Greetings Mario,
You wrote: “when you adhere to or follow, someone or stick like glue...
. . .when there's only 1 center, whom do you need to control?”
I think I understand what you’re driving at. In Yang Chengfu’s form narrative for Needle at Sea Bottom, he says of the opponent:
“. . .though he may want to pull or struggle, all of this going to and fro will become as one continuous strength, and will be unexpectedly defeated by me. Then his rooting strength will sever itself. This will make it convenient for me to take advantage of his emptiness, to advance, and strike.” —Essence and Applications, p. 48.
There is no need to add to the strength that is already there. There is, however, a need to remain in control with regard to listening and adhering, so that one can take advantage.
The classics say to “give up yourself and follow the other,” and it works! However, in Yang Chengfu’s book, he plays with the words and turns them around: “One who is being rolled back must ‘give up the self and follow the other’ (she ji cong ren), yet must also know where to ‘give up the other and follow yourself’ (she ren cong ji).” (ibid., p. 106) That is a matter of timing—and of control over the situation, no?
Take care,
Louis
[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 03-07-2008).]
The meaning of an?
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Louis Swaim
- Posts: 1390
- Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 7:01 am
- Location: Oakland, CA
Greetings Mr. Lim,
Speaking of common phrases, "an bing bu dong" reminds me of the English idioms, "hold your horses" or "look before you leap." They are similar in meaning as to proper timing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hold_your_horses
Take care,
Louis
Speaking of common phrases, "an bing bu dong" reminds me of the English idioms, "hold your horses" or "look before you leap." They are similar in meaning as to proper timing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hold_your_horses
Take care,
Louis
I tend to be reluctant to offer my opinions on the 8 jin since there are numerous published discussions of this topic by Taijiquan practitioners with much better credentials than mine, but my understandings vary somewhat from many approaches taken in trying to define these 8 jin. Different practitioners have differing understandings of the 8 jin (e.g. see the discussions on liejin @ the following thread on single-hand tuishou: http://www.yangfamilytaiji.com/ubb/Foru ... 00043.html) and I do not wish to imply that any are incorrect, only that my understanding is somewhat different, and I offer my views for those who may find value in them.
I do not particularly like simplifying anjin to a definition of “control” since all 8 jin are really about controlling an opponent when used in an interactive situation. Also "adhere, connect, stick, follow, without letting go or resisting" applies to other jin and should not be used primarily to define anjin. I also do not like the idea advocated by some to equate jin with particular directions (like down for anjin). Anjin is an energy/force (or however you wish to translate jin), not a direction! This is similar to trying to define gravitational force as downward due to the primary example of that force that we feel on us, but gravitational force can also affect things in an ‘upward’ direction. Ocean tides illustrate that the gravitational force of the moon can influence either ‘downward’ [low tides] or ‘upwards’ [high tide], or at an angle [between high and low tides]. I feel that the primary way that we use anjin in Taijiquan may tend to be downward, but that it can be used in any direction.
An example from the Yang style form (although this may vary from how the Yang family teaches this move, that should not matter for this illustration) is during the stroke/grasp sparrow’s tail sequence. I was taught that after the retreat from the ji/squeeze(press) when starting to apply the ‘push’ posture, the hands should follow a sagital ‘S’ path where the hands initially arc downwards during the initial quarter of the advance, followed by an upward arc that transitions through the middle of the ‘S’ shape, and ending in a downward arc in the last quarter of the movement. I view the energy from start to end of this described movement to be anjin, but if anjin is defined as ‘downward’ then the middle transitional part could not be called anjin! If not anjin, then what jin, or combination of jins, is being applied during the transition? If none of your definitions of the 8 jin can describe that transitional movement, then is it still Taijiquan at that point? Perhaps it indicates that the definitions of jin being used are too situation specific or too confined?
Put another way, if you are prone on the ground, would you still be capable of applying anjin to an opponent above you? I think that the ‘downward’ association with anjin may not apply in this situation, but I feel that anjin could still be used. I think that the association of ‘downward’ with anjin is due to the fact that our hands are connected to our shoulders resulting in anjin applied with the applied force tending to act downwards relative to the opponent’s center of mass. This downward tendency for anjin is also aided by the tendency to place one’s hands on top of the contact point with an opponent (e.g. on top of their arms).
Dan
I do not particularly like simplifying anjin to a definition of “control” since all 8 jin are really about controlling an opponent when used in an interactive situation. Also "adhere, connect, stick, follow, without letting go or resisting" applies to other jin and should not be used primarily to define anjin. I also do not like the idea advocated by some to equate jin with particular directions (like down for anjin). Anjin is an energy/force (or however you wish to translate jin), not a direction! This is similar to trying to define gravitational force as downward due to the primary example of that force that we feel on us, but gravitational force can also affect things in an ‘upward’ direction. Ocean tides illustrate that the gravitational force of the moon can influence either ‘downward’ [low tides] or ‘upwards’ [high tide], or at an angle [between high and low tides]. I feel that the primary way that we use anjin in Taijiquan may tend to be downward, but that it can be used in any direction.
