Occupying the opponent's center

Yuri Snisarenko · Post by **Yuri Snisarenko** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:44 am

Here are the excerptions from the Russian website of Shi Ming's taiji (his disciple perfectly speaks Russian, but my translation may contain mistakes, I hope Bamboo Leaf will correct me in that case). :

On Yi –
If your energy and your attention are in contact, if your energy and your attention got used to walk together, then because of their interaction new product emerges, this product is called by the Chinese word "Yi".

From what to start –
You may start from any side. You may start from the form and then fill it subsequently with the content of internal basis. There are different schools, which teach differently. I prefer to give the basis first. I take simple movements which can be grasped easily. … So you can understand the meaning of the training.

About humaneness -
It is about self-knowledge, philosophical pondering, carrying over the psycho-physical experience on the psychological plane, and on the work on yourself.

Interesting that they draw their lineage through Yang Chengfu: Yang Jianhou – Yang Chengfu – Wang Yongquan – Zhu Huiyuan – Shi Ming (however Shi Ming studied not only Yang style).

Here are some pictures of him –
http://www.tjq.ru/img/shi-min_forma1.jpg
http://www.tjq.ru/img/shi-min_forma2.jpg
http://www.tjq.ru/img/shi-min_forma3.jpg

His video –
http://www.wch.ru/video/sverh/02.avi

[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 09-16-2006).]

bamboo leaf · Post by **bamboo leaf** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 5:48 am

(On Yi –
If your energy and your attention are in contact, if your energy and your attention got used to walk together, then because of their interaction new product emerges, this product is called by the Chinese word "Yi".)

nice clips.

Interesting we have a saying or phase neisan hua which means three inner powers combined. Shen, yi and qi

It’s a very real and pliable feeling. Watching the clips and having had experienced many of the same things, even being there its so different from what one normally experiences. When for example my own teacher says do not use li. He literally means do not use your muscle. He often uses demos like this(similar to what is shown in the many clips) to illustrate what he means.

[This message has been edited by bamboo leaf (edited 09-16-2006).]

Audi · Post by **Audi** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:18 pm

Greetings all,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Audi
For me, concepts like "Yi" are both extraordinarily ordinary, but also deep.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by bamboo leaf
I would say no, the idea is not extraordinarily ordinary, even among many Chinese stylist its quite rear and not common. Many can talk about it but actually few very few can do it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yang Chengfu said (as translated on this website):

8. Match Up Inner and Outer

What we are practicing in taiji depends on the spirit, hence the saying: "The spirit is the general, the body his troops".
If you can raise your spirit, your movements will naturally be light and nimble, the form nothing more than empty and full, open and closed. When we say 'open', we don't just mean open the arms or legs; the mental intent must open along with the limbs. When we say 'close', we don't just mean close the arms or legs; the mental intent must close along with the limbs. If you can combine inner and outer into a single impulse *, then they become a seamless whole.

In this quote, Yang Chengfu uses the three terms “shen,” “yi,” and “qi” (translated here as “spirit,” “mental intent,” and “impulse.”). He uses these terms to explain the principle of matching inner and outer. To me, this strongly implies that he assumes his reader will readily understand what the terms mean and will need no secret key to unlock his meaning. This is what I mean by “ordinary.”

my own reading and understanding of this means that due to ones level the practice changes, the issues are very different.

I agree completely with this statement. The practice issues always change. My contention, however, is that the principles and underlying method do not change, at least according to my understanding of the Association’s Taijiquan. “Yi” and “Qi” are not high-level concepts, but rather basic ones.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> (My training partner said that at higher levels, there's no external movement, but each partner is chasing the other like two little mice running around inside until boom, one flys out.)

not so good at typing, if you look at the clips posted you will see different high level applications showing this happen.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was unable to access any of the clips, other than the one of Wang Peishen; however, I am pretty sure I know what is being referenced. Depending what is meant, I find the idea that many things in Taijiquan are not directly dependent upon movement to be quite orthodox; however, I find attempts to divorce internal from external quite troubling. I find no support for such a view in the classics, and I like to orient my present study by the classics.

I find equally troubling statements that imply high-level Taijiquan uses only Qi. Which of the classics talk in this way? If anything, I find that traditional Chinese philosophy accepts less of a distinction between the physical and non-physical than has been common in the West. And yet, even in modern science such a concept as “pure energy” (as distinct from matter) contradicts the prevailing theories and experimental evidence.

Empty force (i.e. with an air gap) has been performed on video dozens of times.

