Yang Family Tai Chi Discussion Board

With the understanding that my personal experience with pushands has been minimal, I keep seeing this thread talking about person A pushing and person B "pulling" and this seems to be odd to me.

From the Ranking Study Material found on the main page pushands can be described as Sticking, Adhering, Connecting, and Following. Pulling to me implies pulling against a resisting force.

My (possibly horribly skewed) take on the 4 ounces overcoming the 1000 lbs is not using the 4 ounces to pull the greater weight, but that after sticking, adhering, and connecting to the greater force you can use the 4 onces to follow it to nothingness by applying one or more of the 8 energies taught in the Hand form. You are redirecting that force not pulling it along.

The listening force is used to help determine which of the 8 energies would best be used to achieve the above.


Am I understanding that correctly or just confused?

toportime wrote: ↑Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:11 am With the understanding that my personal experience with pushands has been minimal, I keep seeing this thread talking about person A pushing and person B "pulling" and this seems to be odd to me.

From the Ranking Study Material found on the main page pushands can be described as Sticking, Adhering, Connecting, and Following. Pulling to me implies pulling against a resisting force.

The listening force is used to help determine which of the 8 energies would best be used to achieve the above.

Am I understanding that correctly or just confused?

Yes, it is odd to you because of the terminology was used. Sorry to say those are told in the Chinese martial art language. And if you try to interpret as in daily English, then you will not get its true meaning. You see the Chinese never say what they mean; and never mean what they say.

1. Push means your hand is moving forward, you may not be actually doing the pushing with a force.
2. Pulling is actually you are moving the hand toward yourself, but no force was applied.
3. Connecting means the hands of both partners are barely touching. Their hands are moving back and forth but none is pushing nor pulling. There should be just a little resistance felt at the point of contact of both the hands.
4. Sticking means you should stay in contact, at all times, with the partner.

There is one way you can experiment with your hands. You put both of your hands together and have one hand push hard against the other back and forth. You will feel a great resistance on one hand. BTW This is the incorrect way. Now try with both hands barely touching each other without pushing; and then move back and forth. You should not have resistance on either hand if the hands are relaxed. Indeed, that is the correct way. If two people can accomplish this, both have done push hands successfully. Somehow, if one is feeling a great push while the other is pulling, then the partner has not reach the level to do push hands yet.

I get what you are saying, but "pull" is a specific energy in the 8 energies taught and it would stand to reason the community should strive to be more clear to help prevent further confusion in the pursuit of study in this art.

I get told I over complicate matters some times but I know I use the forms here to help better understand things and I sure others do as well.

I am somewhat picking on this term due to seeing others disparaging some "push hands competitions" for turning into pushing/pulling contests that go far from core principles we try to adhere to in practice. And then you look through and see people using push/pull as the basis for the discussion of push hands and that just seems counter productive.

Would it be better to say things like yielding to, or recieving the opponents force to better direct it to an empty space using the sticking, adhering, connecting, and following skills taught in the push hands training? Surely we could find a clearer way to discuss this, and I will admit I may not be the best to find it. I hope I am at least making some sense.

Please disregard what you were taught or observed from some competitions. The principle in training is different from what you saw out there. I don't know who taught or told you about the 8 energies. The 8 energies are executed by different parts of the body. They are methods rather than energies.
I think some people are mistakenly thought that they are actually some kind of energies. It is very difficult for westerners to grasp the push hands concept. Thus there are no good explanation out there for you to research. The confusion had already spread out there. I can only do as much as I can to explain it to each individual. Since they are confused already, it is very hard for me to explain to them.

Well I recently mentioned the 8 energies in my recent post so I can only assume you we directing that towards me. I guess only mentioning pull and calling them the 8 energies lead you to assume I thought of them as some mystical forces. Thanks for making the least amount if effort to try to determine that. I am fully aware that the "8 energies" describes physical motions made with different parts of the body, but I did reference my particlar notes of finding that information here on the main Yang Family Tai Chi site in the "Ranking Study Material" section sorry if you missed that. I can only assume you missed that with that strange tangent you went on to suggest I was under some misunderstanding on what the 8 energies are.

I will just go back to lurking and reading various posts as I must be wasting my efforts in this thead.

Toportime,

Many TJQ schools practice push-hands primarily for sensitivity. But, depending on one’s definitions of push-hands, and the purpose for the practice, the following video could be considered as a very good example of TJQ push-hands practice that incorporates much more than sensitivity training:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQsVuW7XKww

I consider the video to be a very good example, and it incorporates many pulling techniques (among many other techniques that are often not incorporated in many schools), as well as stick/adhere/connect/follow. If you view the video as being good TJQ, then I can offer some of my perspective, but if the video does not show what you consider to be good TJQ tuishou and sanshou, then I will not jump in, as my opinions probably differ from most schools and may not be what you are looking for.

DPasek wrote: ↑Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:34 pm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQsVuW7XKww

This link only opens gmail, and as I use gmail all it does is direct me to my personal account. Any other way you could possibly share the video? I would be interested in watching it thank you.