An example from the Yang style form (although this may vary from how the Yang family teaches this move, that should not matter for this illustration) is during the stroke/grasp sparrow’s tail sequence. I was taught that after the retreat from the ji/squeeze(press) when starting to apply the ‘push’ posture, the hands should follow a sagital ‘S’ path where the hands initially arc downwards during the initial quarter of the advance, followed by an upward arc that transitions through the middle of the ‘S’ shape, and ending in a downward arc in the last quarter of the movement. I view the energy from start to end of this described movement to be anjin, but if anjin is defined as ‘downward’ then the middle transitional part could not be called anjin! If not anjin, then what jin, or combination of jins, is being applied during the transition? If none of your definitions of the 8 jin can describe that transitional movement, then is it still Taijiquan at that point? Perhaps it indicates that the definitions of jin being used are too situation specific or too confined?
Put another way, if you are prone on the ground, would you still be capable of applying anjin to an opponent above you? I think that the ‘downward’ association with anjin may not apply in this situation, but I feel that anjin could still be used. I think that the association of ‘downward’ with anjin is due to the fact that our hands are connected to our shoulders resulting in anjin applied with the applied force tending to act downwards relative to the opponent’s center of mass. This downward tendency for anjin is also aided by the tendency to place one’s hands on top of the contact point with an opponent (e.g. on top of their arms).
Dan
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Louis Swaim
- Posts: 1390
- Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 7:01 am
- Location: Oakland, CA
Greetings Dan,
That’s an admirably thoughtful and thought-provoking post. I don’t mean to propose “control” as a pat translation of “an;” I mean only to suggest its importance in the technique it names. That’s why I prefer, when discussing taiji “shi,” to speak in terms of configurations of energy, rather than of actions or postures. The English word “push” is at best a compromise translation for the “an” of taijiquan, but I can’t really think of a better alternative. It implies a push as an action, but as a configuration it encompasses so much more. I’m in complete agreement with your statement, ‘Also "adhere, connect, stick, follow, without letting go or resisting" applies to other jin and should not be used primarily to define anjin.’ I’m just pointing out that “control” in the sense of a restraining or monitoring touch is in fact one of the definitions of the word “an.”
For reasons you’ve expressed very well, I’ve also never had any particular use for the “downward” connotation often attributed to “an.” I do think, however, that there are directional connotations to the eight shi. They are not fixed or absolute, but have to do with direction relative to one’s center, the opponent’s center, and to trajectories of force.
Thanks for an excellent post! Don’t be so reluctant.
Take care,
Louis
That’s an admirably thoughtful and thought-provoking post. I don’t mean to propose “control” as a pat translation of “an;” I mean only to suggest its importance in the technique it names. That’s why I prefer, when discussing taiji “shi,” to speak in terms of configurations of energy, rather than of actions or postures. The English word “push” is at best a compromise translation for the “an” of taijiquan, but I can’t really think of a better alternative. It implies a push as an action, but as a configuration it encompasses so much more. I’m in complete agreement with your statement, ‘Also "adhere, connect, stick, follow, without letting go or resisting" applies to other jin and should not be used primarily to define anjin.’ I’m just pointing out that “control” in the sense of a restraining or monitoring touch is in fact one of the definitions of the word “an.”
For reasons you’ve expressed very well, I’ve also never had any particular use for the “downward” connotation often attributed to “an.” I do think, however, that there are directional connotations to the eight shi. They are not fixed or absolute, but have to do with direction relative to one’s center, the opponent’s center, and to trajectories of force.
Thanks for an excellent post! Don’t be so reluctant.
Take care,
Louis
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Bob Ashmore
- Posts: 754
- Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:01 am
- Location: Frankfort, KY, USA
My only thought on the general current of this discussion thread is that when An is used during two handed vertical push hands as the counter for Ji it is done while in the sitting back coiled energy position of the part of Grasp The Birds Tail we call push, not in the forward extended released energy position of that form.
I remember being surprised by that when I first learned it, but it taught me a lot about the energies and differnt thought processes of how to use them instead of just thinking of the end result of a particular form being its culmination all the time.
The energies tend to be thought of by most only as represented at their "ending" released state, but are perfectly applicable at any time and in many different body positions.
All I've got.
You have all given me much to ponder.
I remember being surprised by that when I first learned it, but it taught me a lot about the energies and differnt thought processes of how to use them instead of just thinking of the end result of a particular form being its culmination all the time.
The energies tend to be thought of by most only as represented at their "ending" released state, but are perfectly applicable at any time and in many different body positions.
All I've got.
You have all given me much to ponder.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Louis Swaim:
Greetings Mario,
You wrote: “when you adhere to or follow, someone or stick like glue...
. . .when there's only 1 center, whom do you need to control?”
I think I understand what you’re driving at. In Yang Chengfu’s form narrative for Needle at Sea Bottom, he says of the opponent:
“. . .though he may want to pull or struggle, all of this going to and fro will become as one continuous strength, and will be unexpectedly defeated by me. Then his rooting strength will sever itself. This will make it convenient for me to take advantage of his emptiness, to advance, and strike.” —Essence and Applications, p. 48.
