformational. At the same time I was told that my postures where quite "standard," I received specific corrections for everying single posture except the Preparation Posture, Golden Rooster (Left), and the Closing posture. Please take my comments in that spirit.
From your earlier posts and the pictures, it seems that your form is very close to what the Association teaches, but there are differences. Since I do not feel qualified to state what is good Tai Chi or bad Tai Chi, I will try only to point out where I have significant doubts or could not defend your particular choices.
Lan Chiao Wei/Grasp Bird's Tail:
Your spirit looks fantastic, but the focus seems to be on your left hand. Is that your intention?
Why do you lift your left hand so high? Where are you focusing your energy, or what is the application you envision? It seems that your choice is driven by your gaze, rather than the other way around.
Your right elbow and palm seem to have a focus of pushing to the rear at the angle of your rear leg. Is this the energy you want to manifest? We show Pluck/Ts'ai with the palm flatter, as if pulling an arm backward.
Peng:
We use different Jin points than you seem to show here, so it is difficult for me to relate fully. It seems that your Jin point is in the right palm. Is your left palm also focused on the same point? It seems lower and a little to the left.
Your spirit again looks great, but do you mean to focus it on your right hand?
Pai Hao Liang Shih/White Crane Cools its Wings.:
This posture seems significantly higher than the preceding ones.
You have your right arm in the shape of a parenthesis, whereas we do it more rounded, more like the bend in a "c". With us, it also ends up directly over the head, rather than to the right.
I am not entirely sure how the left palm should be oriented, but I think I have the Tiger's Mouth face more forward, rather than the middle finger. My way makes my elbow feel more "down." I also seat the wrist slightly more, so that the palm and fingers are at least flat.
It is hard to see the exact relationship between your feet, but we place them so that they would be touching the opposites sides of an imaginary string bisecting your body front to back. Again, it is hard to tell, but your foot placement seems wider and seems to pull your left hip slightly lower than your right.
Tanbien/Single Whip:
Your spirit again looks fantastic.
Your left knee looks like it is just slightly too bent, but with your evident leg strength you might be able to get away with this. I would think though, that your Bow Stances should have a more consistent knee bend.
We perform this posture with the right wrist more or less at throat height. Yours seems quite high.
We would also attempt more bend in the right wrist, with less curve in the fingers. I remember Yang Zhenduo would always say at seminars not to "pinch," but simply to bring the fingers together.
You might want to extend the fingers in your left palm slightly more to show more energy and spirit.
Ti Shou Shang Shih/Raise Hands:
I can't see anything to comment on, except that your spirit seems to show more "up-and-down in the arms, whereas we might show more "side-to-side." To be sure, I would want to see how you "attacked" the final position.
Hsia Fei Shih/Diaonal Flying:
Your body seems quite open to the side. We would have the left shoulder more forward, although not square to the direction of the right arm.
Also, is your right palm pointing in line with your right knee? It is hard to see, but it might be "over-rotated"?
I teach people to hold their left palm as if it had been sliding down a bannister parallel with the right leg and knee, so that the palm ends up tilted upward and more in line (left to right) with the right thigh. Yours seems to be pushing behind, rather than showing "Pluck/Ts'ai" energy. Yang Jun talks about keeping the left hand "in front of the body."
I have run out of time, but hope this is helpful. Let me know if you would like me to continue.
Take care,
Audi
Dear Audi,
Thanks a lot for taking the time and trouble to comment on my form postures in such detail. I'm really grateful for this and I'll respond to your points one by one, so I've copied the relevant part of your email below and will answer each part. Your comments are all very relevant and also I have to say that your reply and those of others have actually given me a lot of encouragement as I was worried that a lot more would actually be 'wrong' as it were ...
In a message dated 03/08/2007 19:03:59 GMT Standard Time, apeal@patmedia.net writes:
Lan Chiao Wei/Grasp Bird's Tail:
Your spirit looks fantastic, but the focus seems to be on your left hand. Is that your intention?
Why do you lift your left hand so high? Where are you focusing your energy, or what is the application you envision? It seems that your choice is driven by your gaze, rather than the other way around.
Your right elbow and palm seem to have a focus of pushing to the rear at the angle of your rear leg. Is this the energy you want to manifest? We show Pluck/Ts'ai with the palm flatter, as if pulling an arm backward.
I hold the left hand so high because, simply, that is what I was taught to do by Grandmaster Lu. In nearly all of his positions, the attacking hand is held either with the finger tips parallel to the eyes or if the hand is for instance in a ward off position as here, then the hand is held such that if it was rotated, then the finger tips would be in line with the eyes. He is very particular about this. The application I am envisaging is is an internal block with the left hand under the opponent's right armpit and then pulling the opponent's right wrist down and back with the intention of putting his arm under pressure at the elbow. As for the position of my right hand, I have in fact modified what I was taught here in order to bring it more in line with pictures in photos of Yang Zhen Duo and Yang Cheng Fu. I think you'd be surprised if you saw Master Lu in the posture, as his right hand is even further back than mine in Lan Chiao Wei - in fact at about 20 degrees below the horizontal!
Peng:
We use different Jin points than you seem to show here, so it is difficult for me to relate fully. It seems that your Jin point is in the right palm. Is your left palm also focused on the same point? It seems lower and a little to the left.
Your spirit again looks great, but do you mean to focus it on your right hand?
Yes, my focus is on the right palm but also on the left as applying pressure to the front of the opponent's upper arm while the right is in ward off behind it. I was taught to have the left hand about three inches from the palm of the right, not behind the wrist as I think the Yangs themselves do, and with the middle finger of the left hand in line with the centre of the right palm. I have found that if I concentrate on the acupressure points in that finger tip and in the centre of the right palm, I feel a very strong connection between the two and also warmth.
Pai Hao Liang Shih/White Crane Cools its Wings.:
This posture seems significantly higher than the preceding ones.
You have your right arm in the shape of a parenthesis, whereas we do it more rounded, more like the bend in a "c". With us, it also ends up directly over the head, rather than to the right.
I am not entirely sure how the left palm should be oriented, but I think I have the Tiger's Mouth face more forward, rather than the middle finger. My way makes my elbow feel more "down." I also seat the wrist slightly more, so that the palm and fingers are at least flat.
It is hard to see the exact relationship between your feet, but we place them so that they would be touching the opposites sides of an imaginary string bisecting your body front to back. Again, it is hard to tell, but your foot placement seems wider and seems to pull your left hip slightly lower than your right.
Again, I am aware of this difference you point out between the way I have been taught this movement and the final posture in Yang family photos and videos that I've watched on YouTube. Master Lu's right hand is higher in this posture than the Yangs'. I once tried to adopt the Yangs' more C shaped posture of the right arm in one of Master Lu's classes and he immediately pounced on this and told me it was wrong and that I should have the right hand higher! Certainly the high right hand reflects the application of blocking the opponent's attacking arm from below and then really throwing it away upwards with an accompanying rising of the body to give added momentum to make his arm really fly away. Also, Master Lu brings the left knee up high, to waist height in Pai Hao Liang Shih as the right arm splits away upwards and the application is to knee the opponent in the bollocks while the right wrist throws his arm away upwards. The foot is then set down as the Yangs do it, with, and he's very specific about this, just the very outside edge of the very tip of the left big toe touching the ground very lightly. The left hand I have been taught my Master Lu should be one fist's width away from the left thigh and parallel with it. The body only then begins to sink when the following Lu Shi Au Bu commences. So again I just have to plead, well - this is the way I was taught it! I take your point about the relative alignment of my feet here and the analogy of the string and I will work on correcting this and I'm grateful to you for pointing it out as I really hadn't thought about that ever.
Tanbien/Single Whip:
Your spirit again looks fantastic.
Your left knee looks like it is just slightly too bent, but with your evident leg strength you might be able to get away with this. I would think though, that your Bow Stances should have a more consistent knee bend.
We perform this posture with the right wrist more or less at throat height. Yours seems quite high.
