Yang Family Tai Chi Discussion Board

Greetings Audi,

I appreciate the detailled and thorough reply to my posting.

About failing, failing, don't fret or fritter, fooling, feinting, friendly fare.


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You wrote about Tampien posture:
<What you describe about the left hand seems about right to me. I am not certain about the exact location of the jin poit, but this seems close enough...the fleshy part of the side of the palm heel that first contacts the tabletop is what I use as the jin point...In order to extend into this point, your wrist must flex the palm upward in order to prevent the point from "sawing" through the intended contact point with the opponent. If one does not do this , one is using one's mind to impose an arbitrary configuration on the palm that does not comport with the enrgy usage. One is not keeping the wrist "song" ("loose") enough to mold itself in response to how the jin will move.> Audi

Thanks for the descriptions and precision.
Actually, I have heard identical location for this similar portion of the hand in relation to jin point before.
My tendancy towards the lower portion of this band is an instinctive one, and upon examinations, I have discovered that the pale red strip which accompanies this band is particularly red at the bottom portion where I tend to want to strike. A red spot almost at the junction of the wrist.
What do you know of this...distinction?
Would you say this a 'blockage' of some sort, impeding the passage to the extremity, or does the jin flow more heavily in that spot.
Spots...probably not too good. What do you think?

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You wrote:
<You must keep the tip of your elbow pointing almost straight down to the ground in order to match your energy usage, even though, for most people, this is a more difficult and more "tense" configuration to maintain.> Audi

Yes, this is definitely more difficult and "tense" for me. Practice should bring facility, hopefully.

<...All you do is extend through the jin point in every relevant joint and let your limbs line up the way they want to.> Audi

That's all, eh?
Working on it!


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You wrote:
<Psalchemist,you also mentioned the left toes. I would argue that noone in fact "extends" through the left toes; otherwise you would be trying to make your left foot skate across the ground...Of course your left toes are one of the most forward parts of your body, but this does not determine the energy relationship.> Audi

I wouldn't argue I never would have imagined that the left toes were an extension point either, simply the most forward point on my body, in that area, for that move.


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You wrote:
<About the proper relationship between the forward knee and the forward toes. I would argue that, in practice, one does not memorize an appropriate stopping point. Instead I would advise concentrating on how both legs push against each other(the rear leg thrusting/stamping and the front leg propping/deflecting the power up the spine). If you do this, you will find that if your knee goes too far, the connection between the legs gets weak. The left heel will begin to get light. The right leg loses a purchase for it's pushing power. And the left knee must just sit there and can no longer push back into the structure...All I am asserting is that one must feel for this balance at every instance of the weight shift, rather than launching oneself and then having to guess how much energy the front knee will have to exert as a stopping force. For me the essence of Taiji is dynamic equilibrium, not minimization of either yin or yang.> Audi

Excellent concept and conveyance.

Yes, you've explained this before, but I am very glad to go over it again. It is a very valuable and essential component to successful footwork skills.
I can say from present experience that this dynamic equilibrium cannot be stressed enough, many of my biggest problems stem from this issue, I'm discovering. I find it is a matter of knowing ones own body...precisely, in matters of distance in footwork. If I step too far or not far enough this disturbs my capability to transfer weight without losing my root and power generation. I think this is also a factor for me in Yun Sho...I am experiencing difficulty with width of step combined with closed kua bu, and this produces a certain 'bobbing' effect. I am working towards resolving these flaws and your mention of this dynamic has assisted me greatly in seeking out generally incorrect movement in my form practice.

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You wrote:
<My understanding of the Yang's form is that it is intended to develop a conscious feel for how your body generates and circulates jin in response to your mind's directions, rather than practicing particular patterns that are intended to be translated unchanged into other circumstances.> Audi

Are you distinguishing jin as internal force, as opposed to qi (vital life force)...is there a line which really divides jin and qi?

Again, the subtleties elude me. I see a fine line between maniputaing jin and manipulating qi, but perhaps it is this distinction between jin and qi which will bring comprehension and clarity to my perception.

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Thanks for the explanations for single whip.
I have heard spoken superficially on this borad the difference between Single Whip and Double Whip...just curious if you have any notes on it?

It IS interesting how this movement deviates in many ways from the 'norm', as you point out. Interesting posture to study!

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You wrote:
<In the Yang's form, my understanding is that you must simply extend and fold your fingers down and away from your wrist. If your wrist is flexible enough, your fingers will actually point back toward your body. The thumb also simply points downwards, with the pad against the back of the fingers, rather than pinching against the tips of the fingers.> Audi

I really like the esthetic effect of that hand position used for that posture in that manner. I find it grasps the essence of the Cranes feathers being displayed. Just my poetic fancy.

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You wrote:
<As for side to side extension, I would argue that rounding the back and rounding the crotch maintain a counterbalancing sideways extension in a posture that otherwise has an extreme front-to-back extension. Of course one also extends up through the crown of the head and down through the tailbone.> Audi

Interesting analysis of extensions into jin points.
Vertical, horizontal, forward, backward, diagonal...miss any?

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You wrote:
<Whenever I mention extension, one could also read "loosening"...Extending in one direction necessitates "grounding" in the opposite direction. Solid and empty are in each joint, but also in each set of joinyts and in the posture as a whole.> Audi

Great points to keep in mind. I find that the study of Taijiquan really broadens the perception.

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You wrote:
<I have only described extension in the context of the culmination of single whip; however, I would assert that one could go through the same analysis joint by joint, at each of the articulation points of all the postures. I count about six articulation points in single whip, where there is a major change in how the joints extend.> Audi

Excellent idea for study and documentation along with energy configuration combinations.

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Lastly, you wrote:
<I hope this is clear and helpful and explains why I assert that loosening the joints is intimately connected to jin point and how you are using your yi from moment to moment.> Audi

I can now see clearly how extension/loosening, is indeed connected to jin point locations.

However, about the yi...I have heard others say they concentrate on the sinking and loosening similarly to your allusions.

I have also heard others mention placement of Yi on martial applications.

Am I to understand from your explanations that you focus your yi solely on loosening the joints/extending as the former?