There is no need to add to the strength that is already there. There is, however, a need to remain in control with regard to listening and adhering, so that one can take advantage.
The classics say to “give up yourself and follow the other,” and it works! However, in Yang Chengfu’s book, he plays with the words and turns them around: “One who is being rolled back must ‘give up the self and follow the other’ (she ji cong ren), yet must also know where to ‘give up the other and follow yourself’ (she ren cong ji).” (ibid., p. 106) That is a matter of timing—and of control over the situation, no?
Hey Louis,
just add this to what it has already been said by YCF,
example
to "control" in a fight situation, simply means, that your going to impose your will on him.
it a struggle, two opposite forces/ minds /ideas...remember he want to beat you!
what you want is instead is, for him not to know, nor feel you. "one center".
maybe this will help
ttp://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=QDnx2nsHetQ
let me know ciao
ciao
Greetings Mario,
You wrote: “when you adhere to or follow, someone or stick like glue...
. . .when there's only 1 center, whom do you need to control?”
I think I understand what you’re driving at. In Yang Chengfu’s form narrative for Needle at Sea Bottom, he says of the opponent:
“. . .though he may want to pull or struggle, all of this going to and fro will become as one continuous strength, and will be unexpectedly defeated by me. Then his rooting strength will sever itself. This will make it convenient for me to take advantage of his emptiness, to advance, and strike.” —Essence and Applications, p. 48.
There is no need to add to the strength that is already there. There is, however, a need to remain in control with regard to listening and adhering, so that one can take advantage.
The classics say to “give up yourself and follow the other,” and it works! However, in Yang Chengfu’s book, he plays with the words and turns them around: “One who is being rolled back must ‘give up the self and follow the other’ (she ji cong ren), yet must also know where to ‘give up the other and follow yourself’ (she ren cong ji).” (ibid., p. 106) That is a matter of timing—and of control over the situation, no?
Hey Louis,
just add this to what it has already been said by YCF,
example
to "control" in a fight situation, simply means, that your going to impose your will on him.
it a struggle, two opposite forces/ minds /ideas...remember he want to beat you!
what you want is instead is, for him not to know, nor feel you. "one center".
maybe this will help
ttp://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=QDnx2nsHetQ
let me know ciao
ciao
-
Louis Swaim
- Posts: 1390
- Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 7:01 am
- Location: Oakland, CA
Mario,
I do follow your point, and I think we may just be thinking differently about what control means. I’m not in any way advocating imposing my will on the other, struggling, or setting force on force. I have in mind some of these definitions from Webster’s:
*Power or authority to guide or manage
*Skill in the use of a tool, instrument, technique, or artistic medium
*Restraint, reserve
Nice clip! That brings back memories of my old jujitsu days, way back.
Take care,
Louis
[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 03-07-2008).]
I do follow your point, and I think we may just be thinking differently about what control means. I’m not in any way advocating imposing my will on the other, struggling, or setting force on force. I have in mind some of these definitions from Webster’s:
*Power or authority to guide or manage
*Skill in the use of a tool, instrument, technique, or artistic medium
*Restraint, reserve
Nice clip! That brings back memories of my old jujitsu days, way back.
Take care,
Louis
[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 03-07-2008).]
Greetings everyone,
In contexts such as these, many people do not always make clean distinctions between the etymology of characters and the etymology of words. The etymology of Chinese words is an extremely narrow specialty, whereas the etymology of characters is a cottage industry (i.e., everyone can do it).
The character for An has two components: a hand radical on the left and the character for "peace/calm" on the right. In this case, the character for peace (composed of a woman under a roof) is used as a phonetic and suggests the pronunciation for the overall character. They are pronounced the same, except for a difference in the tone. The hand radical suggests that the meaning of the character has to do with using the hands.
The character for peace was probably chosen as a phonetic, either because its meaning also suggested the meaning of An or because the two words were themselves etymologically related. My guess is that the words were indeed related (3-4000 years ago) and that the originally meaning was something like "press on/hold down with the hand." From this meaning, you can get an extended meaning of "restrain." From "restrained," you can get to "peaceful/calm." My guess is that as the meanings and pronunciation diverged, a need was felt for two different characters.
Another extended meaning of An is to "check/monitor," i.e., "keep your hands on things." I think this meaning makes it easier to understand what might be meant by "An ching is used as a listening energy."
As for Tui, my guess is that it means "push" in the sense of "moving from one place to another by applying pressure in front." Rather than suggesting motion, An suggests "holding more firmly in place."
Take care,
Audi
[This message has been edited by Audi (edited 03-08-2008).]
I would agree with what Louis posted, but wanted to add a little bit.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">As I don't speak or read Chinese, I have often wanted to ask those who do about the way this word is translated and what the etimology (sp?) is in it's various occurences.</font>
In contexts such as these, many people do not always make clean distinctions between the etymology of characters and the etymology of words. The etymology of Chinese words is an extremely narrow specialty, whereas the etymology of characters is a cottage industry (i.e., everyone can do it).
