Wushuer,
The links to the Yang Zhenji material on chinataijiquan.com begin on the home page:
http://www.chinataijiquan.com/en/en/default.htm
On that page you’ll find links with roman numerals I through V for the essays.
Regarding Yang Zhenji’s prescription about the relative immobility of the kua, I found my translation of something from his book that touches on this. This is one of the “points for attention” following his form instructions for “Single Whip”:
“Single Whip has three distinct movements of the waist guiding the hands and feet. The waist first turns left, then turns right, then again turns left. As a general rule, Yang Style taijiquan requires that there be no independent movements of the four limbs; rather all involve the waist’s leading of the four limbs in rotations. If the waist and the feet and arms separate from one another [in their motions], then the movement is incorrect, and one will also not reach the finest practice results. [In the transition involving the forming of the hook hand], the movement of the waist has some differences from other movements [in the form]. When one sits solidly over the right leg, the lower frame [xia pan] does not move—it is only the upper torso [shang shen], using the waist as a pivot, that guides the turning movement of the two hands—the kua and the buttocks are essentially immobile. [In the transition into the ending Single Whip posture], the waist’s movement is a leftward swing—one swing leads the movement of the empty left leg, and leads the movement of the left peng hand. In these two movements, the function of the waist has its own unique features. In performing and practicing, one should bear in mind that there are these differences.
“Generally speaking, the performance and practice of Yang Style taijiquan requires that ‘the waist’s movement be a bit more, the hands’ movement be a bit less.’ [A favorite formulation of YZJ’s] The hands often maintain a fixed shape, following the waist and then moving. If one grasps well this one practice method, it is tantamount to getting a firm hold on the main characteristics of Yang Style taijiquan.”
—Yang Zhenji, _Yang Chengfu Shi Taijiquan_.
What needs clarification, from my practice experience, is precisely what he means by “the kua and buttocks are essentially immobile.” Obviously, the kua moves in every weight shift, but here he is addressing a specific set of movements after one has settled the weight over one leg. His prescription has to do with only turning the upper torso from the lumbar region, while the lower frame maintains a fixed position. However, from a physiological perspective, there is indeed movement in the kua. That is, although the hips and butt remain in a fixed position, the muscles of the kua and the legs are engaged in the movement through the waist. There’s no way they cannot be involved. Indeed, many taiji texts often speak of the yao and kua together, recognizing this essential connection. So even in a situation where the kua is relatively fixed, there is “movement,” and that movement is closely involved in the movement of the upper frame.
This little bit of commentary by Yang Zhenji, in my opinion, reveals his deep understanding of principles, and his concern with averting overly simplistic interpretations of classical ideas like, “when one part moves, there is no part that does not move,” and points up how important it is for practitioners to ponder classical injunctions such as, “Seek stillness in motion,” the converse, and “Taijiquan uses stillness to manage movement.”
Comments, anyone?
Take care,
Louis
Single weightedness?
Many thanks for the link and the steerage to the I and II posts on that site. I looked at that home page about a dozen times and for some reason didn't see the forest for the trees.
Sometimes I do that.
I will read those pages ASAP.
My only comment would be strictly comparative, as I have not the time to try YZJ's break down of waist movement through YCF style Single Whip, though I will just as soon as I can sneak off for a couple of minutes to my hidey hole.
Many thanks, yet again, for translating this very well broken down description of YCF style Single Whip waist turns and sharing it with us here.
At this moment, all I can do is compare it to the Wu style Single Whip I am more familiar with and say "Wow, what a difference".
Which is exactly what I said the first time I did the Wu style Single Whip after the first Yang style I studied, and then exactly what I said when I did the YCF version after the Wu style.
Wu style Single Whip has only two turns, and I'm not sure both are from the tan tien. For clarity, and yet another reason why I get confused about terminologies between the two styles I've studied, I have to say that the Wu style I studied emphasizes "hip" turns as well as waist turns.
I will try to explain....
I have a tape Wu Kwong Yu made breaking down his form in minute detail that was originally only for instructors at the Academies, though I see it is now available to the public on the Wu family website, and on that tape the narrator cleary says "pivot your hip" as well as "turn your waist".
I think I'm beginning to see what the difference is in a theoretical sense as well as in an actual sense (if that makes sense).
Now that I am getting more into theory, (remember I said early on in this thread that my training before I joined the YCF center and came to this site was nearly all strictly the "here, do it like this" hands on variety that I got at the Academy, I never studied a book for this stuff until recently and I am just now, after seventeen years, learning most of these terms and theories) I am starting to understand what the difference is between waist and hip tunrs in that style.
I will do my best to explain, as I am rambling here while trying to formulate HOW to say this.
Hmmm..............
OK. I guess I'll try to describe it, then let you guys hammer me with questions when I fall short in the explaining.
Single Whip in Wu stle comes right after Grasp Birds Tail..... so...
You are standing with your weight on the left leg immediately following Roll Back, your right leg is empty and in front, right toe up, your hands are in front of your body at the center line, your left fingertips touching the inside of your right wrist, palms verticle. Turn your right palm to standing palm, leave your left fingertips in contact with your right wrist but your left palm turns up when you raise the right palm (I have no correlation for this in YCF style, your hands pivot at the wrist, right palm goes up and faces forward, left palm turns up while fingertips are still in contact with right wrist).
On the tape, the narrator says "Go forward", (this means to "lean" forward with your upper body while you push forward with your left leg until your right leg fills and your left leg empties, similar to YCF bow stance but in Wu style you lean your upper body like you do in YCF style Brush Knee). Keep your hands right where they are and just let them go forward with your body movement, don't move them forward independantly, but they move with you on the forward motion.
Once you're there, this is where the "hip" turn comes in that I'm talking about. This is VERY hard for me to describe as I've done nothing like it in YCF style.
OK, here goes.
If I'm remembering correctly, and as we all know I don't always so bear with me and I'll check tonight, then the tape says "pivot on your right heel and open your hips to the left". This is NOT a waist turn, per se. Your right hip "opens" or "turns" to the left, you do not turn your entire waist, yet.
Remember, you are totally centered over your right leg at this point, with no "weight" in your left leg at all. You pivot on your right heel, which means you are turning your body, including your right toe, to the left about 45 degrees while your right hand makes the Single Whip fist like in YCF style (for the life of me I cannot remember what this fist is called) only it is much more pointed and extended in Wu style (my YCF instructor simply walks over to my son and I and pats our hands when we make the Wu style hand here, which is often).
This hip turn and making the hand into that weird formation are one movement, done simultaneously with the pivot on the heel. The mental image here is striking your opponent in the neck, under the jaw, with the back of your hand and top of your wrist while your body makes that slight jerk to the left all at once, to dislocate your oppnonents jaw.
I know I'm describing this badly. I wish I could do better but while I understand all this mentally I don't know the words to describe it. There is nothing I have experienced in YCF style that even comes close to this. Nothing.
This is a very powerful wrist strike. Actually you use the right wrist and the back of the right hand together. I was told to visualize striking an opponents neck while I do this and imagine dislocating his jaw, though the only time I've used it is to disarm an armed opponent by applying the same motion up under his armpit which, if you do this right, numbs his whole arm for a few seconds. But I digress.
Also you drop your left elbow and let your left fingertips seperate from the right wrist during the hip turn, step one half step back with your left foot and position your left toe at what will be 45 degress from your body after this upcoming turn at the same time ("yeah, sure!" is what most people say the first time you tell them they are expected to pivot, make the hand, drop their left elbow, seperate their arms, step to the left and turn their left toe all at the same time).
NOW turn your waist to the left, leaving your right hand exactly where it is and taking your left arm with you to the left. Here I can get descriptive for your quite easily, as the upper body motion of your left arm and your tan tien turn are EXACTLY like the upper body in YCF style Cloud Hands, left. And I mean exactly except for the left hand, which does not make the palm turn out until you have stopped the waist turn.
You even out your body weight as you turn, so that when you finish the left palm turn out you are now exactly 50/50 weight distributed.
Whoo! I haven't tried to break that down so minutely since I taught my last beginner.... Eight years ago.
Sorry, but that's the best I can do right now. I'll watch the tape tonight and see if I missed anything vital.
Is there anything like this in YCF style?
This is REAL small circle stuff. You don't get much smaller circle than that wrist flip, which is practiced to break your opponents wrist or wrists or to disarm him, or both, by the way.
So comparing these two Single Whips...
Man! What a difference!
I'm going to go practice YCF style SW and try out YZJ's pointers.
Any comments so far on this "hip" turn in Wu style? Anything like this in YCF style?
I've been curious, but waiting until I finish section three to see if it comes later. Since I got all into it, I figued I'd go ahead and ask now.
