Watching a Youtube clip of Yang Zhen Duo, I noticed something about Fan Through Back I've never seen before.
I've tried it and I like it, so I thought I'd share it and see if others were as in the dark as I was (not unusual, let me assure you).
Pay strict attention to the clip from 2:22 to 2:32. His right arm in particular, how it moves out slightly with the left arm contact, then circles in then back out to the end of the form.
I will withhold comment until I've had a chance to play with this a lot and work on it.
I'm sure everyone else has noticed this and been taught correctly, as I'm equally sure I have been many times.
I just wasn't ready to see or hear it until now, I guess.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCOPQIfp ... re=related
Fan Through Back
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Bob Ashmore
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Louis Swaim
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Bob Ashmore
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Louis,
I noticed! But it's the first time I've noticed.
We're just now getting near to Fan Through Back in our details class, so I've been watching a lot of videos of that section of the form by various folks (Yang Zhen Ji, Yang Zhen Duo, Yang Jun, Han Hoong Wong) and in this clip that bit of Ji just jumped out at me. I hadn't caught it before now, though as I read my seminar notes Yang Jun clearly mentioned it at least twice, I wrote it down and then promptly forgot about it.
This particular clip is very clear on this and is shot from an excellent angle to see it all the more clearly.
Now I see it in all of the clips but I sure hadn't before.
The more you know... etc., etc.
The circling back after the hands seperate is sort of tricky and I'm going to pay particular attention to that aspect when Bill shows us the "detail" because I'm sure I'm not getting that right.
I noticed! But it's the first time I've noticed.
We're just now getting near to Fan Through Back in our details class, so I've been watching a lot of videos of that section of the form by various folks (Yang Zhen Ji, Yang Zhen Duo, Yang Jun, Han Hoong Wong) and in this clip that bit of Ji just jumped out at me. I hadn't caught it before now, though as I read my seminar notes Yang Jun clearly mentioned it at least twice, I wrote it down and then promptly forgot about it.
This particular clip is very clear on this and is shot from an excellent angle to see it all the more clearly.
Now I see it in all of the clips but I sure hadn't before.
The more you know... etc., etc.
The circling back after the hands seperate is sort of tricky and I'm going to pay particular attention to that aspect when Bill shows us the "detail" because I'm sure I'm not getting that right.
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Louis Swaim
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Louis Swaim
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Greetings Bob,
It’s sometimes useful to think of the form as bare hints at applications, the initial movements of applications or, as I said, the follow-through of an application—this in distinction from considering the solo form movements as having the explicit contours of applications.
I’ve long been interested in this instance of ji in the commencement of Fan Through Back. It shares some elements with the ji that occurs in the transition from Lift Hands Upward to White Crane Displays wings, but when considered from an application standpoint, I think the ji in Fan Through Back would look rather different in use than it does in the form. Suppose, for example, that you are in the Needle at Sea Bottom posture/scenario, and your opponent manages to maintain a grasp on your wrist with one hand, and compress your arm above the elbow with the other hand—joint-locking your right arm and potentially unbalancing you. If you apply ji with the edge of your left palm to your right forearm, you will be able to counter the joint lock, and at the same time establish a trajectory directly from your centerline to that of your opponent. In the solo form, of course, the ji emerges just a bit later than it would in the scenario just described. In the form it appears when your posture has already become more upright. That’s why I characterize it as the follow-through of ji.
What do you think?
Take care,
Louis
It’s sometimes useful to think of the form as bare hints at applications, the initial movements of applications or, as I said, the follow-through of an application—this in distinction from considering the solo form movements as having the explicit contours of applications.
I’ve long been interested in this instance of ji in the commencement of Fan Through Back. It shares some elements with the ji that occurs in the transition from Lift Hands Upward to White Crane Displays wings, but when considered from an application standpoint, I think the ji in Fan Through Back would look rather different in use than it does in the form. Suppose, for example, that you are in the Needle at Sea Bottom posture/scenario, and your opponent manages to maintain a grasp on your wrist with one hand, and compress your arm above the elbow with the other hand—joint-locking your right arm and potentially unbalancing you. If you apply ji with the edge of your left palm to your right forearm, you will be able to counter the joint lock, and at the same time establish a trajectory directly from your centerline to that of your opponent. In the solo form, of course, the ji emerges just a bit later than it would in the scenario just described. In the form it appears when your posture has already become more upright. That’s why I characterize it as the follow-through of ji.
