Greetings Anderzander,
You said:
<This is only a supposition, but as the tiger image is used later within the posture "step back to ride the tiger" and therein infers a ferocious attack, perhaps the tiger symbol remains consistent here?>
Steve,
I have never heard "ferocious attack" referred to before as a description within the Taijiquan form, but find this very interesting.....
Have you any other commentary to provide on this point?
Thank-you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.
[This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 11-14-2003).]
Posture Names II
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psalchemist
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Louis Swaim
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Hi Psalchemist,
Regarding "qi hai," check out this URL:
http://www.acuxo.com/meridianPictures.a ... n%20Vessel
As for water imagery in taiji, I believe there's quite a bit of that. See, for example, the sword form names elsewhere on the Yang Family site. I'm sure there's a good deal of water imagery throughout the classical taiji literature, but specifics escape me at the moment.
Take care,
Louis
Regarding "qi hai," check out this URL:
http://www.acuxo.com/meridianPictures.a ... n%20Vessel
As for water imagery in taiji, I believe there's quite a bit of that. See, for example, the sword form names elsewhere on the Yang Family site. I'm sure there's a good deal of water imagery throughout the classical taiji literature, but specifics escape me at the moment.
Take care,
Louis
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psalchemist
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psalchemist
- Posts: 619
- Joined: Wed May 21, 2003 6:01 am
Greetings Louis,
I was inquiring a while ago about the posture "Shan Tong Bei"..."Fan through back" in conjunction with metal,perhaps a sword, I also threw in an informal phrase 'release the metal arrow'.
I can see some connections now that I couldn't before due to lack of knowledge, but have put a few pieces together recently which clarifies my queries...
This posture, in its final stages is extending the left arm forward, left foot forward etc...(releasing the jin as it were, IF one were to employ Fajin techniques through the left hand) and so to me, could possibly represent a substantially overall leftsided 'release'.
In the link you provided above, I have discovered a correlation between the meridians running down the left side of the body with the element "Metal" and the right side of the body with the element "Wood".
In the case of the predominance in Shan Tong Bei for the left side, I might consider this as a predominantly 'metal' movement.
I was reading through all the descriptions presented in this thread earlier and someone mentioned the "spokes of a wheel" in reference to the "Fan Through Back-Shan Tong Bei" posture which could possibly connote an arrow-like, even metallic gesture.
The release of an arrow would be a forward motion similarly to the stance Shan tong bei's use of Footwork skills: 'Jinbu'...(also the element 'metal')..."focussing 'yi' on jinbu point will propel the body forward"...also Jin(bu)'step forward').
Hence:
RELEASE(Fajin),the
METAL(Meridian leftside, wheel spokes, footwork element)
ARROW(spoke-like),(forward propulsion...Unsaid, in a forward direction:Jinbu 'forward' footwork skills, 'Yi' focus on jinbu pt. propels forward]
The phrase seems, at least not to violate any of the descriptions for the posture...even though it is not an official Taijiquan term...do you think it could apply to the posture in question? Or does it defy some logic I am as of yet ignorant of in the art?
Does it hold water, or is my bucket full of holes?
Thanks again for that reference, I will be studying, pondering, dissecting etc.etc.etc. for a very long time.
Thank-you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.
P.S. Is there a family style which employs "Fajin" in this posture?
I was inquiring a while ago about the posture "Shan Tong Bei"..."Fan through back" in conjunction with metal,perhaps a sword, I also threw in an informal phrase 'release the metal arrow'.
I can see some connections now that I couldn't before due to lack of knowledge, but have put a few pieces together recently which clarifies my queries...
This posture, in its final stages is extending the left arm forward, left foot forward etc...(releasing the jin as it were, IF one were to employ Fajin techniques through the left hand) and so to me, could possibly represent a substantially overall leftsided 'release'.
In the link you provided above, I have discovered a correlation between the meridians running down the left side of the body with the element "Metal" and the right side of the body with the element "Wood".
In the case of the predominance in Shan Tong Bei for the left side, I might consider this as a predominantly 'metal' movement.
I was reading through all the descriptions presented in this thread earlier and someone mentioned the "spokes of a wheel" in reference to the "Fan Through Back-Shan Tong Bei" posture which could possibly connote an arrow-like, even metallic gesture.
The release of an arrow would be a forward motion similarly to the stance Shan tong bei's use of Footwork skills: 'Jinbu'...(also the element 'metal')..."focussing 'yi' on jinbu point will propel the body forward"...also Jin(bu)'step forward').