The character for An has two components: a hand radical on the left and the character for "peace/calm" on the right. In this case, the character for peace (composed of a woman under a roof) is used as a phonetic and suggests the pronunciation for the overall character. They are pronounced the same, except for a difference in the tone. The hand radical suggests that the meaning of the character has to do with using the hands.
The character for peace was probably chosen as a phonetic, either because its meaning also suggested the meaning of An or because the two words were themselves etymologically related. My guess is that the words were indeed related (3-4000 years ago) and that the originally meaning was something like "press on/hold down with the hand." From this meaning, you can get an extended meaning of "restrain." From "restrained," you can get to "peaceful/calm." My guess is that as the meanings and pronunciation diverged, a need was felt for two different characters.
In Modern Chinese, I think that "press on/hold down" works as a core meaning and that "hold back/restrain/repress" can work as an extended meaning. I think "control" works only in the narrow sense of "restrain/repress/quell," as in "control one's temper" (an4 zhu4 xin1 tou2 nu4 huo3).<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">“An ching is used as a listening energy. It is like having troops ready to move but holding them back until the command….”</font>
Another extended meaning of An is to "check/monitor," i.e., "keep your hands on things." I think this meaning makes it easier to understand what might be meant by "An ching is used as a listening energy."
As for Tui, my guess is that it means "push" in the sense of "moving from one place to another by applying pressure in front." Rather than suggesting motion, An suggests "holding more firmly in place."
FYI, "ring a bell" can be "an4 ling2," which shows that An is not necessarily limited to soft or slow movement or even restraining." The left hand in Single Whip might be a good example.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Something rang a bell with this… the following is from Kuo Lien-Ying’s book on an jin…</font>
FYI, An is used in "an4 pei4" to mean "rein in a horse" (literally, "hold back the bridle").<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Speaking of common phrases, "an bing bu dong" reminds me of the English idioms, "hold your horses" or "look before you leap."</font>
Dan, excellent post! Yang Jun talks about these things as ultimately being about internal feelings. He has said that if you really want to know what Jin has been used, you have to ask the recipient, because only he/she knows what was felt. The outside configuration is not necessarily determinative. What we do in the form may also mask many, many subtle possibilities that depend upon one's intention and the interplay of energy. Again, in Single Whip, there is more than one way to use the left palm in order to send energy (i.e., Fajin) into the opponent.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I do not particularly like simplifying anjin to a definition of “control” since all 8 jin are really about controlling an opponent when used in an interactive situation. Also "adhere, connect, stick, follow, without letting go or resisting" applies to other jin and should not be used primarily to define anjin. I also do not like the idea advocated by some to equate jin with particular directions (like down for anjin).</font>
Bob, good point. I think of this as the Yin part of An. For this circle, the Yang part comes only in application. Rather than "push," a better concept for us to keep in mind might be "restrain/hold/pin down." If you do this well enough, you may then have the chance to "ring the opponent's bell"!<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">My only thought on the general current of this discussion thread is that when An is used during two handed vertical push hands as the counter for Ji it is done while in the sitting back coiled energy position of the part of Grasp The Birds Tail we call push, not in the forward extended released energy position of that form.</font>
Take care,
Audi
[This message has been edited by Audi (edited 03-08-2008).]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Louis Swaim:
Mario,
hey Louis,
<I do follow your point, and I think we may just be thinking differently about what control means.>
i think of control as being a bad thing, like as if i, were to ride a wild rodeo, bull.
controlling the bull, is the last thing, you want to do, actually if you try, you will get thrown off...
but it would be better, to do those other things, we spoke about.
here, last clip, to help me with my explanation.
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=WMw_Jtn3Avc
ciao
[This message has been edited by mrnaples (edited 03-08-2008).]
Mario,
hey Louis,
<I do follow your point, and I think we may just be thinking differently about what control means.>
i think of control as being a bad thing, like as if i, were to ride a wild rodeo, bull.
controlling the bull, is the last thing, you want to do, actually if you try, you will get thrown off...
but it would be better, to do those other things, we spoke about.
here, last clip, to help me with my explanation.
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=WMw_Jtn3Avc
ciao
[This message has been edited by mrnaples (edited 03-08-2008).]
Hi Dan
Excellent post! As it was I who used the connotation “downward” with regard to an jin, you may be surprised to find out that I agree with what you’ve posted.
These days, I think of (and this may change) there being really only two directions – inward and outward (from a center point). So, if we look at in/out with the center point being the center of a sphere, the directions are multi-faceted (not too sure whether that is the best word to use here?), the vertical axis being very important.
