The meaning of an?

Louis Swaim · Post by **Louis Swaim** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:15 pm

"I was having some Chinese food when a dark shadow fell over my chop suey."
—Ramond Chandler

--Louis

Yuri_Snisarenko · Post by **Yuri_Snisarenko** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:20 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I’m thinking of sinking the qua and seating the waist for the sinking aspect, and the raising/stretching of the spine (pulling the string at the crown) for the rising aspect – more of a postural/alignment aspect. Whereas in movement, the sinking/ rising would happen separately from each other, this postural/alignment aspect is always present.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, the body can. The "trick" is how one able to use one's mind with the body SIMULTANEOUSLY. Apply it on the #2 (hallow/contract the chest pluck/left up the back)of the 10 essential in the tradition Yang Association. See if it work for you.

I agree. Moreover imo this is a part of the most ancient internal work ever existed in chinese ima that dates back to creators of dai xinyi (probably most ancient ima style with obvious daoists roots) and old tong bei (that was mostly internal at that time).

Yuri_Snisarenko · Post by **Yuri_Snisarenko** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:24 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Louis Swaim:
"I was having some Chinese food when a dark shadow fell over my chop suey."
—Ramond Chandler

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

delicious

yslim · Post by **yslim** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:17 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Louis Swaim:
"I was having some Chinese food when a dark shadow fell over my chop suey."
—Ramond Chandler

--Louis<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi Louis

I have a good laugh when I read this But honestly I don't know why. I thought maybe you have a good sense of humor.
Who is Ramond Chandler? Maybe I shouldn't ask
it could wipe that laugh off my face.
But thank for a healthy laugh just the same.

Louis Swaim · Post by **Louis Swaim** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:46 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by yslim:

Originally posted by Louis Swaim:
"I was having some Chinese food when a dark shadow fell over my chop suey."
—Ramond Chandler

--Louis<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi Louis

I have a good laugh when I read this But honestly I don't know why. I thought maybe you have a good sense of humor.
Who is Ramond Chandler? Maybe I shouldn't ask
it could wipe that laugh off my face.
But thank for a healthy laugh just the same.

Greetings Mr. Lim,

I think chop suey (za sui) is just inherently funny, don't you? Some say it is entirely a Chinese-American invention, some say it is a Toisan dish from Guangdong, but in the north it means "entrails." That would be "chitlins" in some American communities.

Raymond Chandler was a novelist who wrote detective stories, like The Maltese Falcon. He used to hang out at a restaurant in Los Angeles called The Far East Cafe, which had a big neon sign saying Chop Suey. The "dark shadow" line is from one of his books.

I'm glad you got a laugh!

Take care,
Louis

[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 03-11-2008).]

yslim · Post by **yslim** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:52 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Louis Swaim:
 Greetings Mr. Lim,

I think chop suey (za sui) is just inherently funny, don't you? Some say it is entirely a Chinese-American invention, some say it is a Toisan dish from Guangdong, but in the north it means "entrails." That would be "chitlins" in some American communities.

Raymond Chandler was a novelist who wrote detective stories, like The Maltese Falcon. He used to hang out at a restaurant in Los Angeles called The Far East Cafe, which had a big neon sign saying Chop Suey. The "dark shadow" line is from one of his books.

I'm glad you got a laugh!

Take care,
Louis

[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 03-11-2008).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Master Swaim,

Thank you very much again for your time and detials to reply to my question.
Just in case other might think that we should not waste this space on none Taiji practice. Allow me to demonstrate how I put Taiji into all my activities.

When I used "a little dish of chop suey" in my post. That was my 'intend' action for a reaction. When I read your remark/reaction,my initial impression/listening energy was that you are a funny person.This is going to be a friendly push hand. My reaction to that was a hearty laugh/lu. when I read/come-to-face-to face to the 'dark shadow in your chop suey' that you countered. That when my yi took off. and it lead me into a laughing fit/delivery chi. I apply my learning "of how to put my yi' out at the most strategic place to observe you did an extreme yang by knock out the cook in cold to bring out the extreme yin, "that dark shadow" is going to land on your chop suey. Then it get cold for lack of chi,wok chi that is. The last laugh is on me when I realize the Dark shadow is me being not fang song and falling stiffly into your chop suey ,sorry about that I'm just a beginner. OR it shows that I was still standing there and make you eat the dame chop suey.End up as Roman wrestling push hand.