Hence:
RELEASE(Fajin),the
METAL(Meridian leftside, wheel spokes, footwork element)
ARROW(spoke-like),(forward propulsion...Unsaid, in a forward direction:Jinbu 'forward' footwork skills, 'Yi' focus on jinbu pt. propels forward]
The phrase seems, at least not to violate any of the descriptions for the posture...even though it is not an official Taijiquan term...do you think it could apply to the posture in question? Or does it defy some logic I am as of yet ignorant of in the art?
Does it hold water, or is my bucket full of holes?
Thanks again for that reference, I will be studying, pondering, dissecting etc.etc.etc. for a very long time.
Thank-you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.
P.S. Is there a family style which employs "Fajin" in this posture?
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Louis Swaim
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- Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 7:01 am
- Location: Oakland, CA
Greetings Cary,
I’m still hoping that you’ll share some more of your findings regarding the use of the term “haidi.” In the meantime, I was able to find a passing reference to the term haidi in Chen Yanlin’s (a.k.a., Chen Gong) 1943 book on Yang style taijiquan. It’s in the section titled, “taijiquan de huxi yu yun qi fa” (taijiquan’s methods of breathing and qi circulation), appearing in a description of the meditative practice of following the qi, where it says that the qi of the dantian travels downward to the haidi, then passes directly to the weilu before ascending up the spine. Stuart Olson’s translation of this material in his book, _Cultivating the Ch’i: the Chen Kung Series, Volume 1_ (Dragon Door 1993), glosses “haidi” as “Sea Bottom Cavity (coccyx),” and “weilu” as “tailgate cavity (tailbone).” I’m just curious what tradition these terms are grounded in. They aren’t standard terms for acupuncture points, but there are non-standard medical traditions that may be the source of these terms. (The term weilu appears in the Autumn Floods chapter of the Zhuangzi, but may be mytho-geographical, rather than anatomical in its meaning.)
Chen Yanlin’s description of the taijiquan sequence, haidizhen (needle at sea bottom), makes no reference to any particular significance of the term “haidi,” and his application scenario is very close to Yang Chengfu’s. On the other hand, Xu Yusheng (Xu Longhou), in his 1921 book, _Taijiquan shi tujie_, says that the form is so named because the term haidi is the name of a cavity on the human body, and the hand stabs (ci) in the direction of that point. Unfortunately, Xu does not say where the point is located. His application scenario also makes no reference to actually pressuring a point on the opponent’s body, so it may only have to do with the general direction one aims (?). Huang Wenshan’s English book, Fundamentals of T’ai Chi Ch’uan (Hong Kong, 1979), which cribs heavily from Xu’s book, says the posture is so named because, “It means that the hand (needle) is used to pressure the vital point, which is known as ‘Sea Bottom’ (Hai Ti) in acupuncture, at the foot of the opponent.” (p. 240) Again, I’m not aware of this being an acupuncture term. Similarly, T.Y. Pang, in his book _On Tai Chi Chuan_ (Azalea, 1987, p. 96), writes, “ ‘Sea Bottom’ is a point on a meridian. Actually the books never say where that point is, but I think it must mean in the region of the energy center (dan bian) in the abdomen. So you are using your hand to attack the chu hai [sic] (an acupuncture point on the abdomen just below the navel, the dan point).” This would be the qihai point I mentioned.
It would seem, then, that there is considerable variation in just what the term haidi refers to. Moreover, as touched on in another thread on this board, there may be reason to believe that the form name was inspired by a common proverbial phrase, “haidi lao zhen” (looking for a needle on the sea floor), rather than referencing some pressure point or energy center. Who knows?
If you can shed any more light on this, and let me know the source of your information regarding its being an “energy center” at the perineum, I’d appreciate it.
Take care,
Louis
[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 11-18-2003).]
