Yang lineage and other translations

Louis Swaim · Post by **Louis Swaim** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:33 pm

Greetings,

Any other opinions about the meaning of this word "hua2" in the source text? Jerry? Jeff? Audi?

Take care,
Louis

shugdenla · Post by **shugdenla** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:31 pm

My understanding is that 'hua2' may contain neutralizing (my kanji is way off) while still maintaining peng but diminishing the other's pushing in a 'secret' manner.
I am recalling one of my teacher's maintaining my push and still diminishing/preventing me from gaining further ground and still preventing me from furhter movement while 'leading me into emptiness'. I know the feeling but cannot duplicate nor explain properly but if you have experienced both sides, you may have an idea!

Louis Swaim · Post by **Louis Swaim** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:38 pm

Greetings s,

Re: "neutralizing"

No, that's a different hua, and a different character.

--Louis

Louis Swaim · Post by **Louis Swaim** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:57 am

This is the hua character I'm referring to: »¬.

--Louis

cheefatt taichi · Post by **cheefatt taichi** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:21 am

Hi guys,

In layman terms `hua' is an act of dispersing or nullifying. Disperse/ nullify something from becoming united, focuses and strong. E.g. we can `hua' an animosity between two person by explaination and understanding so that the factors that build the animosity feeling can be dispersed and nullified. Or we can `hua' (nullify) bad karma by doing more good and collect more good karma.

In TCC context, `hua' may be described the same. We hua by dispersing the oncoming force not allowing it to be concentrated at the intended target.

Louis Swaim · Post by **Louis Swaim** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:56 am

Greetings Cheefatt,

I know the hua that you mean, the transform/disolve/disperse hua. But the word I am asking for opinions about is a different hua, »¬ appearing in the line in the Yang Forty Chapters text titled, Ba-wu shisanshi changquan jie.

--Louis

[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 11-16-2005).]

Louis Swaim · Post by **Louis Swaim** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 5:52 pm

Greetings,

Below is the full text. The hua character appears in the line, Íò²»µÃÓÐÒ»¶¨Ö®¼Ü×Ó£¬¿ÖÈÕ¾ÃÈëÓÚ»¬ÈÒ². It is expressed as an undesireable development. --Louis

°ËÎåÊ®ÈýÊÆ³¤È½â
ÔÎÄ£º×Ô¼ºÓÃ¹¦£¬Ò»ÊÆÒ»Ê½£¬ÓÃ³ÉÖ®ºó£¬ºÏÖ®Îª³¤£¬ÌÏÌÏ²»¶Ï¡£ÖÜ¶ø¸´Ê¼£¬ËùÒÔÃû³¤ÈÒ²¡£Íò²»µÃÓÐÒ»¶¨Ö®¼Ü×Ó£¬¿ÖÈÕ¾ÃÓÚ»¬ÈÒ²£»ÓÖ¿ÖÈëÓÚÓ²ÈÒ²£¬¾ö²»¿ÉÊ§ÆäÃàÈí£¬ÖÜÉíÍù¸´£¬¾«ÉñÒâÆøÖ®±¾£¬ÓÃ¾Ã×Ô È»¹áÍ¨£¬ÎÞÍù²»ÖÁ£¬ºÎ¼á²»´ÝÒ²¡£ÓÚÈË¶Ô´ý£¬ËÄÊÖµ±ÏÈÒà×Ô°ËÃÅÎå²½¶øÀ´£¬Õ¼ËÄÊÖ£¬ÊÖÊÖÄëÄ¥£¬½øÍËËÄÊÖ£¬ÖÐËÄÊÖ£¬ÉÏÏÂËÄÊÖ£¬Èý²ÅËÄÊÖ£¬ÓÉÏÂ³Ë³¤ÈËÄÊÖÆð£¬´ó¿ª´óÕ¹£¬Á·ÖÁ½ô´Õ£¬ÇüÉì×ÔÓÉÖ®¹¦£¬ÔòÉýÖ® ÖÐÉÏ³ÉÒÓ¡£

[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 11-18-2005).]

Audi · Post by **Audi** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:47 am

Greetings all,

I have some ideas about this, but do not have time to post them now. Basically, I wonder whether there might not be some justification for intepretating »¬ as "slide" and the meaning "slick" as a pun. My main doubts concern how to translate Ò»Î½Ö®»¬ and Ò»»¬Ö®Ó².

If I have time and no one beats me to it, I may venture a translation of the parts I can make out so that others can have a crack at intepreting the meaning.

Take care,
Audi

Louis Swaim · Post by **Louis Swaim** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:07 am

Greetings Audi,

Re: Ò»Î½Ö®»¬ and Ò»»¬Ö®Ó².

This is just from someone's commentary, and I think the second hua is just a typo. It should probably be a parallel statement:
Ò»Î½Ö®»¬ and Ò»Î½Ö®Ó². That is, two examples of errors that can result from allowing the forms to fall into a fixed pattern. "One is called hua (slick/facile), and one is called ying (rigid/stiff)."

Take care,
Louis

Yuri Snisarenko · Post by **Yuri Snisarenko** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:13 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Louis Swaim:
Greetings Audi,

Re: Ò»Î½Ö®»¬ and Ò»»¬Ö®Ó².

This is just from someone's commentary, and I think the second hua is just a typo. It should probably be a parallel statement:
Ò»Î½Ö®»¬ and Ò»Î½Ö®Ó². That is, two examples of errors that can result from allowing the forms to fall into a fixed pattern. "One is called hua (slick/facile), and one is called ying (rigid/stiff)."

Take care,
Louis<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Could it be "One is called hua (slick/facile), and other is stiffness (ying) of this slickness" ?
Maybe the commentator's point is that the second comes consequently as a result of hua (slickness)?

Louis Swaim · Post by **Louis Swaim** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 6:54 am

Hi Yuri,

Re: "Maybe the commentator's point is that the second comes consequently as a result of hua (slickness)?"

I tried to see this causative relationship between the two phrases too, but the grammar does not work. On the other hand, the structure, Yi wei X, Yi wei Y is a common way of writing, so I think that's what was intended in the commentary. Keep in mind also that the two conditions, hua and ying, are presented as separate results in the source text as well.

--Louis

[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 11-17-2005).]

shugdenla · Post by **shugdenla** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:46 pm

Louis,

Thanks for the correction.
I am not skilled in Chinese language and its tones so I defer to you.

Thanks again

Louis Swaim · Post by **Louis Swaim** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 6:19 pm

Greetings Shugdenla,

No problem. I welcome the discussion. Forgive me if I seem obsessive with my laser beam, but I tend to enjoy unraveling these early taiji texts.

Take care,
Louis

Anderzander · Post by **Anderzander** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:13 am

when your lazerbeams and obsession produces the books that you write nobody minds

in fact a great many people are very grateful!

Richard Man · Post by **Richard Man** » Sun Nov 20, 2005 10:08 am

Hi Louis, my Chinese is rusty and not strong to begin with, but perhaps the meaning is closer to "cunning/insincere" than slippery in this usage? I am not sure how a set form would cause any problem with that, but just a random thought.