Does one need push hands?

[Fred Hao]

"Is it so simple that the bird just couldn't’t push off to fly?"
This is a good point form Bamboo Leaf. If we change the sentence a little bit into "Is it so simple that the opponent just couldn't push off to ...."
If you got the experience:you can nutralize the opponent's push-off. Even if he is seemingly touching you or can push you again from the angle of on-lookers. But the opponent did confess that he could do nothing to you. The opponent is just like the bird in the hand, actually losing his balance and his motion energy is already drawn empty. After all, the person is big. it's easy to detect the wave from him. Lu-chang's skill was so high that he could do something nutralized to the bird. It is a receiving Jing to be understandable.

[The Wandering Brit]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Louis Swaim:
<B>Greetings Wandering Brit,

I must confess to often indulging in “adversity’s sweet milk,” but with Wittgenstein’s attitude that philosophy is an activity, not a theory. Moreover, when tccstudent states: "I'm not sure what to believe anymore," or Anderander says, "In my own mind - I haven't come to any conclusions," I say:

That’s a good start.

Take care,
Louis</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. Louis. As another wise man once said, 'I try not to have beliefs; I have ideas instead. They are so much easier to change...'

;> )

[bamboo leaf]

Experience is not a belief or an idea. Beliefs or ideas are mealy interoperations of a reality but not the reality its self.

Conclusions can exist when the experience is close to a held belif that an understanding can be reached, in some cases its so far above that to form one, even from a direct experience is not possible.

ideas can exist when there is no direct experience in which case the mind has nothing, not even itself that it can rely on, this can casue confusion, a teacher or guide is what is needed to help one understand what it is and is not by direct experince.




[This message has been edited by bamboo leaf (edited 10-22-2005).]

[Louis Swaim]

Greetings,

Does anyone else have any thoughts with regard to the story of the bird in the hand?

--Louis

[Louis Swaim]

By the way, for those who wish to consult and compare, there are two major redactions of the bird story that I’m aware of, and for which I can confirm the Chinese sources. One appears in Doug Wile’s _T’ai-chi Touchstones: Yang Family Secret Transmissions_, p. 101, and is a direct translation from Yang Chengfu’s 1931 _Taijiquan shiyongfa_, compiled and edited by Dong Yingjie. The second appears in T.T. Liang’s _T’ai Chi Ch’uan for Health and Self-Defense_, p. 122. Liang does not identify the source, but I’ve confirmed it to be a translation from Chen Yanlin’s _Taijiquan dao, jian, gan sanshou helun_, published in 1943. The earlier version has Yang Luchan as the subject of the story, while Chen Yanlin’s version has Yang Jianhou as the subject. This alone makes me wonder whether there’s an element of legend about the story. But both stories share features, including an explanation of why the bird was unable to fly from the master’s palm. In both versions the explanation was a matter of simple physics. In the earlier version, Yang Luchan even dismissed the notion that the feat was “miraculous” (shen: magical, supernatural), saying that it was the result of long practice, that's all.

Take care,
Louis

[JerryKarin]

I strongly suspect that the story is true, based on my own experiences with parakeets. I have 3 of them that fly about freely in my kitchen. One of them is quite tame and will get on my finger or shoulder. When he takes off to fly he pushes off, in effect jumping into the air as he spreads his wings. I have never tried putting him on my palm and preventing him from flying off per the story, but I imagine it would be difficult, because you need to watch and feel the bird with intense, unremitting concentration.

[Bob Ashmore]