So, to get back to jin, gravitational force and the vertical axis; and also keeping in mind that sinking (downward) and rising (upward) are happening simultaneously, my analogy is this – the sinking aspect is like having a pipe/hose (that runs through our body) sunk into the ground and accessing an underground spring. The water in the spring, being under pressure (due to gravity and mass), when given an outlet, rises up through the pipe. Thus, the downward action/intent of sinking is utilizing gravitational force to create an upward surge/energy. The opposite of that, could be described as having a tank of water at the top of that axis (our crown) and ending at an empty space underground. When the pipe enters the tank (pulling the string/hose at the crown), the water is naturally drawn down, also utilizing gravity. (I am not a scientist, so there may well be holes in this analogy, and also, I tend to think of one hose with two paths in it). This energy created (by gravity, in a sense) is then utilized by us (through mind intention) to become the jins. But, again, this is only one aspect as I am not including qi, dantien rotation, and … and…
You are combining the movement of the posture here with the jin. The way I look at this, throughout that sagittal path, there is an jin being applied, at what would be the contact points of your hands. In reference to my analogy above, it could be looked at as utilizing gravity (in one sense), creating a downward use of an which is directed by your center and mind intention.
I think I’ve rambled enough for now, but I’d like to thank you, Dan, for your post. It has made me sit down and put my thoughts to paper which I tend to find more difficult than just verbalizing. Also, since I am a fairly recent member to this forum, it has been an opportunity to introduce myself and my somewhat convoluted thought processes to the other members.
Excellent post! As it was I who used the connotation “downward” with regard to an jin, you may be surprised to find out that I agree with what you’ve posted.
This is the reason I chose downward as the example. In an attempt to keep my question as simple as possible I find myself guilty of oversimplifying. It is part of my learning style to break things into increments to broaden my understanding of whatever it is I am investigating at the time – akin to studying one posture in the form, for example – or even one part of a transitional movement in a posture. It is the way I learn the best.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I feel that the primary way that we use anjin in Taijiquan may tend to be downward, but that it can be used in any direction.</font>
I tend to be a bit of a traditionalist and so I keep in mind (to some extent) the ba gua diagram and the placement of the corresponding trigrams in relation to the jins, although I agree that in use/application of them the directions may vary, while at the same time they remain relative to that (ba gua) circle. But that is getting somewhat off-topic now.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Anjin is an energy/force (or however you wish to translate jin), not a direction!</font>
I really like the analogy you’ve used here. I just may borrow it, if you don’t mind?<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">This is similar to trying to define gravitational force as downward due to the primary example of that force that we feel on us, but gravitational force can also affect things in an ‘upward’ direction. Ocean tides illustrate that the gravitational force of the moon can influence either ‘downward’ [low tides] or ‘upwards’ [high tide], or at an angle [between high and low tides]. I feel that the primary way that we use anjin in Taijiquan may tend to be downward, but that it can be used in any direction.</font>
These days, I think of (and this may change) there being really only two directions – inward and outward (from a center point). So, if we look at in/out with the center point being the center of a sphere, the directions are multi-faceted (not too sure whether that is the best word to use here?), the vertical axis being very important.
So, to get back to jin, gravitational force and the vertical axis; and also keeping in mind that sinking (downward) and rising (upward) are happening simultaneously, my analogy is this – the sinking aspect is like having a pipe/hose (that runs through our body) sunk into the ground and accessing an underground spring. The water in the spring, being under pressure (due to gravity and mass), when given an outlet, rises up through the pipe. Thus, the downward action/intent of sinking is utilizing gravitational force to create an upward surge/energy. The opposite of that, could be described as having a tank of water at the top of that axis (our crown) and ending at an empty space underground. When the pipe enters the tank (pulling the string/hose at the crown), the water is naturally drawn down, also utilizing gravity. (I am not a scientist, so there may well be holes in this analogy, and also, I tend to think of one hose with two paths in it). This energy created (by gravity, in a sense) is then utilized by us (through mind intention) to become the jins. But, again, this is only one aspect as I am not including qi, dantien rotation, and … and…
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">the hands should follow a sagittal ‘S’ path where the hands initially arc downwards during the initial quarter of the advance, followed by an upward arc that transitions through the middle of the ‘S’ shape, and ending in a downward arc in the last quarter of the movement. I view the energy from start to end of this described movement to be anjin, but if anjin is defined as ‘downward’ then the middle transitional part could not be called anjin!</font>
You are combining the movement of the posture here with the jin. The way I look at this, throughout that sagittal path, there is an jin being applied, at what would be the contact points of your hands. In reference to my analogy above, it could be looked at as utilizing gravity (in one sense), creating a downward use of an which is directed by your center and mind intention.
I think I’ve rambled enough for now, but I’d like to thank you, Dan, for your post. It has made me sit down and put my thoughts to paper which I tend to find more difficult than just verbalizing. Also, since I am a fairly recent member to this forum, it has been an opportunity to introduce myself and my somewhat convoluted thought processes to the other members.
