so he finally watched the Imperial Yang videos and he will be translating them. He actually thought it looked somewhat interesting and the back weighted stance is close to the Michuan Yangjia system he teaches. It was actually a good visit. we didnt have time to watch the small frame and long fist frame on the tape.
Glad it could add to his collection.
Yang lineage and other translations
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JerryKarin
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michuan means 'secret transmission' and is a different strain from what we call chuantong 'traditional' Yang taiji, or in other words Yang Family taiji. Yangshi is often called Yang Style, and brings in pretty much every variety of Yang, though some use it to mean Yang style other than 'traditional'. Confusing, isn't it?
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Louis Swaim
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Greetings Matt,
Here is my rough translation of Chen Weiming’s Preface to the brief section on Changquan in his book. From what I can gather, what Chen documented in his book was not a “Yang family long fist form,” but something Chen sort of knitted together from something that Yang Chengfu taught him, but that was probably not a “form” in the sense we usually think of it. It may have been discrete scenarios or short sequences. In Chen’s book, this Preface is followed by a page listing movement names from the changquan taught by Yang Chengfu. Next comes a page of expanded movement names for changquan, presumably compiled by Chen. Then there are several pages of explanations for each posture/sequence, very brief and sketchy.
~~~
Taiji changquan preface by Chen Weiming
Mr. [Yang] Chengfu taught me taijiquan, then he further taught me taiji changquan [long boxing]. Within [changquan] there are a number of postures that are not present in taijiquan; the remaining [postures] are fairly similar—only the transitions throughout are different. This would indicate, therefore, that taijiquan originally had no fixed methods, nor did it have fixed forms. Taijiquan and changquan both contain peng, lu, ji, an, cai, lie, and zhou; [it] only lacks one: kaojin. I wanted to add the kao of dalu to the quan [form], but after several years of hard thinking, I was unable to get a way of linking [the postures] together. Now, inadvertently, I’ve suddenly gotten it, so that the linkages make for a perfect seemless whole; I daresay I am pleased with it. Then I took those cases where taijiquan has a left form but lacks a right, or has a right form but lacks a left, and I’ve added them in for balance. I’ve also observed what is known as the old style of taiji as transmitted by the Chen clan of Henan. This “Step back dispatch monkey,” is like a retreating form of “Brush knee twist step left and right,” and the turning of the body is especially light and lively. So I’ve also added it in, naming it “Retreat step brush knee.” All together there are 108 postures. Having taken Mr. [Yang] Chengfu’s transmitted changquan and expanded it, I do not dare speak of having invented something, but with regard to the intent of taijiquan, there is some increase, but there is no decrease; there are some changes, but there is no copying. Perhaps this can be of some help for students in their researches.
—Weiming, Winter, 1927
~~~
So, my sense of it is that this provides no clear evidence that there was a “changquan” form in the Yang family curriculum. I also see nothing in Chen Weiming’s materials that suggest the changquan was faster, slower, more or less martial, or more or less important than the received Yang taijiquan form.
If anyone knows something more or different about the changquan materials in Chen Weiming’s book, I would be interested in learning more about it.
Take care,
Louis
Here is my rough translation of Chen Weiming’s Preface to the brief section on Changquan in his book. From what I can gather, what Chen documented in his book was not a “Yang family long fist form,” but something Chen sort of knitted together from something that Yang Chengfu taught him, but that was probably not a “form” in the sense we usually think of it. It may have been discrete scenarios or short sequences. In Chen’s book, this Preface is followed by a page listing movement names from the changquan taught by Yang Chengfu. Next comes a page of expanded movement names for changquan, presumably compiled by Chen. Then there are several pages of explanations for each posture/sequence, very brief and sketchy.
~~~
Taiji changquan preface by Chen Weiming
Mr. [Yang] Chengfu taught me taijiquan, then he further taught me taiji changquan [long boxing]. Within [changquan] there are a number of postures that are not present in taijiquan; the remaining [postures] are fairly similar—only the transitions throughout are different. This would indicate, therefore, that taijiquan originally had no fixed methods, nor did it have fixed forms. Taijiquan and changquan both contain peng, lu, ji, an, cai, lie, and zhou; [it] only lacks one: kaojin. I wanted to add the kao of dalu to the quan [form], but after several years of hard thinking, I was unable to get a way of linking [the postures] together. Now, inadvertently, I’ve suddenly gotten it, so that the linkages make for a perfect seemless whole; I daresay I am pleased with it. Then I took those cases where taijiquan has a left form but lacks a right, or has a right form but lacks a left, and I’ve added them in for balance. I’ve also observed what is known as the old style of taiji as transmitted by the Chen clan of Henan. This “Step back dispatch monkey,” is like a retreating form of “Brush knee twist step left and right,” and the turning of the body is especially light and lively. So I’ve also added it in, naming it “Retreat step brush knee.” All together there are 108 postures. Having taken Mr. [Yang] Chengfu’s transmitted changquan and expanded it, I do not dare speak of having invented something, but with regard to the intent of taijiquan, there is some increase, but there is no decrease; there are some changes, but there is no copying. Perhaps this can be of some help for students in their researches.