[This message has been edited by Wushuer (edited 05-09-2003).]
Sometimes I do that.
I will read those pages ASAP.
My only comment would be strictly comparative, as I have not the time to try YZJ's break down of waist movement through YCF style Single Whip, though I will just as soon as I can sneak off for a couple of minutes to my hidey hole.
Many thanks, yet again, for translating this very well broken down description of YCF style Single Whip waist turns and sharing it with us here.
At this moment, all I can do is compare it to the Wu style Single Whip I am more familiar with and say "Wow, what a difference".
Which is exactly what I said the first time I did the Wu style Single Whip after the first Yang style I studied, and then exactly what I said when I did the YCF version after the Wu style.
Wu style Single Whip has only two turns, and I'm not sure both are from the tan tien. For clarity, and yet another reason why I get confused about terminologies between the two styles I've studied, I have to say that the Wu style I studied emphasizes "hip" turns as well as waist turns.
I will try to explain....
I have a tape Wu Kwong Yu made breaking down his form in minute detail that was originally only for instructors at the Academies, though I see it is now available to the public on the Wu family website, and on that tape the narrator cleary says "pivot your hip" as well as "turn your waist".
I think I'm beginning to see what the difference is in a theoretical sense as well as in an actual sense (if that makes sense).
Now that I am getting more into theory, (remember I said early on in this thread that my training before I joined the YCF center and came to this site was nearly all strictly the "here, do it like this" hands on variety that I got at the Academy, I never studied a book for this stuff until recently and I am just now, after seventeen years, learning most of these terms and theories) I am starting to understand what the difference is between waist and hip tunrs in that style.
I will do my best to explain, as I am rambling here while trying to formulate HOW to say this.
Hmmm..............
OK. I guess I'll try to describe it, then let you guys hammer me with questions when I fall short in the explaining.
Single Whip in Wu stle comes right after Grasp Birds Tail..... so...
You are standing with your weight on the left leg immediately following Roll Back, your right leg is empty and in front, right toe up, your hands are in front of your body at the center line, your left fingertips touching the inside of your right wrist, palms verticle. Turn your right palm to standing palm, leave your left fingertips in contact with your right wrist but your left palm turns up when you raise the right palm (I have no correlation for this in YCF style, your hands pivot at the wrist, right palm goes up and faces forward, left palm turns up while fingertips are still in contact with right wrist).
On the tape, the narrator says "Go forward", (this means to "lean" forward with your upper body while you push forward with your left leg until your right leg fills and your left leg empties, similar to YCF bow stance but in Wu style you lean your upper body like you do in YCF style Brush Knee). Keep your hands right where they are and just let them go forward with your body movement, don't move them forward independantly, but they move with you on the forward motion.
Once you're there, this is where the "hip" turn comes in that I'm talking about. This is VERY hard for me to describe as I've done nothing like it in YCF style.
OK, here goes.
If I'm remembering correctly, and as we all know I don't always so bear with me and I'll check tonight, then the tape says "pivot on your right heel and open your hips to the left". This is NOT a waist turn, per se. Your right hip "opens" or "turns" to the left, you do not turn your entire waist, yet.
Remember, you are totally centered over your right leg at this point, with no "weight" in your left leg at all. You pivot on your right heel, which means you are turning your body, including your right toe, to the left about 45 degrees while your right hand makes the Single Whip fist like in YCF style (for the life of me I cannot remember what this fist is called) only it is much more pointed and extended in Wu style (my YCF instructor simply walks over to my son and I and pats our hands when we make the Wu style hand here, which is often).
This hip turn and making the hand into that weird formation are one movement, done simultaneously with the pivot on the heel. The mental image here is striking your opponent in the neck, under the jaw, with the back of your hand and top of your wrist while your body makes that slight jerk to the left all at once, to dislocate your oppnonents jaw.
I know I'm describing this badly. I wish I could do better but while I understand all this mentally I don't know the words to describe it. There is nothing I have experienced in YCF style that even comes close to this. Nothing.
This is a very powerful wrist strike. Actually you use the right wrist and the back of the right hand together. I was told to visualize striking an opponents neck while I do this and imagine dislocating his jaw, though the only time I've used it is to disarm an armed opponent by applying the same motion up under his armpit which, if you do this right, numbs his whole arm for a few seconds. But I digress.
Also you drop your left elbow and let your left fingertips seperate from the right wrist during the hip turn, step one half step back with your left foot and position your left toe at what will be 45 degress from your body after this upcoming turn at the same time ("yeah, sure!" is what most people say the first time you tell them they are expected to pivot, make the hand, drop their left elbow, seperate their arms, step to the left and turn their left toe all at the same time).
NOW turn your waist to the left, leaving your right hand exactly where it is and taking your left arm with you to the left. Here I can get descriptive for your quite easily, as the upper body motion of your left arm and your tan tien turn are EXACTLY like the upper body in YCF style Cloud Hands, left. And I mean exactly except for the left hand, which does not make the palm turn out until you have stopped the waist turn.
You even out your body weight as you turn, so that when you finish the left palm turn out you are now exactly 50/50 weight distributed.
Whoo! I haven't tried to break that down so minutely since I taught my last beginner.... Eight years ago.
Sorry, but that's the best I can do right now. I'll watch the tape tonight and see if I missed anything vital.
Is there anything like this in YCF style?
This is REAL small circle stuff. You don't get much smaller circle than that wrist flip, which is practiced to break your opponents wrist or wrists or to disarm him, or both, by the way.
So comparing these two Single Whips...
Man! What a difference!
I'm going to go practice YCF style SW and try out YZJ's pointers.
Any comments so far on this "hip" turn in Wu style? Anything like this in YCF style?
I've been curious, but waiting until I finish section three to see if it comes later. Since I got all into it, I figued I'd go ahead and ask now.
[This message has been edited by Wushuer (edited 05-09-2003).]
Hi Louis, Wushuer,
I agree with you, Louis, that the kua has to move when the waist is turned. But, I think YZJ is talking about a relative immobility, not an absolute one. If, while doing your form, you observe your belt-buckle: either it stays in the center when you twist your waist or it travels from one side to the other. YZJ seems to be referring to the first option. Some styles turn from the hip, so the belt buckle moves.
just my .02,
Steve James
I agree with you, Louis, that the kua has to move when the waist is turned. But, I think YZJ is talking about a relative immobility, not an absolute one. If, while doing your form, you observe your belt-buckle: either it stays in the center when you twist your waist or it travels from one side to the other. YZJ seems to be referring to the first option. Some styles turn from the hip, so the belt buckle moves.
just my .02,
Steve James
-
RonKreshmar
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Sat May 10, 2003 6:01 am
- Location: Nanaimo, B.C.
Greetings,
With respect to role of the “waist” and its contribution to torso rotation, here are a couple of links, from Google, that may be of interest.
If the “waist” is taken as the lumbar area, one will have to take into account that:
“In the lumbar region only 1-3 degrees of motion exist between each vertebra; here the restriction is due to the structure of the posterior portions of the motion segments (i.e., the facet joint). If spinal rotation exceeds a joint’s physiological limits, the excessive stress may be placed on intervertebral discs, their supporting ligaments, and their neural and vascular tissue.”
Ref.: http://www.indiana.edu/~preschal/resour ... ec992.html
Torso rotation based solely on spinal rotation, ie. without hip rotation, is due mainly to the mobility of the thorax, with movement at the L5 and T12 vertebra.
From http://www.uswushuacademy.com/articles/ ... zhenji.htm,
“Yang Zhenji learned from his father that the waist is located just above the hips. Because of this it can turn while the hips and knees remain fixed in place.
This is easily experienced in Grasp the Bird's Tail. The waist turns slightly to the right as the weight shifts into the right (front) leg. At the beginning of Rollback, the weight shifts to the rear but the waist turns by itself, leaving the hips and knees facing front. The press will be delivered with considerably more focus and power than if the hips and knees had rotated to the left with the rollback and then back with the press.
This identification of the location of the waist produces a very different transmission of energy from the lower to the upper part of the body. Because these waist movements are usually less pronounced than movements of the hips would be, they fit with the smaller arm and hand movements described above. The entire form gains compactness and power. THE TORQUE OF THE BODY produces explosive "Fa Jing" energy without large movements.” ( my emphasis).
This torque is due to shoulder twisting, movement of the rib cage, and the thoracic spine. If done “explosively” it will damage the lumbar spine.
At any rate, in no way is torso rotation originated from the lumbar spine itself.
Tai Chi is not the only area that lacks accurate knowledge of spinal movement.