What do you think?
Take care,
Louis
A good point!
I realize there are many variation of posture exposition within Yang shi taijiquan but function/application will determine how 'Fan to Back' is used.
From the way I learned that posture, after 'needle at sea bottom' (I am in a medium squat position depending on how low I go), as I raise up to start 'Fan to Back', my rear right is in a 35-50 degree angle so as I start positioning, same rear start to assume a 45-90 degree angle with outward upward placement with hands to posture final position.
I can push up or over depending on how the opponent is reaching or use rear leg positioning to turn away, extending left leg to perhaps apply an oblique! fan to side or jam the forearm with the right hand actually applying the lock!
Just another way usinng the same principle!
I realize there are many variation of posture exposition within Yang shi taijiquan but function/application will determine how 'Fan to Back' is used.
From the way I learned that posture, after 'needle at sea bottom' (I am in a medium squat position depending on how low I go), as I raise up to start 'Fan to Back', my rear right is in a 35-50 degree angle so as I start positioning, same rear start to assume a 45-90 degree angle with outward upward placement with hands to posture final position.
I can push up or over depending on how the opponent is reaching or use rear leg positioning to turn away, extending left leg to perhaps apply an oblique! fan to side or jam the forearm with the right hand actually applying the lock!
Just another way usinng the same principle!
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Bob Ashmore
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Louis,
I think I see where you're going with that. It does make sense for the scenario.
The scenario I was picturing after noticing this Ji actually goes more towards the "squeeze" aspect of Press.
I was picturing a scenario of the opponent maintaining contact with his right wrist holding mine and his left arm compressing my right elbow after NAS. As I rise I apply Ji (squeeze) to his right wrist with my left palm causing his wrist to stay in place against my wrist while turning my whole right arm, forcing his arm to turn, raising his shoulder and taking him off balance. Then grasping his right wrist with my left hand, I seperate/open, using the waist turn, the opening of my chest and forward thrust of my legs to pluck his right arm forward off of my wrist and further unbalance him. My left arm simultaneously opens to the back, circling in slightly then back out with the waist turn, opening my opponents arms to what I hope will be an uncomfortable degree.
I maintain contact and then apply Turn Body, which pulls him even further off balance while crossing his arms in front of him, keeping him under control, and then there are many, many potentially nasty things that can be applied against him at that point.
This, of course, is a "fantasy fight" scenario, though I do believe it would work.
In fact, I've practiced this with my push hands partner and it seems to work out quite nicely.
The chances of this working against a trained opponent are probably slim, many ways to counter, but against the average bear it would probably be quite effective.
Bob
I think I see where you're going with that. It does make sense for the scenario.
The scenario I was picturing after noticing this Ji actually goes more towards the "squeeze" aspect of Press.
I was picturing a scenario of the opponent maintaining contact with his right wrist holding mine and his left arm compressing my right elbow after NAS. As I rise I apply Ji (squeeze) to his right wrist with my left palm causing his wrist to stay in place against my wrist while turning my whole right arm, forcing his arm to turn, raising his shoulder and taking him off balance. Then grasping his right wrist with my left hand, I seperate/open, using the waist turn, the opening of my chest and forward thrust of my legs to pluck his right arm forward off of my wrist and further unbalance him. My left arm simultaneously opens to the back, circling in slightly then back out with the waist turn, opening my opponents arms to what I hope will be an uncomfortable degree.
I maintain contact and then apply Turn Body, which pulls him even further off balance while crossing his arms in front of him, keeping him under control, and then there are many, many potentially nasty things that can be applied against him at that point.
This, of course, is a "fantasy fight" scenario, though I do believe it would work.
In fact, I've practiced this with my push hands partner and it seems to work out quite nicely.
The chances of this working against a trained opponent are probably slim, many ways to counter, but against the average bear it would probably be quite effective.
Bob
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Louis Swaim
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Bob and Shudgenla,
I’ve seen a number of possible scenarios for the whole sequence of forms from Needle at Sea Bottom, through the press transition, Fan Through Back, and Turn Body/Strike. There are certainly no fixed applications. As for the ji, I think some of the dynamics for that can be seen in Da Lu.
--Louis
I’ve seen a number of possible scenarios for the whole sequence of forms from Needle at Sea Bottom, through the press transition, Fan Through Back, and Turn Body/Strike. There are certainly no fixed applications. As for the ji, I think some of the dynamics for that can be seen in Da Lu.