We would also attempt more bend in the right wrist, with less curve in the fingers. I remember Yang Zhenduo would always say at seminars not to "pinch," but simply to bring the fingers together.
You might want to extend the fingers in your left palm slightly more to show more energy and spirit.
Again, I can only make the same point as justification for this! Namely (you must be sick of hearing the same old record by now) - well, that's how I was taught it. Again, Master Lu is really insistent about the position of the right hand being rather higher than the Yangs do it. He's very fussy about the right hand position and when I asked him for further specification to help me keep it aligned as he would want it, he said the top of the right wrist must be in line with the top of the right ear. That's how specific he was. As for the left hand, according to him, this is held such that you must look through the 'V' of the forefinger and thumb as through the 'V' of a gun sight. Having read Yang Zhen Duo's copiously illustrated book, 'Yang Style Taijiquan' and of course Yang Cheng Fu's book translated by Louis, I can of course easily notice the lower position of the right arm adopted by the Yangs themselves. I've tried introducing this lower position into my form practice but I find it just feels unbalanced for me, however authentic it is. I prefer, having tried both, to do it Master Lu's way as I find the body feels more balanced with the top of the right wrist and the tips, e of the left fingers on the same level. The body then really sinks into the posture and it feels very much as if I am suspended like a marionette puppet. With the right arm more horizontal I feel a strong disconnection of the right side of my body. The higher right hand position probably makes the right wrist appear as if it is not sufficiently bent, but I can assure you that my wrist joint is actually bent as far down as I can in this photo but of course with the right arm higher, the fingers can't point down to the ground as they can with the right wrist held at throat height.
Ti Shou Shang Shih/Raise Hands:
I can't see anything to comment on, except that your spirit seems to show more "up-and-down in the arms, whereas we might show more "side-to-side." To be sure, I would want to see how you "attacked" the final position.
Here, Master Lu emphasises the application as being grasping the punching arm of the attacker and then pushing it away, in contrast to Shou Hui Pipa, which is approached with a more rounded rather than a pushing movement as Shou Hui Pipa is breaking the opponent's arm at the elbow, not pushing him away with his arm.
Hsia Fei Shih/Diaonal Flying:
Your body seems quite open to the side. We would have the left shoulder more forward, although not square to the direction of the right arm.
Also, is your right palm pointing in line with your right knee? It is hard to see, but it might be "over-rotated"?
I teach people to hold their left palm as if it had been sliding down a bannister parallel with the right leg and knee, so that the palm ends up tilted upward and more in line (left to right) with the right thigh. Yours seems to be pushing behind, rather than showing "Pluck/Ts'ai" energy. Yang Jun talks about keeping the left hand "in front of the body."
I think it's just the camera angle as far as the right hand is concerned. In fact, just to be perfectly sure, I've just jumped up from the computer and quickly gone into the posture and my right arm is indeed aligned with the right knee quite unconsciously. So I think in this case it's the camera angle or maybe my friend took the picture later than I thought he had done and was actually coming out of the posture and was caught just doing that, I don't know. As for the left (sorry about playing the same old record yet again), but this is just how I was taught it. Again, Master Lu, as ever, was very precise about the position of the left hand here. It should be parallel with the left thigh, and a fist's width away from it. The application is more or less the same as Yeh Ma Feng Tung, but with a turn of course.
I'm very grateful for your comments about my spirit in the form and I'm amazed that this has come through in the photos. Certainly, the form I have been taught is application based and those slight differences from the way the Yangs do things in detail reflects maybe a slightly different application, or possibly might even derive from a slightly earlier phase in the evolution of the Yang Cheng Fu form, which of course Yang Cheng Fu was constantly tinkering with in details.
Once again, thanks a lot for taking the time and trouble to comment. With your agreement, I'd like to publish your message and this reply on the Forum as I think everyone could benefit from your comments, not just myself, but I won't do this without your final permission, so please just drop me a line to confirm finally whether that's o.k. or not.
Best wishes,
Simon.
Dear Simon,
Here are some comments I had with respect to your replies. I have marked citations from your earlier comments with quotes and italics.
Ward Off Left:
"The application I am envisaging is is an internal block with the left hand under the opponent's right armpit and then pulling the opponent's right wrist down and back with the intention of putting his arm under pressure at the elbow."
I am a little puzzled how you can lock the elbow from this position, but I think I understand your description.
"As for the position of my right hand, I have in fact modified what I was taught here in order to bring it more in line with pictures in photos of Yang Zhen Duo and Yang Cheng Fu."
I am not sure from your words how you want to "standardize" your movements, but let me describe what Yang Zhenduo and Yang Jun do. For both Ward Off Left and Right, they use the middle of the inside of the lead forearm as the Jin point, not the wrist or palm. In Ward Off Left, the left arm is trying to point due west. For me, my left wrist reaches further than the outside of my right foot. The left armpit must, however, remain open, which imparts a slight curve from shoulder to elbow. I describe the feeling almost as if holding the arm stretched out in the way a waiter might drape a cloth across his arm or a matador might hold out a cape. The left palm faces slightly upward in order to expose the Jin point. The right hand is positioned as if pulling a towel across and down from the Jin point in the left arm. Since the body is quite open to the side, the sensation is that you are doing this on the right side of the body.
Ward Off Right:
"I was taught to have the left hand about three inches from the palm of the right, not behind the wrist as I think the Yangs themselves do, and with the middle finger of the left hand in line with the centre of the right palm."
The application that we show in our standard form is to use the middle of the inside of the right forearm even with the midline and under the point of the opponent's elbow. The hollow of the left palm is then pushing down on the opponen'ts wrist.
White Crane:
"I take your point about the relative alignment of my feet here and the analogy of the string and I will work on correcting this and I'm grateful to you for pointing it out as I really hadn't thought about that ever. "
To check your alightment, pivot your back foot so that it is parallel to your front foot and then slide your front back even with your back foot. Both feet should be touching and in line. If you do the same exercise in a bow stance, your feet will end up shoulder width apart.
Single Whip:
" I've tried introducing this lower position into my form practice but I find it just feels unbalanced for me, however authentic it is. I prefer, having tried both, to do it Master Lu's way as I find the body feels more balanced with the top of the right wrist and the tips, e of the left fingers on the same level. The body then really sinks into the posture and it feels very much as if I am suspended like a marionette puppet. With the right arm more horizontal I feel a strong disconnection of the right side of my body."
You give a nice description here. To me, what you describe seems much more oriented to the front than what I have been taught. The feeling for my form, as I understand it, is of one sending energy equally forward and backward. The balance I find is in sinking through the Jin point in my left palm heel and stretching upward into the Jin point in the outside of my right wrist. The left arm curves downward, and the right arm curves upward. The two together form an S curve, the left fingers even with the right wrist, and the left wrist even with the right fingers.
"The higher right hand position probably makes the right wrist appear as if it is not sufficiently bent, but I can assure you that my wrist joint is actually bent as far down as I can in this photo but of course with the right arm higher, the fingers can't point down to the ground as they can with the right wrist held at throat height."
If this is the case, then I think you may be pinching your fingers, rather than gathering them together. Try exposing the pads of your fingers more so that the knuckles are straighter. As for me, the hand position I achieve would allow me to "peck" on a table top with the pads of my fingers with all of the knuckles supporting the energy and without the fingernails interfering.
"With your agreement, I'd like to publish your message and this reply on the Forum as I think everyone could benefit from your comments, not just myself, but I won't do this without your final permission, so please just drop me a line to confirm finally whether that's o.k. or not."
Feel free to copy any of the relevant portions of our exchange to the board. Thanks for your consideration.
Regards,
Audi
-
Simon Batten
- Posts: 153
- Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:01 am
- Location: Brighton, East Sussex, England
Rich: thanks a lot for these additional tips which I shall start incorporating today! Especially the Ta Hu point makes a lot of sense and I think that coupled with an earlier comment about my right shoulder being too elevated in the posture, this will really help me get it right (well, as right as possible ...).