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Yuri_Snisarenko
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:01 am
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by aidren:
So, to get back to jin, gravitational force and the vertical axis; and also keeping in mind that sinking (downward) and rising (upward) are happening simultaneously, my analogy is this – the sinking aspect is like having a pipe/hose (that runs through our body) sunk into the ground and accessing an underground spring. The water in the spring, being under pressure (due to gravity and mass), when given an outlet, rises up through the pipe. Thus, the downward action/intent of sinking is utilizing gravitational force to create an upward surge/energy. The opposite of that, could be described as having a tank of water at the top of that axis (our crown) and ending at an empty space underground. When the pipe enters the tank (pulling the string/hose at the crown), the water is naturally drawn down, also utilizing gravity. (I am not a scientist, so there may well be holes in this analogy, and also, I tend to think of one hose with two paths in it). This energy created (by gravity, in a sense) is then utilized by us (through mind intention) to become the jins. But, again, this is only one aspect as I am not including qi, dantien rotation, and … and…
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Aidren, I like the way you are thinking here but if you are speaking only about the body and physical laws ("not including qi, dantien rotation, and …") how that can be done simultaneously? The body can only either sink or rise at one period of time, can't it?
So, to get back to jin, gravitational force and the vertical axis; and also keeping in mind that sinking (downward) and rising (upward) are happening simultaneously, my analogy is this – the sinking aspect is like having a pipe/hose (that runs through our body) sunk into the ground and accessing an underground spring. The water in the spring, being under pressure (due to gravity and mass), when given an outlet, rises up through the pipe. Thus, the downward action/intent of sinking is utilizing gravitational force to create an upward surge/energy. The opposite of that, could be described as having a tank of water at the top of that axis (our crown) and ending at an empty space underground. When the pipe enters the tank (pulling the string/hose at the crown), the water is naturally drawn down, also utilizing gravity. (I am not a scientist, so there may well be holes in this analogy, and also, I tend to think of one hose with two paths in it). This energy created (by gravity, in a sense) is then utilized by us (through mind intention) to become the jins. But, again, this is only one aspect as I am not including qi, dantien rotation, and … and…
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Aidren, I like the way you are thinking here but if you are speaking only about the body and physical laws ("not including qi, dantien rotation, and …") how that can be done simultaneously? The body can only either sink or rise at one period of time, can't it?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Louis Swaim:
<B>Greetings Dan,
[snip]
Don’t be so reluctant.
Take care,
Louis</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ok Louis (and others),
I realize that it is much more difficult to attempt to find an appropriate word(s) to translate Chinese terms than it is to write sentences attempting to explain the concepts, and I appreciate the information that you have provided.
Here are some other places with good information on this forum where anjin and other jin are discussed:
http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/ubb/For ... 00072.html
http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/ubb/For ... 00018.html
http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/ubb/For ... 00014.html
And, since my earlier attempt at posting a link included the “)” at the end of the URL so that it would not link properly, here is that link again:
http://www.yangfamilytaiji.com/ubb/Foru ... 00043.html
I have attempted to understand the 8 jin in a manner that is not form/posture specific and is not esoteric, but that is comprehensive. While these energies may require more complete explanations (or better – demonstrations) to illustrate how they are applied using Taijiquan principles, the following simple descriptions are what I tend to use at present:
Peng, Lu, Ji, and An are often described as the four primary jin, but I further break these into two groups. While all can be used to control and off-balance an opponent, I think of Peng and Lu as the primary methods for dealing with incoming energy, whereas Ji and An are the primary methods for issuing energy.
If viewed with the analogy of an elastic sphere, then Peng could be viewed as the ability of a properly inflated sphere to resist forces by compressing and rebounding (with the ‘rooting’ being implied since otherwise a ball would be bounced away from a force rather than being able to compress into the ‘root’ and rebounding the energy back from whence it came), whereas Lu could be viewed as the ability of the sphere to rotate and to divert the incoming force away from the sphere’s center. Thus Peng implies ‘structural integrity’ in its general sense (the properly inflated ball), and compressing (in response to the incoming energy) and expanding (to issue the rebounding energy outwards) in its application sense.
Thus as terms for translations, I suppose that I would use Peng = ‘structural integrity’ in its general sense, and I suppose ‘ward-off’ (understanding that this is done through ‘contraction and expansion/rebounding’) or ‘rebounding’ would be ok for its application sense. I would use Lu = ‘diverting’.
I view An as controlling an opponent through their structure, whereas Ji controls them through the gaps in that structure. Thus An attaches to the bones of the opponent while Ji ‘squeezes’ into the spaces between the bones. Ji can not only squeeze into the space between the arms (or legs) or other body parts (arm and torso, etc.) but can also be applied to the weak spaces between individual bones (i.e. the joints).
Thus as terms for translations, I suppose that I would use Ji = ‘squeeze’ or ‘squeeze into’ (not ‘squeeze’ as in ‘compression’) and An = ‘push’ or ‘push against’. I can’t currently think of a better term for An than ‘push’, although that does not entirely convey the meaning that I would wish to convey. I would not use ‘push down’ because of the stated directionality.
I view Zhou and Kao as simply changes in range. The four primary energies (Peng, Lu, Ji, An) describe techniques applied at the typical hand/foot range whereas Zhou describes techniques applied at elbow/knee range, and Kao at shoulder/hip (or torso) range [i.e. ‘folding’ techniques]. Both of these ranges can exhibit all of the four primary techniques, so I view specific techniques incorporating Zhou and Kao as being combined energies that should probably be described with terms like Zhouan, Kaoan, Zhoulu, Kaolu, etc.