--Louis
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Bob Ashmore
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Louis,
Certainly, there are an infinite number of apps for each and every form in the lexicon. This is just one of the "fantasy scenarios" that I run through in my head to give myself a sense of opponent while practicing forms. I have quite a few for this app, but this one is my favorite I think.
Bob
Certainly, there are an infinite number of apps for each and every form in the lexicon. This is just one of the "fantasy scenarios" that I run through in my head to give myself a sense of opponent while practicing forms. I have quite a few for this app, but this one is my favorite I think.
Bob
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Simon Batten
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Bob: this is an interesting discussion to which I probably can't contribute a great deal, and once again, apologies for being away for a while (please see my replies on the weapons section re: sword for an explanation ...). All I think I can usefully say is that I was taught that NASB corresponds to a situation where supposing your right hand strike in Lu Shi Au Bu is thwarted by the opponent grabbing your wrist, then you use sinking energy and drop down to unbalance the opponent or fall out of his grasp, while your hand sweeps aside a potential kick from his right foot. Then supposing he recovers and attempts to hit you with a downward blow to the top of your head with his right fist, you block that upwards with your right forearm while stepping forwards to press or strike his upper right chest with your left palm. In other words, the block is right to right, unlike Fair Lady where I was taught that the right block is to his left strike from above and the press is also to his left side. Kind regards, Simon.
Greetings all,
Bob, I think that your scenarios are absolutely legitimate, but I am not sure I am yet sold on interpreting the Fan Through the Back motion as an expression of Ji. As I look at Yang Zhenduo's motion, it seems to be that the slight rightward movement of his arms could also be justified as counterbalancing the coming movement of his left foot, as it stretches forward. I do not recall this ever being mentioned in the case of Fan through the Back, but I do remember him advising such a counterbalancing movement in preparation for Flying Diagonal.
Another doubt I have is whether merely pressing the left palm on the right wrist could be characterized as "ji" in normal Chinese. Hopefully those with more Chinese than I have will correct me if I am wrong, but I understand the core meaning of "ji3" to refer to "squeezing/crowding out," and not merely to "pressing on" or "holding down" something. For this latter meaning, I think of "ya1." I also do not think of "ji" as referring to "pinching" or "sandwiching" something, for which the word "jia1" comes to mind. Again, I could be wrong about these distinctions.
Another doubt I have, but am not sure of, is that I think of the basic Jins as referring more to the overall effect on an opponent rather than to the effect on a localized part of the opponent's body. With this way of thinking, merely pinning the opponent's hand to your wrist, would not be enough to qualify as an expression of Ji.
I do not mean to say by my comments that the movement could not be an expression of Ji, but only that sandwiching the opponent's hand or even pushing it to the side might not be sufficient to constitute Ji. At the moment, I think of Ji as referring to any movement (primarily of the hands and arms) that makes the opponent feel squeezed out of his or her attack/defense space. I believe you could do that in the transition before Fan Through the Back, but I think that is not the primary application that the Association shows in its form.
Take care,
Audi
Bob, I think that your scenarios are absolutely legitimate, but I am not sure I am yet sold on interpreting the Fan Through the Back motion as an expression of Ji. As I look at Yang Zhenduo's motion, it seems to be that the slight rightward movement of his arms could also be justified as counterbalancing the coming movement of his left foot, as it stretches forward. I do not recall this ever being mentioned in the case of Fan through the Back, but I do remember him advising such a counterbalancing movement in preparation for Flying Diagonal.
Another doubt I have is whether merely pressing the left palm on the right wrist could be characterized as "ji" in normal Chinese. Hopefully those with more Chinese than I have will correct me if I am wrong, but I understand the core meaning of "ji3" to refer to "squeezing/crowding out," and not merely to "pressing on" or "holding down" something. For this latter meaning, I think of "ya1." I also do not think of "ji" as referring to "pinching" or "sandwiching" something, for which the word "jia1" comes to mind. Again, I could be wrong about these distinctions.
Another doubt I have, but am not sure of, is that I think of the basic Jins as referring more to the overall effect on an opponent rather than to the effect on a localized part of the opponent's body. With this way of thinking, merely pinning the opponent's hand to your wrist, would not be enough to qualify as an expression of Ji.