Do you ever employ yi on 'application' when practicing the form?

Are we speaking of different levels...One starts by focussing yi on the body extensions/fangsong structure, then when it is second nature focuses on other aspects, or do you still focus on the same things you focused on years ago?

Do you divide your attention at all, are you multitasking?


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Thanks for all the advice and assistance.

Best regards,
Psalchemist.

Greetings Psalchemist,

You asked about “Gong.” As I understand it, skill in Taijiquan comes more or less from a combination of three things: genetic inheritance, understanding of principles, and training (“gongfu”). Although all three are important, most teachers stress the last element the most.

The first syllable of the word “gongfu” can be “spelled” with either of two different characters that somewhat overlap in meaning. Let me explain both.

The simpler of the two characters is thought to represent a carpenter’s square (roughly like a capital “I”) and can mean the labor, work, or effort used in doing something. It is also the character used in the expression “qi gong,” which more or less means “working the Qi” and the expression “nei gong,” which more or less means “working the inside.”

The other character is the same as the first, but adds the character for “Li4” (probably a representation of a biceps), which is the T’ai Chi term for awkward “force.” This second character can mean “merit,” “achievement,” and “good results.”

When the term “gong” was recently introduced in discussions on the board (by Dorshugla?), I took this to be referring to either or both of the characters described above and to be alluding to the commonly stated caution that theoretical knowledge does not get one very far in the art. The word “gongfu” is itself commonly used in this meaning, even outside of martial arts.

Although I think the point is probably obvious, let me make an analogy. In about fifteen minutes, you can learn all there is to know about the mechanics of playing a piano and fingering the keys. It will take months or years, however, to gain any skill in playing even simple tunes.

Within this simple analogy are really two different points that, in my opinion, are crucial to differentiate, especially in the context of Taijiquan. One is relative level of skill, such as what separates a good painter from a very good painter. Another is the level of skill that separates someone who knows stroke mechanics, but cannot swim, from someone who knows no strokes, yet does know how to swim. In my opinion, this latter issue is much more important in the early study of Taijiquan than the former.

You do not attain mastery of the piano merely be learning to play more and more pieces of music. You have to learn to feel comfortable with perhaps a dozen or two different patterns (arpeggios, scales, crossing the hands, left-hand melodies, playing legato, pedaling, rapidly skipping octaves, syncopated rhythms, etc.), and then you can play just about anything. You can then refine endlessly.

In my view, most approaches to Taijiquan are the same. You have to learn a dozen or two basic techniques, and the rest is just variation and refinement.

Another aspect of “gong” in Taijiquan is that many people, including myself, believe that certain levels of theory are more or less meaningless until one reaches a certain level of skill. Language is too imprecise a tool to discuss certain things unless you have already “entered the gate.” At that point, one can have sufficient frame of reference to compare and refine and to accelerate further development.

Sometimes, even after you have “entered the gate,” language remains too crude. For example, can a swimmer profitably describe to a non-swimmer what it feels like to swim? Would a swimmer bother to do the same thing with a fellow swimmer?

Psalchemist, you asked me specifically about my punching technique and whether that was an aspect of my Gong. In all honesty, I would have to say that my gongfu in such matters is somewhat pitiful, since I do not put in the time required. I do think, however, that I have a minimal level understanding of some of these issues. Basically, you are communicating with a “swimmer” who has managed to flounder from one end of the pool to the other and who is now pontificating about how swimming differs from walking and running. I am trying to tempt non-swimmers into the pool and not trying to tell swimmers things they already know.

In contrasting the two-types of punching techniques, I was talking more about something that comes from understanding and using correct Yi, not so much about relative skill level. Once or twice in working with friends and commenting on their form, I have noticed that they seem to have been using a mind intent that was more or less the same as I used for Karate punches. In trying to demonstrate this to them, I manipulated their limbs to positions where I believed they should be able to punch using T’ai Chi techniques, but where I believed they would be unable to use Karate techniques. (I do not mean that this is necessarily evidence of Taijiquan’s superiority over Karate, since I believe I could also do the reverse.) In such positions, I believe the conflict between the two approaches becomes evident.

Psalchemist, you made some statements about the difference between internal and external arts. I am not sure I can say much about “internal arts” as a whole, but I think the party line about Taijiquan is that it differs from external arts by requiring continuous use of Jin, rather than intermittent use, and also that it generally requires whole-body Jin or Qi, rather than relying on the local presence or generation of Jin or Qi. In practice, I would also say that Taijiquan studies and makes use of configurations of potential and operative “movement energy,” rather than external limb positions. These configurations depend not only on externals, but on how you and your opponent are relating to different parts of your own bodies and of each other’s bodies.

“Know your opponent and do not let your opponent know you” is, in my opinion, not an aspiration of the system, but a basic requirement. If you opponent can perceive the configuration of your energy, with or without training, you become unable to execute techniques. The opponent will not react in the necessary way. Equally, if you do not perceive enough the opponent’s energy, there is nothing for you to act upon or make changes to. You cannot use the Eight Gates, except in a shadow, external way.

Psalchemist, you also mentioned a question about a spot on your striking palm near the wrist and whether redness there indicates a blockage. I am not sure I am qualified to diagnose, even if I could see you in person; however, here is an experiment I could suggest.

With a partner whose judgment and abilities you trust, stand in Single Whip and have him or her test your posture by gradually pushing harder and harder against your chosen spot. Any blockage should become evident as a place of vulnerability where you begin to feel pain or fear collapse.

Alter the testing by assuming the same position, but by having the person push against your little finger and send Jin down into your right heel. Even though you would not intentionally strike with the side of your little finger, your structure should be strong enough to take a great deal of force at this point. Again, any pain or sense of collapse would indicate a blockage (or possibly that your partner is pushing in a direction that is inconsistent with the usage of this posture and thus with your Yi of the moment). Also, when I speak of the person pushing harder and harder, I mean that he or she should end up pushing with almost all his or her strength and body weight.