Assuming this statement to be accurate, how should I relate it to any of the classics or the writings of the traditional families that developed the art? What about the 13 postures or sticking-adhering-connecting-following? I am not asking about anecdotes, but about principles. Of course, one view of “empty force” is completely orthodox and unremarkable, but sending Qi through the air to push somewhat out seems hard to fit with many of the classic writings.

You are so right there have to be a movement no matter what. the mistake was mine as I was thinking about something call 'internal shi, (or internal movementfor for lack of right word)) one already setup in the physical body and "expressed through the "external shi (the physical body movement for lack of right word)and by the time the opponent saw this external shi and make his "move first" the opponent is already finished(defeated).

I agree with this and think of it as standard theory. You leave later and get there first because you are already there.

I usually perceive in people an intent to move before they do so. Sometimes I experience it as a wave of energy that washes through me (huh!) a split second before they change course and launch an attack. Part of why I'm so appalled at not being able to counter this new Yi to Yi business is that I'm used to "reading" a little bit in advance of what happens physically and now my safety zone of that split second is gone.

If we are speaking precisely, I think I look at this a little differently. I do not try to predict or anticipate movement or even try to get better at movement. I try to understand what my partner can do in the present. This is what I understand to be “dong jin.” If I can do this across time, I do not care what he or she plans to do, since I will always be in a position to counter and use his or her force. I can always use where I am in order to separate full and empty to my advantage. This is part of the meaning I find in “Seek stillness in movement.”

The minute I try to predict or anticipate, I am restricted to something that may or not be real and so cannot have an empty spirit (xu ling) leading my power (xu ling ding jin). When I have pushed with people I believe to be high-level, this is also what I feel is done to me. I do not feel an anticipation of my movement, but rather an intimate knowledge of my strengths and weaknesses in the ever-changing present and a control of a fulcrum to exploit these. The minute I over- or under-extend, I feel the fulcrum swing into action and cause me to be unable to change any further. I get pushed out by my futile attempts to regain control.

I do think that "people don't value the jade in the Kunlun mountains, they value their own trinkets", poor as they may be, "because they are of some benefit to them". Wonderful as some of these feats may be, I actually find them less interesting than the more mundane sort of practice which I do every day.

Well said!

I pair those thoughts with “Not leaving the near to seek the far” and “if you miss the beginning by a hair, you may miss the ultimate goal by a thousand miles.”

Interesting we have a saying or phase neisan hua which means three inner powers combined. Shen, yi and qi

Are these three not part of standard, public theory?

When for example my own teacher says do not use li. He literally means do not use your muscle.

I have no reason to doubt your teacher’s skill or the effectiveness of his teaching method, but I do not understand how this can be meant literally. If he is not lying on the ground, must he not be using muscle to counterattack gravity? If he is using muscle, how is this fundamentally different from standard training?

Take care,
Audi

[This message has been edited by Audi (edited 09-16-2006).]

tai1chi · Post by **tai1chi** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 5:26 pm

Hi,

this is an ancient argument. The part that I find most interesting is that, in general, it is rare to find an actual "Yang family" member advocating these practices. You'll pardon me for saying so, but it is the assertions of a hidden tradition. There seems to be an attempt to appropriate a tradition, and its meaning. I.e., these practices become --to the practitioners-- the defining feature of 'real' tcc or, a 'higher level' tcc.

It is certainly not considered at the "same level" as what Jerry describes as the 'more mundane' tcc that many practice. So, I would just like to second Jerry's comment, iinm. I believe that the more mundane aspects of daily, physical practice are enough for a complete enjoyment of the art. They are also more than sufficient to obtain the ability to apply tcc.

That's good enough for me, though I'm sure there are those who'll say that I'm missing something. Of course, perhaps they are missing something, too. It would seem such an easy thing to merely live and let practice, but this argument dies hard.

regards,
Steve J

bamboo leaf · Post by **bamboo leaf** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:59 pm

(I'm interested in any theories, interpretations, insight, or references to the literature.
Also, if there's anyone out there practicing this kind of technique, how do you take care not to injure each other?)

A stone cast causes many ripples not all returning to the source.

What I never understand in many forums apparently this one to is that someone asked a question, some not having anything to add then start to question what has been offered.

(I find attempts to divorce internal from external quite troubling. I find no support for such a view in the classics, and I like to orient my present study by the classics.)

okay this is your understanding based on your experiences which I respect, all I have said is that mine are different leading me to understand the same classics in a different way. Who is more or less correct or are both?

one may be perceived to be a higher level doing things? or not depends on ones own practice.