I do not mean to say by my comments that the movement could not be an expression of Ji, but only that sandwiching the opponent's hand or even pushing it to the side might not be sufficient to constitute Ji. At the moment, I think of Ji as referring to any movement (primarily of the hands and arms) that makes the opponent feel squeezed out of his or her attack/defense space. I believe you could do that in the transition before Fan Through the Back, but I think that is not the primary application that the Association shows in its form.
Take care,
Audi
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Bob Ashmore
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Hope you all will forgive my brief absence from the discussion, the flu bug finally caught up with me last week.
My only consolation is that I was the last one here to get it and only caught it after I was continuously surrounded by contagious people who don't seem to understand the concept of having "sick days" for a reason and so came to work coughing and hacking and sneezing right at me, for over two straight weeks before I finally succumbed.
I was laid low early Friday morning and only got back on my feet today, Tuesday.
This is one nasty, nasty bug.
Simon,
Good scenario. One that I've seen demoed before.
Audi,
Isn't one aspect of Ji, "squeeze"? Like squeezing the toothpaste out of a tube?
I seem to recall Ji being described by one of the Wu's (might have been in the Gold Book, but my brain isn't up to the task of exact recall at this time) as being like the rollers of a dough machine, squeezing the dough between them and pressing them out the other side.
Using that aspect, I picture the Ji in this movement as being utilized in one manner to grasp the opponents hand and control it by squeezing it between my palm and forearm using the bow of my rounded arms, sunken chest and raised back.
I don't think of this as a permanent solution, more like a momentary stage in between other actions. Setting up for application of Chin Na maybe, or simply transferring that control to a simple grasp with my right hand while my left performs some other action.
Best I can do until my faculties are back up to full operating standards.
Right now, my eight cylinder engine is only firing on about five cylinders at best...
My only consolation is that I was the last one here to get it and only caught it after I was continuously surrounded by contagious people who don't seem to understand the concept of having "sick days" for a reason and so came to work coughing and hacking and sneezing right at me, for over two straight weeks before I finally succumbed.
I was laid low early Friday morning and only got back on my feet today, Tuesday.
This is one nasty, nasty bug.
Simon,
Good scenario. One that I've seen demoed before.
Audi,
Isn't one aspect of Ji, "squeeze"? Like squeezing the toothpaste out of a tube?
I seem to recall Ji being described by one of the Wu's (might have been in the Gold Book, but my brain isn't up to the task of exact recall at this time) as being like the rollers of a dough machine, squeezing the dough between them and pressing them out the other side.
Using that aspect, I picture the Ji in this movement as being utilized in one manner to grasp the opponents hand and control it by squeezing it between my palm and forearm using the bow of my rounded arms, sunken chest and raised back.
I don't think of this as a permanent solution, more like a momentary stage in between other actions. Setting up for application of Chin Na maybe, or simply transferring that control to a simple grasp with my right hand while my left performs some other action.
Best I can do until my faculties are back up to full operating standards.
Right now, my eight cylinder engine is only firing on about five cylinders at best...
Hi Bob,
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>Isn't one aspect of Ji, "squeeze"? Like squeezing the toothpaste out of a tube?
I seem to recall Ji being described by one of the Wu's (might have been in the Gold Book, but my brain isn't up to the task of exact recall at this time) as being like the rollers of a dough machine, squeezing the dough between them and pressing them out the other side.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree with all these descriptions, but notice that the meanings include a sense of "extracting" or rearranging how the relevant space is occupied. Another good description of part of what "ji" covers is "jostle" or "crowd out."
Take care,
Audi
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>Isn't one aspect of Ji, "squeeze"? Like squeezing the toothpaste out of a tube?
I seem to recall Ji being described by one of the Wu's (might have been in the Gold Book, but my brain isn't up to the task of exact recall at this time) as being like the rollers of a dough machine, squeezing the dough between them and pressing them out the other side.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree with all these descriptions, but notice that the meanings include a sense of "extracting" or rearranging how the relevant space is occupied. Another good description of part of what "ji" covers is "jostle" or "crowd out."
The way you describe "squeezing" in this paragraph does not include any element of "extracting" or rearranging the space; in fact, you are squeezing to preserve the spatial relationships. I think these are good tactics, but may not be part of what we call "ji."<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Using that aspect, I picture the Ji in this movement as being utilized in one manner to grasp the opponents hand and control it by squeezing it between my palm and forearm using the bow of my rounded arms, sunken chest and raised back.</font>
Take care,
Audi
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Bob Ashmore
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