A number of forms are repeated, but sometimes they follow different forms and require fudging in the transitions. What are your fudges, and what do you think about them?
One such movement is Pull Back. Pull Back in Grasp Bird’s Tail follows Right Ward Off where the right arm is in front of the left hand. The right arm simply rotates in slightly to begin Pull Back. Pull Back in Embrace Tiger, Return to Mountain follows Right Brush Knee where the right hand is by the right kua. The right arm/hand has to make a rather large arc until it is above the left arm/hand at the beginning of this Pull Back. This right arc movement has to be performed relatively quickly to “catch up” with the left hand.
Another fudging example is Right Ward Off. Right Ward Off in Grasp Bird’s Tail follows Left Ward Off where the right hand is by the right kua. To transition to Right Ward Off the right hand scoops in with the arm slightly rotating out so that the palm is in front of the abdomen facing upward to the left palm.
Right Ward Off in Step Up, Grasp Bird’s Tail follows the punch in Advance Step, Deflect, Parry, and Punch where the right fist is chest high. To transition to Right Ward Off, the right palm needs to loop back in an arc to be in front of the abdomen under the left palm. Again, the movement needs to speed up in order to be in the proper position relative to the left palm.
Other repeating forms with transitions from different forms have less awkward transitions: Repulse Monkey’s transitions from Fist under Elbow or Right Golden Rooster, Lift Hands’ transitions from Single Whip or Flying Diagonal.
One more fudge move: When performing Cloud Hands, the right foot lands (on tip of foot) with the right heel by the left heel where their distance is less than that between the tips of the feet. However, in anticipation of the following Single Whip, I have been taught that on the last Cloud Hand the right foot lands pretty much parallel with the left foot – again, a fudge move.
Your fudge moves may be different, but my guess is that your frame incorporates fudge moves. As long as our fudge moves do not violate basic Taijiquan principles, we do what we need to do, right?
Fudging Moves
Hi Peixiong,
As for "fudge" moves, I am not quite sure what you are implying. I would agree that the traditional form has a few transitions that do not have specific martial applications on the surface; however, I am not sure that I would pick the ones you have described.
For all the moves you describe, I have been taught to think in opposites. For instance, in order to do an application to the right, I must start it to the left. For me, these are not "fudges" but integral parts of the movement.
I think by "Pull Back" you are describing what I know as Rollback (i.e., Lu). For me, this application begins the instant Ward Off Right concludes with a movement to the right. This is because I want to finish with a movement to the left. It is more than the "right arm simply rotat[ing] in slightly." In Embrace Tiger, Return to Mountain, the arc you describe can be thought of as a connection movement meant to follow the opponent's movement. This arcing connection can then smoothly continue into Rollback in a motion similar to paddling on the left side of a canoe. The right arm goes up, forward, down, back, and left in a circular motion.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>Another fudging example is Right Ward Off. Right Ward Off in Grasp Bird’s Tail follows Left Ward Off where the right hand is by the right kua. To transition to Right Ward Off the right hand scoops in with the arm slightly rotating out so that the palm is in front of the abdomen facing upward to the left palm.
Right Ward Off in Step Up, Grasp Bird’s Tail follows the punch in Advance Step, Deflect, Parry, and Punch where the right fist is chest high. To transition to Right Ward Off, the right palm needs to loop back in an arc to be in front of the abdomen under the left palm. Again, the movement needs to speed up in order to be in the proper position relative to the left palm.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In both of these moves, I have been taught to do an unnamed left wardoff and pluck that corresponds to what you are describing as a scoop or loop with the right arm. In other words, the arms move in matched opposite spirals, and neither moves faster than the other. Even the orientation of the palms and fist have a matched change in orientation.
Take care,
Audi
[This message has been edited by Audi (edited 11-30-2008).]
I am not sure I follow your description exactly. Are you saying that when you do Cloud Hands your feet are not parallel until the transition into Singly Whip? Shouldn't be the other way around?<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">One more fudge move: When performing Cloud Hands, the right foot lands (on tip of foot) with the right heel by the left heel where their distance is less than that between the tips of the feet. However, in anticipation of the following Single Whip, I have been taught that on the last Cloud Hand the right foot lands pretty much parallel with the left foot – again, a fudge move.</font>
As for "fudge" moves, I am not quite sure what you are implying. I would agree that the traditional form has a few transitions that do not have specific martial applications on the surface; however, I am not sure that I would pick the ones you have described.
For all the moves you describe, I have been taught to think in opposites. For instance, in order to do an application to the right, I must start it to the left. For me, these are not "fudges" but integral parts of the movement.
I think by "Pull Back" you are describing what I know as Rollback (i.e., Lu). For me, this application begins the instant Ward Off Right concludes with a movement to the right. This is because I want to finish with a movement to the left. It is more than the "right arm simply rotat[ing] in slightly." In Embrace Tiger, Return to Mountain, the arc you describe can be thought of as a connection movement meant to follow the opponent's movement. This arcing connection can then smoothly continue into Rollback in a motion similar to paddling on the left side of a canoe. The right arm goes up, forward, down, back, and left in a circular motion.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>Another fudging example is Right Ward Off. Right Ward Off in Grasp Bird’s Tail follows Left Ward Off where the right hand is by the right kua. To transition to Right Ward Off the right hand scoops in with the arm slightly rotating out so that the palm is in front of the abdomen facing upward to the left palm.