(And yet, even in modern science such a concept as “pure energy” (as distinct from matter) contradicts the prevailing theories and experimental evidence)

not sure what your meaning is but modern science has yet to understand and come to grips with the reality of qi. With out this I would expect much of what is in the clips i posted either not to be understandable in its own context or doable.

(but sending Qi through the air to push somewhat out seems hard to fit with many of the classic writings.)

and yet I have felt, experienced this and accept this explanation which depending on ones view of what is said in the classics can be found or alluded to.

Just some parting thoughts
(Also, if there's anyone out there practicing this kind of technique, how do you take care not to injure each other?)

many have chosen to post on ideas offered by people who practice or work with these types of ideas while not offering any of their own, maybe because their practice is a little different. Why not accept the differences?

while i post on such things trying to be helpful my intent has/is not to either prove or disprove only to offer what i have found, expeinced, understand. if its helpful okay, if not also okay.

[This message has been edited by bamboo leaf (edited 09-16-2006).]

bamboo leaf · Post by **bamboo leaf** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 9:08 pm

sorry, to much talk

deleted my words

have a good weekend all

[This message has been edited by bamboo leaf (edited 09-16-2006).]

Anderzander · Post by **Anderzander** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 9:32 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by bamboo leaf:
nice clips.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

David - you have that clip. I sent it to you I think?

From memory I gave you two DVD's and that is on one of them.

Anderzander · Post by **Anderzander** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 10:49 pm

Hi Audi

Just a couple of points I might be able to comment on.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
I usually perceive in people an intent to move before they do so. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If we are speaking precisely, I think I look at this a little differently. I do not try to predict or anticipate movement

Its not prediction or anticipation its just greater sensitivity that is being described.

I find attempts to divorce internal from external quite troubling. I find no support for such a view in the classics, and I like to orient my present study by the classics.

For me its not a divorce more a separation

a seperation in timing. As stated by 'the Yi leads the Chi and the Chi leads the body'.

When I push with people whose Yi, Qi and body move as one unit (in the same timing) they are very easy to listen to and understand. Their direction, duration etc are very obvious.

If their Yi and Qi move first and then their body it is a little harder - but their internal movement that comes just before the outer body is moved is still obvious after my few years practice (17).

If their Yi moves first and then their Qi and then their body follows it it is much harder. If I have not felt their Yi then by the time the Qi has become set in motion it is already too late for me.

If he is not lying on the ground, must he not be using muscle to counterattack gravity? If he is using muscle, how is this fundamentally different from standard training?

You know I'm not sure if I know the answer to this - but essentially I think it might be a red herring.

To feel someones intent physically requires having no intent of your own in the body - in the same way that you can't talk and truly listen at the same time. A real openness of mind and body.

Removing intent from the body makes it have a shapeless quality to it. Now I am still seeing a direct correlation between my taiji skills and how much I am able to relax. When I relax more I get better. At some point relaxing more meant letting go of structure - It seemed to need a leap of faith to do that.

Whatever my definition of Sung and Relaxation I now no longer accept it. I keep deepening both and improving. I'm not lying on the ground but I constantly use less and less muscle to stand up.

[This message has been edited by Anderzander (edited 09-16-2006).]

Anderzander · Post by **Anderzander** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:09 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by JerryKarin:
"people don't value the jade in the Kunlun mountains, they value their own trinkets", poor as they may be, "because they are of some benefit to them". Wonderful as some of these feats may be, I actually find them less interesting than the more mundane sort of practice which I do every day<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jerry does this mean -

'don't put value on things that are out of your reach, value those things that are near and useable'

or

'people don't value the greatest treasure, seeing only the value in those things that are near and already in use'

JerryKarin · Post by **JerryKarin** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:19 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Anderzander:
 Jerry does this mean -

'don't put value on things that are out of your reach, value those things that are near and useable'

or

'people don't value the greatest treasure, seeing only the value in those things that are near and already in use'

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Close to the former. I am not saying that people don't have powers like 'empty force', ie the ability to push someone without touching them. Neither am I asserting that these things exist. I haven't seen that and the tradition I am working within does not claim to do stuff like that. If that sort of thing really exists (and this is a big if) for every hundred who claim to do it, 99 are charlatans. So I would urge some caution, because we all want to believe in miracles but there are very few miracle-workers actually out there. I have found some very down-to-earth and non-mysterious martial arts practices in what the Yangs are teaching which yield undoubted benefits - and I have seen plenty of unambiguous proof of this myself - and which are accessible to virtually anyone willing to practice. To me this bird already in my hand is worth two that may or may not be out there in the bush.