Psalchemist, you also picked up on my mention of “tension” in keeping the left elbow down in Single Whip. Let me expand upon this, because I think my meaning may have been obscure. In my view, tension can sometimes be an indicator of improper technique, regardless of whatever else is going on. At other times, I consider tension to be irrelevant, or even an indicator of good technique. The issue for me is a matter of what is natural to you and what your intention of the moment is.

If your intent is to hold up you harm, any tension caused by rotating your elbow downward is completely inappropriate. If your intention is to use the elbow to lead Jin straight forward from the shoulder, it must rotate somewhat downward to do this. Holding your elbow up in order to do this feels artificial and unnatural. How far you can comfortably rotate your elbow downward depends on your anatomy and training, but I do not believe this is particularly important for beginning or intermediate students. What you attempt is important, not what you achieve. The configuration of the relationships is important, not the absolute results.

When I do post standing (Zhan zhuang), I feel tension in my ankles within a second or two, because this is not the most comfortable position for them. I would prefer to point my toes somewhat outward. For me, however, I do not count pointing my toes forward as an unnatural position, since I would definitely orient my feet in this way if I wanted to leap sideways. In other words, within a certain zone of comfort, the issue is one of intent. There are also excellent therapeutic and training reasons why one would also want to assume or exercise a position where your comfort and lack of tension are not maximized.

You also mentioned a bobbing effect in stepping through Bow Stances and also stepping too far or not far enough. I certainly do not understand the full implications and theorize of various stepping techniques, but here is my understanding. For the Yangs’ form, I believe that your length of stride is absolutely determined by how much you bend your right knee during the transition into Ward Off Left. There should be little scope for choice after this. The supporting knee sets the height of your body. You then stretch out your stepping, extending through the joints and through your heel. You then let your heel touch the ground wherever it can reach without your shifting even a gram of weight unto it. Once the heel touches, you immediate begin to shift your weight onto the foot and bend the ankle of your stepping foot.

To feel these force relationships, try radically raising the height of your body to shortening your stride, but feel for the exact same weight shifts. I actually have my doubts of the efficiency of this method of training, if one were constantly to train in high postures; but I nonetheless feel that the same dynamics will always be present.

You also asked whether there is a line that separates Qi from Jin, and whether manipulation of Jin is not really the same as manipulation of Qi. As I understand it, classical Chinese thought rejected the Western dichotomies of matter and energy and of matter and spirit. In classical Chinese thought, absolutely everything can be described in terms of Qi. At least for some philosophers, Yin, Yang, the Five Phases, Yi, Shen, mind, matter, form, etc. all simply represent different types of Qi. Such thinking is one of the reasons that I have always had difficulty venturing too far into speculations about Qi from a mindset that is formed by a traditional Western approach to philosophical speculations.

To be precise, I should not really say that the Yangs do not teach manipulation of Qi. What I should say is that they do not teach direct manipulation of Qi. What you are supposed to “manipulate” is your Yi or your Shen. As you manipulate your Yi, this will indirectly move and direct your Jin and Qi in a natural way. The Yangs do talk rather freely about Jin, but my impression is that this is simply as a diagnostic of what you are supposed to be doing with your Yi and because this is the form of Qi that interacts most directly and most visibly with the opponent. It is much easier to show someone how to stick to someone’s arm or Jin than it is to show how to stick to their spirit.

Psalchemist, you stated the following:

<<I have also heard others mention placement of Yi on martial applications.

<<Am I to understand from your explanations that you focus your yi solely on loosening the joints/extending as the former?

<<Do you ever employ yi on 'application' when practicing the form?

<<Are we speaking of different levels...One starts by focussing yi on the body extensions/fangsong structure, then when it is second nature focuses on other aspects, or do you still focus on the same things you focused on years ago?

<<Do you divide your attention at all, are you multitasking?>>

I find it conceptually difficult to separate putting Yi on loosening and extending the joints from putting Yi on martial application. My point was that I cannot really do the former without doing something of the latter. I emphatically agree with many who talk about focusing on applications during form, but emphatically disagree with others who use virtually the same language. Often, I am not sure what they really mean by their words. Since I have no real opponent during form, I cannot change my energy in the way I would in actual application. There is no energy dynamic to partake in. How can you really practice Adhering (“Zhan”) during Ward Off, for instance? Nevertheless, I try to be excruciatingly aware of the potential for Adhering at various points, and use my Yi to position and time my limbs to allow for this. This also has implications for the amount of pressure I want to exert against the opponent’s anatomy and why I would vary it. In this way, I might accept that I am using Adhering energy during the form.

I would also say that I am definitely multitasking during the form. As I understand it, many, if not most, of the form postures are composite positions that have multiple “meanings” and “purposes” (aspects of Yi). In some places, the Yangs explicitly require your movements to physically express the possibility of different “meanings.” Because of all these things, I try to keep both very specific and very generalized aspects to my Yi.

For instance, as I do Roll Back, I do not strongly visualize a takedown, a push, or Split, but I feel for the possibility for each and try to focus Jin very precisely in my right forearm. I have less of an understanding of what to do with my left palm and so leave the feeling more generalized there, even though I realize I could be grasping with the Tiger’s mouth, twisting, levering upward, etc. Each of these latter usages implies, for me, slightly different feelings in my left wrist, for example. I find that getting too specific leads me into territory better handled within the Yangs’ system by Push Hands or single movement practice, where you must make live adjustments to changes in your partner and where keeping a loose mind open to the realities of the moment is more important than drilling a sequence of predetermined movements.

In short, I think that using Yi involves a continuum of focus. How specific you get really depends on your ability and purposes. Again, for me the main point is not really how well you use Yi, but that you really base your movements on this concept, as opposed to something else.

Take care,
Audi

Greetings Audi,

Thank you very much for your diligent reply to my questions. I am obliged.

Said posting is being pondered and assimilated in greater detail.

I shall return with comments and questions, undoubted, shortly.

Best regards,
Psalchemist.

[This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 12-10-2003).]

Greetings Audi,

Thanks once again for the copious, detailled outpouring of information you've offered.
I appreciate your generous compliance with my requests for clarification and explanation.

Bountifull bantering.