I'd also like to take this opportunity to thank both those involved who patiently took the photos - my good friend Mr Tim Crocker, who I have know for many years, with his excellent digital Pentax. More particularly, I'm very grateful to my Mum for her patience. The only camera I have is an old Canon 35mm SLR from the 60s which is completely manual apart from a needle light meter which can be seen in the viewfinder. To make life easier for her, I set the camera up on a tripod and adjusted the focus and light so all she had to do was get me in the frame and press the button. Even so, it was a difficult exercise for her and I had to get her to repeat a few shots which she had obviously taken too late or too early in some cases. Amazingly, most of her photos came out very well, I think. I had them transferred to disc and then uploaded them. They needed no onscreen adjustment (i.e. autocorrect, etc) at all and in fact all I had to do was crop a few of them. Kind regards, Simon.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Rich:
<B> Hi Simon,
I appreciate the difficulties of posing for photos, especially in public places - enough to unrelax anybody! What I meant was to try not to try so hard to have quite such a big extended frame (hope this makes sense!!). This, I think, will have the effect of facilitating Serena's advice (which is very good).
Another couple of quick posture pick ups: Rear hand in repulse monkey is too far back (chest too open), and hit tiger - try rounding things out a bit more and get your bottom arm further away from your body.
Lastly, my respects to your bravery in putting your form up for critique in this way. I'm sure you'll make the most of the excercise. It will be interesting to see how you get on if you post similar pictures in the future.
Regards,
Rich</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'd also like to take this opportunity to thank both those involved who patiently took the photos - my good friend Mr Tim Crocker, who I have know for many years, with his excellent digital Pentax. More particularly, I'm very grateful to my Mum for her patience. The only camera I have is an old Canon 35mm SLR from the 60s which is completely manual apart from a needle light meter which can be seen in the viewfinder. To make life easier for her, I set the camera up on a tripod and adjusted the focus and light so all she had to do was get me in the frame and press the button. Even so, it was a difficult exercise for her and I had to get her to repeat a few shots which she had obviously taken too late or too early in some cases. Amazingly, most of her photos came out very well, I think. I had them transferred to disc and then uploaded them. They needed no onscreen adjustment (i.e. autocorrect, etc) at all and in fact all I had to do was crop a few of them. Kind regards, Simon.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Rich:
<B> Hi Simon,
I appreciate the difficulties of posing for photos, especially in public places - enough to unrelax anybody! What I meant was to try not to try so hard to have quite such a big extended frame (hope this makes sense!!). This, I think, will have the effect of facilitating Serena's advice (which is very good).
Another couple of quick posture pick ups: Rear hand in repulse monkey is too far back (chest too open), and hit tiger - try rounding things out a bit more and get your bottom arm further away from your body.
Lastly, my respects to your bravery in putting your form up for critique in this way. I'm sure you'll make the most of the excercise. It will be interesting to see how you get on if you post similar pictures in the future.
Regards,
Rich</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi Simon,
Here are some additional comments.
"Chin Pu Pan Lan Chi"/Deflect Downwards, Parry and Punch:
My attention is again drawn to the height of your fist. It seems consistent with some of your other postures, but not with others. I would, however, question it more in this case. Again, follow your teacher.
What we do is keep the fist vertically and horizontally even with the shoulder. I think the philosophy behind this choice is to train the position where the fist has maximum support from the trunk, as carried by the waist. All the straight forward strikes in the form are in the same place, except for Punch to the Groin, Punch Downward, and High Pat on Horse Thrusting Palm. In these postures, the application requires an adjustment.
I also wonder whether Tai Chi practitioners avoided fist strikes to the jaw and whether this was perhaps to avoid injuring the fist against the jaw or on the opponent's teeth. In an era lacking antibiotics and limited capability to set bones, infections or broken bones could be permanently crippling or life threatening.
As for your left palm, it appears to be even with your right elbow. We try to perform with the left palm even with the inside of the right forearm (I mistakenly typed "elbow" here and so have no edited this mistake).
"Tao Nien Hou"/Monkey Steps Back to Push Away (right)":
Have your right fingers passed the height of your gaze? From what I understand, you should not be so much looking through the Tiger's Mouth as even with it. This allows the wrist to remain even with the height of the shoulder. Otherwise, your arm will be slanted upward for no apparent gain in structure.
This posture looks quite different from Raise Hands, whereas I think they should be more similar. For some reason, it seems that you are not as comfortable with your stride length here as you are elsewhere.
We perform this posture with the weight percentage at 30-70, whereas you seem to be doing it with more like 20-80. You may also want to examine whether your right knee is too straight and what happens when you move into the next posture and lift the right toes.
Your left knee seems to point too far inside, rather than even with the toes. This position also seems to tilt your left ankle. Perhaps the ground is not even. Your right hip also seems higher than the left, and your pelvis may not be sufficiently lengthened, preventing you from completely droping the tailbone, opening the Ming Men, and sinking your Qi. Here your Qi looks like it is stuck in your chest. All these things may result from the length of your stride.
Your torso appears slightly overrotated. I am not sure of the requirements, but I try to perform it with the left shoulder "even" with the direction of the left toes," making my posture less open than yours. This would also make my shoulder blades more open.
Lastly, we perform this and similar postures with the left elbow pointing straight back to the rear, parallel to the right foot. This is in physical opposition to the forward stretching of the right hand and helps keep the shoulder blades open. You appear, however, to be pointing your left elbow to the right rear, parallel to the left foot and in harmony with the rotation of the waist.
"Yu Ta Hu"/Hit Tiger (right):
It appears as if you have allowed the counterclockwise rotation of your arms to be manifested in your spine and right shoulder. In other words, your spine does not appear straight and your right shoulder is too high.
The bend in the wrists makes it hard to keep the face of the fists even; however, I am not sure whether you could not have less protrusion in the knuckles of your index fingers and have the face of the fists flatter.
What exactly are you punching with your top fist? Unlike most of your other postures, the spirit here does not look clear and comfortable.
We may use a slightly different positioning of the hands. Imagine that I asked you to hold more or less the same hand positions, but handed you a long staff that you were to hold in front of your body. The distance between the staff and your body should be about the width of two flat fists. In our case, the eyes of the two fists are looking directly up and down at each other; whereas the eyes of your fists are pointing forward. I also wonder whether your left fist is too close to the body.
"Yu T'i Chiao"/Kick with Right Sole
If this is what you look like after a 30 second pause, hats off to you.
It looks as if you have sacrificed straightness in your spine to keep your leg level. Since there is no particular requirement to kick at any real height (outside of a competition), it would be better to kick lower. For the same reason, it would be easier to keep your arms level.
It is hard to see, but I wonder whether your right hand is too flat to the direction of your foot and not showing enough "knife edge"?
We also perform kicks with the supporting leg basically straight and without an intentional bend. Yang Jun talks about keeping it naturally straight and not locked. Here it looks as if you are following a different principle.
I am out of time, but hope this helps.
Take care,
Audi
[This message has been edited by Audi (edited 09-02-2007).]
Here are some additional comments.
"Chin Pu Pan Lan Chi"/Deflect Downwards, Parry and Punch:
My attention is again drawn to the height of your fist. It seems consistent with some of your other postures, but not with others. I would, however, question it more in this case. Again, follow your teacher.
What we do is keep the fist vertically and horizontally even with the shoulder. I think the philosophy behind this choice is to train the position where the fist has maximum support from the trunk, as carried by the waist. All the straight forward strikes in the form are in the same place, except for Punch to the Groin, Punch Downward, and High Pat on Horse Thrusting Palm. In these postures, the application requires an adjustment.
I also wonder whether Tai Chi practitioners avoided fist strikes to the jaw and whether this was perhaps to avoid injuring the fist against the jaw or on the opponent's teeth. In an era lacking antibiotics and limited capability to set bones, infections or broken bones could be permanently crippling or life threatening.
As for your left palm, it appears to be even with your right elbow. We try to perform with the left palm even with the inside of the right forearm (I mistakenly typed "elbow" here and so have no edited this mistake).
