I was told that Dan-bien has two main aplications:
- against two atackers, one in front and other coming aside
- against two punches from one front atacker
I couldn't really understand the eficiency of the application against the side atacker (defending the punch and atacking with the back of the "bic" hand).
Aplication for Dan-bien
There are many ways to use single whip and many are impractical in today's climate/atmosphere.
Many of the actual usages alternatively use hand/foot feinting with qinna, peng lu ji an kao with shuai and similar methods. It is foolish to assume someone will exhibit a technique with a hand only and expect compliance. This is not and has never been the case.
Many of the actual usages alternatively use hand/foot feinting with qinna, peng lu ji an kao with shuai and similar methods. It is foolish to assume someone will exhibit a technique with a hand only and expect compliance. This is not and has never been the case.
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psalchemist
- Posts: 619
- Joined: Wed May 21, 2003 6:01 am
Greetings ELDER, all contributers,
I find your query very interesting!
From what I have been exposed to...I can understand the attack with 'beak'...but am ALSO wondering what it's continuing purpose is when blocking with the left arm.
I too would be interested in hearing from some of the more experienced practitioners on the board concerning this posture.
In other words...Aye,Aye!!! I second this question.
Thank-you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.
I find your query very interesting!
From what I have been exposed to...I can understand the attack with 'beak'...but am ALSO wondering what it's continuing purpose is when blocking with the left arm.
I too would be interested in hearing from some of the more experienced practitioners on the board concerning this posture.
In other words...Aye,Aye!!! I second this question.
Thank-you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.
Greetings Elder,
I find that it can be confusing to talk about applications in “mixed” Taiji company. Taijiquan has “postures,” “energy techniques,” “palm methods,” “usages,” etc. All these terms cover different territory. Different people use the word “application” to cover different concepts.
I would argue that traditional Yang Style sometimes groups more than one fighting possibility within a posture, so that some postures are practiced in a way that does not correspond to anything one would do in a fighting situation. It is not hard to isolate single Whip into two different types of strikes, but I would agree that it is hard to understand it in the context of simultaneous attacks by two people.
One way to view Single Whip, which we have discussed in the past, is most easily seen out of Cloud Hands. After using your right arm to ward off the opponent’s strike upward, imagine using the Tiger’s Mouth of your right hand to pull the opponent’s right arm over your left arm and across your body. Then twist the opponent’s right arm so that his elbow comes toward your chin and upward. Hold the arm outstretched with your own arm out straight. Then step behind the opponent’s right leg and use your left arm to ward off the opponent’s body across your left thigh. Use An (Push) energy to finish him or her off, or to strike if you happen to miss the takedown.
A Chen Style variation of the above is to imagine the following. The opponent uses his or her left hand to try a palm strike against your upper body. You then use your right hand to sweep the palm strike to the right and to grab and twist the opponent’s fingers rightward and outward. You then stretch out the opponent’s arm by extending your arm out to the right, with your right fingertips pointing leftward.
I hope this helps.
Take care,
Audi
I find that it can be confusing to talk about applications in “mixed” Taiji company. Taijiquan has “postures,” “energy techniques,” “palm methods,” “usages,” etc. All these terms cover different territory. Different people use the word “application” to cover different concepts.
I would argue that traditional Yang Style sometimes groups more than one fighting possibility within a posture, so that some postures are practiced in a way that does not correspond to anything one would do in a fighting situation. It is not hard to isolate single Whip into two different types of strikes, but I would agree that it is hard to understand it in the context of simultaneous attacks by two people.
One way to view Single Whip, which we have discussed in the past, is most easily seen out of Cloud Hands. After using your right arm to ward off the opponent’s strike upward, imagine using the Tiger’s Mouth of your right hand to pull the opponent’s right arm over your left arm and across your body. Then twist the opponent’s right arm so that his elbow comes toward your chin and upward. Hold the arm outstretched with your own arm out straight. Then step behind the opponent’s right leg and use your left arm to ward off the opponent’s body across your left thigh. Use An (Push) energy to finish him or her off, or to strike if you happen to miss the takedown.
A Chen Style variation of the above is to imagine the following. The opponent uses his or her left hand to try a palm strike against your upper body. You then use your right hand to sweep the palm strike to the right and to grab and twist the opponent’s fingers rightward and outward. You then stretch out the opponent’s arm by extending your arm out to the right, with your right fingertips pointing leftward.
I hope this helps.
Take care,
Audi
All,
Audi's description, one which I have posted several times myself, can also be seen in Carry Tiger....
Another variation I discovered--don't know if it is taught by many--is that when the right hand is forming the hook--or rather is turning the opponent's right hand/arm out and over, the left hand/forearm comes up to either protect from a possible elbow strike and/or can be used for an arm lock or break.
Audi's description, one which I have posted several times myself, can also be seen in Carry Tiger....
Another variation I discovered--don't know if it is taught by many--is that when the right hand is forming the hook--or rather is turning the opponent's right hand/arm out and over, the left hand/forearm comes up to either protect from a possible elbow strike and/or can be used for an arm lock or break.
Thanks for the responses !