Where to start...?
The first four lines of your posting, pages numbering five, will suffice for now!

I do so enjoy your skillfull manner of summarization...
You wrote:
<As I understand it, skill in Taijiquan comes more or less from a combination of three things: genetic inheritance, understanding of principles, and training ("gongfu").> Audi

1)Genes
2)Principles
3)Practice

Now that I've gotten that pressed into a neat little cube...Of course, then, I must EXPAND!

I can see it now...the rolling of the eyes, the frustrated sighs...!


FIRSTLY,
The ABC's of DNA...

A question pondered of longstanding...The actual implications of genetics, specifically geared from a Taijiquan perspective.
There are two aspects, within this realm of concept which intrigue my fancy.

1)Physical predisposition
and,
2)Patterns of recurrence (personal whim)


Concerning physical tendancy, penchant, natural inclination, talent for, predisposition towards...

Taking into account Louis' logic...in the physical sense (encompassing heart/mind) and also Wushuers warning about comparable differences in physical structure necessity for varying styles.

What would you deem "outstanding qualities for predisposition" residing within the Yang style Taijiquan practitioner?

Otherwise said...What makes a good Taiji player?

I understand the basics of genetic predisposition in general. If one's family has been practicing Taijiquan for generations, or any...dedication towards particular trade, career, activity...that individuals within this scope may be in part or in whole, blessed with a disposition or talent in these fields of expertise.

My second interest lies, moreover, in the specific pattern of occurence within this system.

I have noted(little investigation to repot) that there is possibly a skip in generation aptitude and interest in the art.
Possibly just a figment...but,
On several occassions I noted the art being passed not from father to son, but from grandfather to grandson...clearly bypassing a generation.

Have you noted any such so?

SECONDLY,

Principles...

In the name of summarization... within summarization...may I suggest that the principles are composed of three main elements in the Yang style.

1)Ten essentials:Yang Chengfu
2)Thirteen "Shi san shi"
3)The "extra skills" accompanying the thirteen skills.

Have I neglected any essential elements?
If so, please clarify.


LASTLY,

"Gongfu"...practice...

Thank you for your interpretations underlying this Taijiquan terminology.

Again, to condense...

GONG=work, working, labour, effort...
NEI=internal
NEIGONG= internal working
QIGONG=energy working
GONGFU=working the "fu?" ???

You wrote:
<The other character is the asme as the first, but adds the character for "Li4" (probably a representation of biceps) which is the Tai Chi term for awkward "force". The second character can mean"merit", "achievement" and "good results"> Audi

Sorry, Audi, I was unable to clarify the implications from the data you provided.

Which character do you refer to(in both cases) when you say "the other character and the second charcter"?
And, could you, if not yet accomplished in the misunderstood passage above, translate "fu", please?

Working on the mastery?

A break down of the four "fu's" would be helpful for me.

To close...
You wrote:
<Although all three are important, most teachers stress the last element the most> Audi

I have one personal comment I'd like to add to that, my own two bits...

Without a certain stress placed on learning principles in combination with practice...
How can one become song...if one is not song, then the gong, if I may, is slightly kong...but, hey, I may be wrong...

So long

Thank you
Best regards,
Psalchemist.

Greetings Psalchemist,

ABC’s, DNA, and cubes?J I do not know about others, but I prefer to think that DNA has much less of a role in determining skill in Taijiquan than other factors. For instance, some people seem to learn form faster than others, but I think blood, sweat, and tears will show more in the end than natural ability.

You ask about the "outstanding qualities for predisposition" for the Yang Style practitioner. This is a tough question. As an off-the-cuff answer I would say this. First, I would add the usual caveat that not everything called “Yang Style” is the same. Second, beyond the usual offerings, I would offer up the ability to balance “trust” with “integrity.”

I think there are many styles of Taijiquan that appear to offer up more immediate things to play with than are evident in the type of Yang Style taught by the Yangs. For instance, you do not get to play with Fajing, complex breathing patterns, fast movement, etc, especially at beginning levels. The depth of the practice and its relationship to health or self-defense are not always obvious. Because of this, it is easier to quit without learning much or easier to replace simple, but deep principles, with ones that seem more “interesting” and more “worthy” of a great art, but which may ultimately be less rewarding. Without trust in the system and in one’s teacher, balanced with “integrity” so as to keep true to oneself, I think one’s development can suffer. Mixed in here are ideas of “martial arts morality” (“wu3” “de2”?) that have been alluded to before. Without some understanding of this, it is not hard to defeat a teacher’s purpose. This is the major understanding I had of your previous reference to the student who wanted to work twice as hard and halve the necessary time to master Taijiquan. If you do not listen for what a teacher says and for what a teacher does not say, the road may be very long indeed.

As for ability skipping generations, I do not believe this. Nonetheless, I think there are many complications to parent child relationships that make it unrealistic to expect most children easily to pick up the mantle of their parents. Everyone has growing pains.

You also asked about “principles.” Let me amend my list to change “principles” to “theories.” I then might break up “theories” into three pieces.

The easiest piece to refer to is Yang Chengfu’s Ten Essentials of practice; however, to understand these, one must first understand many of the terms he uses and the context and background of his references. As I think anyone can gather from reading this board, concepts like Full and Empty have an extreme depth of meaning that will not be obvious from the mere three word phrase in which they appear (Fen xu shi). Also, there are many similar principles that are used almost as much as the Ten Essentials, or else are commonly appended to them: for instance, “shu zhi” (“extend/uncurl the fingers”), “song kua” (“loosen up the hip sockets”), “round the crotch,” etc.

A second piece I would add would be a collection of terms that underlie Yang’s Ten Essentials, but are not fully developed in his text: for instance, “Taiji” vs. “Yin” and “Yang”; “nei jin” (“internal power”) vs. “wai jin” (“external power”); “shi” (“configuration”/”disposition”/”posture”) and “de2 shi4” (“seizing the appropriate opportunity/configuration”); “rou” (“soft and resilient” vs. “ruan” (“soft and mush”); rotation vs. straightening vs. curving; etc. Without understanding what these terms refer to and why they are important in Chinese thought and in Taijiquan’s theories specifically, I think many things can be misinterpreted.