Right Ward Off in Step Up, Grasp Bird’s Tail follows the punch in Advance Step, Deflect, Parry, and Punch where the right fist is chest high. To transition to Right Ward Off, the right palm needs to loop back in an arc to be in front of the abdomen under the left palm. Again, the movement needs to speed up in order to be in the proper position relative to the left palm.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In both of these moves, I have been taught to do an unnamed left wardoff and pluck that corresponds to what you are describing as a scoop or loop with the right arm. In other words, the arms move in matched opposite spirals, and neither moves faster than the other. Even the orientation of the palms and fist have a matched change in orientation.
Take care,
Audi
[This message has been edited by Audi (edited 11-30-2008).]
I do not necessarily believe in such a concept as 'fudging a move' but I do believe you need to adapt and try to improvise while still keeping your head.
What I mean to say is that if you try to set up a throw with Yun shou and that fails, you had better initiate some other strategy or else you would not have learnt the lesson of following while retreating and moving forward/or durecting when feasible.
If one does taolu only and you fudge a move, then as a performance art, points are deducted and you stay at that reference point without utilization or knowledge of the function!
What I mean to say is that if you try to set up a throw with Yun shou and that fails, you had better initiate some other strategy or else you would not have learnt the lesson of following while retreating and moving forward/or durecting when feasible.
If one does taolu only and you fudge a move, then as a performance art, points are deducted and you stay at that reference point without utilization or knowledge of the function!
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JerryKarin
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I don't really consider those small adaptations in context to be fudge moves. For example the rollback after the brush knee move in Grasp Tiger Return to Mountain. Yang Zhenduo instructs that the right hand must lift up and circle. There is no sense of anything extraneous or fudged here. The circling motion makes perfect sense and could be regarded as the larger, or fuller, application of rollback. There are some right hand moves with the straight sword which are very similar to this, like Shoot Goose...
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Yin Peixiong
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The intent of my post is to clarify:
ming guiju er shou guiju;
tuo guiju er he guiju
or
Understand the principles to adhere to the rules;
Deviate from the rules yet in harmony with the principles
I think Shugdenla’s post resonates with this quote: the need to adapt and to improvise within Taijiquan principles. But what are the principles in question when practicing the frame?
Several authoritative books suggest that our practice should concentrate on loosened (song), stable (wen), slow (man), and uniform (yun). I think yun includes “when one part moves, all parts move; when one part is still, all parts are still”. yun also means smooth, rounded moves where the movement speed is constant.
My examples of Roll Back and Right Ward Off with different starting positions violate the rule of performing at constant speed. The two arms/hands in Right Ward Off from Step Up, Grasp Bird’s Tail have such a large disparity in movements that the left arm/hand is almost stationery while the right arm/hand moves, thereby almost violating “when one part moves…”.
So I agree it’s necessary to adapt (or fudge or bend the rules), but what are the central Taijiquan principles that guide these adaptations?
ming guiju er shou guiju;
tuo guiju er he guiju
or
Understand the principles to adhere to the rules;
Deviate from the rules yet in harmony with the principles
I think Shugdenla’s post resonates with this quote: the need to adapt and to improvise within Taijiquan principles. But what are the principles in question when practicing the frame?
Several authoritative books suggest that our practice should concentrate on loosened (song), stable (wen), slow (man), and uniform (yun). I think yun includes “when one part moves, all parts move; when one part is still, all parts are still”. yun also means smooth, rounded moves where the movement speed is constant.
My examples of Roll Back and Right Ward Off with different starting positions violate the rule of performing at constant speed. The two arms/hands in Right Ward Off from Step Up, Grasp Bird’s Tail have such a large disparity in movements that the left arm/hand is almost stationery while the right arm/hand moves, thereby almost violating “when one part moves…”.
So I agree it’s necessary to adapt (or fudge or bend the rules), but what are the central Taijiquan principles that guide these adaptations?
It is dificult to give a standard answer but use of penglujiankaozhou and usage surely would clarify function.
Let's say you are in right peng (as in right single tuishou) and you find yourself being pushed/manipulated by force of another, the first step should be turn waist/hip apparatus but you didn't so the next step may be to raise left hand to attempt to control opponent's elbow (parry then move offsides) or introduce foot peng as in tripping/extending knees to push opponent back.
Again, this depending on how close and degree of control you have.
Further explanation:
Though I learnt the frame of Chengfu from various teachers, I have 'incorporated' through function and experimentation, a transitory movement that help with utility.
There are some teachers of Yang Shaohu who are stating that the "three rings principle" is the glue that allowed Chengfu to 'simplify' the present form choreography.
I have heard about this "three ring principle" but it was never explained to me.
Conversely, if you add it to Yang Chengfu 's choreography, you will catch some glimpse of Laojia Yang style as taught by Yang Luchan. Additionally, if you follow the lineage of those who studied with Wang Lanting, (the best student of Yang Luchan, you will get to 'feel' the skill of taijiquajn prior to Yang Chengfu.