I’m still hoping that you’ll share some more of your findings regarding the use of the term “haidi.” In the meantime, I was able to find a passing reference to the term haidi in Chen Yanlin’s (a.k.a., Chen Gong) 1943 book on Yang style taijiquan. It’s in the section titled, “taijiquan de huxi yu yun qi fa” (taijiquan’s methods of breathing and qi circulation), appearing in a description of the meditative practice of following the qi, where it says that the qi of the dantian travels downward to the haidi, then passes directly to the weilu before ascending up the spine. Stuart Olson’s translation of this material in his book, _Cultivating the Ch’i: the Chen Kung Series, Volume 1_ (Dragon Door 1993), glosses “haidi” as “Sea Bottom Cavity (coccyx),” and “weilu” as “tailgate cavity (tailbone).” I’m just curious what tradition these terms are grounded in. They aren’t standard terms for acupuncture points, but there are non-standard medical traditions that may be the source of these terms. (The term weilu appears in the Autumn Floods chapter of the Zhuangzi, but may be mytho-geographical, rather than anatomical in its meaning.)
Chen Yanlin’s description of the taijiquan sequence, haidizhen (needle at sea bottom), makes no reference to any particular significance of the term “haidi,” and his application scenario is very close to Yang Chengfu’s. On the other hand, Xu Yusheng (Xu Longhou), in his 1921 book, _Taijiquan shi tujie_, says that the form is so named because the term haidi is the name of a cavity on the human body, and the hand stabs (ci) in the direction of that point. Unfortunately, Xu does not say where the point is located. His application scenario also makes no reference to actually pressuring a point on the opponent’s body, so it may only have to do with the general direction one aims (?). Huang Wenshan’s English book, Fundamentals of T’ai Chi Ch’uan (Hong Kong, 1979), which cribs heavily from Xu’s book, says the posture is so named because, “It means that the hand (needle) is used to pressure the vital point, which is known as ‘Sea Bottom’ (Hai Ti) in acupuncture, at the foot of the opponent.” (p. 240) Again, I’m not aware of this being an acupuncture term. Similarly, T.Y. Pang, in his book _On Tai Chi Chuan_ (Azalea, 1987, p. 96), writes, “ ‘Sea Bottom’ is a point on a meridian. Actually the books never say where that point is, but I think it must mean in the region of the energy center (dan bian) in the abdomen. So you are using your hand to attack the chu hai [sic] (an acupuncture point on the abdomen just below the navel, the dan point).” This would be the qihai point I mentioned.
It would seem, then, that there is considerable variation in just what the term haidi refers to. Moreover, as touched on in another thread on this board, there may be reason to believe that the form name was inspired by a common proverbial phrase, “haidi lao zhen” (looking for a needle on the sea floor), rather than referencing some pressure point or energy center. Who knows?
If you can shed any more light on this, and let me know the source of your information regarding its being an “energy center” at the perineum, I’d appreciate it.
Take care,
Louis
[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 11-18-2003).]
I may be may off here but Needle at Sea Bottom point is located somewhere in middle to upper ribs, as I was told once. I may have been sleeping since the actual application is pointing to qihai it kind of throws of my supposition. I will have to ask around.
Using metaphor, many times (as I have understood) martial adepts were not intellectuals and many could not read or write. There existed problem with dialect and translation between provincces.
The present application of "haid izhen" is as you wrist is being grasped at chest level (between chest and navel (qihai), place left hand (inner palm ontop) opponent wrist and point 4 fingers (right hands) in downward position (bending angle of wrist) while
utilizing limited downward peng (as opposed to pushing peng).
Actual form tend to be too low for application, althought the art aspect tends to estethically pleasing (for show). A good thing if that is one's interest!
Using metaphor, many times (as I have understood) martial adepts were not intellectuals and many could not read or write. There existed problem with dialect and translation between provincces.
The present application of "haid izhen" is as you wrist is being grasped at chest level (between chest and navel (qihai), place left hand (inner palm ontop) opponent wrist and point 4 fingers (right hands) in downward position (bending angle of wrist) while
utilizing limited downward peng (as opposed to pushing peng).
Actual form tend to be too low for application, althought the art aspect tends to estethically pleasing (for show). A good thing if that is one's interest!
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Louis Swaim
- Posts: 1390
- Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 7:01 am
- Location: Oakland, CA
Greetings dorshugla,
You wrote: “The present application of "haidi zhen" is as you wrist is being grasped at chest level (between chest and navel (qihai), place left hand (inner palm ontop) opponent wrist and point 4 fingers (right hands) in downward position (bending angle of wrist) while utilizing limited downward peng (as opposed to pushing peng).”