Under the third piece, I would put the specific techniques and practices of Taijiquan that are specific to the art. I would argue that Taijiquan is not the inevitable result or acme of Chinese thought and so one must understand Taijiquan’s specific viewpoints and practices to advance in the art. Among these are slow practice of the Form, Pushing Hands, the Thirteen “Shi,” Zhan-lian-nian-sui (“Adhering-Sticking-Linking-Following”), Listening (“Ting”), Understanding (“Dong”), Neutralizing (“Hua”), Controling (“Na”), Issuing (“Fa”), and stepping techniques.

Did I miss anything that is not easily derivable from something else?

As for the different things I said about “gong,” I apologize for the confusion. Let me try to provide hyperlinks to www.zhongwen.com that might explain these terms. The first “gong” can be found here: http://www.zhongwen.com/d/164/x117.htm. The second “gong” can be found here: http://www.zhongwen.com/d/165/d92.htm. “Gongfu” can mean “training,” “skill,” or even the “time spent doing something.” Its reference is not limited to martial arts and can be used to refer to the skills of a calligrapher, for instance. “Fu” is a rough synonym of one of the meanings of “gong” and helps clarify and lend subtlety to its meaning, just as the words “trials” and “tribulations” mean more or less the same thing, but have a somewhat special meaning when used together. I do not believe that “Fu” can be used as an independent word in modern Chinese, at least in this meaning.

You mentioned: “song,” “gong,” and “kong”? Not a bad pun at all, at many, many levels. Unfortunately, these words should not be pronounced so as to rhyme with “wrong” and “long,” so one can have too much of a good thing.

Take care,
Audi

Greetings Audi,

Would you believe, I just spent nigh on an hour typing a post...to arrive at the end and be told I posted too many images...I posted NO images!

To address, again, the remainder, in parts, of your , ahem, impressive posting from the seventh of December...
No small feat

You wrote:
<In my view, most approaches to Taijiquan are the same. You have to learn a dozen or two basic techniques, and the rest is just variation and refinement.> Audi

I am beginning to really appreciate that conceptual knowledge. Thanks.

You also wrote:
<Another aspect of "gong" in Taijiquan is that many people, including myself, believe that certain levels of theory are more or less meaningless until one reaches a certain level of skill. Language is too imprecise a tool to discuss certain thingsunless you have already "entered the gate". At that point, one can have sufficient frame of reference to compare and refine and to accellerate further development.> Audi

I can also appreciate the logic of that statement...However, it must be taken into consideration that this discrimination would derive from a certain knowledge and experience in the field to be capable of judging what is appropriate and what is too far advanced. So, I do appreciate your various occassional caveats. I try to take heed. Thanks again.

Best regards,
Psalchemist.

Greetings Audi,

About internal and external matters, you wrote:

<I am not sure I can say much about "internal arts" as a whole, but I think the partyline about Taijiquan is that it differs from external arts by requiring continuous use of jin rather than intermittant use, and also that it generally requires whole body Jin or Qi, rather than relying on the local presence or generation of Jin or Qi.> Audi

This seems to agree, on the whole, with my present thoughts on the subject...Thanks for the confirmation and summaraization.

On a similar note, you wrote:
<I would also say that Taijiquan studies and makes use of configurations of potential and operative "movement energy", rather than external limb positions. These configurations depend not only on externals, but on how you and your opponent are relating to different parts of your bodies and of each others bodies.> Audi

The Bagua configurations...This is something I am trying to comprehend. These configurations are intriguing and abstract, still, to my mind.

I have to learn to read the sheet music and locations of the finger positions, so to speak. Actually, more precisely, I want to play proffesionally, rather than just playing by ear, so to speak. Trigrams and hexagrams...energy configurations...interest me.

Back to square one...Describing li'l birds movements in trigrams...HOW??? (Rhetorical question......if you prefer )

Thank-you,
Psalchemist.

Greetings Audi,

Concerning the testing methods you supplied as experiments for verifying blockages,

You scribed:

<In Single Whip, have him test your posture by gradually pushing harder and harder against your chosen spot. Any blockage should become evident as a place of vulnerabiliy where you begin to feel pain or fear collapse.> Audi

That was effective, for me, I believe.

There was only a slight weakness resulting in the elbow. Do you know the significance and/or remedy for this?

Also

You penned:

<Alter the testing by assuming the same position, but by having the person push against your little finger and send jin down into your right heel.> Audi

This is one test I am not eager to repeat...It was awful...

After completing the previous test, I was not expecting such dissimilar results, but alas,...These results make me wonder if indeed, there is a possible defect therein....

Maybe it was my stance, maybe it was the test attempted incorrectly, as you mentioned, but whatever it was, I am not repeating it, as I mentioned.

Pushing against the little finger thus, created a type of chain reaction. I say hat because it began as a slight discomfort in the little finger...so I stopped the testing immediately at that point...Very glad I did, too. After halting the test, this discomfort amplified and radiated first to the base of the thumb and then up the underbelly of the forearm a spell, progressively becoming a hot burning sensation. Long lasting and unpleasant. Have you any diagnosis for and /or remedy to suggest?

Thank you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.

[This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 12-17-2003).]

Greetings again Audi,

Concerning tension, you wrote:

<In my view, tension can sometimes be an indicator of impropre technique, regardless of whatever else is going on. At other times, I consider tension to be irrelevant, or even as an indicator of good technique The issue for me is a matter of what is natural to you and what your intention of the moment is.> Audi

<If your intention is to use the elbow to lead jin straight forward from the shoulder, it must rotate somewhat downwards to do this.> Audi

<Within a certain zone of comfort, the issue is one of intent [ha, ha]. There are also excellent therapeutic and training reasons why one would also want to assume or exercise a position where your comfort and lack of tension are not maximized.> Audi

I am quite sure I understand all you imply in the domain of "tension".