Master Louis, your yi power is as good as ESP and is beyoung mine. At first you had your yi (yin)'blanketed' me by took the words out of my yi which is "An Bing Bu Dong". At which time I still have the "hold your horse" in mind I could use. Then your yi/chi (yang/yin)'covered' me by took the rest of the words that i was going to use. That "matched up" and dissipated my East and West combination to a reply to another post. and you had "swallow" my good hope that I gave up on that reply. I must say you are good!

Now you even digging out my ancestral past! You are scary.China is a big country! why You have to pick my little village town Toisan. and Guangdong out of 30 provinces? and Toisan is not known to has any connection with chop suey. Being a Toisan ren and hanging out with,This is my first hearing The chop suey is a Toisan dish.
But it could be. Back in the Qing/Ching Dynasty when a high official name Lee Hung Chang, came to U.S. for a VIP visit. He was a weighty person more way then one. During the banquet he rejected fancy dish after fancy dish until the cook was pissed. so the cook(s) just dump whatever chopped up vegetables they had and stir fried it. Lee love it so much he want to know the name of this dish. The cook has no name for it so he just called out " Chop Suey" and most likely still pissed. "chop" is mean for "Mix of " "Suey" is means "small pieces of". In this case it is a dish of "mixed of small pieces" and in this case is veggies for Lee because he did not want meat. Thus is a Vegetarian dish. (later when adding chicken then call chicken chop suey) At the time of Lee's visit almost all the Chinese in the Gold Mountain is Toisanese. The Gold Mountain is what Toisanese call United States of America even to this day in Toisan. Because the discovered of gold in the west.

Ciao and thank you for a yifully push hand.
yslim

Louis Swaim · Post by **Louis Swaim** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:07 pm

Greetings Mr. Lim,

I like your sense of humor! I think your push hands skills must be pretty good too, and from your description and explanation of hanxiong babei (contain the chest/pluck up the back) I can see that you are a very good taiji cook—plenty of good qi in your wok.

I’ve heard the story about Li Hongzhang. He’s not a very funny historical figure, but when you mix him up with some chop suey, that’s funny! As for the Toisan connection, I grew up in Sacramento, the very heart of Gold Mountain, with many friends from Toisan ancestry. So in my mind, it's a very big place.

Take care,
Louis

P.S., please just call me Louis

Bob Ashmore · Post by **Bob Ashmore** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:45 pm

Mr. Lim,
Thank you for the explanation of "Chop Suey". I have never heard that before.
When I asked our local Chinese restaurant owner (she is originally from China, but has been in the US for nearly thirty years) what "chop suey" meant, she told me it originally meant "Leftovers all thrown together" and it was created in America, not China.
Now I know she is correct, but now I have a deeper meaning for it.
And a very funny story about its origins. I can't wait to pass it on.

~

Bob

yslim · Post by **yslim** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:56 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Louis Swaim:
Greetings Mr. Lim,

P.S., please just call me Louis<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I call you Master Louis,Swaim, because you are a scholar with vast taiji knowledge to be able to had a book out on Taiji which I bought so long ago but lost, please forgive my 'Senior moment.' Never loan Taiji book out to taiji friend unless have a lot of time on hand with yi has "stick' and 'follow' energy.

I always have a hard time to remember the name who hit me BUT not the punch. Because I will not give him my remaining three cheeks. for myself the name shortest the better. so just call me 'lim', short, simple just like me. People seem want to know my first name. I'm Chinese, it is my first name. One center?
that is enough.