I mean “application”; as the fighting technique related or represented by a particular movement in TaiChi Chuan form.
As I was told, one of the dan-bien application is to fight against two opponents ( simultaneously defend and hit a front attacker and a side attacker).
The front attacker application is quite clear ( block the punch and push ).
The Side attacker application with the side “beak” hand movement has two steps:
1 - firstly, to deflect a side punch (the first circular beak hand motion)
2 - secondly, to strike the chin’s opponent with the back of the “beak” hand (the last upward and stretch movement of the beak hand).
This last movement seems to be not natural and unrealistic to me, because the opponent’s chin is far away after blocking the punch.
I mean “application”; as the fighting technique related or represented by a particular movement in TaiChi Chuan form.
As I was told, one of the dan-bien application is to fight against two opponents ( simultaneously defend and hit a front attacker and a side attacker).
The front attacker application is quite clear ( block the punch and push ).
The Side attacker application with the side “beak” hand movement has two steps:
1 - firstly, to deflect a side punch (the first circular beak hand motion)
2 - secondly, to strike the chin’s opponent with the back of the “beak” hand (the last upward and stretch movement of the beak hand).
This last movement seems to be not natural and unrealistic to me, because the opponent’s chin is far away after blocking the punch.
Hi Elder,
I think have seen and practiced variations of the form that match what you describe. I also agree with your judgment about the fact that they do not seem completely realistic. I would repeat, however, that it may not be appropriate to see the form as a string of external techniques to be practiced and internalized as is. I personally, do not see or use form in the same way I did Karate katas. I practice Taijiquan forms to understand how my body works, not to practice techniques.
In one of the association newsletters, Yang Jun should an application of Single Whip that does seem to correspond somewhat to the strike you described. First, let me say that the Yangs’ version of the form does not use the Crane’s Beak as a deflection. In fact, their form does not emphasize either the tips or the sides of the fingers. You do not “pinch” the fingers together or use them to deflect. The fingers are simply bent downward with the thumb tucked behind, and this is done only as the wrist strike is delivered.
The application shown by the newsletter began with Yang Jun’s right side facing the opponent. His left wrist was either grabbing or pressing down on the wrist of the opponent’s outstretched left arm. His left arm was crossed on top of this same arm with fingers pointing towards the opponent’s chest or throat. From this position, a wrist strike is quite natural.
Basically I see this application as being available whenever the hand, or perhaps the elbow, is used to press the opponent’s arm downward. One can then “bounce” upward with a wrist strike.
Take care,
Audi
I think have seen and practiced variations of the form that match what you describe. I also agree with your judgment about the fact that they do not seem completely realistic. I would repeat, however, that it may not be appropriate to see the form as a string of external techniques to be practiced and internalized as is. I personally, do not see or use form in the same way I did Karate katas. I practice Taijiquan forms to understand how my body works, not to practice techniques.
In one of the association newsletters, Yang Jun should an application of Single Whip that does seem to correspond somewhat to the strike you described. First, let me say that the Yangs’ version of the form does not use the Crane’s Beak as a deflection. In fact, their form does not emphasize either the tips or the sides of the fingers. You do not “pinch” the fingers together or use them to deflect. The fingers are simply bent downward with the thumb tucked behind, and this is done only as the wrist strike is delivered.
The application shown by the newsletter began with Yang Jun’s right side facing the opponent. His left wrist was either grabbing or pressing down on the wrist of the opponent’s outstretched left arm. His left arm was crossed on top of this same arm with fingers pointing towards the opponent’s chest or throat. From this position, a wrist strike is quite natural.
Basically I see this application as being available whenever the hand, or perhaps the elbow, is used to press the opponent’s arm downward. One can then “bounce” upward with a wrist strike.
Take care,
Audi
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Hans-Peter
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2002 6:01 am
- Location: Idstein Germany
Hi,
I think Audi has grasp the real sense of form's postures in the first sentences of her last post.
Concerning the usage of Dan Bian I'd like to introduce some aspects I've learned from my small frame teacher:
1. Yang form posture's name is "single" whip. It deals with one attacker. There is also a "double" whip. This one deals with two attackers.
2. The hook hand is just introduced in "single whip" posture in Yang form. But it is just a "hand form" which could be used in many other postures. So Dan Bian and hook hand not necessarily have to go hand in hand.
to 1) Image the following application: The weight is on right leg. The right hands push attackers left hand/arm down (as Audi mentions)while your left hand makes contact inside the attackers right arm. Then you step with your left foot forwar, turn waist to your left (shift attacker to left), pull or push his left arm down and hit with your right hand (probably the back of a hooked hand) upward while you shift your weight to the left leg. You can simultanouesly kick with your right leg. Now your left hand is down, your right hand is up - imagine a straight line between both hands and you'll have the shape of a "single whip". Thats the principle: from up to down from down to up - like whipping.
to2)The hook hand can do many things, in particular there are 4 jins:gou, gua, dou, tan. My teacher mentions, that e.g. Wu Tu Nan's small form doesn't show the hook in single whip. His hook hand appears first in Ti Shou Shang Shi posture. Sometimes it's better to hit with a fist upward instead of the hook hand. But if the opponent grabs your right wrist, turns it around to use a quinna technique, you can form the hook and move the fingertips towards the opponent to hit acupoints in his chest area. While benefying from the direction of his pull and the collected hard fingertips of the hook, you can hurt him very painful, although it's nearly impossible for you to apply a strike (due to the quinna grip your right hand is in).