I would even extend that realm of theory to include psychological aspects as well. "There are excellent therapeutic and training reasons why one would also want to assume or exercise a position where your comfort and lack of tension are not maximized". I find this is actually the best way to practice self cultivation...developping oneself beyond ones limitations can be a very, but very uncomfortable position, but this is the way to extend beyond ones "set" limitations. The uncomfortable path of self cultivation...growing pains.

Again, to involve the issue of balance...Too much tension and discomfort can lead to harm or damage, whereas not enough tension, or lack of it's employment can lead to stagnancy...Have a fear of heights...Climb a ladder...HMMMMM.....think I'm rambling again.

Thank you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.

Hello Audi,

Extending the scope of this topic,You dicted:
<For the Yangs form, I believe that your length of stride is absolutely determined by how much you bend your right knee during the transition into Ward-Off Left. There should be little scope for choice after this. The supporting knee sets the height of your body. You then stretch out your stepping, extending through the joints and through your heel.. You then let your heel touch the ground wherever it can reach without your shifting even a gram of weight unto [ ] it. Once the heel touches, you immediately begin to shift your weight onto the foot and bend the ankle of your stepping foot.> Audi

Thanks for that description. Well written and easy to conceptualize.

My limited stride in Tso Peng seriously limits my achievement of a low stance in "Xia Shih", "Snake Creeps Down", "Low Form" posture.
This movement seems directly bound with length of stride. It's partly the opening of the hips which plagues my performance...But I find that from a standstill position, with a long stance, I am able to execute said movement lower...

Maybe a stretching machine......To lengthen my stride......Getting desparate......any advice on lengthening the stride and lowering the stance would be quite welcome.

I want to train lower...just do it?...or...Are there any independant exercises which would assist in strengthening the knees, legs, (whatever needs to be strengthened) and lengthening the stance?

Thank you,
Best,
Psalchemist.

[This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 12-17-2003).]

Howdy Audi,

Continuing...

You wrote:

< To be precise, I should not really say that the Yangs do not teach manipulation of Qi. What I should say is that they do not teach direct manipulation of Qi. What you are supposed to "manipulate" is your Yi or your Shen. As you manipulate your Yi, this will indirectly move and direct your Jin and Qi in a natural way.> Audi

I think I understand what you are explaining. So, focusing intent correctly will provoke the proper or appropriate configuration necessary at the moment.

I am wondering, however, about your use of the word "natural"...

Naturally after ten years of practice???

Does the body not have to be trained to comply with the commands of the Yi and conform to those configurations...sorry...to a beginner nothing seems quite "natural" about the movements and configurations of them, yet.

Presently, in practicing, my Yi is focused on threading...I am still working the ten essentials, of course...It really has a distinct and powerful result. Sinking, song, rooting and power uprising...I am thoroughly enjoying the experience of threading (when I can manage it)

Again I am stressing, without malice of course, the fact that this is not quite natural for me as far as physical reality goes...And so provokesawe...and so provokes descriptions of sensations.
Similar, in fact, to an exuberant reaction undergone when viewing a Taijiquan demonstration for the first time...
Simply enthusiastic outpourings...I'm new in the pool.

You also stated:
<I find it conceptually difficult to separate putting Yi on loosening and extending the joints from putting Yi on martial applications.> Audi

I am beginning to understand the implications of what you describe...but not through the gate yet.


Concerning your explanations differentiating Push Hands and form intention, I agree fully with your diagnosis...I too try to be "excruciatingly aware of the potential" of an opponents presence.

I don't have enough knowledge of applications accumulated yet to have much choice in martial visualizations.
I'm still collecting the possibilities.

Thank you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.

AUDI......

LASTLY...

To complete response of your response...
I see the light at the end of the tunnel!

You wrote:
<I am definitely multitasking during the form. As I understand it, many, if not most of the form postures are composite positions that have multiple "meanings" and purposes (aspects of Yi). In some places, the Yangs explicitly require your movements to physically express the possibility of different "meanings" Because of all these things I try to keep both very specific and very generalized aspects to my YI.> Audi

I can appreciate your words...Bruce Lee calls it "Way of all ways, Way of no ways"...simply put.

As I said, prematurely, I am still collecting these possibilities.

I am looking at your reference to "some places" as a fish eyes a lure...In your opinion, are there specific postures(besides rollback) which reflect this nature of openness to all ways? Do all the postures reflect this quality equally?


You stated:

<For instance, as I do rollback, I do not strongly visualize, a takedown, a push or a split, but I feel for the poosibility of each and try to focus Jin very precisely in my right forearm.> Audi

Yes! This is actually a recent discovery (something I learned in the first months but had not entered the gate at the time) for me...The placement of the right palm, with the right attitude of receptiveness...is key to correct palm posture...There is a distinct result which occurs in the hand and forearm when done correctly which is absent when incorrect...This posture does seem to exemplify the qualities of all ways in every way. However, I do feel there is an involvement of meridian factors which perhaps even prevails and extends beyond Yi...in this particular case. A distinct feeling...

Whew...Phew...really great shew.

Thank you so much for all your efforts.

It's been quite a pleasure discussing Taijiquan with you. Looking forward to more in the New Year!

Very best wishes to you and yours in this holiday season.

Thank you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.

Greetings Audi,

Thanks once again for a great posting.

I address them line by line because they are very efficient...

You wrote:
<I do not know about others, but I prefer to think that DNA has much less of a role in determining skill in Taijiquan than other factors. For instance, some people seem to learn form faster than others, but I think, blood, sweat, and tears will show more in the end than natural ability.> Audi

Well, that is a consolation...Since I personally have no Taijiquan or martial arts genes to boast of. I too would prefer to think that merit and acheivement in Taijiquan is moreover based on th the 'sweat of the brow'. But there are others, as you mentioned, who may differ. Much of our society seems to place primary importance on lineage and seniority. I have experienced this entity firsthand, myself...I once had a full staff of five salesmen walk out without notice, quit on me, right in the middle of my first day on the job in a new store as an assistant manager. THEIR store!...This staff of five decided that it was unfair, due to seniority, that I should become their 'boss' and so just abandonned me in the new store, left to my own devices. Quite a memorable day, I say. It did demonstrate to me, however, how 'some may argue', vehemently even, that predispositions, seniority play greater roles. I am sure these elements must provide a certain edge in the attempts of the art, but in the end, as you say, it is more likely based in the application of hard work, practice, gongfu. And may I add the quality of such practice...Doing the form unthinkingly, unconscientiously, lacking quality, several hours a day , in my mind, is not as beneficial as practicing in a thoughtful, educated, dilligent manner for a couple of hours a day.