"Tao Nien Hou"/Monkey Steps Back to Push Away (right)":
Have your right fingers passed the height of your gaze? From what I understand, you should not be so much looking through the Tiger's Mouth as even with it. This allows the wrist to remain even with the height of the shoulder. Otherwise, your arm will be slanted upward for no apparent gain in structure.
This posture looks quite different from Raise Hands, whereas I think they should be more similar. For some reason, it seems that you are not as comfortable with your stride length here as you are elsewhere.
We perform this posture with the weight percentage at 30-70, whereas you seem to be doing it with more like 20-80. You may also want to examine whether your right knee is too straight and what happens when you move into the next posture and lift the right toes.
Your left knee seems to point too far inside, rather than even with the toes. This position also seems to tilt your left ankle. Perhaps the ground is not even. Your right hip also seems higher than the left, and your pelvis may not be sufficiently lengthened, preventing you from completely droping the tailbone, opening the Ming Men, and sinking your Qi. Here your Qi looks like it is stuck in your chest. All these things may result from the length of your stride.
Your torso appears slightly overrotated. I am not sure of the requirements, but I try to perform it with the left shoulder "even" with the direction of the left toes," making my posture less open than yours. This would also make my shoulder blades more open.
Lastly, we perform this and similar postures with the left elbow pointing straight back to the rear, parallel to the right foot. This is in physical opposition to the forward stretching of the right hand and helps keep the shoulder blades open. You appear, however, to be pointing your left elbow to the right rear, parallel to the left foot and in harmony with the rotation of the waist.
"Yu Ta Hu"/Hit Tiger (right):
It appears as if you have allowed the counterclockwise rotation of your arms to be manifested in your spine and right shoulder. In other words, your spine does not appear straight and your right shoulder is too high.
The bend in the wrists makes it hard to keep the face of the fists even; however, I am not sure whether you could not have less protrusion in the knuckles of your index fingers and have the face of the fists flatter.
What exactly are you punching with your top fist? Unlike most of your other postures, the spirit here does not look clear and comfortable.
We may use a slightly different positioning of the hands. Imagine that I asked you to hold more or less the same hand positions, but handed you a long staff that you were to hold in front of your body. The distance between the staff and your body should be about the width of two flat fists. In our case, the eyes of the two fists are looking directly up and down at each other; whereas the eyes of your fists are pointing forward. I also wonder whether your left fist is too close to the body.
"Yu T'i Chiao"/Kick with Right Sole
If this is what you look like after a 30 second pause, hats off to you.
It looks as if you have sacrificed straightness in your spine to keep your leg level. Since there is no particular requirement to kick at any real height (outside of a competition), it would be better to kick lower. For the same reason, it would be easier to keep your arms level.
It is hard to see, but I wonder whether your right hand is too flat to the direction of your foot and not showing enough "knife edge"?
We also perform kicks with the supporting leg basically straight and without an intentional bend. Yang Jun talks about keeping it naturally straight and not locked. Here it looks as if you are following a different principle.
I am out of time, but hope this helps.
Take care,
Audi
[This message has been edited by Audi (edited 09-02-2007).]
-
Simon Batten
- Posts: 153
- Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:01 am
- Location: Brighton, East Sussex, England
Audi: Please accept my apologies for not replying earlier to your latest message. I've been a bit busy with this and that this week and have only had time to respond on the Tanbien thread that I initiated. However, I have read your message very carefully and once again I am very grateful to you for taking so much time and trouble to look at my form postures and analyse them. I think that everything you have said in this latest message is worthy of a considerable degree of reflection on my part. The only reason why I am not responding to the points at any length is that in fact I accept in full everything you have said here... The points you have raised really do require my attention and I have already begun incorporating them into my practice with beneficial results. Once again therefore, I would like to say that I am very pleased I made this posting. The response has been phenomenal and has provided me with an enormous amount to think about, reflect upon and incorporate into my practice. Already, my T'ai feels different and improved and I am sure I will reap many further rewards as time goes by from incorporation of the many suggestions here into my form practice. Kind regards, Simon. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Audi:
<B>Hi Simon,
Here are some additional comments.
"Chin Pu Pan Lan Chi"/Deflect Downwards, Parry and Punch:
My attention is again drawn to the height of your fist. It seems consistent with some of your other postures, but not with others. I would, however, question it more in this case. Again, follow your teacher.
What we do is keep the fist vertically and horizontally even with the shoulder. I think the philosophy behind this choice is to train the position where the fist has maximum support from the trunk, as carried by the waist. All the straight forward strikes in the form are in the same place, except for Punch to the Groin, Punch Downward, and High Pat on Horse Thrusting Palm. In these postures, the application requires an adjustment.
I also wonder whether Tai Chi practitioners avoided fist strikes to the jaw and whether this was perhaps to avoid injuring the fist against the jaw or on the opponent's teeth. In an era lacking antibiotics and limited capability to set bones, infections or broken bones could be permanently crippling or life threatening.
As for your left palm, it appears to be even with your right elbow. We try to perform with the left palm even with the inside of the right elbow.
"Tao Nien Hou"/Monkey Steps Back to Push Away (right)":
Have your right fingers passed the height of your gaze? From what I understand, you should not be so much looking through the Tiger's Mouth as even with it. This allows the wrist to remain even with the height of the shoulder. Otherwise, your arm will be slanted upward for no apparent gain in structure.
This posture looks quite different from Raise Hands, whereas I think they should be more similar. For some reason, it seems that you are not as comfortable with your stride length here as you are elsewhere.
We perform this posture with the weight percentage at 30-70, whereas you seem to be doing it with more like 20-80. You may also want to examine whether your right knee is too straight and what happens when you move into the next posture and lift the right toes.
Your left knee seems to point too far inside, rather than even with the toes. This position also seems to tilt your left ankle. Perhaps the ground is not even. Your right hip also seems higher than the left, and your pelvis may not be sufficiently lengthened, preventing you from completely droping the tailbone, opening the Ming Men, and sinking your Qi. Here your Qi looks like it is stuck in your chest. All these things may result from the length of your stride.
Your torso appears slightly overrotated. I am not sure of the requirements, but I try to perform it with the left shoulder "even" with the direction of the left toes," making my posture less open than yours. This would also make my shoulder blades more open.
Lastly, we perform this and similar postures with the left elbow pointing straight back to the rear, parallel to the right foot. This is in physical opposition to the forward stretching of the right hand and helps keep the shoulder blades open. You appear, however, to be pointing your left elbow to the right rear, parallel to the left foot and in harmony with the rotation of the waist.
"Yu Ta Hu"/Hit Tiger (right):
It appears as if you have allowed the counterclockwise rotation of your arms to be manifested in your spine and right shoulder. In other words, your spine does not appear straight and your right shoulder is too high.
The bend in the wrists makes it hard to keep the face of the fists even; however, I am not sure whether you could not have less protrusion in the knuckles of your index fingers and have the face of the fists flatter.
What exactly are you punching with your top fist? Unlike most of your other postures, the spirit here does not look clear and comfortable.
We may use a slightly different positioning of the hands. Imagine that I asked you to hold more or less the same hand positions, but handed you a long staff that you were to hold in front of your body. The distance between the staff and your body should be about the width of two flat fists. In our case, the eyes of the two fists are looking directly up and down at each other; whereas the eyes of your fists are pointing forward. I also wonder whether your left fist is too close to the body.
"Yu T'i Chiao"/Kick with Right Sole
If this is what you look like after a 30 second pause, hats off to you.
It looks as if you have sacrificed straightness in your spine to keep your leg level. Since there is no particular requirement to kick at any real height (outside of a competition), it would be better to kick lower. For the same reason, it would be easier to keep your arms level.
It is hard to see, but I wonder whether your right hand is too flat to the direction of your foot and not showing enough "knife edge"?
We also perform kicks with the supporting leg basically straight and without an intentional bend. Yang Jun talks about keeping it naturally straight and not locked. Here it looks as if you are following a different principle.
I am out of time, but hope this helps.
Take care,
Audi</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<B>Hi Simon,
Here are some additional comments.