Ciao
lim,ys
P.S. please don't ask what ys stand for unless you able to stand it. embarrassing
trap so don't go there.

yslim · Post by **yslim** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:25 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bob Ashmore:
Mr. Lim,
Thank you for the explanation of "Chop Suey". I have never heard that before.
When I asked our local Chinese restaurant owner (she is originally from China, but has been in the US for nearly thirty years) what "chop suey" meant, she told me it originally meant "Leftovers all thrown together" and it was created in America, not China.
Now I know she is correct, but now I have a deeper meaning for it.
And a very funny story about its origins. I can't wait to pass it on.

~

Bob <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Bob

I had giving some thought to your enthusiastic for learning information and the 'can't wait to pass it on' is has me worried.
especially if you return to your favorite local Chinese restaurant. After You had munch on a most delicious prawns chop suey you've ever had.In the spirit of sharing your taste good experience that you might bellow out " You have the best seafood in town!" Or " I love your seafood!". You don't even realize your breath smells fishy to the speechless waitress especially if she is a FOB (Fresh Off the Boat)from Toi-san and some Old Toisan lady folks at the restaurant who don't know much English but definitely turn their heads when they heard your BAD word "seafood".

"Sea food" is a perfect match Toisan phonic for your body part that you use to sit down while you visit that Chinese Mr 'Toi-Let' (no relation to Toi-san) alias "gentlemen" in the restroom.

Perhaps "Mooning" is more poetic to express such item.

So I hope you exercise your taiji's 'awareness' that you best use fish, prawns, crab,etc. separately BUT NOT SEA FOOD with Chinese ladies. Never under estimate the power of women's slap when you tangle with their 'seafood'!

Chinese call food from the sea 'hoi/hai' (sea)-'sin' (fresh) Your westerner seafood is too fresh that cause the young Chinese girls giggle and red faced and think you are a very dirty old man.

Ciao and Hope you can get away with it.
yslim

Bob Ashmore · Post by **Bob Ashmore** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:47 pm

Mr. Lim,
Again, I laughed out loud. Your humour is wonderful.
Fortunately, for this scenario, I am slightly allergic to hoi-sin, so I do not eat it at all. Since I don't eat it, I've never once yelled out "your seafood is wonderful" in any restaurant, and certainly never in a Chinese restaurant.
However, now that I know the phonetic meaning of "seafood" in Chinese, it does explain to me why a former teacher, a Master of Tai Chi Chuan, used to tell us, "As long as you call me Sifu and not seafood, I'll be very happy."
At the time, I thought it was just a way of making fun of the two words sounding so similar. Now, however...
It has an entirely new meaning for me and reiterates his wonderful sense of humour.
Thank you again for a deeper insight into the meaning of something I had overlooked.

By the way, I did mention to the owner of the restaurant about the "Lee Hung Chang" story of Chop Suey.
She said she has heard that too and has no reason to disbelieve it.
She was impressed with my knowledge of at least the story of the origin of the word, which lead me to tell her for the first time of my acquaintance with Tai Chi Chuan.
That started a discussion that went on for the entire meal.
Her husband, who cooks at the restaurant but is never out of the kitchen (so I have never even seen him much less met him), apparently practices Wu/Hoa style, but not very in depth and mostly for the health aspects.
We had a nice conversation and now she nods and smiles at me every time I go past the restaurant (which is often, as the grocery store I use is next door to it).

Bob

Audi · Post by **Audi** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:55 pm

Hi Dan,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I view An as controlling an opponent through their structure, whereas Ji controls them through the gaps in that structure. Thus An attaches to the bones of the opponent while Ji ‘squeezes’ into the spaces between the bones. Ji can not only squeeze into the space between the arms (or legs) or other body parts (arm and torso, etc.) but can also be applied to the weak spaces between individual bones (i.e. the joints).