You stated:
<...the major understanding I had of your previous reference to the student who wanted to work twice as hard and halve the necessary time to master Taijiquan...> Audi

Perhaps there is slight misunderstanding...I was at the time, discussing what another had brought up. Since I've understood the reasons behind the order of the curriculum, my desire for quick advancement has dissipated. I realize that I have much refinement of the form ahead of me, and fully accept that I must acheive these before advanceing into other aspects, such as weapons. I was primarily interesed in viewing others opinions on this issue.

You dicted:
<Without trust in the system and in one's teacher balanced with "integrity" so as to keep true to oneself, I think one's development can suffer. Mixed in here are ideas of "martial arts morality" ("wu3 de2") that have been alluded to before. Without some understanding of this, it is not hard to defeat a teachers purpose.> Audi

Gee Audi, I wouldn't want to defeat my teachers purpose. I am focussing primarily on the refinement of the form through practice of corrections I receive, which is what I think I should be doing. I hope the philosophy studies are not detrimental to my curriculum. If I pick up my sabre every now and then, or employ kung fu warmups every now and then, I don't think, or at least I hope, this is not a hindrance...unless of course it were my primary focus, which it is not.

Are you alluding to the philosophy studies?

Lastly for now,
You wrote:
<As for ability skipping generations, I do not believe this. Nonetheless I think there are many complications to parent child relationships that make it unrealistic to to expect most children easily to pick up the mantle of their parents.> Audi

Yes, I agree with your parent/child deduction.

Thanks for your opinion.

Thank you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.




[This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 12-20-2003).]

Greetings Psalchemist,

I am not sure I can answer all your questions, but let me give a crack at some.

I got half way through a long post on the Eight Gates, and then thought better of it.

You mentioned the results of your Single Whip test. I am glad that you had good results the first way and hope you did not injure yourself the second time on my account. Don’t sweat the bad results, because this is not really a pass-fail test, but rather a relatively safe way of developing soundness of posture. In other words, it is something to work with, rather than to pass or fail.

As for the test of the fingers, there could be many reasons why the results were not what you would have wanted. The first thing that comes to mind is that you must begin the build up of pressure very gradually, so that you have an opportunity to feel what is going on and to adjust whatever needs adjusting. A second issue could be that the direction of the push is not right, so that you feel forced to maintain joint angles that do not match the oncoming force. It is actually quite difficult for someone to push you at the right angle. It should feel as if the push helps you to maintain structure, rather than that you have to resist or freeze much of anything. Although your fingers need to be somewhat right so as to avoid being broken during actual usage, I would advise giving up on them for now and focusing on other things.

You expressed some good thoughts about “tension.” I would also add some concrete images. “Tension” is what keeps the structure of a suspension bridge intact. A bridge with limply hanging cables is a dangerous one. “Tension” in the wrist holding a sword can make control all but impossible. During the commemoration of the Wright Brothers’ flight, I was told that one of their bold innovations was to realize that a plane should not be made of a rigid frame. Apparently, it was thought that a plane needed to be rigid to resist being battered by wind. The Wright Brothers realized that bicycle frames worked best when they could flex somewhat and transferred this idea to the frame of their plane. The “mutually restricting” tensions passing through a flexible frame allowed the plane to work with the wind, rather than against it.

You also mentioned Xia Shi/Hsia Shih (Low Posture or Snake Creeps Down). This is also one of my more troublesome postures. As I understand it, the Yangs do not require any significant depth to this posture. You can thus perform this posture without any form deduction even if you do not get your behind anywhere near the floor. I have tried to heed this and pay attention to maintaining structure rather than trying for depth. The struggle continues.

Stretching is probably a good thing. I do it regularly, although with mixed results. Exercises to strengthen the lower legs are probably good as well. I think, however, that the Yangs believe that the form itself is a good way to develop lower body strength naturally and safely. All in all, I think one is supposed to work with whatever stride length is comfortable and not strain to do something different. If you feel you are training too high, take solace in the fact that some styles of Taijiquan even stress training at a high height.

You also made some excellent points about whether natural movement is really supposed to be “natural,” especially for a beginner. This is a very, very important point. In my opinion, even for an absolute beginner, there should be naturalness about every movement or exercise attempted. The task is to unlearn irrelevant things and learn a conscious appreciation for how your body can move. You need ten years to do this consistently, but should train with the expectation that a degree of naturalness should be immediately obtainable.

A year or two ago, Jerry posted a description of a master who would position his student’s limbs and then demonstrate through posture testing that he or she could use internal power. This is what I understand to represent what the Yangs’ mean by naturally moving Jin and Qi. If you have a teacher that knows how to position your limbs and give a minimum of oral instruction, you should immediately be able to generate significant power. Before anyone rejoices at the ease of this method, one must realize that a beginner will almost certainly fail in repeating the feat on his or her own. Even though you can taste the excellence of the recipe, you can find it impossible to figure out what the key ingredients are and how to prepare them. This latter part is what takes the ten years, not the former.

I think the reason I go overboard about certain descriptions of Taijiquan is that they imply that all aspects of Taijiquan require years of arduous, unrewarding work to experience. I do not believe this to be true. I think one can taste excellent aspects immediately, with the right coaching. The rub is that one cannot become an independent chef without years of hard effort. Merely roaming about the kitchen and experimenting will not yield the best results.

Psalchemist, do you have the same Yi in performing Lifting Hands and Step Up and in Play the Pipa/Guitar? Do you use the same Jin points and do you extend your limbs in the same way? My understanding is that these postures end up in more or less the same position, but they get there by applying very different energy.