Regular medical kinesiology has the same problems. The study below tries to address this.
http://asb-biomech.org/onlineabs/abstra ... df/166.pdf
One easy demonstration of the pelvis/spine contribution to torso movements is to place a broomstick across your upper back, hands holding it at the sides. Stand against your kitchen counter so as to immobilize the pelvis. Gently, twist your torso using the broomstick. Your spinal range of movement will end when the pelvis starts moving away from the counter.
After that it is the ilio-femoral articulation that is allowing for the hip movement.
Your pelvis, and the torso that rests on it, “rotates” on the femur.
Movement of the torso is initiated either by the pelvis rotating on the femur or by the thoracic spine.
The lumbar spine is a connector between the sacrum and the thoracic spine, it does not contribute to nor initiate ROTATIONAL torso movement.
Ron K
With respect to role of the “waist” and its contribution to torso rotation, here are a couple of links, from Google, that may be of interest.
If the “waist” is taken as the lumbar area, one will have to take into account that:
“In the lumbar region only 1-3 degrees of motion exist between each vertebra; here the restriction is due to the structure of the posterior portions of the motion segments (i.e., the facet joint). If spinal rotation exceeds a joint’s physiological limits, the excessive stress may be placed on intervertebral discs, their supporting ligaments, and their neural and vascular tissue.”
Ref.: http://www.indiana.edu/~preschal/resour ... ec992.html
Torso rotation based solely on spinal rotation, ie. without hip rotation, is due mainly to the mobility of the thorax, with movement at the L5 and T12 vertebra.
From http://www.uswushuacademy.com/articles/ ... zhenji.htm,
“Yang Zhenji learned from his father that the waist is located just above the hips. Because of this it can turn while the hips and knees remain fixed in place.
This is easily experienced in Grasp the Bird's Tail. The waist turns slightly to the right as the weight shifts into the right (front) leg. At the beginning of Rollback, the weight shifts to the rear but the waist turns by itself, leaving the hips and knees facing front. The press will be delivered with considerably more focus and power than if the hips and knees had rotated to the left with the rollback and then back with the press.
This identification of the location of the waist produces a very different transmission of energy from the lower to the upper part of the body. Because these waist movements are usually less pronounced than movements of the hips would be, they fit with the smaller arm and hand movements described above. The entire form gains compactness and power. THE TORQUE OF THE BODY produces explosive "Fa Jing" energy without large movements.” ( my emphasis).
This torque is due to shoulder twisting, movement of the rib cage, and the thoracic spine. If done “explosively” it will damage the lumbar spine.
At any rate, in no way is torso rotation originated from the lumbar spine itself.
Tai Chi is not the only area that lacks accurate knowledge of spinal movement.
Regular medical kinesiology has the same problems. The study below tries to address this.
http://asb-biomech.org/onlineabs/abstra ... df/166.pdf
One easy demonstration of the pelvis/spine contribution to torso movements is to place a broomstick across your upper back, hands holding it at the sides. Stand against your kitchen counter so as to immobilize the pelvis. Gently, twist your torso using the broomstick. Your spinal range of movement will end when the pelvis starts moving away from the counter.
After that it is the ilio-femoral articulation that is allowing for the hip movement.
Your pelvis, and the torso that rests on it, “rotates” on the femur.
Movement of the torso is initiated either by the pelvis rotating on the femur or by the thoracic spine.
The lumbar spine is a connector between the sacrum and the thoracic spine, it does not contribute to nor initiate ROTATIONAL torso movement.
Ron K
Hi Ron K,
I guess you're saying that what YZJ suggests is unhealthy, specifically if the movement is done explosively. I'm familiar with the complaint from other sports, but I think it may be misplaced in this context.
First, we'd assume that, if it were damaging per se, there would be some noticeable clinical pathology. In fact, most of the clinical tcc studies I've read have been related to knee complaints or injuries, which occur because of improper hip/knee rotation.
Second, I think we need to take speed of training into account. While we're sitting at the computer, with our hips relatively immobile, we have a particular range of turning movement that certainly involves the lumbar spine. I think it might be said that the yao "turns" left and/or right. It's true that the lumbar spine doesn't "rotate", per se. However, it's not clear that this amount of lumbar spine movement is necessarily harmful. It seems to be within the normal range-of-movement. There doesn't seem to be either intuitive (i.e., gained from personal observation) or clinical evidence that it is unhealthy.
Third: the "explosive" issue. Most of the studies I've read that deal with lumbar injury from explosive movements (specifically while "twisting") look at injuries that have occurred while lifting a heavy object. In that specific case, lumbar twisting is strictly advised against. But, this is not the case in tcc because most of the movements do not involve lifting. A search on these issues can be done on google to confirm this.
Fourth: Though the it's true that --with the broomstick exercise-- it's possible to overtwist and that the movement is focussed in the shoulders. However, imho,it's not true that the shoulders (and consequently the muscles of the cervical and upper-thoracic region) have to be the initiators of the movement. The latissimi are connected to the hip area, and the intercostals are certainly involved (top and bottom) and can be the initiators of any twist.
Finally, let's assume that any of this lumbar rotation (or movement) is unhealthy. In actuality, it rarely occurs as this sort of isolated movement. I.e., it always involves either a shift forward or backward --thus involving the hips and thighs-- or with a physical stepping. So, the isolated problem that you mention doesn't come up.
I think an appropriate case might be something like sitting in one's chair with a bowling ball in one's hands and twisting violently from left to right to the limit of one's range of motion. Without the proper preparation, I do agree that this could be harmful to the lower spine. (Please don't try that at home.) OTOH, I also think that one could build up the muscles in the body so that it wouldn't be harmful. It's much like the "medicine ball juggle" that boxer's frequently use. At the same time, yoga practitioners also twist their lumbar regions far more than most tcc practitioners do (ime) and they are said to have very healthy backs.
Anyway, again, I think you raise a point that should be considered. But, I don't think it's a real issue in the tcc movements that YZJ suggested.
Best,
Steve James
I guess you're saying that what YZJ suggests is unhealthy, specifically if the movement is done explosively. I'm familiar with the complaint from other sports, but I think it may be misplaced in this context.
First, we'd assume that, if it were damaging per se, there would be some noticeable clinical pathology. In fact, most of the clinical tcc studies I've read have been related to knee complaints or injuries, which occur because of improper hip/knee rotation.
Second, I think we need to take speed of training into account. While we're sitting at the computer, with our hips relatively immobile, we have a particular range of turning movement that certainly involves the lumbar spine. I think it might be said that the yao "turns" left and/or right. It's true that the lumbar spine doesn't "rotate", per se. However, it's not clear that this amount of lumbar spine movement is necessarily harmful. It seems to be within the normal range-of-movement. There doesn't seem to be either intuitive (i.e., gained from personal observation) or clinical evidence that it is unhealthy.
Third: the "explosive" issue. Most of the studies I've read that deal with lumbar injury from explosive movements (specifically while "twisting") look at injuries that have occurred while lifting a heavy object. In that specific case, lumbar twisting is strictly advised against. But, this is not the case in tcc because most of the movements do not involve lifting. A search on these issues can be done on google to confirm this.
Fourth: Though the it's true that --with the broomstick exercise-- it's possible to overtwist and that the movement is focussed in the shoulders. However, imho,it's not true that the shoulders (and consequently the muscles of the cervical and upper-thoracic region) have to be the initiators of the movement. The latissimi are connected to the hip area, and the intercostals are certainly involved (top and bottom) and can be the initiators of any twist.
Finally, let's assume that any of this lumbar rotation (or movement) is unhealthy. In actuality, it rarely occurs as this sort of isolated movement. I.e., it always involves either a shift forward or backward --thus involving the hips and thighs-- or with a physical stepping. So, the isolated problem that you mention doesn't come up.
I think an appropriate case might be something like sitting in one's chair with a bowling ball in one's hands and twisting violently from left to right to the limit of one's range of motion. Without the proper preparation, I do agree that this could be harmful to the lower spine. (Please don't try that at home.) OTOH, I also think that one could build up the muscles in the body so that it wouldn't be harmful. It's much like the "medicine ball juggle" that boxer's frequently use. At the same time, yoga practitioners also twist their lumbar regions far more than most tcc practitioners do (ime) and they are said to have very healthy backs.
Anyway, again, I think you raise a point that should be considered. But, I don't think it's a real issue in the tcc movements that YZJ suggested.
Best,
Steve James
-
RonKreshmar
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Sat May 10, 2003 6:01 am
- Location: Nanaimo, B.C.
Hi Steve,
Yes,what YZJ is saying is unhealthy, besides being anatomically inaccurate re where torso movement originates from.
From the first link:
"Although seemingly innocuous, movements such as those listed may lead to repetitive microtrauma. The first few times normal ROM of a joint is exceeded, perhaps only a few bands of collagen (a constituent of connective tissue seen in ligaments, discs, and in other soft-tissue structures) is damaged. However, repetitive microtrauma can eventually lead to serious damage of tissues."