Yes, that is certainly one of them, and it can drop an opponent in an instant, or have them duckwalking like Chuck Berry, depending on how much they resist, and how it is applied. It won’t work if one tries to strong-arm it; it’s the sinking of the body that makes it effective. However, it’s only one part of a progressive series of techniques that can come into play in the whole sequence of Needle at Sea Bottom, Fan Through Back, and Turn Body Cast Fist (? the form name escapes me at the moment)—from a simple wrist release, to joint immobilizing locks, to strikes. It all depends on the actions of the opponent.
Yang Zhenduo's form description doesn't mention the applying of the left palm to the opponent's wrist, but Chen Yanlin includes it in his description as one possible technique. It's optional, depending on what's needed.
Take care,
Louis
You wrote: “The present application of "haidi zhen" is as you wrist is being grasped at chest level (between chest and navel (qihai), place left hand (inner palm ontop) opponent wrist and point 4 fingers (right hands) in downward position (bending angle of wrist) while utilizing limited downward peng (as opposed to pushing peng).”
Yes, that is certainly one of them, and it can drop an opponent in an instant, or have them duckwalking like Chuck Berry, depending on how much they resist, and how it is applied. It won’t work if one tries to strong-arm it; it’s the sinking of the body that makes it effective. However, it’s only one part of a progressive series of techniques that can come into play in the whole sequence of Needle at Sea Bottom, Fan Through Back, and Turn Body Cast Fist (? the form name escapes me at the moment)—from a simple wrist release, to joint immobilizing locks, to strikes. It all depends on the actions of the opponent.
Yang Zhenduo's form description doesn't mention the applying of the left palm to the opponent's wrist, but Chen Yanlin includes it in his description as one possible technique. It's optional, depending on what's needed.
Take care,
Louis
Louis,
Your are right-there are multiple uses.
If one is in conflict with a stronger opponent, then the single use (without left hand gently helping) will be unworkable.
Only the simple pickpocket or petty crime person will resort to this strategy (i.e.holding wrist because the person appear weak).
BAsed on the objective reality of crime statisttics, this type of action rarely exists (grasping wrists to assault) so it become non-functional through disuse or lack of awareness of how to use.
Your are right-there are multiple uses.
If one is in conflict with a stronger opponent, then the single use (without left hand gently helping) will be unworkable.
Only the simple pickpocket or petty crime person will resort to this strategy (i.e.holding wrist because the person appear weak).
BAsed on the objective reality of crime statisttics, this type of action rarely exists (grasping wrists to assault) so it become non-functional through disuse or lack of awareness of how to use.
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psalchemist
- Posts: 619
- Joined: Wed May 21, 2003 6:01 am
Greetings Louis,
I was pondering a purely theoretical perspective concerning the "Needle at Sea Bottom" posture.
An uneducated guess at a possible metaphorical meaning...
No reference.
I am simply presenting a creative idea on the issue.
Considering opening and closing of points and channels...
In "Needle at Sea Bottom" when one bends the torso to go downwards, I believe there is a 'closing' up of the frontal waist channels/conception vessel (whose lowest point is the Huiyin point or perineal point), which causes a general deprivation of qi to the waist area (the qi focussed is somewhere else-the points which compensated by opening). When one proceed to raise up again this then causes the closed points to open as a floodgate, or opening a dam. and the waist area then becomes 'flooded' with a "sea of qi" from the waist to the pireneal. Perhaps similar in nature to the process of accupuncture where needling the perineal point will stimulate flow and unblock passages in this area.
Thus needle(provoking stimulation) at sea bottom(perineal area)...
Well, I tried.
Best regards,
Psalchemist.
[This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 11-19-2003).]
I was pondering a purely theoretical perspective concerning the "Needle at Sea Bottom" posture.
An uneducated guess at a possible metaphorical meaning...
No reference.
I am simply presenting a creative idea on the issue.
Considering opening and closing of points and channels...
In "Needle at Sea Bottom" when one bends the torso to go downwards, I believe there is a 'closing' up of the frontal waist channels/conception vessel (whose lowest point is the Huiyin point or perineal point), which causes a general deprivation of qi to the waist area (the qi focussed is somewhere else-the points which compensated by opening). When one proceed to raise up again this then causes the closed points to open as a floodgate, or opening a dam. and the waist area then becomes 'flooded' with a "sea of qi" from the waist to the pireneal. Perhaps similar in nature to the process of accupuncture where needling the perineal point will stimulate flow and unblock passages in this area.
Thus needle(provoking stimulation) at sea bottom(perineal area)...
Well, I tried.
Best regards,
Psalchemist.