Bamboo Leaf,
I'm not receptive to the energy, huh?
Funny, that's the same excuse given by most of the people who failed in their attempts to knock me down.
Kind of like the people who've tried to hypnotise me and then asked me to cluck like a chicken. I have told all of them the same thing, "Why on earth would I do that?"
Again, I have to ask: What possible difference does my level of "receptiveness" make?
If the technique is good, then how can it not work against anyone, anytime? And if it only works against "receptive" people, what's the use of this skill in combat?
Not being "receptive" was never mentioned up front. Nor was I ever asked if I was a "Master" in disguise beforehand. Nor was the scattered or unscattered state of my personal chi probed by anyone up front.
So, what? We're supposed to go through a checklist now before a Master can try this against us, just in case?
"Um, I will knock you down with my Third Eye!! But first, let me ask you a few questions... First, is your chi scattered? Second, are you a martial arts Master pretending not to be? Third, are you receptive to chi? Fourth, do you know how to lift up one toe and press down with the other at the same time? Oh, yes to all of them! Gee. Sorry. Can't use you. Next!"
Funny, I was watching Discovery Channel on Sunday night, and this EXACT thing came up on a show. I didn't catch the beginning of it, only the end, but the researcher had the same experience I did. He was completely unmoved by one of these "I can make you fall down just by using my chi" guys.
He didn't budge.
All the guys students were falling all over the place, but the researcher said he didn't feel a thing.
The first thing the "issuer" did when it didn't work?
You guessed it, he said, "He wasn't receptive to this type of energy."
He even had an excuse based on lifting up one toe, then the other (hence the above question), because someone who knew how to do that once nullified his ability to "issue" his chi.
Uh-huh. R-I-I-I-G-G-H-T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Look, I said it before, I've not changed my mind so I'll say it again:
Find me someone who can do this to me, on me, against me, even someone who can make my shirt rustle in a following wind, and I'll go, "OK, it's real."
I'm not against the idea. Hey, I'd LOVE to be able to do this.
I can just imagine it: I walk into a room and look at someone, raise my left toe, grab my right earlobe, shout, "Hey PRESTO!!!!", point my finger at them and off they'd go, sailing majestically into the shadows.
How cool would THAT be? I'd be the life of every party from then on. Why, I would NEVER have to by myself another drink. I could walk into any bar, worldwide, and get free drinks just by knocking down a guy with my chi.
But...
The only SMALL problem with this whole fantasy is...
I've just never seen it work in a "real" situation. Never.
Now, there was one guy who tried this on me that then wanted me to push hands with him. He cleaned my clock. He had incredibly senstive hands. I stood up against him for about three minutes, but I knew as soon as I crossed hands with him that he was better than me. I made him earn it though and by the time we were done we were laughing together and having a good time.
I hold no one any grudge over this claim. Hey, if they believe it, let 'em rock on with it. Live and let live, all that.
So I am not saying these people can't have good skills, good chi, fantastic martial arts abilities. I'm just saying that my personal experience has shown that I have yet to meet the guy who can throw me with his chi alone.
Chi, intent and his hands? You betcha. I've been thrown that way HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of times.
But you take the hands out of the equation and I'm not moving and I don't care how much you issue chi against me.
Can it be just a fingertip touch? You bet. I've been knocked flat on my keister by a single blow from a fingertip before. But the fingertip was there, it made contact with me.

Bob


[This message has been edited by Bob Ashmore (edited 10-24-2005).]

[Bob Ashmore]

Louis,
I've read Zen and the art of Archery before. A LONG time ago, but I did read it. I got it as a gag gift for X-mas one year when I first got into archery. Who knew later on I'd be searching for it again.
I remember now! I gave it to my brother to read, years and years ago, I'll see if he still has it.

I pulled my bow down off it's peg this weekend. It is in serious need of tuning. I haven't fired it in about four or five years so before I want to take it out and fire it, I want a new string, professionally installed.
It's a compound bow, so I leave that to the pros. The one time I tried to do that myself to save a few bucks, I had to buy a new bow. But I digress.
I thank you for your advice. I think I'm going to enjoy my archery more now than I did before.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Bob

[Bob Ashmore]

All,
I have tried the bird in hand thing. My wife's best friend raises birds, all kinds of birds. So when I had one in the palm of my hand one day, I thought, "How, cool! I'll give this a go."
No way!
I tried, over and over again, and while I could feel the birds push against my palm, or the back of my hand, or my wrist, clearly, I guess I just don't have the skill level to nullify it.
Those birds got into flight every time.
I did manage, from time to time, to slow them down, make them try a couple of times before they'd get there, but I never actually stopped one for very long.
I would imagine it's something you'd need to try for a LONG time to make work. Probably with the same bird, over and over again.
I've never had that much time with the birds, much less a single one of them for many tries.
But....
I walked away from trying it with the feeling that it was PROBABLE. Given a LONG time, much greater skill than mine and determination, I would say it's at least a plausability that someone could, eventually, actually do it.

Bob

[bamboo leaf]

(Its part of a complete package, think of it as the ability to really feel a movement before it manifest. With out this it would mean that by the time you physically felt something it would be to late. touching such a person you would be chasing ghost and shadows.)

I guess you must of missed what I wrote. Just as many here seem to have reduced he ability of the story to something physical none have yet to do it. If it was only the physical idea that the bird needed to press down in order to fly seems like it should be pretty easy to replicate?


(I've just never seen it work in a "real" situation. Never.
Now, there was one guy who tried this on me that then wanted me to push hands with him. He cleaned my clock. He had incredibly senstive hands. I stood up against him for about three minutes, but I knew as soon as I crossed hands with him that he was better than me. I made him earn it though and by the time we were done we were laughing together and having a good time.)

interesting story as I pushed with a guy this weekend we talked of this, I thought he was quite skilled and with a little work he could probably understand the basic concept. At one point I did try to demo something on him and he noted a movement in his own body that he could not explain. We both laughed.