Hope it's possible to understand what I mean.
Best regards
Peter
I think Audi has grasp the real sense of form's postures in the first sentences of her last post.
Concerning the usage of Dan Bian I'd like to introduce some aspects I've learned from my small frame teacher:
1. Yang form posture's name is "single" whip. It deals with one attacker. There is also a "double" whip. This one deals with two attackers.
2. The hook hand is just introduced in "single whip" posture in Yang form. But it is just a "hand form" which could be used in many other postures. So Dan Bian and hook hand not necessarily have to go hand in hand.
to 1) Image the following application: The weight is on right leg. The right hands push attackers left hand/arm down (as Audi mentions)while your left hand makes contact inside the attackers right arm. Then you step with your left foot forwar, turn waist to your left (shift attacker to left), pull or push his left arm down and hit with your right hand (probably the back of a hooked hand) upward while you shift your weight to the left leg. You can simultanouesly kick with your right leg. Now your left hand is down, your right hand is up - imagine a straight line between both hands and you'll have the shape of a "single whip". Thats the principle: from up to down from down to up - like whipping.
to2)The hook hand can do many things, in particular there are 4 jins:gou, gua, dou, tan. My teacher mentions, that e.g. Wu Tu Nan's small form doesn't show the hook in single whip. His hook hand appears first in Ti Shou Shang Shi posture. Sometimes it's better to hit with a fist upward instead of the hook hand. But if the opponent grabs your right wrist, turns it around to use a quinna technique, you can form the hook and move the fingertips towards the opponent to hit acupoints in his chest area. While benefying from the direction of his pull and the collected hard fingertips of the hook, you can hurt him very painful, although it's nearly impossible for you to apply a strike (due to the quinna grip your right hand is in).
Hope it's possible to understand what I mean.
Best regards
Peter
I have used the "hook hand" (starting from beginning and before actual end position) as parry with open paln (upward) wrist area as if, grabbed then if counteracted use towards chin (side spin/turn action) or to chest (middle-zhongwan). If grabbed (actual hold/prehold, then use wrist lock (middle of positioning) before actual hook endpoint.
The yang (active hand-left) is a lookout ready to push forward/keep at bay the other or serve as a feint, or set up for other(s).
The opportunities are endless an depending on scenarios.
The yang (active hand-left) is a lookout ready to push forward/keep at bay the other or serve as a feint, or set up for other(s).
The opportunities are endless an depending on scenarios.
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Hans-Peter
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2002 6:01 am
- Location: Idstein Germany
Hi Dorshugla,
they depend not only on the szenarios. In Yang style small I've had to learn, that even though the most postures have the same names (and also look pretty much like)the postures of Yang CF form, they often have different philosophy. This is very obvious espacially with Single Whip. In small frame not the left hand is the yang-hand. This is because of the fact, that Grasp sparrows tail ends with "an" - which is the backward-downward movement also shown in YCF form (weighted on the back left leg). What you have as the final forward push with both hands in YCF form (whith weight change to the front right leg)is already the beginning of "Single whip" in small frame form (where it is applied with the right = yang hand, not necessarily forward but also already to the left corner). The right hand then changes into yin-hand (e.g. to deflect something downward with "an")to become yang instantly again (which could be the upward stroke of the hand's back). The left hand serves to break the root of opponent and then as a counterpart to the whiplike upward stroke of the right hand. The right hand uses the power produced while straightening the meanwhile bend and weighted left leg).
Since this is not commonly known I guess, I just mentioned this to help the discussion forward while offering another point of view on "Single whip" posture.I absolutely agree with you, that besides different philosophies for the postures, the possible applications for "Single whip" of each style are countless.
Best regards
Peter
they depend not only on the szenarios. In Yang style small I've had to learn, that even though the most postures have the same names (and also look pretty much like)the postures of Yang CF form, they often have different philosophy. This is very obvious espacially with Single Whip. In small frame not the left hand is the yang-hand. This is because of the fact, that Grasp sparrows tail ends with "an" - which is the backward-downward movement also shown in YCF form (weighted on the back left leg). What you have as the final forward push with both hands in YCF form (whith weight change to the front right leg)is already the beginning of "Single whip" in small frame form (where it is applied with the right = yang hand, not necessarily forward but also already to the left corner). The right hand then changes into yin-hand (e.g. to deflect something downward with "an")to become yang instantly again (which could be the upward stroke of the hand's back). The left hand serves to break the root of opponent and then as a counterpart to the whiplike upward stroke of the right hand. The right hand uses the power produced while straightening the meanwhile bend and weighted left leg).
Since this is not commonly known I guess, I just mentioned this to help the discussion forward while offering another point of view on "Single whip" posture.I absolutely agree with you, that besides different philosophies for the postures, the possible applications for "Single whip" of each style are countless.
Best regards
Peter