Yang Family Tai Chi Discussion Board

Hi All,

Just feel like sharing some PH experiences so that we can motivate one another to continue train harder. Last week, I PH with a Shaolin Ghor Choh (5 ancestors) master. He is very strong physically as he also does weight training and often train with lion head (chinese lion dance) made of steel. He have had experience PH with many taiji guys before and mostly ends in both side contesting strength in a clumsy manners. As I have been brushing-up on my taiji fajin for a while now, I thought it will be good to put it to test. Hence we engaged in friendly free style PH. At all times I refuse to use strength and engaged him with very soft touches. Whenever I see opening I will close in quickly and execute fast and short fajin sending him feets away. Then I went bolder, I changed to small circles and making full use of my waist and hips to neutralise, close-in and fajin whenever my hands touch any resistance. Again, the results were very encouraging. In the end, he was amazed and shared that he felt he was been controlled most of the time, the more he struggled with force the more critical his position became. He also shared that his strength seems to has dissappeared whenever we were close on each other. I was amazed too that he could be pushed as far as 10-15 feets away.

This is not to boost my ability, which is still far short from many masters but an evidence that taiji indeed is the `supreme ultimate' boxing if we train hard according to the true taiji principles i.e. find strength in softness instead of other way round. I was once told that Yang Ban Hou described taiji combat as kissing your opponent which means, when fighting we must be dared to move-in close to the opponent as close as though kissing. This way, we can fully exploit his weaknesses arrive from broken body structure and push him away easily. This strategy works.

Cheefatt taichi,

Thank you for sharing about this event with us. I also pushed recently with a strong physically guy. He has very little experience in PH, so he could not push me effectively. But I also had some difficulties in uprooting him. When I was going to push him directly, he just balked with all his strength and I felt like I am touching a rock. So I was impelled to change the vector of my strength and start to "swing" him (to the left and to the right in different ways). This helped but not much and I am not satisfied with the result. Could you give me an advice?
I would appreciate others comments too.

Thank you and take care,

Yuri


[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 09-20-2005).]

Hi Yuri,

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">When I was going to push him directly, he just balked with all his strength and I felt like I am touching a rock. So I was impelled to change the vector of my strength and start to "swing" him (to the left and to the right in different ways). This helped but not much and I am not satisfied with the result. </font>

A successful push is a result of good tingjin, stick, neutralization, seal and uprooting. If you don't get the precedings right your push will be less effective because your opponent will be able to resist it somewhat or retreat altogether. Watching a skilled hand push and you will notice as though there are no preset-ups preceding it but thats not true. A push is clumsy when you failed to siege that `split second' of defect in your opponent, which require good tingjin. Even when sieged, you must be able to transmit 100% of your force into your opponent in split second, which means you must be very song. A perfect combination of these will send your opponent flying all the times. Generally, you push when your opponent is moving backwards so that your pushing force can ride on his backward momentum. In other word, your push harmonize with his movement. If he is stationary or moving forward and you push, it will be less effective because your push will be agianst his body weight. Same when you swing him sideways, if he is not moving along your force, it will be less effective. To push a person 10-20 fts away, you must coordinate that push with his movement.

On a more subtle note, you don't push immediately when your palm touches him. If you do, you will hv to deal with his weight. When you touch, if it is soft you don't push because it may get neutralized. But if you felt stiffness, then gradually apply strength. This is when your tingjin and nien jin (stick) becomes very important. When you apply strength bit by bit and you felt he resist, wht shld u do? Most people will continue to push with more strength hence, the push though successfull will be clumsy and messy. From your note I guess you do that too.

What u shld do is actually to empty out just enough for his resistance to drop into empthiness. Having said that I do not mean you pull back your hands, you still stick to your target area and still applying strength however, this is not a pushing strength but sticking(nien jin) strength. Purpose is to trick him into putting more strength forward to oppose you. When he resist with strength forward, you empty out just enuf to let his strength falls into emptiness and he will subconciously pull back to stabilise himself. At this second during his retreat you add more pushing strength to destroy his balance. Once his balance and body weight is agianst him, you push with whole body sending him away.

These movements will be very obvious to naked eyes in the beginning and your opponent can feels it openly but when you become more skillful, the movements become smaller and smaller and to an untrained eye, there is no activity at all but a direct push. The skills involved are very subtle but nevertheless attainable with practise. At high level, even your opponent will not be aware of his own subconscious resistance that has been explored by you.