"Chin Pu Pan Lan Chi"/Deflect Downwards, Parry and Punch:
My attention is again drawn to the height of your fist. It seems consistent with some of your other postures, but not with others. I would, however, question it more in this case. Again, follow your teacher.
What we do is keep the fist vertically and horizontally even with the shoulder. I think the philosophy behind this choice is to train the position where the fist has maximum support from the trunk, as carried by the waist. All the straight forward strikes in the form are in the same place, except for Punch to the Groin, Punch Downward, and High Pat on Horse Thrusting Palm. In these postures, the application requires an adjustment.
I also wonder whether Tai Chi practitioners avoided fist strikes to the jaw and whether this was perhaps to avoid injuring the fist against the jaw or on the opponent's teeth. In an era lacking antibiotics and limited capability to set bones, infections or broken bones could be permanently crippling or life threatening.
As for your left palm, it appears to be even with your right elbow. We try to perform with the left palm even with the inside of the right elbow.
"Tao Nien Hou"/Monkey Steps Back to Push Away (right)":
Have your right fingers passed the height of your gaze? From what I understand, you should not be so much looking through the Tiger's Mouth as even with it. This allows the wrist to remain even with the height of the shoulder. Otherwise, your arm will be slanted upward for no apparent gain in structure.
This posture looks quite different from Raise Hands, whereas I think they should be more similar. For some reason, it seems that you are not as comfortable with your stride length here as you are elsewhere.
We perform this posture with the weight percentage at 30-70, whereas you seem to be doing it with more like 20-80. You may also want to examine whether your right knee is too straight and what happens when you move into the next posture and lift the right toes.
Your left knee seems to point too far inside, rather than even with the toes. This position also seems to tilt your left ankle. Perhaps the ground is not even. Your right hip also seems higher than the left, and your pelvis may not be sufficiently lengthened, preventing you from completely droping the tailbone, opening the Ming Men, and sinking your Qi. Here your Qi looks like it is stuck in your chest. All these things may result from the length of your stride.
Your torso appears slightly overrotated. I am not sure of the requirements, but I try to perform it with the left shoulder "even" with the direction of the left toes," making my posture less open than yours. This would also make my shoulder blades more open.
Lastly, we perform this and similar postures with the left elbow pointing straight back to the rear, parallel to the right foot. This is in physical opposition to the forward stretching of the right hand and helps keep the shoulder blades open. You appear, however, to be pointing your left elbow to the right rear, parallel to the left foot and in harmony with the rotation of the waist.
"Yu Ta Hu"/Hit Tiger (right):
It appears as if you have allowed the counterclockwise rotation of your arms to be manifested in your spine and right shoulder. In other words, your spine does not appear straight and your right shoulder is too high.
The bend in the wrists makes it hard to keep the face of the fists even; however, I am not sure whether you could not have less protrusion in the knuckles of your index fingers and have the face of the fists flatter.
What exactly are you punching with your top fist? Unlike most of your other postures, the spirit here does not look clear and comfortable.
We may use a slightly different positioning of the hands. Imagine that I asked you to hold more or less the same hand positions, but handed you a long staff that you were to hold in front of your body. The distance between the staff and your body should be about the width of two flat fists. In our case, the eyes of the two fists are looking directly up and down at each other; whereas the eyes of your fists are pointing forward. I also wonder whether your left fist is too close to the body.
"Yu T'i Chiao"/Kick with Right Sole
If this is what you look like after a 30 second pause, hats off to you.
It looks as if you have sacrificed straightness in your spine to keep your leg level. Since there is no particular requirement to kick at any real height (outside of a competition), it would be better to kick lower. For the same reason, it would be easier to keep your arms level.
It is hard to see, but I wonder whether your right hand is too flat to the direction of your foot and not showing enough "knife edge"?
We also perform kicks with the supporting leg basically straight and without an intentional bend. Yang Jun talks about keeping it naturally straight and not locked. Here it looks as if you are following a different principle.
I am out of time, but hope this helps.
Take care,
Audi</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
-
Kalamondin
- Posts: 309
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 7:01 am
-
Simon Batten
- Posts: 153
- Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:01 am
- Location: Brighton, East Sussex, England
Hi Simon:
Here are some more comments, to try to finish up.
In my earlier post, I mistakenly typed “elbow” instead of “forearm,” where I described how we orient the left palm on the right arm in Deflect Downward Parry and Punch. I have edited the posting.
Yeh Ma Feng Tung/Part Wild Horse's Mane (left):
There are a number of aspects of your posture that are different from what we do. This makes it difficult for me to evaluate what you are doing. It seems that you have been taught to keep your spine straight, but I wonder whether your hips are still level and whether your lower spine is not bent forward towards the left arm. Basically, it seems that your upper torso is not quite centered over your pelvis.
Your intent actually seems closer to what we do, since we purposefully lean forward; however, we also have the torso less open and the right arm lower.
It is difficult to see, but it looks like your gaze is focused on your left palm, rather than further out from your body. As far as I can recall, we never or only very rarely focus the gaze directly on our own bodies.
She Shen Hsia Shih/Snake Creeps Down:
I should confess that my flexibility is not what it should be, and so I usually botch this posture; however, in my mind’s eye I imagine I can see a graceful and accurate posture. Using that posture as my guide, I will make my comments.
We do not rotate the left foot and so have different hip and knee dynamics from what you show. This makes it hard for me to evaluate the relationship between your torso and your lower body; nevertheless, there are a few minor things that I wonder about. First, it looks as if your right shoulder is open a little too far and has lost the feeling of “plucking up the back” that Serena commented on. It also seems that the direction of your right arm is rotated behind your right knee, rather than even with it, although this may be a necessary consequence of the orientation of your left foot.
The feeling I have when doing this posture is one of going down the back of a Ferris Wheel and then leaning forward slightly and shooting my left arm out. I don’t feel much of a need to twist or rotate my torso, whereas the angles of your arms and legs are different from each other and have different relationships with your torso.
Another minor point is that you seem to have lost some of the extension, energy, and intent in your left fingers.
Yu Nu Ch'uan Shu/Fair Lady Weaves at Shuttles:
I would characterize your torso as showing a slight lean here. Is that what you want? Some masters teach no lean, others teach a slight lean, and yet others teach a distinct lean. You seem to show slightly more lean here than in some of your other bow stances.
Your left shoulder looks slightly higher than the right. A separate issue is whether the left shoulder joint itself is fully “down,” which is not visible from the photo. It also appears as if you orient the right hand on the midline; whereas we keep it in line with the right shoulder. It might be that as you form the final position, the positioning of your arms and rotation of the waist makes you feel a shift to the left and a vertcal clockwise rotation that manifests in a shoulder tilt.
I cannot see from the photo, but you may also want to check whether your pelvis or hips are level. One way to check is to drop your arms into the push position of Apparent Closure and feel whether both hips and both sides of your body can manifest equal power.
One last minor thing is I wonder whether you are spacing your fingers in the same way in your hands. Your right hand spacing seems quite narrow and definitely more than your left. I am nor sure what exactly I do, but I think I merely extend my fingers in their individual orientations to what I feel is naturally straight and make no effort either to separate them or bring them together. If you mentally orient your fingers to the straightness of your middle finger, you will have a more compact arrangement. If you go further and approximate some sort of pre-defined shape, you may have an even more compact shape.
Wen Kung She Hu/Bend Bow to Shoot Tiger:
This posture is much more difficult than it might seem. I have been working hard it over the last couple of years and may finally be getting it into decent shape.
In your posture, the first thing you should consider is your stance. The line of your right foot improperly bisects your left foot. My guess is that your right thigh is trying to find the true angle and that your right foot should take that line. Similarly, I suspect that your pelvis is tilted, that your right hip is higher than the left, and that your torso is leaning left into your strike. Correcting your footwork might clear up everything.
In our form, the application we show is a double punch. If you are showing the same, your right fist has an unusual orientation. We have the right fist in approximately the same position as the right palm in Fan through the Back. The back of the fist faces the temple, and the face of the fist faces forward in the same direction as the left fist.