Thus as terms for translations, I suppose that I would use Zhou = ‘shoulder range’ (not just ‘shoulder’ because I feel that this jin also includes the knee) and Kao = ‘shoulder/torso range’ (‘leaning’ may be ok as it implies putting the body or torso on someone, but has other connotations like tilting the torso that I do not like; ‘shouldering’ is not inclusive enough for me since I feel that this jin also describes applications with the hip, chest, back, etc.).
Lie and Cai are perhaps more difficult to describe. See the post that I linked to for my discussion of Lie. ‘Torque’ seems to be a reasonable term to describe the push/pull energy of Lie that results in such actions as ‘split’, ‘rend’, ‘tear’, ’wring’, ‘snap’, ‘break’, etc. I also like the term ‘pluck’ for Cai since the same energy used to pluck fruit from a tree (downwards energy) can be used to pluck a flower (upwards energy) (I do not like ‘pull-down’ due to the stated directionality).
While the above differ somewhat from the descriptions commonly given for the 8 jin, I hope that people may find them useful.
Dan
[This message has been edited by DPasek (edited 03-10-2008).]
<B>Greetings Dan,
[snip]
Don’t be so reluctant.
Take care,
Louis</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ok Louis (and others),
I realize that it is much more difficult to attempt to find an appropriate word(s) to translate Chinese terms than it is to write sentences attempting to explain the concepts, and I appreciate the information that you have provided.
Here are some other places with good information on this forum where anjin and other jin are discussed:
http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/ubb/For ... 00072.html
http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/ubb/For ... 00018.html
http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/ubb/For ... 00014.html
And, since my earlier attempt at posting a link included the “)” at the end of the URL so that it would not link properly, here is that link again:
http://www.yangfamilytaiji.com/ubb/Foru ... 00043.html
I have attempted to understand the 8 jin in a manner that is not form/posture specific and is not esoteric, but that is comprehensive. While these energies may require more complete explanations (or better – demonstrations) to illustrate how they are applied using Taijiquan principles, the following simple descriptions are what I tend to use at present:
Peng, Lu, Ji, and An are often described as the four primary jin, but I further break these into two groups. While all can be used to control and off-balance an opponent, I think of Peng and Lu as the primary methods for dealing with incoming energy, whereas Ji and An are the primary methods for issuing energy.
If viewed with the analogy of an elastic sphere, then Peng could be viewed as the ability of a properly inflated sphere to resist forces by compressing and rebounding (with the ‘rooting’ being implied since otherwise a ball would be bounced away from a force rather than being able to compress into the ‘root’ and rebounding the energy back from whence it came), whereas Lu could be viewed as the ability of the sphere to rotate and to divert the incoming force away from the sphere’s center. Thus Peng implies ‘structural integrity’ in its general sense (the properly inflated ball), and compressing (in response to the incoming energy) and expanding (to issue the rebounding energy outwards) in its application sense.
Thus as terms for translations, I suppose that I would use Peng = ‘structural integrity’ in its general sense, and I suppose ‘ward-off’ (understanding that this is done through ‘contraction and expansion/rebounding’) or ‘rebounding’ would be ok for its application sense. I would use Lu = ‘diverting’.
I view An as controlling an opponent through their structure, whereas Ji controls them through the gaps in that structure. Thus An attaches to the bones of the opponent while Ji ‘squeezes’ into the spaces between the bones. Ji can not only squeeze into the space between the arms (or legs) or other body parts (arm and torso, etc.) but can also be applied to the weak spaces between individual bones (i.e. the joints).
Thus as terms for translations, I suppose that I would use Ji = ‘squeeze’ or ‘squeeze into’ (not ‘squeeze’ as in ‘compression’) and An = ‘push’ or ‘push against’. I can’t currently think of a better term for An than ‘push’, although that does not entirely convey the meaning that I would wish to convey. I would not use ‘push down’ because of the stated directionality.
I view Zhou and Kao as simply changes in range. The four primary energies (Peng, Lu, Ji, An) describe techniques applied at the typical hand/foot range whereas Zhou describes techniques applied at elbow/knee range, and Kao at shoulder/hip (or torso) range [i.e. ‘folding’ techniques]. Both of these ranges can exhibit all of the four primary techniques, so I view specific techniques incorporating Zhou and Kao as being combined energies that should probably be described with terms like Zhouan, Kaoan, Zhoulu, Kaolu, etc.
Thus as terms for translations, I suppose that I would use Zhou = ‘shoulder range’ (not just ‘shoulder’ because I feel that this jin also includes the knee) and Kao = ‘shoulder/torso range’ (‘leaning’ may be ok as it implies putting the body or torso on someone, but has other connotations like tilting the torso that I do not like; ‘shouldering’ is not inclusive enough for me since I feel that this jin also describes applications with the hip, chest, back, etc.).