My fudging (adaption to incorporating 3 Ring principle) is as follows:
1. wuji hands at sides, or start at qihai then move to sides.
2. qishi (raise hands, then lower to about 80% or so as opposed to all the way to end of lowered hands-too yin)
3. Turn right to right peng <B>then immediately to left peng. Similar to seesaw action. neilaogong of left facing body with right lowered. Slightly turn yao/waist/hip, then step up to left baozhang (holding ball)
This is my fudging/fudged part because it was too open and left one vilnerable.</B>
It is similar to Chen style (Buddha's arhat ponding the jewels but without the pounding but it can be functionally useful!
Let's say you are in right peng (as in right single tuishou) and you find yourself being pushed/manipulated by force of another, the first step should be turn waist/hip apparatus but you didn't so the next step may be to raise left hand to attempt to control opponent's elbow (parry then move offsides) or introduce foot peng as in tripping/extending knees to push opponent back.
Again, this depending on how close and degree of control you have.
Further explanation:
Though I learnt the frame of Chengfu from various teachers, I have 'incorporated' through function and experimentation, a transitory movement that help with utility.
There are some teachers of Yang Shaohu who are stating that the "three rings principle" is the glue that allowed Chengfu to 'simplify' the present form choreography.
I have heard about this "three ring principle" but it was never explained to me.
Conversely, if you add it to Yang Chengfu 's choreography, you will catch some glimpse of Laojia Yang style as taught by Yang Luchan. Additionally, if you follow the lineage of those who studied with Wang Lanting, (the best student of Yang Luchan, you will get to 'feel' the skill of taijiquajn prior to Yang Chengfu.
My fudging (adaption to incorporating 3 Ring principle) is as follows:
1. wuji hands at sides, or start at qihai then move to sides.
2. qishi (raise hands, then lower to about 80% or so as opposed to all the way to end of lowered hands-too yin)
3. Turn right to right peng <B>then immediately to left peng. Similar to seesaw action. neilaogong of left facing body with right lowered. Slightly turn yao/waist/hip, then step up to left baozhang (holding ball)
This is my fudging/fudged part because it was too open and left one vilnerable.</B>
It is similar to Chen style (Buddha's arhat ponding the jewels but without the pounding but it can be functionally useful!
Hi Peixong,
I do not have time to do full justice to your latest post, but did want to reply to these quotes:
I think that the first quote should not be taken literally. In a sense, it is never true. For example, consider any step. There is always a moving foot and a stationary foot that is weight bearing. One foot is moving and the other is still. On the other hand, I think this quote is an important one if understood to be referring to an internal feeling that speaks to the need for unity in the body.
As for the second quote, I would similarly say that different body parts are always moving at different rates; and yet, the overall feel can still be one of "constant speed." Consider a clock and its internal gears. To keep perfect time, the gears must harmonize perfectly, but they will be different sizes and will move at different rates.
Take care,
Audi
I do not have time to do full justice to your latest post, but did want to reply to these quotes:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>“when one part moves, all parts move; when one part is still, all parts are still”[/q]</font>
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">My examples of Roll Back and Right Ward Off with different starting positions violate the rule of performing at constant speed.</B></font>
I think that the first quote should not be taken literally. In a sense, it is never true. For example, consider any step. There is always a moving foot and a stationary foot that is weight bearing. One foot is moving and the other is still. On the other hand, I think this quote is an important one if understood to be referring to an internal feeling that speaks to the need for unity in the body.
As for the second quote, I would similarly say that different body parts are always moving at different rates; and yet, the overall feel can still be one of "constant speed." Consider a clock and its internal gears. To keep perfect time, the gears must harmonize perfectly, but they will be different sizes and will move at different rates.
Take care,
Audi
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Yin Peixiong
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- Location: CA, USA
Hi Audi,
When taking a step, the moving foot is generally leading (or is a consequence of) a change of direction of the body. As such, the stationary foot acts as a pivot. Since the foot is much longer than a point, the pivot foot does include some movement. The pace of our practice influences our perception of whether ther is movement in the foot.
There are vertical movements where the foot does not have a pivoting role, and most of these have either a raising or sinking movement of the weight-bearing leg.
But I agree with your doubt whether we can take the "when on part moves..." literally. I don't think the beginning or closing moves in the frame involve any movement of the legs. Also, it seems to me that toes and toe joints are not always explicitly involved in movements.
When taking a step, the moving foot is generally leading (or is a consequence of) a change of direction of the body. As such, the stationary foot acts as a pivot. Since the foot is much longer than a point, the pivot foot does include some movement. The pace of our practice influences our perception of whether ther is movement in the foot.
There are vertical movements where the foot does not have a pivoting role, and most of these have either a raising or sinking movement of the weight-bearing leg.
But I agree with your doubt whether we can take the "when on part moves..." literally. I don't think the beginning or closing moves in the frame involve any movement of the legs. Also, it seems to me that toes and toe joints are not always explicitly involved in movements.