We also orient our left fist lower than usual, below the shoulder rather than even with it. Your left fist seems even with your eyes. The application I envision is pulling the opponent from left to right from the end of Turn the Body and Sweep the Lotus. You then continue the pulling action into a vertical circle and punch to the opponent’s temple or face and to his or her ribs or body.
You may also want to check your left fist. It almost looks as if you are making the top two knuckles prominent, rather than having the face of the fist even. This might also result if you are trying to do a level punch, but at the level of your eyes. Doing this requires some compromise between the angle of your wrist, the face of the fist, and the levelness of the eye of the fist.
As I look again at your torso, I wonder if the lean is due to more than your footwork. You appear to be stretching toward your left fist intentionally. It could be that you enter the final position by vertically circling your torso under the influence of the arm circle or perhaps in an attempt to get more power into your hands. Such an intent would tend to throw your upper body to the left and your hips to the right.
As I understand it, we begin the posture with the navel facing square to the east. We then rotate the navel to the southeast corner as the right foot flattens from heel to ball and the arms swing down from extreme left and up to extreme right. We then complete the circle and rotate the navel back square to the east as the right knee is fully bent. This rotation throws the arms into an upward arc to complete their circles and provides most of the power behind the punches. By the way, we also lean in this posture, but toward the southeast corner in line with the right foot. When I do the posture with Fajin, I feel no inclination at all to lean into the punches or stretch toward the left fist. Also, the circle of the left fist ends in a very tight or small arc, producing a very sudden and quick punch unlike the other ones in the form.
I hope all this helps.
Take care,
Audi
Here are some more comments, to try to finish up.
In my earlier post, I mistakenly typed “elbow” instead of “forearm,” where I described how we orient the left palm on the right arm in Deflect Downward Parry and Punch. I have edited the posting.
Yeh Ma Feng Tung/Part Wild Horse's Mane (left):
There are a number of aspects of your posture that are different from what we do. This makes it difficult for me to evaluate what you are doing. It seems that you have been taught to keep your spine straight, but I wonder whether your hips are still level and whether your lower spine is not bent forward towards the left arm. Basically, it seems that your upper torso is not quite centered over your pelvis.
Your intent actually seems closer to what we do, since we purposefully lean forward; however, we also have the torso less open and the right arm lower.
It is difficult to see, but it looks like your gaze is focused on your left palm, rather than further out from your body. As far as I can recall, we never or only very rarely focus the gaze directly on our own bodies.
She Shen Hsia Shih/Snake Creeps Down:
I should confess that my flexibility is not what it should be, and so I usually botch this posture; however, in my mind’s eye I imagine I can see a graceful and accurate posture. Using that posture as my guide, I will make my comments.
We do not rotate the left foot and so have different hip and knee dynamics from what you show. This makes it hard for me to evaluate the relationship between your torso and your lower body; nevertheless, there are a few minor things that I wonder about. First, it looks as if your right shoulder is open a little too far and has lost the feeling of “plucking up the back” that Serena commented on. It also seems that the direction of your right arm is rotated behind your right knee, rather than even with it, although this may be a necessary consequence of the orientation of your left foot.
The feeling I have when doing this posture is one of going down the back of a Ferris Wheel and then leaning forward slightly and shooting my left arm out. I don’t feel much of a need to twist or rotate my torso, whereas the angles of your arms and legs are different from each other and have different relationships with your torso.
Another minor point is that you seem to have lost some of the extension, energy, and intent in your left fingers.
Yu Nu Ch'uan Shu/Fair Lady Weaves at Shuttles:
I would characterize your torso as showing a slight lean here. Is that what you want? Some masters teach no lean, others teach a slight lean, and yet others teach a distinct lean. You seem to show slightly more lean here than in some of your other bow stances.
Your left shoulder looks slightly higher than the right. A separate issue is whether the left shoulder joint itself is fully “down,” which is not visible from the photo. It also appears as if you orient the right hand on the midline; whereas we keep it in line with the right shoulder. It might be that as you form the final position, the positioning of your arms and rotation of the waist makes you feel a shift to the left and a vertcal clockwise rotation that manifests in a shoulder tilt.
I cannot see from the photo, but you may also want to check whether your pelvis or hips are level. One way to check is to drop your arms into the push position of Apparent Closure and feel whether both hips and both sides of your body can manifest equal power.
One last minor thing is I wonder whether you are spacing your fingers in the same way in your hands. Your right hand spacing seems quite narrow and definitely more than your left. I am nor sure what exactly I do, but I think I merely extend my fingers in their individual orientations to what I feel is naturally straight and make no effort either to separate them or bring them together. If you mentally orient your fingers to the straightness of your middle finger, you will have a more compact arrangement. If you go further and approximate some sort of pre-defined shape, you may have an even more compact shape.
Wen Kung She Hu/Bend Bow to Shoot Tiger:
This posture is much more difficult than it might seem. I have been working hard it over the last couple of years and may finally be getting it into decent shape.
In your posture, the first thing you should consider is your stance. The line of your right foot improperly bisects your left foot. My guess is that your right thigh is trying to find the true angle and that your right foot should take that line. Similarly, I suspect that your pelvis is tilted, that your right hip is higher than the left, and that your torso is leaning left into your strike. Correcting your footwork might clear up everything.
In our form, the application we show is a double punch. If you are showing the same, your right fist has an unusual orientation. We have the right fist in approximately the same position as the right palm in Fan through the Back. The back of the fist faces the temple, and the face of the fist faces forward in the same direction as the left fist.
We also orient our left fist lower than usual, below the shoulder rather than even with it. Your left fist seems even with your eyes. The application I envision is pulling the opponent from left to right from the end of Turn the Body and Sweep the Lotus. You then continue the pulling action into a vertical circle and punch to the opponent’s temple or face and to his or her ribs or body.
You may also want to check your left fist. It almost looks as if you are making the top two knuckles prominent, rather than having the face of the fist even. This might also result if you are trying to do a level punch, but at the level of your eyes. Doing this requires some compromise between the angle of your wrist, the face of the fist, and the levelness of the eye of the fist.
As I look again at your torso, I wonder if the lean is due to more than your footwork. You appear to be stretching toward your left fist intentionally. It could be that you enter the final position by vertically circling your torso under the influence of the arm circle or perhaps in an attempt to get more power into your hands. Such an intent would tend to throw your upper body to the left and your hips to the right.
As I understand it, we begin the posture with the navel facing square to the east. We then rotate the navel to the southeast corner as the right foot flattens from heel to ball and the arms swing down from extreme left and up to extreme right. We then complete the circle and rotate the navel back square to the east as the right knee is fully bent. This rotation throws the arms into an upward arc to complete their circles and provides most of the power behind the punches. By the way, we also lean in this posture, but toward the southeast corner in line with the right foot. When I do the posture with Fajin, I feel no inclination at all to lean into the punches or stretch toward the left fist. Also, the circle of the left fist ends in a very tight or small arc, producing a very sudden and quick punch unlike the other ones in the form.
I hope all this helps.
Take care,
Audi
-
Simon Batten
- Posts: 153
- Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:01 am
- Location: Brighton, East Sussex, England
Audi:
Thanks a lot for these further comments and again taking time to consider the photos once more. There's a lot here to think about and I've only just seen your message. In Yeh Ma I'm really thinking of my left wrist being under the opponent's armpit, which might perhaps explain why it looks like I'm looking at my hand rather than beyond. As for Yu Nu, I've been taught that the application here is to deflect a downwards punch to the top of the head followed by a push to the chest and this might explain why my right hand in the photo is above my head. I am deflecting a downwards punch from his right fist to the top of my head and then pushing his right chest with my left palm. I'm not aware of having different finger positions in the two hands but will think about that. If the comment applies just to Yu Nu rather than being a general one, I guess the reason might be to do with the fact that the right forearm is deflecting and twisting away upwards the downward punch while the left fingers might be more open to reflect the idea of emission of energy. As I said, there's a lot to think about here, particularly your points on She Shen Shia Shih, so I'd be grateful for some time to ponder those and then I'll get back to you after that. Thanks again, kind regards, Simon.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Audi:
<B>Hi Simon:
Here are some more comments, to try to finish up.
