Yang Family Tai Chi Discussion Board

I think it is similar to phrases like ½Å¸úÏÈÖøµØ 'heel touches the ground first'.

Öø sometimes rendered ×Å, I believe both pron zhao in this context.

Thanks, Jerry. I’ve also seen instances of a phrase zhuolidian (or zhaolidian) with the meaning “focal point of one’s efforts,” or just, “focus.”

--Louis

[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 05-12-2006).]

employing strength would not enable one to listen in my experience. So I would expect a differet meaning.

Greetings Anderzander,

Re: “employing strength would not enable one to listen in my experience.”

If you take “employing strength” to mean an exertion of strength *against* the other, then I agree that would be counterintuitive in a context like this, and contrary to prescribed taiji methods. Keep in mind, though, that even standing upright and holding your arms up entails “employing strength.” If that is the meaning in the Wu Ruqing passage, the “strength” is qualified such that it is enough “only (zhi3) to listen to the other’s jin.”

If, as Jerry suggests, the meaning of the phrase zhuoli is analogous to the zhuodi construction—touch the ground—that raises the question of what the direct object is in this case. Are you touching the opponent’s strength? If so, are you touching the opponent’s strength only to listen to his jin? I’m not sure that makes sense.

So, it may be that the li in zhuoli is a figurative sense similar to its use in the phrase zhuolidian (focal point or gripping point of endeavor or effort). It would then have more to do with focus and concentration than with exertion of physical strength in the arms.

--Louis

(Touch the ground that raises the question of what the direct object is in this case. Are you touching the opponent strength? If so, are you touching the opponent’s strength only to listen to his jin? I’m not sure that makes sense.
So, it may be that the li in zhuoli is a figurative sense similar to its use in the phrase zhuolidian (focal point or gripping point of endeavor or effort). It would then have more to do with focus and concentration than with exertion of physical strength in the arms.)


It means touch the ground through your opponent. No strength is employed at all in fact the opposite is true. Ones touch should be very light enabling ones yi to penetrate down through the other. If one can feel the ground through the other then its pretty much over, for the other.
If one can not feel the ground then it means that one is floating depending on the others skill, it means nothing if both people either have no skill or concept of this.


[This message has been edited by bamboo leaf (edited 05-12-2006).]

Greetings bamboo leaf,

Re: “It means touch the ground through your opponent.”

What means that?

Re: “No strength is employed at all in fact the opposite is true.”

Well, that defies physics. For a human being to stand and suspend her arm before her requires strength, and I’m bewildered at what the opposite of that would be. (But I've heard that if the speed of light is fast, the speed of dark must be really fast.)

Re: “Ones touch should be very light enabling ones yi to penetrate down through the other. If one can feel the ground through the other then its pretty much over, for the other.”

Here, I don’t disagree, but a light touch is a touch nonetheless, and not the opposite of employing strength. The text in question, though, does not refer to feeling the ground through the other.

Take care,
Louis

(Well, that defies physics. For a human being to stand and suspend her arm before her requires strength, and I’m bewildered at what the opposite of that would be. (But I've heard that if the speed of light is fast, the speed of dark must be really fast.)

Kind of the point, physics can not describe mind or yi. Nor can it explain the ideation of movement only the movement itself. Movement requires thought first. When developed enough, the muscles act only to balancing the body allowing more and deeper relaxation or song promoting more use of mind in ones actions.

((If anyone cares to weigh in regarding the phrase shou xian zhuoli (ÊÖÏÈÖøÁ¦), I would appreciate it. The common meaning of zhuoli here is "to employ strength." But Wile translates it as "make contact," and Yang Jwing-ming as "feel the force.")


(employing strength would not enable one to listen in my experience. So I would expect a different meaning.)

as I would also

in each case the translation is through the experience and mind of the translator. I agree with Wile, and Jwing ideas, its what I do. I would not agree with the idea of employing strength.



[This message has been edited by bamboo leaf (edited 05-13-2006).]

Re: “Iit means touch the ground through your opponent.?
What means that?

It means that you can extend your yi into the other and actually feel the ground with it. at this point their balance is really gone. With a change in your focus point their balance is moved and they will tend to follow it.

//If anyone cares to weigh in regarding the phrase shou xian zhuoli , I would appreciate it.//

since classical Chinese often gives several ways to interpretation, why the author shouldn't use it deliberately ?

I read this wording in two ways -

1) "in the beginning you employ strength only to make contact with an opponent and listen to his jin"

2) I also think that complementing translation of these four characters may be "before [your] hands show strength"
Am I not mistaken here? Does grammar work in such a case? If it's ok, then one of the interpretations that I wouldn't completely throw away is "hands before displaying strength only listen to opponent's jin".