I did learn a 2 person two armed moving step pushand form years ago from the same teacher that taught me the 24 form. (Not sure why we skipped all the one handed and fixed step methods.) But shortly after learning it I had to move and have had poor luck in finding a training partner to work with. I have read through this solo push hands concept thread and would greatly appreciate any other insights in techniques that can be done alone that can help develope similar skills due to the lack of partners or easy to get to classes.

*url correctected to comply with the correction.

Sorry, try this link instead:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQsVuW7XKww

(corrected in previous post)

DPasek wrote: ↑Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:42 pm Sorry, try this link instead:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQsVuW7XKww

(corrected in previous post)

Thanks for that. That video was interesting to watch, you could clearly see a difference in skill levels between the gentleman in dark pants versus the gentleman in the pale pants. At times I could clearly see the techniques being used, but there were a few I had to rewatch to see what happened. I try to watch the footwork of others when the are going through pushands because I find it intersting to see who seems better rooted and trying to guess if that person will win in that particular instance (a few times the movements made caused the fwet to be out of frame). Overall that was a nice video to watch and I will like review it a few times.

DPasek wrote: ↑Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:34 pm Toportime,

Many TJQ schools practice push-hands primarily for sensitivity. But, depending on one’s definitions of push-hands, and the purpose for the practice, the following video could be considered as a very good example of TJQ push-hands practice that incorporates much more than sensitivity training:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQsVuW7XKww

I consider the video to be a very good example, and it incorporates many pulling techniques (among many other techniques that are often not incorporated in many schools), as well as stick/adhere/connect/follow. If you view the video as being good TJQ, then I can offer some of my perspective, but if the video does not show what you consider to be good TJQ tuishou and sanshou, then I will not jump in, as my opinions probably differ from most schools and may not be what you are looking for.

Good Morning Dpasek,
I love it! The best we have ever seen. Please do jump in to offer us your valuable perspective. Thank you for sending this link.

BTW, we want to know where you teach? N.C. ?

Ciao, yslim

The key to tuishou(推手) is one who has to understand the meaning of 柔中帶剛. The practitioner must be able perform this special feature within the practice. BTW It was developed from the continuous practice of the slow basic forms to precondition the body, in order, to perform tuishou. If one can really grasp what jin(勁) is all about, then it is very easy to understand. If not, then good luck in the future practices.

Hi yslim & toportime,

The original (wrong/gmail) link was because I had sent this video to my students [Lim: I work full time still, so I currently only teach one class a week in Pittsboro, NC; every other week is interactive weapons, the alternate weeks are weaponless - push-hands, sanshou, etc.] in order to show a principle that I refer to as “take out the slack, and then attack” in action, by someone other than me. Torportime: Videos definitely look better when the skill levels are farther apart, but both of these participants seem to me to be quite good, it is just that the one is so much better than the other.

Many practitioners, at least in my opinion, allow themselves to have deficiencies in being too slack and trying to relax TOO much when their arm is pulled (I advocate “no excess AND no deficiency”). One should understand that soft (柔) should not become weak, slack, or collapsed (deficient). This leads to the slack being taken out of that arm, and this allows the person to be vulnerable to other attacks (especially by the opponent’s other, non-grabbing/pulling, hand) as well as allowing the puller to connect to their spine through the “rope” of the pulled arm. One can see many instances in the video where the person in the dark pants lengthens the other person’s arm, and then attacks with another part of his body. In these cases he is using the pull to limit the changeability of the opponent and limit the ability to respond to an attack with another part of the body (the pull becomes a setup rather than the finish). If well placed, the pull does not need to be very forceful; it can be like a rope pulling on the nose ring of an ox or water buffalo, leading the opponent in the desired direction, which often makes them susceptible to an attack from another angle. This technique also makes the opponent “multitask” (which humans are very poor at), responding to the pull but also simultaneously having to respond to an additional attack.

Hi, toportime

The video you are seeing, here, is the application of tuishou demonstrated by a master and his student. Both had spent lots of time in practice to get to that level. Since you are not at that stage of the higher level, I think what you are looking for is the information how to get to that level. In order to master the art of tuishou, you have to train your body to do so. However, by watching and admiring the practitioners in action, in a video, will not help you to get there. Good luck in your pursue!

ChiDragon wrote: ↑Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:23 pm Hi, toportime

The video you are seeing, here, is the application of tuishou demonstrated by a master and his student. Both had spent lots of time in practice to get to that level. Since you are not at that stage of the higher level, I think what you are looking for is the information how to get to that level. In order to master the art of tuishou, you have to train your body to do so. However, by watching and admiring the practitioners in action, in a video, will not help you to get there. Good luck in your pursue!

Good Morning ChiDragon,
What!??? You should go back to bed and give your monkey mind a long rest....night night.
Ciao,
yslim

yslim wrote: ↑Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:17 pm
Good Morning ChiDragon,
What!??? You should go back to bed and give your monkey mind a long rest....night night.
Ciao,
yslim

Good afternoon, Mr Lim
We are living the same time zone. I cannot sleep that much. I am living 30 minutes from you and have tea cakes in the Harbor Seafood Village Restaurant all the time. Perhaps you would like to join me for tea and have some fun in sharing our experiences in the Tai Chi.