The lumbar spine does not "rotate" around a vertical axis.
Torso rotation is due to pelvic and/or thoracic movement.
YZJ's quote prohibits hip movement in favour of "waist" movement. If the hips are immobilized then movement will originate from the thorax, from twisting the upper torso.
There is no such "waist" movement.
The lumbar spine is not meant to rotate, and only allows a tiny bit or rotation before its ROM is exhausted with resulting damage.
The broomstick exercise was meant to show that thoracic, upper torso rotation, has a small range of movement, about 16 degrees, and then it will starting moving the hips.
This was to be done GENTLY. If not done gently, the torque from the thoracic spine is transfered to the pelvis with the lumbar spine the victim. Just like the knees are the victims in some weighted pivots.
The link I gave presented some spinal facts.
When you are sitting on a chair and twist your torso this happens at lumbar 5 and thoracic 12. Not at the lumbar spine just above the pelvis which is considered the 'waist'.
The latissimi dorsi connect the shoulders to the pelvis, thus moving the shoulders can move the hips, with the lumbar spine caught in the middle. It is not the function of the latissimi to turn the pelvis, but it will if the thoracic spine is twisted.
Here's a link for the lattisimi.
http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/LatissimusDorsi.html
At the bottom of this page there is a link to the main page.
This site is a gold mine for information.
Under the "Articulation" link on that page there is information about all the skeletal muscles.
To come to understand what the classics are talking about with respect to the waist, one good starting point is anatomical information and kinesiological info.
If there are interpretations of the classics, such as that torso rotation originates from the lumbar area, and, not only that, but also that the lumbar spine rotates arounds its own axis, and it turns out that this is anatomically false, then alternative interpretations will have to be sought.
RonK
Yes,what YZJ is saying is unhealthy, besides being anatomically inaccurate re where torso movement originates from.
From the first link:
"Although seemingly innocuous, movements such as those listed may lead to repetitive microtrauma. The first few times normal ROM of a joint is exceeded, perhaps only a few bands of collagen (a constituent of connective tissue seen in ligaments, discs, and in other soft-tissue structures) is damaged. However, repetitive microtrauma can eventually lead to serious damage of tissues."
The lumbar spine does not "rotate" around a vertical axis.
Torso rotation is due to pelvic and/or thoracic movement.
YZJ's quote prohibits hip movement in favour of "waist" movement. If the hips are immobilized then movement will originate from the thorax, from twisting the upper torso.
There is no such "waist" movement.
The lumbar spine is not meant to rotate, and only allows a tiny bit or rotation before its ROM is exhausted with resulting damage.
The broomstick exercise was meant to show that thoracic, upper torso rotation, has a small range of movement, about 16 degrees, and then it will starting moving the hips.
This was to be done GENTLY. If not done gently, the torque from the thoracic spine is transfered to the pelvis with the lumbar spine the victim. Just like the knees are the victims in some weighted pivots.
The link I gave presented some spinal facts.
When you are sitting on a chair and twist your torso this happens at lumbar 5 and thoracic 12. Not at the lumbar spine just above the pelvis which is considered the 'waist'.
The latissimi dorsi connect the shoulders to the pelvis, thus moving the shoulders can move the hips, with the lumbar spine caught in the middle. It is not the function of the latissimi to turn the pelvis, but it will if the thoracic spine is twisted.
Here's a link for the lattisimi.
http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/LatissimusDorsi.html
At the bottom of this page there is a link to the main page.
This site is a gold mine for information.
Under the "Articulation" link on that page there is information about all the skeletal muscles.
To come to understand what the classics are talking about with respect to the waist, one good starting point is anatomical information and kinesiological info.
If there are interpretations of the classics, such as that torso rotation originates from the lumbar area, and, not only that, but also that the lumbar spine rotates arounds its own axis, and it turns out that this is anatomically false, then alternative interpretations will have to be sought.
RonK
Hi Louis, Steve, Ron,
I was taught that that "waist" is that part of the torso that bends and turns.
I've written here extensively in the past about waist turns as "shoulders right/hips left" and "shoulders left/hips right."
This is/was to point to the connection between the legs and the arms, and that *both* ends of the waist turns have leverage. ("Whole body movement" remember?)
It is the *muscles* and and the other assorted tissues in the area of the lumbar spine that are brought to bear in these waist turns. The lumbar spine is *braced* by proper technique, which thus allows the muscle coordination across the region.
Done correctly there is little torquing of the lumbar vertabrae. Which is as it should be.
What the passages refer to is, in my experience, correct.
Regards,
David J
I was taught that that "waist" is that part of the torso that bends and turns.
I've written here extensively in the past about waist turns as "shoulders right/hips left" and "shoulders left/hips right."
This is/was to point to the connection between the legs and the arms, and that *both* ends of the waist turns have leverage. ("Whole body movement" remember?)
It is the *muscles* and and the other assorted tissues in the area of the lumbar spine that are brought to bear in these waist turns. The lumbar spine is *braced* by proper technique, which thus allows the muscle coordination across the region.
Done correctly there is little torquing of the lumbar vertabrae. Which is as it should be.
What the passages refer to is, in my experience, correct.
Regards,
David J
-
RonKreshmar
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Sat May 10, 2003 6:01 am
- Location: Nanaimo, B.C.
Hi David,
The present issue is to get an accurate view of what sort of movement occurs in the torso.
Especially to get an accurate view of the role of the lumbar area which has been identified as being the area refered to as the "waist" in Tai chi.
Yes the lumber spine, extends/flexes both front and back and laterally.
The issue is the matter of rotational movement in the torso and the role of the lumbar spine in this rotation.
The occurence of hip/shoulder contrary movement is well established with respect to the gait cycle.
Here is one quotation from one of many sites dealing with human locomotion.
"Throughout the gait cycle pelvic rotation is matched by a counter rotation of the trunk and shoulder (Gregerson and Lucas 1967; Stokes et al 1989; Krebs et al 1992; Ohsato 1993) (See figure 1&2). While the pelvis rotates in one direction 7-11 degrees the shoulder girdle rotates in the opposite direction 7-11 degrees.
With the shoulders and pelvis rotating in opposite directions it is the mid-thoracic region that rotates maximally to accommodate this affect. The thorax has articular facets that allow this rotation. Without the rotation of the trunk opposite to the pelvis during locomotion the head and shoulders would rotate from side to side (Evans 1992) and at higher walking speeds the individual would be unable to proceed in a straight line (Inman et al 1981). The counter rotation also provides a mechanism for maintaining a stable head position, so that the sensors of the head (visual and vestibular) remain relatively unaffected by locomotion, leaving them free to perceive the environment unimpeded.
Notice from figure 2 that 7-11 degree rotation of the pelvis and lumbar spine in the horizontal plane is not acheived by the mobility of the lumbar spine.
Rotation between lumbar vertebrae reaches approximately only 0.03 degrees and lumabr discs are very suceptable to the effects of excessive rotational stresses (Farfan 1970)."
The last two paragraphs repeat that torso rotation does not involve the lumbar spine, and that there is only a slight margin for lumbar spine rotation before damage results.
I believe that discussion of the fundamental principles of Tai Chi is much more fruitful when based on accurate anatomical information.
The information provided is meant to result in the rejection of some views about what the lumbar spine does and does not do.
Then the discussion can deal with the shenfa aspects of Tai Chi-the torso method.
This board through the contributions of yourself,Steve,Louis and Audi, to name but a few, has developed into a valuable resource.
There is a pleasant scholarly atmosphere which includes citing sources.
The reader can then evaluate the information and its relevance to issues that are still open.
RonK
The present issue is to get an accurate view of what sort of movement occurs in the torso.
Especially to get an accurate view of the role of the lumbar area which has been identified as being the area refered to as the "waist" in Tai chi.
Yes the lumber spine, extends/flexes both front and back and laterally.
The issue is the matter of rotational movement in the torso and the role of the lumbar spine in this rotation.
The occurence of hip/shoulder contrary movement is well established with respect to the gait cycle.
Here is one quotation from one of many sites dealing with human locomotion.
"Throughout the gait cycle pelvic rotation is matched by a counter rotation of the trunk and shoulder (Gregerson and Lucas 1967; Stokes et al 1989; Krebs et al 1992; Ohsato 1993) (See figure 1&2). While the pelvis rotates in one direction 7-11 degrees the shoulder girdle rotates in the opposite direction 7-11 degrees.