To achieve this you must look internal rather than external techniques. Get a partner to train with you this way...put both palms on his as in Ann. Apply a bit strength to the palms not to push but to induce him to resist. When your partner resist, adjust your pushing strength to minus his resistance with both palms still touching him with sticking jin. His resisting force will makes hin lost balance and as soon as he apply force to regain balance, you add on that force to make him overshoot his balance. Once he has overshoot his centerline you apply force to throw him out. At this point (beyond his centerline)any resistence force by opponent will actually add on to your force. Train this way until your movements become so small that almost like there have dissapp0eared.

Goodluck

Cheefatt taichi,

Thank you very much for this very informative answer!!! I'll ponder on it.

Take care,

Yuri

Greetings Cheefatt,

Your explanation is a joy to read! You obviously have a very highly-developed understanding of push hands skills.

Take care,
Louis

Yes, superb post, Cheefatt taichi!

Can any one explain this?
My son say is bull shit !!!
What say you???
Download and Open with Media Player Classic

http://us.share.geocities.com/artyeo2/c ... ipower.mpg

http://us.share.geocities.com/artyeo2/c ... power2.mpg

http://us.share.geocities.com/artyeo2/c ... power1.mpg

http://us.share.geocities.com/artyeo2/c ... power3.mpg

The links don't work. Also, please post stuff once only, not in every forum.
edit:
Well they do work in windows by right clicking and saving. I looked at the last one. The guy jumped back as though given an electric shock. Unless we know more about the clips my answer is big yawn.

[This message has been edited by JerryKarin (edited 09-22-2005).]

Hi Jerry & Louis, I admire greatly yours proficiency in Chinese. Thanks and best regards.

Hi Artyeo

Only the last link works. Looks real to me, but who is that man?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Yuri Snisarenko:
<B>Cheefatt taichi,

Thank you for sharing about this event with us. I also pushed recently with a strong physically guy. He has very little experience in PH, so he could not push me effectively. But I also had some difficulties in uprooting him. When I was going to push him directly, he just balked with all his strength and I felt like I am touching a rock. So I was impelled to change the vector of my strength and start to "swing" him (to the left and to the right in different ways). This helped but not much and I am not satisfied with the result. Could you give me an advice?
I would appreciate others comments too.

Thank you and take care,

Yuri


[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 09-20-2005).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yuri
Don't worry about uprooting as I don't think you are ready yet - keep practising on neutralizing and let as many people push you around as possible "invest in loss" - it will happen and one day everything will just click and these same people can longer push you around and you just "play with them"!!!
Obviously you must have "good form training"
Cheers

Greetings Thong,

Thank you for the advice! Actually, I came to the almost same conclusion, except that I should pay more attention to SI ZHENG practice. The form practice, I believe, is somewhat limited in perspective of progress in tuishou. For instance, I have a friend who don't practice taiji form at all (he studies another style) but practices tuishou with us. His SONG and tuishou skill still are equal to ours.

Best regards

Yuri

Hi Yuri,

Please do not take the form lightly, taiji secrets are in the form. I can attest to it and many great masters of the past attested to it too. When I said form, I am refering to the Yang Cheng Fu 10 Essentials and other principles mentioned in the Classics of Tai Chi Chuan. You can become profficient in tuishou without doing the form but your progress will be limited. Tuishou is the application of the principles found in the form and its like exam, how good is your form determine your level of skills in tuishou.

The form is important not of its movements but the tai chi principles within each movements. Pengjin and other neili and neijin all come from perfecting the internal principles within the form. Its just like practising punching and kicking which have direct relationship with ones ability to fight. However, you need to analyse and ask yourself again and again and again, are YCF 10 essentials in my so and so movement within the form? Is there pengjin in every inch, every milimeter of my movements in the form...not only at the end posture but every milimeter between the transition. Any any time within every inch of the movement can I fajin if I wish to? If you can truly understand and build-in these tai chi internal principles into your movement, your tuishaou will improve by leaps and bounce and with persistent practice you will be able to reach the highest level of `Shen Meng'.

Invest time to find real taiji in the form friend

Agreed completely

Diligent form practice is necessary.

cheefatt taichi, thank you for reminding about "pengjin in every millimeter"!

Take care,

Yuri


[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 09-23-2005).]