Lie and Cai are perhaps more difficult to describe. See the post that I linked to for my discussion of Lie. ‘Torque’ seems to be a reasonable term to describe the push/pull energy of Lie that results in such actions as ‘split’, ‘rend’, ‘tear’, ’wring’, ‘snap’, ‘break’, etc. I also like the term ‘pluck’ for Cai since the same energy used to pluck fruit from a tree (downwards energy) can be used to pluck a flower (upwards energy) (I do not like ‘pull-down’ due to the stated directionality).
While the above differ somewhat from the descriptions commonly given for the 8 jin, I hope that people may find them useful.
Dan
[This message has been edited by DPasek (edited 03-10-2008).]
Hello Audi,
Thank you for spending the time with this.
Thanks
Aidren
[This message has been edited by aidren (edited 03-10-2008).]
Thank you for spending the time with this.
Although it is somewhat off-topic, can you elaborate on this a little – the difference between the words and the characters….<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> In contexts such as these, many people do not always make clean distinctions between the etymology of characters and the etymology of words. The etymology of Chinese words is an extremely narrow specialty, whereas the etymology of characters is a cottage industry (i.e., everyone can do it). </font>
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> In Modern Chinese, I think that "press on/hold down" works as a core meaning and that "hold back/restrain/repress" can work as an extended meaning. </font>
I really like the “press/press on” connotation. It has seemed to me that press describes an far better than push (akin to “squeeze” being a better description of ji, to my mind) in terms of action and energy. And “check/monitor” fits well with the other meanings being discussed here.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> Another extended meaning of An is to "check/monitor," </font>
Thanks
Aidren
[This message has been edited by aidren (edited 03-10-2008).]
Hi Yuri,
I’m thinking of sinking the qua and seating the waist for the sinking aspect, and the raising/stretching of the spine (pulling the string at the crown) for the rising aspect – more of a postural/alignment aspect. Whereas in movement, the sinking/ rising would happen separately from each other, this postural/alignment aspect is always present.
Take care,
Aidren
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Aidren, I like the way you are thinking here but if you are speaking only about the body and physical laws ("not including qi, dantien rotation, and …") how that can be done simultaneously? The body can only either sink or rise at one period of time, can't it? </font>
I’m thinking of sinking the qua and seating the waist for the sinking aspect, and the raising/stretching of the spine (pulling the string at the crown) for the rising aspect – more of a postural/alignment aspect. Whereas in movement, the sinking/ rising would happen separately from each other, this postural/alignment aspect is always present.
Take care,
Aidren
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Yuri_Snisarenko:
<B>
Aidren, I like the way you are thinking here but if you are speaking only about the body and physical laws ("not including qi, dantien rotation, and …") how that can be done simultaneously? The body can only either sink or rise at one period of time, can't it?</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi Yuri
Yes, the body can. The "trick" is how one able to use one's mind with the body SIMULTANEOUSLY. Apply it on the #2 (hallow/contract the chest pluck/left up the back)of the 10 essential in the tradition Yang Association. See if it work for you.
Try this in case you do not understand. hallow/contract your chest softly inward and sinking downward toward your spine-waist-leg
into the ground. If you can feel this sinking sensation in your body. Then try it again and when you feel it sink to your waist then SIMULTANEOUSLY use your power of focus to left upward your yi from this same point,the waist, as if you are splitting the yi from this downward sink (yi go chi go.)through the back/spine to that big bone-bump locate at the base of the neck. It will come the time that you feel a strong sensation your whole spine is being left from THE waist and getting longer until it reach to the neck. Then I feel the'chill' as the'hair stand-up' on my back and goose pimples on both shoulders/arms.the top of your head feel tingle. It was not a comfortable sensation for me at first, but get used to it.
Of course this it only the first step toward a bigger thing. don't look at it as the hight skill. This is only one of many way to answer your simple question through my humble experience. A little 'chop-suy' dish.
Lim can't cook
<B>
Aidren, I like the way you are thinking here but if you are speaking only about the body and physical laws ("not including qi, dantien rotation, and …") how that can be done simultaneously? The body can only either sink or rise at one period of time, can't it?</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi Yuri
Yes, the body can. The "trick" is how one able to use one's mind with the body SIMULTANEOUSLY. Apply it on the #2 (hallow/contract the chest pluck/left up the back)of the 10 essential in the tradition Yang Association. See if it work for you.
Try this in case you do not understand. hallow/contract your chest softly inward and sinking downward toward your spine-waist-leg
into the ground. If you can feel this sinking sensation in your body. Then try it again and when you feel it sink to your waist then SIMULTANEOUSLY use your power of focus to left upward your yi from this same point,the waist, as if you are splitting the yi from this downward sink (yi go chi go.)through the back/spine to that big bone-bump locate at the base of the neck. It will come the time that you feel a strong sensation your whole spine is being left from THE waist and getting longer until it reach to the neck. Then I feel the'chill' as the'hair stand-up' on my back and goose pimples on both shoulders/arms.the top of your head feel tingle. It was not a comfortable sensation for me at first, but get used to it.
Of course this it only the first step toward a bigger thing. don't look at it as the hight skill. This is only one of many way to answer your simple question through my humble experience. A little 'chop-suy' dish.
Lim can't cook