Here is another example of the similar wording in Wu Yuxiang's "Explanation of the Thirteen Shi":

ÿһ¶¯£¬Î©ÊÖÏÈÖøÁ¦£¬ Ëæ¼´ËÉ¿ª£¬ ÓÌÐë¹á´®Ò»Æø£¬ ²»ÍâÆð ³Ð ת ºÏ¡£Ê¼¶øÒ⶯£¬ ¼È¶ø¾¢¶¯£¬×ª½ÓÒªÒ»Ïß´®³É¡£

maybe it will give additional hints for the analysis.



[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 05-13-2006).]

test - hanzi to display (without choosing the encoding)

ÊÖÏÈÖøÁ¦

doesn't work even if I use windows Global IME (simpl. chinese / downloaded for officeXP )



[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 05-13-2006).]

Greetings Yuri,

Good work! We are apparently hoeing the same row. I found the same Wu Yuxiang text you mention. For those interested, here's a link to a page that has the whole text, with some other Wu Yuxiang texts.

http://www.chh.org.tw/ancient%20books/w ... ss/awd.htm

Take care,
Louis

The passage seems to have the force of:

'Let the other's hand first apply force, then I would expand open in response.'

Greetings bamboo leaf,

Re: “in each case the translation is through the experience and mind of the translator. I agree with Wile, and Jwing ideas, its what I do. I would not agree with the idea of employing strength.”

I think you and I may be talking in different corners of the teahouse. I understand what you’re getting at, and I fully agree with the rhetorical meaning that you’re suggesting. I am really trying to find the most faithful rendering of a few choice words. I think Wile’s “make contact” is probably closest to the sense of Wu Ruqing’s words. Yang Jwing-ming’s “feel the force” is kind of an extrapolation, and not as true to the source as Wile’s, in my opinion.

I think that there is a bugaboo among some taiji experts regarding any suggestion of using strength. Traditionally, there are admonitions not to use “the slightest bit of strength,” and to relax “completely.” In my experience these are rhetorical statements, and not meant to be understood in strictly literal terms. When muscles act, even if only to “balance the body” in an upright position, the action is still in fact action. Without a condition of muscular tonus, the body would just collapse into a heap. We’re told in taiji to “use intent, not strength” (yong yi, bu yong li), but in reality, the yi and the li are interdependent.

That being said, the meaning of li in the Wu Ruqing passage could be largely figurative, meaning not so much exertion of strength, but effort or action. Have a look, for example, at the line in Wang Zongyue’s Taijiquan Treatise: “Nevertheless, without an exertion of effort over time (yong li zhi jiu), one will not be able to suddenly have a thorough understanding of it.” This line is a direct quotation from the Song philosopher Zhu Xi’s commentary to the Da Xue (The Greater Learning). Yong li literally means to “use strength,” but he meant it to apply to psychological or moral effort.

As a matter of fact, Zhu Xi also used the phrase we are discussing, zhuoli, in a similar fashion. He wrote that if one is unable to first establish one’s goal, “then there is no way to exert oneself” (wu zhuoli chu—lit., no place or spot to exert strength). Zhu Xi used some very interesting terminology for subtle psychological processes, several of them employing this zhuo verb with a sort of tactile, hands-on sort of connotation. One example is the phrase “zhuo shou chu,” which he used with the meaning of “a place where one can get a grip, or purchase.” He expressed a related idea with the phrase, “xia shou jiao chu” (a place where one can find a grip and get some footing).”

These are just a few findings in my exertion of effort to clarify terms of some early taiji masters.

Take care,
Louis


[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 05-13-2006).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by JerryKarin:
<B>The passage seems to have the force of:

'Let the other's hand first apply force, then I would expand open in response.' </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Greetings Jerry,

Yes, for the Wu Yuxiang text I think that rendering makes sense. As Yuri stated, there is clearly a "first x, then y" construction here. As for whether it's the other's hand, my hand, or a generic joining of hands is less certain to me. It would work for the Wu Yuxiang text, but perhaps not so easily for the Ruqing line. There, again, I see the line about employing strength as "my" hands, and this employing of strenth as being qualified in the following line "only to listen to the other's jin."

What do you think?

Take care,
Louis

Just to add to the general arsenal of nuance, a Chinese term for adhesion is ð¤×ÅÁ¦, (nian zhuo li). Same nian as the taiji term for sticky.
--Louis


[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 05-13-2006).]