Anderzander · Post by **Anderzander** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:56 am

Thanks for your reply Jerry

I actually wasn't questioning the phrase in the context of 'empty force'. Just curious as to what the accepted meaining of it was.

Both of my (hastily written) definitions have validity in different contexts.

Perhaps the thread will fare better if it remains on the use of Yi not Li rather than expand to empty force.

yslim · Post by **yslim** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:11 am

Hi Chris

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by yslim:
You was absolutely right if you "counted" the breathing and expanding the 'chongding' and the "undetected fullness" is a movement then I will rest my case. Because only the dead Taiji Masters can has no movement ( breathing for one thing)and at time could send many Chinese flying out the door when they see the dead master's spirit (shen?).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Breathing is movement, intention is movement. Any attempt to deny this must refute not only scattered anecdotal observations, but decades of Western medical science.

-----
Chris
Martial
[QUOTE]

Just to be clear my reply to this post is not tic for tac in detail that serve no value for "doing' the taiji practise,as least to my short jourary into this endless route of Taiji. But by do not reply may lead to think I show no respect for you.. So I respectfully try to clear it up for the Silent Majority out there just in case some of them may find it might be helpful to their actual PRACTICE, to experienced it instead just tic for tac walking through with out any personal PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE was given, Leaving these canned ordinary stuffs with out a key to open for the sake of practice. Of course If giving an instruction how to use with practice is a welcome one and most appreciated. Not too confused what is right/wrong. Then again in Taiji REAL PRACTICE there is no mistake as long as one PRACTICE THE NEXT THING CORRECTLY,(No you won't find it in the Taiji Classic for this quote so don't go there now) And remember this is a long jourary. I think more practice will set you free to choose which one is right for you..To count or not to count is not the question. At the end one shall do it in a one single unbroken movement maybe is the answer any way, with all the bells and whistles in it such as open/close,plus even in open psrt there should be contain a close and the close part contian an open. etc. etc.and it should be changeable as your skill expanding. If you are counting movement in your form such as 'Beginning Posture' for example with 1,2,3,4, moves,( + and - of 10%) then you can add on the 'Intention' is a movement that make 5 move and so on and so on to help your PRACTICE made easy. When this moves became your undeniable personal experience that you can openly talk about it without keep on quote thing like " 4 Oz 'push' 1000 lbs" it sounded so cool but said nothing at all HOW YOU did it or HOW you would do it,and be kind enough to share some of your own expertise? Instead keep on recycling something most of us can't use to put into our practice. Can I do it? of course not ! That what lead me to this wonderful BB. and waiting.....and I do appreciated those who can and did opened some windows for me to see HOW other are practicing what and hoping to learn something to put in my own practice. At least we can compare note to see if I am traveling in the right direction so I won't miss by a thousand miles and could not find my way just in case I have my Senior Moment.When IT BECOME OUR experience then I should if I want to throw out these extra baggage that could cause your mind to "crash" when I try to download new practical usser-friendly stuffs. I did not recall anything I said in my post any attempt to deny such Western medical science.I was just talking in a 'taiji practice' term. Are we not? Are we practice for real? or we just thread on what others had said and done but not enough substance to help and nothing of our own help our practice ? Doesn't this seen to be what happen in our neighborhood?...A dog barking at something then all dogs just barking at the sound (of the first dog)? It was not an intend to be a debate of any kind. Medical science talking is not my cup of tea nor my intlelectual in practice My Taiji.unless it is a bed-side-on-hand-practice as Chinese doctor would call it. but still limit to taiji only.

Breathing of cause is movement I can't deny it. IF I could deny it I wouldn't be here to chat with youall. Since I able to do my Taiji with out being remind by my inner voice 'don't forget to breath' and it has a mind of it own anyway(I think it label 'natually'). So I don't 'COUNT' IT AS A MOVEMENT. one less thing to count while I now practice the new thing call "Air-man" (that has no connection to the Air Force). Since breathing had became my Taiji personal experience I can always go back to the recycle ben as need. So for this reason I don't "count" (carrying) breathing, intend, and chong ding expanding as movement, while I busy on my attendion to covering my own space,and the opponent's spaces that lack of chi and I hope my breathing and intend,and chong ding can do their job on their auto mode while I looking for that magic empty force. I don't rush it will find me when it ready
I just leave the Taiji light on.