Thus as terms for translations, I suppose that I would use Ji = ‘squeeze’ or ‘squeeze into’ (not ‘squeeze’ as in ‘compression’) and An = ‘push’ or ‘push against’. I can’t currently think of a better term for An than ‘push’, although that does not entirely convey the meaning that I would wish to convey. I would not use ‘push down’ because of the stated directionality.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dan, I think I generally share your approach, but probably differ on a few details. One thing I thought I should mention is that I do not think "ji" can mean "squeeze" in the way you describe above. "Ji" always seems to involve some idea of decreasing the space available in the local environment, whereas "squeeze" could involve decreasing your own volume.

In English, when you squeeze onto a bus, the image is of turning sideways and slipping into a gap. In Chinese, the image is of letting your elbows fly and creating the gap. The difference is important in understanding the effect of the technique. With Ji, the idea is that the opponent has an ideal comfort zone within which to control you for attack and defense. Using Ji, you crowd the opponent out of this zone as you yourself occupy it. In other words, you do not leave the opponent in place, but force him out of it.

My view of the eight primary configurations is as follows. First, the idea of configuration (shi4), rather than connotate "posture," makes more sense as a reference to the dynamic relationship formed by the interaction of the Jin of the two partners/combatants. This "configuration" or "posturing" then has eight primary divisions. The goal of your "posturing" is to control the relationship so that the opponent can neither attack you successfully nor defend himself from your attacks.

"Peng" could imply something like "puffing" or "protecting." Penging the opponent would mean puffing him out of the comfort zone from which he can attack and defend. He feels as if his Jin is floating out of position and he cannot bring his force to bear.

"Lu:" could mean "smoothing or stroking out," like smoothing out a beard. Doing "lu:" to the opponent would then mean smoothing out her square force so that she is too "thin" and too "sidewise" to be in a position to attack or defend.

"Ji" means "crowding or squeezing out." Ji-ing the opponent would then mean crowding him out of the appropriate space from which to attack and defend.

"An" could mean "restrain" or "hold in check." Doing An to the opponent would then mean restraining him so that he cannot bring his Jin up into play and cannot attack or defend.

"Cai" means "pluck." To Cai the opponent would thus mean to pluck her out of the right spot from which to attack and defend.

"Lie" has an uncertain meaning, but might be a dialect word meaning something like "smack." In any case, the Tai Chi usage seems to require some kind of "whirling," To do Lie to an opponent would then mean to whirl him out of a position to attack or defend. This could mean either that the technique is "powered" by a whirl, such as in Diagonal Flying, or that some part of the opponent's body is rotated, such as in Lifting Hands.

"Zhou" simply means "elbow" or perhaps "elbowing." To Zhou someone would not mean simply to elbow them, however, but to elbow them out of a position to attack or defend.

"Kao" means something like "to be vertically adjacent to something with the application of lateral energy." In every day usage, the idea of lateral energy does not have to be prominent and can almost be as weak as the idea of being "near" or "next to" something. In Taijiquan, I think the idea seems to refer to the trunk of the body. To Kao someone would then mean to apply energy to someone from the trunk so that she cannot attack or defend.

Take care,
Audi

yslim · Post by **yslim** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:28 pm

Hi Audi,

A great post. Hard to make something so clear and short to the point and the lost meanings between the lines. Thank you for your effort and sharing.

Ciao,have a good Taiji day

yslim

DPasek · Post by **DPasek** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:00 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Audi:
...One thing I thought I should mention is that I do not think "ji" can mean "squeeze" in the way you describe above. "Ji" always seems to involve some idea of decreasing the space available in the local environment, whereas "squeeze" could involve decreasing your own volume.

In English, when you squeeze onto a bus, the image is of turning sideways and slipping into a gap. In Chinese, the image is of letting your elbows fly and creating the gap. The difference is important in understanding the effect of the technique. With Ji, the idea is that the opponent has an ideal comfort zone within which to control you for attack and defense. Using Ji, you crowd the opponent out of this zone as you yourself occupy it. In other words, you do not leave the opponent in place, but force him out of it.
...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Audi,

Thanks for your post. Very interesting and well done!