With the shoulders and pelvis rotating in opposite directions it is the mid-thoracic region that rotates maximally to accommodate this affect. The thorax has articular facets that allow this rotation. Without the rotation of the trunk opposite to the pelvis during locomotion the head and shoulders would rotate from side to side (Evans 1992) and at higher walking speeds the individual would be unable to proceed in a straight line (Inman et al 1981). The counter rotation also provides a mechanism for maintaining a stable head position, so that the sensors of the head (visual and vestibular) remain relatively unaffected by locomotion, leaving them free to perceive the environment unimpeded.
Notice from figure 2 that 7-11 degree rotation of the pelvis and lumbar spine in the horizontal plane is not acheived by the mobility of the lumbar spine.
Rotation between lumbar vertebrae reaches approximately only 0.03 degrees and lumabr discs are very suceptable to the effects of excessive rotational stresses (Farfan 1970)."
The last two paragraphs repeat that torso rotation does not involve the lumbar spine, and that there is only a slight margin for lumbar spine rotation before damage results.
I believe that discussion of the fundamental principles of Tai Chi is much more fruitful when based on accurate anatomical information.
The information provided is meant to result in the rejection of some views about what the lumbar spine does and does not do.
Then the discussion can deal with the shenfa aspects of Tai Chi-the torso method.
This board through the contributions of yourself,Steve,Louis and Audi, to name but a few, has developed into a valuable resource.
There is a pleasant scholarly atmosphere which includes citing sources.
The reader can then evaluate the information and its relevance to issues that are still open.
RonK
Hi RonK,
"The information provided is meant to result in the rejection of some views about what the lumbar spine does and does not do."
OK, then it might be a matter of incorrect terminology in the translation. It's anatomically true that the lumbar spine doesn't rotate on the hip or pelvic girdle.
"Then the discussion can deal with the shenfa aspects of Tai Chi-the torso method."
I would like to hear your description of what happens. You may have described it already, but I'm not clear about it.
"There is a pleasant scholarly atmosphere which includes citing sources.
The reader can then evaluate the information and its relevance to issues that are still open."
Certainly true. My response to your comments was related to the question of physical damage. I am unaware of complaints related to the movement described. That would be stronger evidence of damage. It would probably be possible for damage to occur, but that is not what was presented in the cited material. It is good, imho, to consider the possible damage caused by misinterpretation. Clarifications of language always helps.
http://www.injurytreatment.com.au/home/ ... ine/lumbar
Best,
Steve James
RonK
[This message has been edited by tai1chi (edited 05-11-2003).]
"The information provided is meant to result in the rejection of some views about what the lumbar spine does and does not do."
OK, then it might be a matter of incorrect terminology in the translation. It's anatomically true that the lumbar spine doesn't rotate on the hip or pelvic girdle.
"Then the discussion can deal with the shenfa aspects of Tai Chi-the torso method."
I would like to hear your description of what happens. You may have described it already, but I'm not clear about it.
"There is a pleasant scholarly atmosphere which includes citing sources.
The reader can then evaluate the information and its relevance to issues that are still open."
Certainly true. My response to your comments was related to the question of physical damage. I am unaware of complaints related to the movement described. That would be stronger evidence of damage. It would probably be possible for damage to occur, but that is not what was presented in the cited material. It is good, imho, to consider the possible damage caused by misinterpretation. Clarifications of language always helps.
http://www.injurytreatment.com.au/home/ ... ine/lumbar
Best,
Steve James
RonK
[This message has been edited by tai1chi (edited 05-11-2003).]
-
Louis Swaim
- Posts: 1390
- Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 7:01 am
- Location: Oakland, CA
Greetings Ron,
I agree with the general import of your message, but have some reservations about some of its details. That is, I agree that it is important for us to attempt to understand taiji movement in the light of accurate anatomical and physiological knowledge. It is also true, as you suggest, that traditional taiji teachings may not always reflect more modern scientific structural knowledge of the body. I don’t claim to be a scientist, and my knowledge of anatomy and physiology is rudimentary. However, I would make the point that knowledge of anatomy and physiology does not guarantee kinesiological knowledge or kinesthetic awareness, which can more successfully be gained through training and experience. In my opinion, the art of taijiquan is remarkable for its high level of understanding of human movement, and for fostering movement that is economical, efficient, and beneficial.
Let me just home in on some of the problems I see in your presentation.
You posed the problem: “If the “waist” is taken as the lumbar area. . . .” Actually, my understanding is that taiji and other Chinese martial arts consider the waist (yao) to be inclusive of more than the lumbar spine. It includes muscles and tissues of the entire lower abdominal area, flanks, and lower back. Still, the lumbar spine is an important point of concentration, not because movement is generated from that point, but because it is an axis around which movement of the entire body orbits. So, when you state: “The lumbar spine is a connector between the sacrum and the thoracic spine, it does not contribute to nor initiate ROTATIONAL torso movement”, I think you may be inferring something that misrepresents the classical taiji understanding. Consider the classical metaphor of the qi being like a wheel, and the waist like the wheel’s axle. Given the time period, the person who called upon this metaphor would have had no experience of an axle that provided driving power to its wheel. Rather, the axle with which he was familiar merely supported the wheel’s rotation. (It is of course a very old metaphor, a version of which can be found in the Daodejing.) So taiji theory does not in any technical sense hold that the waist as lumbar spine initiates movement. Again, refer to the classical description: “It is rooted in the feet, issued by the legs, governed by the waist, and expressed in the fingers.” This governing is not to be confused with generating of force or movement.
Now, you cited something from a web page, a statement that purports to be a paraphrase or a synopsis of something Yang Zhenji taught. The statement was: “THE TORQUE OF THE BODY produces explosive "Fa Jing" energy without large movements.” I have some semantic issues with this this statement. The first is minor and subjective. While “torque” may have the basic meaning of a turning force, I think it often carries a connotation, particularly in common speech, of twisting something forcefully to its limits. I do not think anything in Yang Zhenji’s teachings, or in traditional taiji teachings, would endorse twisting the torso forcefully to its limits of motion. Moreover, there are a number of words for ‘torsion’ and ‘torque’ in Chinese, none of which I recall seeing in Yang Zhenji’s writings. The other semantic problem is the writer’s use of the word “explosive” with regard to the technical term “fajin.” I know that certain factions of martial artists are enamored with this explosive imagery, but it has always struck me as an implausible and hyperbolic way of talking about fajin. You are right that spinal damage would likely result from explosions within the body (with the exception of farts), but I don’t think that Yang Zhenji would advocate such internal ballistics.
Finally, you state: “Movement of the torso is initiated either by the pelvis rotating on the femur or by the thoracic spine.” Technically, I think what you describe are loci of rotation, rather than initiation of movement (which would be muscle-related, not joint related), but I agree with what you are getting at. By and large, most rotation of the upper torso in taijiquan occurs in conjunction with a concurrent turning of the pelvis. In some cases, the upper torso turns while the pelvis is relatively fixed. The passage I presented from Yang Zhenji addresses one of these cases, and he notes that it is a special case. The degree of turning in the prescribed sequence is very slight, and in my opinion presents no danger of the sort of damage you suggest might result. I attempted in my post to clarify what I think are some important subtleties in the passage I translated, and I fear I may have raised a red flag by being less than careful in my words. When I wrote: “His prescription has to do with only turning the upper torso from the lumbar region, while the lower frame maintains a fixed position”, it may have appeared that I was saying the turning is *generated* from the lumbar region, but that was not my intent. So I apologize for misleading wording.
Again, I appreciate your argument, which I find thoughful and thought provoking, but some of your apparent conclusions about alleged weaknesses in taiji theory are in my opinion ill founded. Nonetheless, your concerns remind me to be more careful in thought and speech in the future.
I look forward to your further thoughts on torso method.
Take care,
Louis
[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 05-12-2003).]
I agree with the general import of your message, but have some reservations about some of its details. That is, I agree that it is important for us to attempt to understand taiji movement in the light of accurate anatomical and physiological knowledge. It is also true, as you suggest, that traditional taiji teachings may not always reflect more modern scientific structural knowledge of the body. I don’t claim to be a scientist, and my knowledge of anatomy and physiology is rudimentary. However, I would make the point that knowledge of anatomy and physiology does not guarantee kinesiological knowledge or kinesthetic awareness, which can more successfully be gained through training and experience. In my opinion, the art of taijiquan is remarkable for its high level of understanding of human movement, and for fostering movement that is economical, efficient, and beneficial.
Let me just home in on some of the problems I see in your presentation.