Knowing martial applications of postures can be an excellent way of learning how to perform the movements with more precision and purpose. It can, however, also be a subtle trap. Taijiquan shares “postures” and “applications” with many other arts. It is thus possible to perform many postures in the form “successfully,” using techniques and strategies of external arts. Doing this over and over again can make it difficult to understand the viewpoint of Taiji strategy and tactics. For instance, does the application include any of Zhan-Nian-Lian-Sui? Is there a moment of Na (“Controlling or Pinning down the opponent’s energy”), or does one blow right by these niceties? Does one ignore the possibility of using Enticing (Yin)? Does one really incorporate the opponent’s energy, or just rely on speed and power to succeed?

You also asked whether all postures reflect the “way of all ways, way of no ways.” My understanding is yes, but I know of only two or three postures where your actions must make this explicit. In these postures, your hand positions must show both punching intent and either grabbing intent or blocking intent (e.g., Strike the Tiger and Step Back to Ride the Tiger). Elsewhere the possibilities are more subtle or unexpressed in the way that we actually do form. A good example of the latter is that there is no Shoulder Stroke posture in the Yangs’ form, yet, as one of the thirteen basic Shi, its potential is just about everywhere in the form. Once you get a taste of push hands, these possibilities become easier to see in the form.

Psalchemist, you also mentioned the influence of “meridian factors” in Roll Back. I have no objection to this at all, my only point in talking about Qi is that focusing on such concepts is not the Yangs’ way, any more than analyzing how the triceps affects the biceps or how the pulse rises or falls in certain situations. Even though Yang Style has breathing requirements, these do not receive anywhere near the emphasis they do in other styles of Taijiquan.

If you focus on meridians, you will be tempted to try methods of accelerating Qi along these meridians; however, Yang Style talks about sinking Qi to the Dan Tian, not about radiating it out toward the limbs. I am not certain of the reason for this, but I think it relates to a theory called Reversal of Yin and Yang. Can anyone else confirm this? In essence, I think the theory calls for consciously trying to keep your Qi down in order naturally to make use of it in your upper body. Having Qi flow along meridians is something thought to happen naturally, unless you do things to interfere with it. Sinking Qi to your Dan Tian is thus Wuwei, i.e., acting through lack of action.

Lastly, you mentioned my comments about martial morality and defeating a teacher’s purpose. Please rest assured that my comments were not directed at you, but rather generally at everyone, including myself. I have definitely experienced this problem and believe I have seen it in others. One failure in my practice that I repeatedly see is the failure to try to embody concrete and simple aspects of the Ten Essentials, while spinning my wheels on other less important things. Most recently I realized that I have neglected Seeking Stillness in Motion, which has now become much more concrete for me.

More and more I believe that if you get the Ten Essentials right, everything else comes more or less naturally. The classics talk of the folly of giving up the near to go after the far and of missing in the beginning by a hair’s breadth and so missing the ultimate goal by thousands of miles. Since so much of Taijiquan is subtle, it is easy to misconstrue the importance of things and seek for explanations in the wrong place.

Take care,
Audi

Seasons Greetings Audi,

Thanks for your reply.

I enjoyed reading and pondering your explanations and confirmations...

You wrote:
<You also asked about "principles". Let me ammend my list to change "principles" to "theories".> Audi.

Excellent ammendment!


<I then might break up "theories" into three pieces.> Audi.

<The easiest piece to refer to is Yang Chengfu's Ten Essentials of practice; however, to understand these, one must first understand many of the terms he uses and the context and background of his references. As I think anyone can gather from reading this board, concepts like Full and Empty have an extreme depth of meaning that will not be obvious from the mere three word phrase in which they appear (Fen xu shi). Also, there are many similar principles that are used almost as much as the Ten Essentials, or else are commonly appended to them: for instance, "shu zhi" ("extend/uncurl the fingers"), "song kua" ("loosen up the hip sockets"), "round the crotch," etc.> Audi

A second piece I would add would be a collection of terms that underlie
Yangs's Ten Essentials but are not fully developed in his text: for instance, "Taiji" vs. "Yin" and "Yang"; "nei jin" ("internal power") vs. "wai jin" ("external power"); "shi" ("configuration"/"disposition"/"posture") and "de2 shi4" (seizing the appropriate opportunity/configuration"); "rou" ("soft and resilient") vs. "ruan" ("soft and mush"); rotation vs. straightening vs.curving; etc. Without understanding what these terms refer to and why they are important in Chinese thought and in Taijiquans theories specifically, I think many things can be misinterpreted.>

<Under the third piece, I would put the specific techniques and practices of Taijiquan that are specific to the art. I would argue that Taijiquan is not the inevitable result or acme of Chinese thought and so one must understand Taijiquans specific viewpoints and practices to advance in the art. Among these are slow practice of the form, Pushing Hands, the Thirteen "Shi", Zhan-lian-nian-sui ("Adhering-Sticking-Linking-Following"), Listening("Ting"), Understanding ("Dong"), Neutralizind("Hua"), Controlling ("Na"), Issuing ("Fa") and stepping techniques.> Audi.

1)...2)...3)...Absolutely stunning summary.

Confirming my present knowledge, while
Also,
Confirming the necessity for and quantity of material and theories to be explored.
(Thereby justifying explorations into philosophies of Taijiquan...He,he,he. )

Explorations to be had certain!

You queried:
<Did I miss anything that is not easily derivable from something else?> Audi.

Not to mine eye...

In part two, you merged "rotation vs. straightening vs curving"...I would invite you to elaborate on these subtleties, if you please.

Good naturedly, You wrote:
<You mentioned: "song","gong", and "kong"? Not a bad pun at all, at many, many levels. Unfortunately, these words should not be pronounced so as to rhyme with "wrong" and "long", so one can have too much of a good thing.> Audi

LOL!
Glad you liked it
But, once again, I am at a loss as to the reference to "many levels/meanings".
Dare I ask?...If I've not said anything too embarrassing...Could you explain my pun to me?

Also, How does one pronounce song, gong and kong correctly?

Lastly,
Thanks for providing the links for "gong"...I shall explore...

Take care,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.