I had always heard the explanation of Ji/squeeze in the “Western” way that you describe rather than the “Eastern” way that you give. I may have to rethink my understanding of Ji and An in light of this difference. Your explanations are interesting here, essentially differentiating between pushing an opponent out of their space (An) vs. displacing them by occupying their space (Ji).

On initial examination, our two explanations may not be incompatible since one would probably enter an opponent’s gaps in order to get into a proper position to displace them with Ji, and you would probably need to connect with their solid structure to push them away with An (or restrain them…). I’ll have to continue to think about the subtler implications of these energies when explained in the different ways that we have presented them in this thread.

While Zhou does mean “elbow”, I still prefer viewing it as a range change defined by the elbow but that also includes the knees. I also feel that the elbow/knee can be used to express the four primary (cardinal) energies: striking or pushing (An), displacing (Ji), diverting (Lu), and protecting/bouncing away (Peng) such that this jin is more indicative of an energy derived from a range change (the typical expression of Peng, Lu, Ji, An being at the hands/feet range). Likewise, I feel that Kao would be better viewed as the energy derived from the change in range to the torso (primarily expressed in the shoulder, but also can be the hips, back, chest…), and I also feel that the four primary (cardinal) energies can be expressed with Kao.

I also like the way that you present these jin in terms of the interaction between individuals. As the most effective way of learning these energies is perhaps by feeling their expression, interactive explanations are quite valuable. I tend to prefer referring to the circle/sphere and its ability to manifest these energies, whether in interactive or in solo work. But this likely is influenced more by my training in Chen style rather than my Yang style training, so perhaps it is not as applicable on this forum. While Yang style also places an emphasis on roundness and circularity, my understanding from my Chen style training tends to view the circle as a key to Taijiquan.

For example, Chen style emphasizes “dantian rotation” and “chansijin”. If viewed on a basic level, chansijin is practicing how to form various circles with the limbs while coordinating with the rotations generated in the dantian. When I practice chansijin I try to express all eight energies within each circle, and I try to carry that understanding into solo form and interactive practices. Thus my tendency to express my understanding of these eight energies, as much as possible, in terms of energies derived from (or generated by) movements of circles and spheres.

Differences aside, I think that your approach is quite well thought out and illustrates how the energies interact with the opponent, and this can be very useful in teaching these eight energies. I consider our two approaches as being complementary.

Dan

Louis Swaim · Post by **Louis Swaim** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:28 pm

Greetings Audi,

You wrote: “In English, when you squeeze onto a bus, the image is of turning sideways and slipping into a gap. In Chinese, the image is of letting your elbows fly and creating the gap. The difference is important in understanding the effect of the technique. With Ji, the idea is that the opponent has an ideal comfort zone within which to control you for attack and defense. Using Ji, you crowd the opponent out of this zone as you yourself occupy it. In other words, you do not leave the opponent in place, but force him out of it.”

Hmmm. Could be. I had to squeeze onto and off of many a bus when I lived in Taibei. It’s true that you have to be assertive in allocating your space, but you can be polite about it. One way is to say, “Jie guo yi xia” (let me pass, or let me through). There’s a pop song called “Rang Kai” (Get out of my way) which also has the phrase “jie guo yi xia.” It’s kind of fun—hip-hop like. You can listen to it here:

http://www.last.fm/music/%E7%8E%8B%E5%8 ... _/rang+kai

As to the connotation ji has in taiji application, your explanation is plausible, but I have a slightly different view. I remember in an old discussion here years back, I explained my take on ji as “a way of re-establishing and optimizing the effectiveness of your center-line trajectory when your peripheral point of contact with the opponent (in the wrist or forearm) has been been rolled back or deflected in such a manner as to make that point of contact ‘empty.’ With the ‘rear’ palm, one presses one’s wrist or forearm, channeling from your centerline to the opponent’s centerline.” There were some good points in that thread worth reviewing:

http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/ubb/For ... 00018.html

Take care,
Louis

[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 04-29-2008).]