—Weiming, Winter, 1927
~~~
So, my sense of it is that this provides no clear evidence that there was a “changquan” form in the Yang family curriculum. I also see nothing in Chen Weiming’s materials that suggest the changquan was faster, slower, more or less martial, or more or less important than the received Yang taijiquan form.
If anyone knows something more or different about the changquan materials in Chen Weiming’s book, I would be interested in learning more about it.
Take care,
Louis
Thanks for the translation Louis. I very much appreciate it. It confirms alot to me and I find it valuable.
The way I have seen recently how competition 'wushu' taijiquan in china has gotten 'out of control' with difficult movements,360 jumpings, splits, one legged balances, mixing even baguazhang and xingyiquan elements ......I wouldnt be suprised if someone from a Sports Institute there in china will dig up, revive, create a 'changquan taiji' form for competition based on whatever information is still available in the mainland.
I mean.... just mentioning something like could happen might make Jiang Jian-ye create a new video series on it next month in tai chi magazine.
[This message has been edited by mls_72 (edited 11-06-2005).]
The way I have seen recently how competition 'wushu' taijiquan in china has gotten 'out of control' with difficult movements,360 jumpings, splits, one legged balances, mixing even baguazhang and xingyiquan elements ......I wouldnt be suprised if someone from a Sports Institute there in china will dig up, revive, create a 'changquan taiji' form for competition based on whatever information is still available in the mainland.
I mean.... just mentioning something like could happen might make Jiang Jian-ye create a new video series on it next month in tai chi magazine.
[This message has been edited by mls_72 (edited 11-06-2005).]
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JerryKarin
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I found a bit of an article on the net discussing this; basically in agreement with Louis' conclusion:
也有人撰文言：“太极拳除‘十三势’套路外，尚有太极& #38271;拳，为门内少数弟子习练，门外鲜有传教，如杨Ĕ 63;太极拳家陈微明、李雅轩、崔毅士等，皆会太极长& #25331;”，我以为这种说法似亦不妥。“十三势”太极拳，早&# 26399;亦名长拳，为了区别于少林长拳，才将“长拳”二字! 293;掉，只取“八门五步”之十三势。同为杨澄甫弟子，༇ 2;微明等老师的太极长拳套路及练法各不相同，再推&# 25970;陈微明等老师的太极长拳动作名称，即可得知，ઽ 2;均为他们将平生所学融入杨澄甫传教的太极拳中昕&# 33268;，而不像家手出自杨氏家传。
Basically what he says is when you compare the changquan of Yang Chengfu's disciples, they are all different, leading us to believe that these are all the result of each disciple's lifelong study, rather than a form handed down from the Yang family.
http://www.taiji.net.cn/Article/Class20 ... /2374.html
也有人撰文言：“太极拳除‘十三势’套路外，尚有太极& #38271;拳，为门内少数弟子习练，门外鲜有传教，如杨Ĕ 63;太极拳家陈微明、李雅轩、崔毅士等，皆会太极长& #25331;”，我以为这种说法似亦不妥。“十三势”太极拳，早&# 26399;亦名长拳，为了区别于少林长拳，才将“长拳”二字! 293;掉，只取“八门五步”之十三势。同为杨澄甫弟子，༇ 2;微明等老师的太极长拳套路及练法各不相同，再推&# 25970;陈微明等老师的太极长拳动作名称，即可得知，ઽ 2;均为他们将平生所学融入杨澄甫传教的太极拳中昕&# 33268;，而不像家手出自杨氏家传。
Basically what he says is when you compare the changquan of Yang Chengfu's disciples, they are all different, leading us to believe that these are all the result of each disciple's lifelong study, rather than a form handed down from the Yang family.
http://www.taiji.net.cn/Article/Class20 ... /2374.html
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JerryKarin
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Part of an article by Pang Daming
found here: http://www.hdtaiji.com/view.asp?id=447
which includes the preface material translated by Louis above - look for section 3.
[This message has been edited by JerryKarin (edited 11-07-2005).]
found here: http://www.hdtaiji.com/view.asp?id=447
which includes the preface material translated by Louis above - look for section 3.
[This message has been edited by JerryKarin (edited 11-07-2005).]
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Gu Rou Chen
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Thanks for the link Jerry. Very interesting article.
The Wu Wenhan article points out that there were 3 forms in the Yang curriculum.
Yang Chengfu’s form is a simplified, easy to learn version. The other two were only passed down to a few of Yang Shaohou’s students, one of whom was his teacher. First place I have seen someone write so concretely about what was taken out to make up the Yang Chengfu form; he actually names the transition moves.
No surprise that it matches a Wang Yongquan form since he studied with Shaohou as well.
His point about changquan is that there is no changquan form. He suggests that Taiji used to be called Taiji changquan and later changed to just Taiji to distinguish it from changquan. The differences in the Taiji form seen between Chen Weiming and other students of Yang Chengfu are due to the prior martial arts experiences of these students.