You posed the problem: “If the “waist” is taken as the lumbar area. . . .” Actually, my understanding is that taiji and other Chinese martial arts consider the waist (yao) to be inclusive of more than the lumbar spine. It includes muscles and tissues of the entire lower abdominal area, flanks, and lower back. Still, the lumbar spine is an important point of concentration, not because movement is generated from that point, but because it is an axis around which movement of the entire body orbits. So, when you state: “The lumbar spine is a connector between the sacrum and the thoracic spine, it does not contribute to nor initiate ROTATIONAL torso movement”, I think you may be inferring something that misrepresents the classical taiji understanding. Consider the classical metaphor of the qi being like a wheel, and the waist like the wheel’s axle. Given the time period, the person who called upon this metaphor would have had no experience of an axle that provided driving power to its wheel. Rather, the axle with which he was familiar merely supported the wheel’s rotation. (It is of course a very old metaphor, a version of which can be found in the Daodejing.) So taiji theory does not in any technical sense hold that the waist as lumbar spine initiates movement. Again, refer to the classical description: “It is rooted in the feet, issued by the legs, governed by the waist, and expressed in the fingers.” This governing is not to be confused with generating of force or movement.
Now, you cited something from a web page, a statement that purports to be a paraphrase or a synopsis of something Yang Zhenji taught. The statement was: “THE TORQUE OF THE BODY produces explosive "Fa Jing" energy without large movements.” I have some semantic issues with this this statement. The first is minor and subjective. While “torque” may have the basic meaning of a turning force, I think it often carries a connotation, particularly in common speech, of twisting something forcefully to its limits. I do not think anything in Yang Zhenji’s teachings, or in traditional taiji teachings, would endorse twisting the torso forcefully to its limits of motion. Moreover, there are a number of words for ‘torsion’ and ‘torque’ in Chinese, none of which I recall seeing in Yang Zhenji’s writings. The other semantic problem is the writer’s use of the word “explosive” with regard to the technical term “fajin.” I know that certain factions of martial artists are enamored with this explosive imagery, but it has always struck me as an implausible and hyperbolic way of talking about fajin. You are right that spinal damage would likely result from explosions within the body (with the exception of farts), but I don’t think that Yang Zhenji would advocate such internal ballistics.
Finally, you state: “Movement of the torso is initiated either by the pelvis rotating on the femur or by the thoracic spine.” Technically, I think what you describe are loci of rotation, rather than initiation of movement (which would be muscle-related, not joint related), but I agree with what you are getting at. By and large, most rotation of the upper torso in taijiquan occurs in conjunction with a concurrent turning of the pelvis. In some cases, the upper torso turns while the pelvis is relatively fixed. The passage I presented from Yang Zhenji addresses one of these cases, and he notes that it is a special case. The degree of turning in the prescribed sequence is very slight, and in my opinion presents no danger of the sort of damage you suggest might result. I attempted in my post to clarify what I think are some important subtleties in the passage I translated, and I fear I may have raised a red flag by being less than careful in my words. When I wrote: “His prescription has to do with only turning the upper torso from the lumbar region, while the lower frame maintains a fixed position”, it may have appeared that I was saying the turning is *generated* from the lumbar region, but that was not my intent. So I apologize for misleading wording.
Again, I appreciate your argument, which I find thoughful and thought provoking, but some of your apparent conclusions about alleged weaknesses in taiji theory are in my opinion ill founded. Nonetheless, your concerns remind me to be more careful in thought and speech in the future.
I look forward to your further thoughts on torso method.
Take care,
Louis
[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 05-12-2003).]
Wow. Lot's of stuff here since last I visited.
I will not jump into the fray here, for now, until I can review it all at length and see what exactly is going on. I am far from an expert on lumbar and sacral rotation, so will leave that to those who do know and simply go on with my last point.
Especially as I have the head cold from heck and am not up to deep anatomical discussion at this point.
Back to my earlier post on Wu style Single Whip.
I have just minutely studied my instructional tape of Sifu Wu Kwong Yu and it's narrated breakdown of Wu style Single Whip (or form 18 of the Wu family 108 posture form):
You guys aren't going to believe this, especially following the thread that developed here recently, but there isn't once a mention, anyplace in the narrative, of "waist" movements. Sifu Eddie's narrator only ever says "hip" when talking you through these motions.
I will type this out for you, verbatim from the tape, in case anyone's at all interested in these "hip" movement descriptions.
I will then go back to bed and try not to die from blowing my nose. I'm only on here right now as I wait for my tea to brew. I felt like getting SOME kind of physical movement today, so I must be getting at least a little better after two straight days on my back wishing it would all just end, and so braved plugging in the tape and going over the narrative and watching the movements to see how badly I described it in my last post.
I did make one mistake on the description earlier, you don't make the half step back with your left foot until after the completion of the seperation of your hands and the first hip turn. I have been practicing this for so long they seem to happen at roughly the same time, but I did notice when I went through the tape breakdown and then did the form again that I do make the seperation and fingertips to wrist with the hip turn and then I step, but it's only a fraction of a second. Other than that, I seem to have broken it down rather well and in much greater detail than the taped narrative.
Another thing, the upper body turn to the left at the end that I described as being exactly like YCF style Cloud Hands. It's close, but not exactly, in that you only turn your body to your center line, then stop.
That, and there is no mention of "waist" rotation at all, only "turn your hip".
Here goes:
"Turn your palms upside down, right toe down and go forward". (This is a very simple and elegant breakdown of the palms turning I described in my last thread.)
"Grip your right palm, index finger to thumb, wrist bent."
"Now, turn your hip to your left, dropping your left elbow, bringing your right arm with you by pivoting on your right heel. Your left palm should be in front of your chest."
"Now, take a half step backward to your left with your left foot."
"Turn your hip to your left, pivoting on the left heel, bringing your left arm with you and shifting one half of your weight to your left foot."
"At the end of your movement turn your left palm outward, eyes left."
I simplify this a bit by placing my toe at the proper angle when I step out, because I was told to do this much later on in my training by one of the Wu's. I don't remember which one or if it was a disciple but this is an advanced version of the form that I practice. I never taught this to beginners, because the proper form is to pivot on your heel like described above. The step out to the proper angle is more advanced and not taught until much later.
That is my bad for not remembering this point when I broke it down.
The only purpose I know that the change makes is in speed and it very well may be that I'm remembering the breakdown of the Wu fast form I learned.
Either way, the word "waist" is not mentioned in the narrative.
Interesting. I'm not sure what the significance is to that.
In fact, now that I'm listening to the tape, there isn't a mention of the word "waist" anyplace on it that I have run into yet.
"Waist was often used in place of "hip" when in the Academies, but all the instructional texts and videos I have only ever say "hip".
I have Wu Tai Sin's video around here someplace as well, when I get back in the land of the living, I will break it out and see what that tape narrates along these lines.
Don't know if it has any particular significance or not, except from a translation point of view. But "turn your hip" is the phrase this tape uses for these turns.
Back to bed for me.
I will not jump into the fray here, for now, until I can review it all at length and see what exactly is going on. I am far from an expert on lumbar and sacral rotation, so will leave that to those who do know and simply go on with my last point.
Especially as I have the head cold from heck and am not up to deep anatomical discussion at this point.
Back to my earlier post on Wu style Single Whip.
I have just minutely studied my instructional tape of Sifu Wu Kwong Yu and it's narrated breakdown of Wu style Single Whip (or form 18 of the Wu family 108 posture form):
You guys aren't going to believe this, especially following the thread that developed here recently, but there isn't once a mention, anyplace in the narrative, of "waist" movements. Sifu Eddie's narrator only ever says "hip" when talking you through these motions.
I will type this out for you, verbatim from the tape, in case anyone's at all interested in these "hip" movement descriptions.
I will then go back to bed and try not to die from blowing my nose. I'm only on here right now as I wait for my tea to brew. I felt like getting SOME kind of physical movement today, so I must be getting at least a little better after two straight days on my back wishing it would all just end, and so braved plugging in the tape and going over the narrative and watching the movements to see how badly I described it in my last post.
I did make one mistake on the description earlier, you don't make the half step back with your left foot until after the completion of the seperation of your hands and the first hip turn. I have been practicing this for so long they seem to happen at roughly the same time, but I did notice when I went through the tape breakdown and then did the form again that I do make the seperation and fingertips to wrist with the hip turn and then I step, but it's only a fraction of a second. Other than that, I seem to have broken it down rather well and in much greater detail than the taped narrative.
Another thing, the upper body turn to the left at the end that I described as being exactly like YCF style Cloud Hands. It's close, but not exactly, in that you only turn your body to your center line, then stop.
That, and there is no mention of "waist" rotation at all, only "turn your hip".
Here goes:
"Turn your palms upside down, right toe down and go forward". (This is a very simple and elegant breakdown of the palms turning I described in my last thread.)
"Grip your right palm, index finger to thumb, wrist bent."