In my earlier post, I mistakenly typed “elbow” instead of “forearm,” where I described how we orient the left palm on the right arm in Deflect Downward Parry and Punch. I have edited the posting.
Yeh Ma Feng Tung/Part Wild Horse's Mane (left):
There are a number of aspects of your posture that are different from what we do. This makes it difficult for me to evaluate what you are doing. It seems that you have been taught to keep your spine straight, but I wonder whether your hips are still level and whether your lower spine is not bent forward towards the left arm. Basically, it seems that your upper torso is not quite centered over your pelvis.
Your intent actually seems closer to what we do, since we purposefully lean forward; however, we also have the torso less open and the right arm lower.
It is difficult to see, but it looks like your gaze is focused on your left palm, rather than further out from your body. As far as I can recall, we never or only very rarely focus the gaze directly on our own bodies.
She Shen Hsia Shih/Snake Creeps Down:
I should confess that my flexibility is not what it should be, and so I usually botch this posture; however, in my mind’s eye I imagine I can see a graceful and accurate posture. Using that posture as my guide, I will make my comments.
We do not rotate the left foot and so have different hip and knee dynamics from what you show. This makes it hard for me to evaluate the relationship between your torso and your lower body; nevertheless, there are a few minor things that I wonder about. First, it looks as if your right shoulder is open a little too far and has lost the feeling of “plucking up the back” that Serena commented on. It also seems that the direction of your right arm is rotated behind your right knee, rather than even with it, although this may be a necessary consequence of the orientation of your left foot.
The feeling I have when doing this posture is one of going down the back of a Ferris Wheel and then leaning forward slightly and shooting my left arm out. I don’t feel much of a need to twist or rotate my torso, whereas the angles of your arms and legs are different from each other and have different relationships with your torso.
Another minor point is that you seem to have lost some of the extension, energy, and intent in your left fingers.
Yu Nu Ch'uan Shu/Fair Lady Weaves at Shuttles:
I would characterize your torso as showing a slight lean here. Is that what you want? Some masters teach no lean, others teach a slight lean, and yet others teach a distinct lean. You seem to show slightly more lean here than in some of your other bow stances.
Your left shoulder looks slightly higher than the right. A separate issue is whether the left shoulder joint itself is fully “down,” which is not visible from the photo. It also appears as if you orient the right hand on the midline; whereas we keep it in line with the right shoulder. It might be that as you form the final position, the positioning of your arms and rotation of the waist makes you feel a shift to the left and a vertcal clockwise rotation that manifests in a shoulder tilt.
I cannot see from the photo, but you may also want to check whether your pelvis or hips are level. One way to check is to drop your arms into the push position of Apparent Closure and feel whether both hips and both sides of your body can manifest equal power.
One last minor thing is I wonder whether you are spacing your fingers in the same way in your hands. Your right hand spacing seems quite narrow and definitely more than your left. I am nor sure what exactly I do, but I think I merely extend my fingers in their individual orientations to what I feel is naturally straight and make no effort either to separate them or bring them together. If you mentally orient your fingers to the straightness of your middle finger, you will have a more compact arrangement. If you go further and approximate some sort of pre-defined shape, you may have an even more compact shape.
Wen Kung She Hu/Bend Bow to Shoot Tiger:
This posture is much more difficult than it might seem. I have been working hard it over the last couple of years and may finally be getting it into decent shape.
In your posture, the first thing you should consider is your stance. The line of your right foot improperly bisects your left foot. My guess is that your right thigh is trying to find the true angle and that your right foot should take that line. Similarly, I suspect that your pelvis is tilted, that your right hip is higher than the left, and that your torso is leaning left into your strike. Correcting your footwork might clear up everything.
In our form, the application we show is a double punch. If you are showing the same, your right fist has an unusual orientation. We have the right fist in approximately the same position as the right palm in Fan through the Back. The back of the fist faces the temple, and the face of the fist faces forward in the same direction as the left fist.
We also orient our left fist lower than usual, below the shoulder rather than even with it. Your left fist seems even with your eyes. The application I envision is pulling the opponent from left to right from the end of Turn the Body and Sweep the Lotus. You then continue the pulling action into a vertical circle and punch to the opponent’s temple or face and to his or her ribs or body.
You may also want to check your left fist. It almost looks as if you are making the top two knuckles prominent, rather than having the face of the fist even. This might also result if you are trying to do a level punch, but at the level of your eyes. Doing this requires some compromise between the angle of your wrist, the face of the fist, and the levelness of the eye of the fist.
As I look again at your torso, I wonder if the lean is due to more than your footwork. You appear to be stretching toward your left fist intentionally. It could be that you enter the final position by vertically circling your torso under the influence of the arm circle or perhaps in an attempt to get more power into your hands. Such an intent would tend to throw your upper body to the left and your hips to the right.
As I understand it, we begin the posture with the navel facing square to the east. We then rotate the navel to the southeast corner as the right foot flattens from heel to ball and the arms swing down from extreme left and up to extreme right. We then complete the circle and rotate the navel back square to the east as the right knee is fully bent. This rotation throws the arms into an upward arc to complete their circles and provides most of the power behind the punches. By the way, we also lean in this posture, but toward the southeast corner in line with the right foot. When I do the posture with Fajin, I feel no inclination at all to lean into the punches or stretch toward the left fist. Also, the circle of the left fist ends in a very tight or small arc, producing a very sudden and quick punch unlike the other ones in the form.
I hope all this helps.
Take care,
Audi</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks a lot for these further comments and again taking time to consider the photos once more. There's a lot here to think about and I've only just seen your message. In Yeh Ma I'm really thinking of my left wrist being under the opponent's armpit, which might perhaps explain why it looks like I'm looking at my hand rather than beyond. As for Yu Nu, I've been taught that the application here is to deflect a downwards punch to the top of the head followed by a push to the chest and this might explain why my right hand in the photo is above my head. I am deflecting a downwards punch from his right fist to the top of my head and then pushing his right chest with my left palm. I'm not aware of having different finger positions in the two hands but will think about that. If the comment applies just to Yu Nu rather than being a general one, I guess the reason might be to do with the fact that the right forearm is deflecting and twisting away upwards the downward punch while the left fingers might be more open to reflect the idea of emission of energy. As I said, there's a lot to think about here, particularly your points on She Shen Shia Shih, so I'd be grateful for some time to ponder those and then I'll get back to you after that. Thanks again, kind regards, Simon.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Audi:
<B>Hi Simon:
Here are some more comments, to try to finish up.
In my earlier post, I mistakenly typed “elbow” instead of “forearm,” where I described how we orient the left palm on the right arm in Deflect Downward Parry and Punch. I have edited the posting.
Yeh Ma Feng Tung/Part Wild Horse's Mane (left):
There are a number of aspects of your posture that are different from what we do. This makes it difficult for me to evaluate what you are doing. It seems that you have been taught to keep your spine straight, but I wonder whether your hips are still level and whether your lower spine is not bent forward towards the left arm. Basically, it seems that your upper torso is not quite centered over your pelvis.
Your intent actually seems closer to what we do, since we purposefully lean forward; however, we also have the torso less open and the right arm lower.
It is difficult to see, but it looks like your gaze is focused on your left palm, rather than further out from your body. As far as I can recall, we never or only very rarely focus the gaze directly on our own bodies.
She Shen Hsia Shih/Snake Creeps Down:
I should confess that my flexibility is not what it should be, and so I usually botch this posture; however, in my mind’s eye I imagine I can see a graceful and accurate posture. Using that posture as my guide, I will make my comments.
We do not rotate the left foot and so have different hip and knee dynamics from what you show. This makes it hard for me to evaluate the relationship between your torso and your lower body; nevertheless, there are a few minor things that I wonder about. First, it looks as if your right shoulder is open a little too far and has lost the feeling of “plucking up the back” that Serena commented on. It also seems that the direction of your right arm is rotated behind your right knee, rather than even with it, although this may be a necessary consequence of the orientation of your left foot.