Jeff
The Wu Wenhan article points out that there were 3 forms in the Yang curriculum.
Yang Chengfu’s form is a simplified, easy to learn version. The other two were only passed down to a few of Yang Shaohou’s students, one of whom was his teacher. First place I have seen someone write so concretely about what was taken out to make up the Yang Chengfu form; he actually names the transition moves.
No surprise that it matches a Wang Yongquan form since he studied with Shaohou as well.
His point about changquan is that there is no changquan form. He suggests that Taiji used to be called Taiji changquan and later changed to just Taiji to distinguish it from changquan. The differences in the Taiji form seen between Chen Weiming and other students of Yang Chengfu are due to the prior martial arts experiences of these students.
Jeff
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Yuri Snisarenko
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Yes, very interesting article. According to the author (Mr. Pang) some various forms/sets of Yang style (such as kuai jia - fast form, xiao jia - small form, etc.) were "designed" during its history to suit different needs and abilities of various classes of people/students. And particularly so-called Five Old 'practise ways' (lao wu lu) ¨C two kinds (two ways of practise) of 85 form (one with weighted turns, other with empty turns), 37 form taiji quan, taiji changquan, sanshou relate to what Yang Chenfu taught. Did I understand correct?
Jerry, do you know anything about the author? Is he in Yang lineage?
I was particularly impressed by the presented in the article author's observation of the two ways of practise the long form, as I mentioned ¨C with the turns on the empty leg (xu tui zhuan ti) and with the turns on the weighted leg (shi tui zhuan ti), which belong correspondingly to yin and yang. It makes sense to me, since, I think, some people may not be able to practice traditional forms with a full potential right from the start. The author also states that these so-calld yin-ability and yang ability together are taiji.
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[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 11-08-2005).]
Jerry, do you know anything about the author? Is he in Yang lineage?
I was particularly impressed by the presented in the article author's observation of the two ways of practise the long form, as I mentioned ¨C with the turns on the empty leg (xu tui zhuan ti) and with the turns on the weighted leg (shi tui zhuan ti), which belong correspondingly to yin and yang. It makes sense to me, since, I think, some people may not be able to practice traditional forms with a full potential right from the start. The author also states that these so-calld yin-ability and yang ability together are taiji.
°ËÎåʽ̫¼«ÈÓÖ·ÖΪʵÍÈתÌåºÍÐéÍÈתÌåÁ½¸öÌ×·£¬ÊµÍÈתÌåΪÒõÍÈȼܣ¬ÐéÍÈתÌåΪÑôÍÈȼܣ¬ËùνÓÐÒõÓÐÑô²ÅΪ̫¼«¡£
[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 11-08-2005).]
here is a sample of the new taijiquan I been talking about- Beijing wushu team 2005 clips- see the taijiquan ones.
http://www.polariswushu.net/Sampler.html
enjoy!!
http://www.polariswushu.net/Sampler.html
enjoy!!
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JerryKarin
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There is an article here
http://www.chinataijiquan.com/Article_S ... icleID=496
(note: very slow loading)
about a 129-move changquan form which was documented in a book in 1997. The site is apparently a reputable one and has a couple snippets of interviews of Yang Zhenduo. It's hard to know what to make of this 129 changquan form. I would like to see the book.
http://www.chinataijiquan.com/Article_S ... icleID=496
(note: very slow loading)
about a 129-move changquan form which was documented in a book in 1997. The site is apparently a reputable one and has a couple snippets of interviews of Yang Zhenduo. It's hard to know what to make of this 129 changquan form. I would like to see the book.
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Louis Swaim
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Greetings,
I wonder if wouldn’t help to think of changquan as just a generic designation, having to do with long duration over time, with the growth of strength and deepening of understanding resulting from long practice. It is mature achievement which, while based upon what has been transmitted through tradition, inevitably has an individual flavor coming from the cumulative buildup of personal experience. I am playing with some of the connotations of “chang/zhang” here, and this is admittedly speculation. This seems to jibe, however, with some of these various commentaries about what changquan is, and is not.
Comments?
Take care,
Louis
I wonder if wouldn’t help to think of changquan as just a generic designation, having to do with long duration over time, with the growth of strength and deepening of understanding resulting from long practice. It is mature achievement which, while based upon what has been transmitted through tradition, inevitably has an individual flavor coming from the cumulative buildup of personal experience. I am playing with some of the connotations of “chang/zhang” here, and this is admittedly speculation. This seems to jibe, however, with some of these various commentaries about what changquan is, and is not.
Comments?
Take care,
Louis
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JerryKarin
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Well, there definitely seem to be 2 schools of thought, one in which changquan is a form, and the other where it's basically a synonym for taijiquan. I find it hard to square the synonym concept with what Chen Weiming says in his book; also Yang Chengfu himself mentions in re solo practice "like taijiquan, changquan" as though these two are different. I think I will ask Yang Jun about this.