"Now, turn your hip to your left, dropping your left elbow, bringing your right arm with you by pivoting on your right heel. Your left palm should be in front of your chest."
"Now, take a half step backward to your left with your left foot."
"Turn your hip to your left, pivoting on the left heel, bringing your left arm with you and shifting one half of your weight to your left foot."
"At the end of your movement turn your left palm outward, eyes left."
I simplify this a bit by placing my toe at the proper angle when I step out, because I was told to do this much later on in my training by one of the Wu's. I don't remember which one or if it was a disciple but this is an advanced version of the form that I practice. I never taught this to beginners, because the proper form is to pivot on your heel like described above. The step out to the proper angle is more advanced and not taught until much later.
That is my bad for not remembering this point when I broke it down.
The only purpose I know that the change makes is in speed and it very well may be that I'm remembering the breakdown of the Wu fast form I learned.
Either way, the word "waist" is not mentioned in the narrative.
Interesting. I'm not sure what the significance is to that.
In fact, now that I'm listening to the tape, there isn't a mention of the word "waist" anyplace on it that I have run into yet.
"Waist was often used in place of "hip" when in the Academies, but all the instructional texts and videos I have only ever say "hip".
I have Wu Tai Sin's video around here someplace as well, when I get back in the land of the living, I will break it out and see what that tape narrates along these lines.
Don't know if it has any particular significance or not, except from a translation point of view. But "turn your hip" is the phrase this tape uses for these turns.
Back to bed for me.
Hi All,
Interesting stuff. The Lumbar spine need not have any chance of being injured in taiji if principles are followed. I know because I "broke the Law" and live with the results today.
If one does not keep the hip joints relaxed resulting in the natural rotation of the sacrum under and forward and a "straight" lower spine, damage can, or rather, WILL occur if conditions are "right".
In exercise, lifting, or taiji, the key is a "straight" back. If you round it in the lumbar area you are asking for trouble. If the correct structure is not maintained, one can indeed allow for the lumbar area to move past safe limits as Ron maintains.
The problem we are having here is that these things, the mobility of the lumbar spine and the proper relaxation of the hip joints cannot be sepatated. To isolate one area without the influence of the others seem to me is what is happening here. What Ron says here is correct about the lumbar spine. But, the limits of safe movement in joints at any particular moment is directly influenced by other factors such stress (loading etc) and structure. Proper structure in this case removes the dangers involved. Round your lower back a bit and rotate SLOWLY making sure to involve the Lumbar area. Now do it with proper structure. World of difference.
I rounded my back very slightly during stretching and paid dearly (L3 and 4 if I remember correctly). Enough so that It really only feels good when I maintain proper taiji structure. With the proper structure I can turn it (lower spine) far past the limits that may be considered "safe" with no problems.
Interesting stuff. The Lumbar spine need not have any chance of being injured in taiji if principles are followed. I know because I "broke the Law" and live with the results today.
If one does not keep the hip joints relaxed resulting in the natural rotation of the sacrum under and forward and a "straight" lower spine, damage can, or rather, WILL occur if conditions are "right".
In exercise, lifting, or taiji, the key is a "straight" back. If you round it in the lumbar area you are asking for trouble. If the correct structure is not maintained, one can indeed allow for the lumbar area to move past safe limits as Ron maintains.
The problem we are having here is that these things, the mobility of the lumbar spine and the proper relaxation of the hip joints cannot be sepatated. To isolate one area without the influence of the others seem to me is what is happening here. What Ron says here is correct about the lumbar spine. But, the limits of safe movement in joints at any particular moment is directly influenced by other factors such stress (loading etc) and structure. Proper structure in this case removes the dangers involved. Round your lower back a bit and rotate SLOWLY making sure to involve the Lumbar area. Now do it with proper structure. World of difference.
I rounded my back very slightly during stretching and paid dearly (L3 and 4 if I remember correctly). Enough so that It really only feels good when I maintain proper taiji structure. With the proper structure I can turn it (lower spine) far past the limits that may be considered "safe" with no problems.
-
Louis Swaim
- Posts: 1390
- Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 7:01 am
- Location: Oakland, CA
Louis,
I am not turning past "safe limits". The "safe limits" I am speaking about are those that apply to the rounded or compressed lower back that most of the population is walking around with due to how the top of the pelvis is tilted---"pulled" back or falling forward. Sorry for the confusion. I hope that helps.
I have had this discussion with PTs---whom I have seen plenty of over the years. They have pretty much agreed that the "straight" back negates most of the potential danger that can result from bending or turning the lower back. OUr physical structure has limitations. YAng TAiji structure reflects and works with it beautifully. I am continually amazed by it.
I am not turning past "safe limits". The "safe limits" I am speaking about are those that apply to the rounded or compressed lower back that most of the population is walking around with due to how the top of the pelvis is tilted---"pulled" back or falling forward. Sorry for the confusion. I hope that helps.
I have had this discussion with PTs---whom I have seen plenty of over the years. They have pretty much agreed that the "straight" back negates most of the potential danger that can result from bending or turning the lower back. OUr physical structure has limitations. YAng TAiji structure reflects and works with it beautifully. I am continually amazed by it.
-
RonKreshmar
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Sat May 10, 2003 6:01 am
- Location: Nanaimo, B.C.
Hi Louis
Yes, I posted in response to reading
"His prescription has to do with only turning the upper torso from the lumbar region, while the lower frame maintains a fixed "
And then the additional description from the other site of
“Yang Zhenji learned from his father that the waist is located just above the hips. Because of this it can turn while the hips and knees remain fixed in place."
And the emphasis re explosive torque at that site.
Your posting aimed at needed clarification of the kua's movement, my comments aimed at clarification of what happens re spinal movement.
My concern was with skeletal anatomy and skeletal movement in the torso, specifically ROTATIONAL movement of the spine.
The quotation specifically locates the ‘waist’ just above the hips and claims the the waist can ‘turn’ while the hips and knees remain fixed in place.
It can’t. The turning that takes place is thoracic spine rotation. And it is this turning which if done explosively, not within its normal range of movement, will result in damage to the lumbar spine.
I’m not making this up. This is from those posted links. Above the pelvis the only torso rotation that takes place is in the thoracic spine.
Part of the problem of getting clear about this is equivocation re ‘rotation’. Eg. claiming that if one turns the torso, that one turns the lungs, which results in a fallacy of attributing what is predicated of a whole to one of its parts.
When talking about rotation of the torso it is important to distinguish a number of different areas and types of rotation.
The skeletal aspects of the torso consist of the pelvis, the spine, and the shoulder.
Pelvic rotation takes place re the ilio-femoral joint, spinal rotation takes place in the thoracic spine and cervical spine.
Shoulder rotation is another kind of distinct rotation.
One of the links I supplied provides detailed information re these skeletal articulations.
You wrote:
"I think you may be inferring something that misrepresent the classical taiji understanding. Consider the classical metaphor of the qi being like a wheel, and the waist like the wheel’s axle. Given the time period, the person who called upon this metaphor would have had no experience of an axle that provided driving power to its wheel."
While your point is re origins of movement, ie. muscles, which was not a separate issue for me since any skeletal movement will involve muscles, there is an interesting aspect to this.
I am sure you would agree about the importance of metaphors. The "when you put an image in place of an image, then--".
Leaving aside the source of movement at a skeletal joint, what if the “wheel” were a millstone. A circular flat stone with a vertical axle and a horizontal lever by which rotating movement (torque)was imparted whether by man or some dumb ox.
Since one reason for my post was to prevent lumbar damage due to upper torso rotation it is millstone turning like movement that the lumbar spine is NOT designed for. And it is this sort of torque (Oxf. Moment of system of forces tending to cause rotation) that UPPER torso rotation transmits to the lumbar spine via all the relevant muscles if the thoracic rotation moves beyond its range of movement.
Re: qi being like a wheel, and the waist like the wheel’s axle and “it is rooted in the feet, issued by the legs, governed by the waist, and expressed in the fingers”.
You wrote: the lumbar spine is an important point of concentration, not because movement is generated from that point, but because it is an axis around which movement of the entire body orbits.
In my view, the lumbar spine is not like a wheel’s axle. So, the ‘waist’ will have to be located elsewhere. For me it will be a line just above the ilio-femoral joint, just about where the fabled dantian lies.
This is an imaginary axle not like an axle for a single wheel, but like the axle of a cart that can move the attached wheels from side to side.
In a real cart the movable axle is attached to a hub, called the ‘fifth wheel’, and the wheels of the cart are attached to this axle.
This is an analogy, so please, don’t equate this hub and its pin with the lumbar spine.
In the body this movement is achieved solely by the internal/external rotation of the femur on the pelvis, what is usually called the hip joint. Not the hip, but the hip joint.