I love to have 'garage sale'on my taiji practice to rid of thing,such as too many "COUNTING" movements.To delete some unwanted movement memory chip in my mind so I will have a unclutter mind (empty one's mind) to lead the qi if and when I able to cultivated enough of it and see how the 'magic' tick. My view of Taiji training in general it is a learning process, forever changing as Taiji practice should,and as such ,"one bird in hand better than 2 in the bush" won't do for me! That work best for greedy example, but the hunger for knowledge I will go for "A stone in hand try to killed two birds" is more of my model with fun and chanllenge. one could not able to call upon the spirit with Mundane Taiji practice in Taiji. Then again each to it own..My Classic said 'practice, practice, make perfect. I will get that "two Birds with one stone in the Bush" some days and might even get that deer Vice President Dick Chaney missed, with a boulder and more Empty force.

IF I offened any one in the Wesrern medical science community. So sorry.

A thousand fong sung for me.

yslim · Post by **yslim** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:15 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by yslim:
Hi Chris

Hi

Hi

I goofed again.It was a duck that Vice President Channey missed...not a deer. Better for me yet.got three birds with one stone..Taiji hunting is the way to go

yslim

quote:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

bamboo leaf · Post by **bamboo leaf** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:28 pm

http://v2.56.com/id2001241.html

some of what has been talked about in this thread. Enjoy

Interesting to note that over and over he says do not use li, do not use your muscles this is not taiji.

(I looked at Wang Peishen's clip, and he certainly showed great skill. I must confess, however, that I did not see anything outside of what I understand to be standard theory.)

As has been mentioned what some see, is not really whats happening as shown and explined more in detail in this clip.

[This message has been edited by bamboo leaf (edited 09-18-2006).]

Bob Ashmore · Post by **Bob Ashmore** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:20 pm

In response to:
"The teachers that I know of, for the most part wish to remain privet because they understand and know that many would come to disprove, challenge or there would be so many that it would interrupt the practice. A friend once told me, that (it’s the masters world one is entering, he has passed through ours why should he again enter to prove something he knows.) This may be hard to understand for some, but I understand it. And so am very reserved when talking about it or addressing it online."

All I can say is that I've heard some wild excuses for not being willing to prove an ability you claim to have and are demonstrating in public, but this one is rich.
In a nutshell what this type of statement says is: "Just believe me for I have greater knowledge than you and so should not have to prove anything to you lesser beings."
Well, I was born and raised in a society that learns to question authority, and most especially to question any authority that won't back itself up with proof of its ability to be an authority, so I'm not buying this for one minute.
And here's why.....
If you're a "Master" and you are showing a group of folks a skill you claim to have, then you should be able to prove you have it in any way that is required. Asking someone to do that is NOT demeaning to his skill, it is simply asking that his skill be proven with no further reason to question it. In fact, someone who is not willing to prove their skill beyond a doubt really shouldn't be showing it in public and they most certainly should not be teaching it, now should they? Further, any student who DOESN'T ask his Master to prove his abilities is just the type this kind of Master is looking for...
Well, 'nuff said there...
As for taking up all of his time to do so...
Ummmmmmmmmmmmm..........? Huh?
I don't see how holding onto his shoulder, elbow, hips or knees as he attempts to do what he claims he can do would slow him down much, if at all, in this demonstration. He's showing it any way, so how's this slowing him down so much?
Also, I sincerely, highly doubt that there are just SO many doubters out there that would want to get in his way, slow him down and piss him off by asking for proof of his claims that he couldn't oblige the few and give incontrevertible proof of his Mastery of his claimed skills. You would think that he would WANT to prove beyond a shadow of anyones doubt what a wonderful, powerful, all knowing Master he is...
So I guess I'm just one of those who don't get this arguement and never will.

Where I come from we have an expression that I can't help but think of when I see or hear of this kind of argument being used to stop you from having to prove something you claim you can do.
It is blunt and to the point. I want to, up front, warn you all that will seem highly offensive, so please only read it if you have the type of sensitivity that will allow you to do so without taking personal offense, as it is not meant to offend but rather illustrate my point:
That expression is..................
DON'T READ THIS IF YOU'RE GOING TO TAKE OFFENSE (last warning for the weak hearted)
*******************************************

Either put up, or shut up.

What can I say? We're a blunt spoken, authority questioning group where I'm from.
Again, sorry if that caused any offense as it was not meant in that fashion.
If you have read the expression despite my warnings and are now angry with me...
All I have to say is, next time when someone warns you not to read something if you're going to take exception to it there's a simple solution.
Don't read it.

Bob