[This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 11-19-2003).]
We are back to metaphor again.
Let me explain: It has a cultural, social and intellectual bias/background. We are referencing the "Neeedle at Sea bottom" posture-As I was told many years ago, the Sea Bottom point (hai di zhen) was/is somewhere between middle to upper ribs area (a specific point) and is used to shock/or stop an attack whith an overly aggressive individual who didn't /doesn't heed or understand compassion or reason. It needed intervention of the one who applied it to use resucitation techniques also implying knowledge of acupuncture/some degree of anatomy or experience-in other words, a knowledgeable and literate instructor or person.
The passive observes who has an interest, or less lietrate will hear the tern/phrase "Needle at sea botton" and will in his social framework reference top therefore bottom (below), and as the actual posture is going down towards the qihai area (lower dantian below navel) so the conclusion is it must be the answer. It is a logical conclusion based onmj "metaphor" of posture and actual representation.
Agian, fellows, I cannot prove in writing that this is the case but I have personal experience. My teachers were of the "old school" (somewhat literate, in my words as their explanations proved right over the years). Please remember I did not believe everyhtiong they said but since I believe I have some ability to differentiate the false from the real only time will reveal its key.
Please do not believe what I said as gospel. Please scrutinize everything this way.
Practice, listen and apply. If it works, so be it.
Let me explain: It has a cultural, social and intellectual bias/background. We are referencing the "Neeedle at Sea bottom" posture-As I was told many years ago, the Sea Bottom point (hai di zhen) was/is somewhere between middle to upper ribs area (a specific point) and is used to shock/or stop an attack whith an overly aggressive individual who didn't /doesn't heed or understand compassion or reason. It needed intervention of the one who applied it to use resucitation techniques also implying knowledge of acupuncture/some degree of anatomy or experience-in other words, a knowledgeable and literate instructor or person.
The passive observes who has an interest, or less lietrate will hear the tern/phrase "Needle at sea botton" and will in his social framework reference top therefore bottom (below), and as the actual posture is going down towards the qihai area (lower dantian below navel) so the conclusion is it must be the answer. It is a logical conclusion based onmj "metaphor" of posture and actual representation.
Agian, fellows, I cannot prove in writing that this is the case but I have personal experience. My teachers were of the "old school" (somewhat literate, in my words as their explanations proved right over the years). Please remember I did not believe everyhtiong they said but since I believe I have some ability to differentiate the false from the real only time will reveal its key.
Please do not believe what I said as gospel. Please scrutinize everything this way.
Practice, listen and apply. If it works, so be it.
-
Louis Swaim
- Posts: 1390
- Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 7:01 am
- Location: Oakland, CA
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psalchemist
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- Joined: Wed May 21, 2003 6:01 am
Greetings Louis,
Your right, I used the wrong end of the Conception vessel (huiyin-xuanji)...
Huiyin-perineal
Chengjian-bottom lip/chin
Thanks for the correction,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.
(P.S. message has been edited for Chengjian point vs. Xuanjin)
[This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 11-19-2003).]
[This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 11-19-2003).]
Your right, I used the wrong end of the Conception vessel (huiyin-xuanji)...
Huiyin-perineal
Chengjian-bottom lip/chin
Thanks for the correction,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.
(P.S. message has been edited for Chengjian point vs. Xuanjin)
[This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 11-19-2003).]
[This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 11-19-2003).]
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Louis Swaim
- Posts: 1390
- Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 7:01 am
- Location: Oakland, CA
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psalchemist
- Posts: 619
- Joined: Wed May 21, 2003 6:01 am
Greetings Louis,
Looking at the sheet in my hands...the link you provided on accupoints depicts for the "conception vessel" 21 points...from Huiyin perineal to Xuanji...mouth/lip/chin.
Upon further investigations I realize that my printout is faulty...it ceased printing at the 21st when there are 24points - Chengjian is the last one on the list, and ALL my printouts are LACKING!
Best regards,
Psalchemist.
[This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 11-19-2003).]
Looking at the sheet in my hands...the link you provided on accupoints depicts for the "conception vessel" 21 points...from Huiyin perineal to Xuanji...mouth/lip/chin.
Upon further investigations I realize that my printout is faulty...it ceased printing at the 21st when there are 24points - Chengjian is the last one on the list, and ALL my printouts are LACKING!
Best regards,
Psalchemist.
[This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 11-19-2003).]