In keeping with the title for this thread, this joint works best when one side is single weighted, when all the weight of the body is on a single leg. This allows the pelvis to rotate on a fixed femur, just like a post, leaving the other leg to do other stuff. Same bio-mechanics as in ordinary walking, all the muscles are there to fix the weight on one leg.
Because of the cryptic nature of the classics each word has to be carefully attended to, made more difficult, of course, because these are in Chinese.
The qi is like a wheel and the ‘waist’ like the wheel’s axle.
So, as the axle (of a cart) turns, so the wheels turn, in the sense of changing direction, side to side, as if advancing in folds. The wheels of a cart are also turning around the hubs on the axle.
The qi is like a wheel since when it reaches the fingers it is turning like a wheel.
Ie. the arms are turning like wheels.
This doesn't mean the arms are connected to the hips, only that the hips turn while the arms are also turning.
But this makes sense only if one’s arms actually turn like wheels or are turning as if turning a wheel.
Most Tai chi practicioner's arms don’t move like turning a wheel so this metaphor will not make sense.
As a quick aside, browsing through the mtsu board, I came across the ‘holding the ball’ thread.
Most people hold and move their arms as if holding a ball. Given that basketball was all the rage in China at YCF’s time, Chiang Kai shek was kidnapped during a game, and Tai chi was taught at the YMCA founded by Chiang’s father in law it comes as no surprise that this metaphor was used.
Many people when doing ward-off look like they are playing basketball.
But, back to the topic, re what you wrote re the lumbar spine
One common confusion is to mix up the idea of an axle and the idea of an axis.
Another confusion is to mistake the vertical vector for the center of gravity of objects, usually presented as a vertical line since that is the direction of the gravitational force, for either an axis of rotation or for an axle.
Here’s a link for the center of gravity:
http://www.exrx.net/ExInfo/Posture.html
The lumbar spine is not really an axis around which the movement of the entire body rotates. It’s bio-mechanical function is otherwise.
The hip joint is a ball and socket joint which allows rotation in 3 planes, flexion/extension, abduction/adduction, and lateral/medial (external/internal) rotation.
It is the lateral/medial rotation that the hip joint allows which is at the root of ‘torso’ rotation. Ie. moving the body from side to side.
And so I have settled on the hip joints as the “axle” joint, let the pelvis lead the way, be the banner, which the wheels (the arms) follow while turning like they are turning wheels.
The lumbar spine I leave alone, its lordotic curve intact. It may well rotate along with the pelvis but only in the sense in which the heart rotates when the pelvis rotates.
Still reeling,
Ron
[This message has been edited by RonKreshmar (edited 05-13-2003).]
Yes, I posted in response to reading
"His prescription has to do with only turning the upper torso from the lumbar region, while the lower frame maintains a fixed "
And then the additional description from the other site of
“Yang Zhenji learned from his father that the waist is located just above the hips. Because of this it can turn while the hips and knees remain fixed in place."
And the emphasis re explosive torque at that site.
Your posting aimed at needed clarification of the kua's movement, my comments aimed at clarification of what happens re spinal movement.
My concern was with skeletal anatomy and skeletal movement in the torso, specifically ROTATIONAL movement of the spine.
The quotation specifically locates the ‘waist’ just above the hips and claims the the waist can ‘turn’ while the hips and knees remain fixed in place.
It can’t. The turning that takes place is thoracic spine rotation. And it is this turning which if done explosively, not within its normal range of movement, will result in damage to the lumbar spine.
I’m not making this up. This is from those posted links. Above the pelvis the only torso rotation that takes place is in the thoracic spine.
Part of the problem of getting clear about this is equivocation re ‘rotation’. Eg. claiming that if one turns the torso, that one turns the lungs, which results in a fallacy of attributing what is predicated of a whole to one of its parts.
When talking about rotation of the torso it is important to distinguish a number of different areas and types of rotation.
The skeletal aspects of the torso consist of the pelvis, the spine, and the shoulder.
Pelvic rotation takes place re the ilio-femoral joint, spinal rotation takes place in the thoracic spine and cervical spine.
Shoulder rotation is another kind of distinct rotation.
One of the links I supplied provides detailed information re these skeletal articulations.
You wrote:
"I think you may be inferring something that misrepresent the classical taiji understanding. Consider the classical metaphor of the qi being like a wheel, and the waist like the wheel’s axle. Given the time period, the person who called upon this metaphor would have had no experience of an axle that provided driving power to its wheel."
While your point is re origins of movement, ie. muscles, which was not a separate issue for me since any skeletal movement will involve muscles, there is an interesting aspect to this.
I am sure you would agree about the importance of metaphors. The "when you put an image in place of an image, then--".
Leaving aside the source of movement at a skeletal joint, what if the “wheel” were a millstone. A circular flat stone with a vertical axle and a horizontal lever by which rotating movement (torque)was imparted whether by man or some dumb ox.
Since one reason for my post was to prevent lumbar damage due to upper torso rotation it is millstone turning like movement that the lumbar spine is NOT designed for. And it is this sort of torque (Oxf. Moment of system of forces tending to cause rotation) that UPPER torso rotation transmits to the lumbar spine via all the relevant muscles if the thoracic rotation moves beyond its range of movement.
Re: qi being like a wheel, and the waist like the wheel’s axle and “it is rooted in the feet, issued by the legs, governed by the waist, and expressed in the fingers”.
You wrote: the lumbar spine is an important point of concentration, not because movement is generated from that point, but because it is an axis around which movement of the entire body orbits.
In my view, the lumbar spine is not like a wheel’s axle. So, the ‘waist’ will have to be located elsewhere. For me it will be a line just above the ilio-femoral joint, just about where the fabled dantian lies.
This is an imaginary axle not like an axle for a single wheel, but like the axle of a cart that can move the attached wheels from side to side.
In a real cart the movable axle is attached to a hub, called the ‘fifth wheel’, and the wheels of the cart are attached to this axle.
This is an analogy, so please, don’t equate this hub and its pin with the lumbar spine.
In the body this movement is achieved solely by the internal/external rotation of the femur on the pelvis, what is usually called the hip joint. Not the hip, but the hip joint.
In keeping with the title for this thread, this joint works best when one side is single weighted, when all the weight of the body is on a single leg. This allows the pelvis to rotate on a fixed femur, just like a post, leaving the other leg to do other stuff. Same bio-mechanics as in ordinary walking, all the muscles are there to fix the weight on one leg.
Because of the cryptic nature of the classics each word has to be carefully attended to, made more difficult, of course, because these are in Chinese.
The qi is like a wheel and the ‘waist’ like the wheel’s axle.
So, as the axle (of a cart) turns, so the wheels turn, in the sense of changing direction, side to side, as if advancing in folds. The wheels of a cart are also turning around the hubs on the axle.
The qi is like a wheel since when it reaches the fingers it is turning like a wheel.
Ie. the arms are turning like wheels.
This doesn't mean the arms are connected to the hips, only that the hips turn while the arms are also turning.
But this makes sense only if one’s arms actually turn like wheels or are turning as if turning a wheel.
Most Tai chi practicioner's arms don’t move like turning a wheel so this metaphor will not make sense.
As a quick aside, browsing through the mtsu board, I came across the ‘holding the ball’ thread.
Most people hold and move their arms as if holding a ball. Given that basketball was all the rage in China at YCF’s time, Chiang Kai shek was kidnapped during a game, and Tai chi was taught at the YMCA founded by Chiang’s father in law it comes as no surprise that this metaphor was used.
Many people when doing ward-off look like they are playing basketball.
But, back to the topic, re what you wrote re the lumbar spine
One common confusion is to mix up the idea of an axle and the idea of an axis.
Another confusion is to mistake the vertical vector for the center of gravity of objects, usually presented as a vertical line since that is the direction of the gravitational force, for either an axis of rotation or for an axle.
Here’s a link for the center of gravity:
http://www.exrx.net/ExInfo/Posture.html
The lumbar spine is not really an axis around which the movement of the entire body rotates. It’s bio-mechanical function is otherwise.
The hip joint is a ball and socket joint which allows rotation in 3 planes, flexion/extension, abduction/adduction, and lateral/medial (external/internal) rotation.
It is the lateral/medial rotation that the hip joint allows which is at the root of ‘torso’ rotation. Ie. moving the body from side to side.
And so I have settled on the hip joints as the “axle” joint, let the pelvis lead the way, be the banner, which the wheels (the arms) follow while turning like they are turning wheels.
The lumbar spine I leave alone, its lordotic curve intact. It may well rotate along with the pelvis but only in the sense in which the heart rotates when the pelvis rotates.
Still reeling,
Ron
[This message has been edited by RonKreshmar (edited 05-13-2003).]