Laughing to together a very cool way to practice one in which I really enjoy


david

[Bob Ashmore]

BL,
I think I picked up what your were putting down about the bird not flying being as much a chi perception thing as a physical one.
I quite agree with you, actually.
I think, at this time, of chi as being a part of any physical thing. Chi is, to me, something I can feel and touch. I direct my physical body with my mind, where my mind goes my chi goes also. They are not inseperable to me but one and the same.
Can you walk a tightrope over Niagra Falls on your first try? It is both a physical and mental thing, so people should be able to replicate it. And of course, they can, IF they practice for a long time first.
I believe I stated pretty clearly I felt the bird in the hand trick could be replicated, by anyone who has the time and patience to practice, practice, practice at it.
I did not learn the long form in a day. I had to practice for about a year before I could do it all the way through and I still have "rough spots" in my form work. Quite a few of them, actually.
This is also a "physical" thing but not one that's easy to replicate on the first try.
I have yet to meet the person who didn't have to practice a difficult skill of any kind for some time before they were adept at it.

Bob

[Bob Ashmore]

BL,
I do agree with you. Laughter is the best medicine I know.
I find myself laughing a lot, usually at myself, when I practice. If I didn't have a sense of humor, I wouldn't be doing TCC. It's hard work, and I make a lot of mistakes. Laughing at myself and with others is what makes it worthwhile.

Probably would be best not to mention what it is the Eskimos call "laughing together"...
At least not on a G rated forum like this.


Bob

[bamboo leaf]

(I think I picked up what your were putting down about the bird not flying being as much a chi perception thing as a physical one.
I quite agree with you, actually)

agreeing that a bird must push off of something to fly, it stands to reason that this can only be while the bird is on the ground not like in a tree or something that is movable.

For it to work, the bird would have to feel that the ground was dropping away while its feet told it, it did not. In other words the birds yi or mind felt no ground but its feet did. so no matter what it did in its mind it had nothing to push against and its feet would not extend or retract resting on what felt like a solid object. the birds systme would be getting conflicting signals rendering it unable to act.

I do not feel its something that one practices only a point that one arrives at, and understands that one can do it. What would be the point of the practice unless of course one really has a thing for birds. Another point of the story is that he grabbed it in flight.

Again on one level it would seem an easy thing to do, try it? My take would be that he could sense the birds yi direction or intent of flight and merely intercepted it. So while I don’t discount others ideas or suggestions of something I think the stories are intended to really tell or show something very uncommon.




[This message has been edited by bamboo leaf (edited 10-24-2005).]

[Kalamondin]

Anyone have a bird I can borrow?

FWIW, I too think it's possible and that there would even be gradations of skill--using the whole arm at first, then connecting whole body to the arm, and later subtle movements with the hand muscles but with the whole body still all one unit, and beyond that, who knows whether it's sticking power that prevents the bird from leaving, or just listening closely enough to keep removing the bird's ground from under it.

Birds are quite quick to fly away (not every bird on the ground gets caught by a stalking cat) so I think that this exercise would require listening skill honed enough to listen to the bird's initial chi shockwave (tiny and subtle)-a split second before the bird launches.

Shockwave isn't quite right because the word sounds too big--but I'm talking about the subtle wave of chi that washes through you the moment before somebody does something. It's a matter of tuning to this frequency, which I believe can be done through regular practice.

In the Scientific Basis of Energy Medicine, Oschmann writes, "Pulses of electric and magnetic energy being in the brain before any movemnt occurs." (p.226)

Also:
"It would not be surprising if the various yogic, martial arts, and contemplative practices also lead to stronger and more coherent biomagnetic fields.

"While more research is needed, the most logical explanation for amplification [of huge biomagnetic fields emmitted from the hands] is that the waves of electrical and magnetic activity from the brain are amplified as they pass through the peripheral tissues. Vibrating molecules throughout the body may become cooperatively entrained with the brain rhythms. As more and more molecules within the crystalline living matrix become vibrationally entrained, the fields get stronger.

Bodywork and other repetetive practices stuch as yoga, QiGong, tai chi, meditation, theraputic touch, etc. may gradually lead to more structural coherence (crystallinity) in the tissues, facilitating both the detection and radiation of energy fields." (Oschmann, p. 221).

So, if this is correct, more practice and one could eventually arrange the body's structural "array" well enough to listen closely enough to detect the pre-motion chi of a bird. My question is this: at that level, does one listen to the electro-magnetic/chi wave before the electrical impulses travel to the muscles of the bird? Or does one listen PRIOR to the bird's chi being mobilized to tell the muscles to move? That is to say, can one listen to the bird's intent before the bird mobilizes its chi to move its muscles?

I'm guessing the answer is yes--at the stage just prior to becoming one with the bird.

Kal

[JerryKarin]

I am very leery of all this talk about qi shockwaves and so forth. Frequently it seems to me that qi is turning into something like the old 'ether' that used to be hypothesised in western science. Turned out to be a completely superfluous concept. This is not to say that qi is superfluous, but most of the way people talk about it is superfluous. Why not just shockwave? Why do we have to mysterious it up with qi? The funny thing here is the Yangs, from whom this story comes, do not make any mystery about it: he listened and felt the bird and responded as it was about to push off. Let's face it, people want to believe in mysterious and magical things. I personally don't think it's necessary to understand what's going on in taiji.