The feeling I have when doing this posture is one of going down the back of a Ferris Wheel and then leaning forward slightly and shooting my left arm out. I don’t feel much of a need to twist or rotate my torso, whereas the angles of your arms and legs are different from each other and have different relationships with your torso.
Another minor point is that you seem to have lost some of the extension, energy, and intent in your left fingers.
Yu Nu Ch'uan Shu/Fair Lady Weaves at Shuttles:
I would characterize your torso as showing a slight lean here. Is that what you want? Some masters teach no lean, others teach a slight lean, and yet others teach a distinct lean. You seem to show slightly more lean here than in some of your other bow stances.
Your left shoulder looks slightly higher than the right. A separate issue is whether the left shoulder joint itself is fully “down,” which is not visible from the photo. It also appears as if you orient the right hand on the midline; whereas we keep it in line with the right shoulder. It might be that as you form the final position, the positioning of your arms and rotation of the waist makes you feel a shift to the left and a vertcal clockwise rotation that manifests in a shoulder tilt.
I cannot see from the photo, but you may also want to check whether your pelvis or hips are level. One way to check is to drop your arms into the push position of Apparent Closure and feel whether both hips and both sides of your body can manifest equal power.
One last minor thing is I wonder whether you are spacing your fingers in the same way in your hands. Your right hand spacing seems quite narrow and definitely more than your left. I am nor sure what exactly I do, but I think I merely extend my fingers in their individual orientations to what I feel is naturally straight and make no effort either to separate them or bring them together. If you mentally orient your fingers to the straightness of your middle finger, you will have a more compact arrangement. If you go further and approximate some sort of pre-defined shape, you may have an even more compact shape.
Wen Kung She Hu/Bend Bow to Shoot Tiger:
This posture is much more difficult than it might seem. I have been working hard it over the last couple of years and may finally be getting it into decent shape.
In your posture, the first thing you should consider is your stance. The line of your right foot improperly bisects your left foot. My guess is that your right thigh is trying to find the true angle and that your right foot should take that line. Similarly, I suspect that your pelvis is tilted, that your right hip is higher than the left, and that your torso is leaning left into your strike. Correcting your footwork might clear up everything.
In our form, the application we show is a double punch. If you are showing the same, your right fist has an unusual orientation. We have the right fist in approximately the same position as the right palm in Fan through the Back. The back of the fist faces the temple, and the face of the fist faces forward in the same direction as the left fist.
We also orient our left fist lower than usual, below the shoulder rather than even with it. Your left fist seems even with your eyes. The application I envision is pulling the opponent from left to right from the end of Turn the Body and Sweep the Lotus. You then continue the pulling action into a vertical circle and punch to the opponent’s temple or face and to his or her ribs or body.
You may also want to check your left fist. It almost looks as if you are making the top two knuckles prominent, rather than having the face of the fist even. This might also result if you are trying to do a level punch, but at the level of your eyes. Doing this requires some compromise between the angle of your wrist, the face of the fist, and the levelness of the eye of the fist.
As I look again at your torso, I wonder if the lean is due to more than your footwork. You appear to be stretching toward your left fist intentionally. It could be that you enter the final position by vertically circling your torso under the influence of the arm circle or perhaps in an attempt to get more power into your hands. Such an intent would tend to throw your upper body to the left and your hips to the right.
As I understand it, we begin the posture with the navel facing square to the east. We then rotate the navel to the southeast corner as the right foot flattens from heel to ball and the arms swing down from extreme left and up to extreme right. We then complete the circle and rotate the navel back square to the east as the right knee is fully bent. This rotation throws the arms into an upward arc to complete their circles and provides most of the power behind the punches. By the way, we also lean in this posture, but toward the southeast corner in line with the right foot. When I do the posture with Fajin, I feel no inclination at all to lean into the punches or stretch toward the left fist. Also, the circle of the left fist ends in a very tight or small arc, producing a very sudden and quick punch unlike the other ones in the form.
I hope all this helps.
Take care,
Audi</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi Simon,
Regards,
Audi
I am confused about your comments. Are you perhaps mixing up Yu Nu with Bend the Bow and Shoot the Tiger?<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">As for Yu Nu, I've been taught that the application here is to deflect a downwards punch to the top of the head followed by a push to the chest and this might explain why my right hand in the photo is above my head. I am deflecting a downwards punch from his right fist to the top of my head and then pushing his right chest with my left palm. I'm not aware of having different finger positions in the two hands but will think about that. If the comment applies just to Yu Nu rather than being a general one, I guess the reason might be to do with the fact that the right forearm is deflecting and twisting away upwards the downward punch while the left fingers might be more open to reflect the idea of emission of energy.</font>
Regards,
Audi
-
Simon Batten
- Posts: 153
- Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:01 am
- Location: Brighton, East Sussex, England
Audi: yes, you're quite right. I said there was a lot to take in and in making too hasty a reply I referred myself back to the wrong paragraph of your message so took the comments there to refer the Yu Nu which of course you went into in the previous paragraph. A bad habit of mine, I'm afraid -speed reading (not always accurate). As I said, though, I'll give more thought to your comments and get back to you on them later. Kind regards, Simon.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Audi:
<B>Hi Simon,
I am confused about your comments. Are you perhaps mixing up Yu Nu with Bend the Bow and Shoot the Tiger?
Regards,
Audi</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Audi:
<B>Hi Simon,
I am confused about your comments. Are you perhaps mixing up Yu Nu with Bend the Bow and Shoot the Tiger?
Regards,
Audi</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
-
Simon Batten
- Posts: 153
- Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:01 am
- Location: Brighton, East Sussex, England
Audi: In fact, I hadn't speed-read what you said and misreferred myself to the wrong paragraph on Yu Nu. This is the paragraph from your message that I was thinking about in my immediate response: 'Yu Nu Ch'uan Shu/Fair Lady Weaves at Shuttles:
I would characterize your torso as showing a slight lean here. Is that what you want? Some masters teach no lean, others teach a slight lean, and yet others teach a distinct lean. You seem to show slightly more lean here than in some of your other bow stances.
Your left shoulder looks slightly higher than the right. A separate issue is whether the left shoulder joint itself is fully “down,” which is not visible from the photo. It also appears as if you orient the right hand on the midline; whereas we keep it in line with the right shoulder.'
It was your last sentence to which I was referring in my reply, when I said I had been taught that the right hand is deflecting a downward punch to the top of the head, which is why it probably looks central in the photo: it's a reflection of the application in mind. I'm still thinking about your other observations and will write back soon. In fact what I probably need to do is print off a copy of your message and take it out with me when I practice. I can then try out your suggestions and see how they 'feel' - often the best guide. Thanks again. Kind regards, Simon.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Audi:
<B>Hi Simon,
I am confused about your comments. Are you perhaps mixing up Yu Nu with Bend the Bow and Shoot the Tiger?
Regards,
Audi</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would characterize your torso as showing a slight lean here. Is that what you want? Some masters teach no lean, others teach a slight lean, and yet others teach a distinct lean. You seem to show slightly more lean here than in some of your other bow stances.
Your left shoulder looks slightly higher than the right. A separate issue is whether the left shoulder joint itself is fully “down,” which is not visible from the photo. It also appears as if you orient the right hand on the midline; whereas we keep it in line with the right shoulder.'
It was your last sentence to which I was referring in my reply, when I said I had been taught that the right hand is deflecting a downward punch to the top of the head, which is why it probably looks central in the photo: it's a reflection of the application in mind. I'm still thinking about your other observations and will write back soon. In fact what I probably need to do is print off a copy of your message and take it out with me when I practice. I can then try out your suggestions and see how they 'feel' - often the best guide. Thanks again. Kind regards, Simon.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Audi:
<B>Hi Simon,
I am confused about your comments. Are you perhaps mixing up Yu Nu with Bend the Bow and Shoot the Tiger?
Regards,
Audi</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>