Yang Family Tai Chi Discussion Board

Audi,
I love your description for upper body fajin, it's point on.
I also agree with everything you say about adding in the lower body energy; legs and hips energy, except for...
C'mon, you knew there was an "except for"...
The bit about needing to change to bow stance to do it.
I know that you know you don't need to be in bow stance to incorporate the lower body energy into fajin.
I know that you know that you can do this from Wuji stance, empty stance or even while standing on one leg.
I know that you know these things, but your post is not clear on this and I'm afraid it may cause some confusion for those who don't know these things.
So, just to clarify, fajin can be done incorporating the lower body energy in any and from all stances.
The mechanics are very similar for all of them though there are some subtle differences.

Si Kung Eddie Wu, when he would visit the Wu's T'ai Chi Ch'uan Academy I attended, would often demonstrate the very fajin technique you discuss in your post.
He would do this by standing with his back to a support beam in the school (the pillars that hold up the ceiling) and he would fajin against it with his back to show how powerful that could be.
One time he did it so energetically he knocked about a third of the drop ceiling tiles right down. We all had to scatter when they started falling around us.
Every time he did it he "dusted" the whole place, in that clouds of dust would fly from the ceiling tiles and settle all over.
There is a video of him demonstrating this on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5O2kCqevdUM
If all you want to see is the fajin from the back, start watching about the 2:45 mark.
But the entire video is worth watching, often.

Bob

Hi Bob,

Bob Ashmore wrote: I know that you know you don't need to be in bow stance to incorporate the lower body energy into fajin.
I know that you know that you can do this from Wuji stance, empty stance or even while standing on one leg.
I know that you know these things, but your post is not clear on this and I'm afraid it may cause some confusion for those who don't know these things.
So, just to clarify, fajin can be done incorporating the lower body energy in any and from all stances.
The mechanics are very similar for all of them though there are some subtle differences.

Agreed.

I was just trying to break things down simply and trying to focus on Relaxing the Waist and Containing the Chest and Pulling out the Back. I agree that the legs can be incorporated in any stance, but practicing doing so from a horse stance is probably not the best way to start.

Bob Ashmore wrote: There is a video of him demonstrating this on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5O2kCqevdUM
If all you want to see is the fajin from the back, start watching about the 2:45 mark.
But the entire video is worth watching, often.

Yes, it is a very nice video. I like the back demonstration and wish he had done the same with the chest. I also like how he incorporated some shoulder movement and showed how many of these possibilities are hidden in the form.

Take care,
Audi

Yes, his demonstrations are always good to watch. I learn something every time I watch his videos. Even if I've seen it a dozen times before there is something new that jumps out at me.
For instance, I spent quite a long time (a really, really long time actually) trying to reconcile the large arm movements on the transition into Brush Knee and Push as done in the Traditional Yang family form. After learning the Wu family Brush Knee and Push and practicing it for a very long time I was unable to wrap my mind around the use of that large, circular movement to the back before the Brushing of the Knee.
Then I watched this clip and said, "Aha! I've been doing this all along, only much smaller."
Watch right at the 2:20 mark for that bit, but as always the entire video is worth watching: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGZyiJartFk

Hey Bob,

Are you talking about the movement of the arm with the seated wrist that comes up from below? If so, my understanding of it and what I teach is that it is a type of Rollback. If your sticking is good, you can guide a punch inward and to the side, coil to change the sticking point into a grab, and and then use Pluck to set up the opponent for the palm strike.

Take care,
Audi

Hmmm....
From your description, I'm not sure we're talking about the same point in time during that movement.
The bit I'm talking about is actually the bit that starts on the video closer to 2:28, "So it's not about this..." is how he starts the demonstration.
While I think we're looking at the same transition, you're working on the downward then upward circling aspects (which I understand fairly well) while I'm working on the movement of actually settling the arm into it's "palm near the shoulder" position previous to pushing out with it.
That movement, as you can see in the video when he demonstrates the form, is done much smaller in WCC style then it is in Yang Family style. Being so much larger, I thought there would be a different primary application for it.
I don't know why....
And there most likely are quite a few different things you can do with it since it is done larger, but this one still works quite well.
I demonstrated it with my push hands class last night and it works just the same.
I spent some time trying to come up with another application for it and I was able to think of a couple that worked fairly well.
As usual, there's more than one application for it.

Bob

Hi Bob,

My explanation actually dealt with the other hand, but I think I now understand what motion you are talking about.

Master Yang once demonstrated the movement you are talking about by deflecting a kick with the downward and backward motion and then lifting the leg with the upward and inward motion. With the opponent on one leg, the forward palm strike takes on a new meaning, at least when I was on the wrong end of it. For me, this explained our arm rotation which seemed to take place with this timing only in this motion

As for these analyses in general, I think they are very interesting and often very helpful. My own belief is that our form, at least, is no longer principally designed as a series of rehearsed applications, but rather as a way of retraining body movement. In other words, I think the difference between forms sometimes results from different ideas about what motions to train, independently of the application in mind. An example is the fact that we never close our hands in a grab, and yet there are implied grabs throughout our form. In the movement in question, you get to learn how to circle with the shoulder at the center enabled by energy from the legs and body and a rotation of the elbow. A tighter circle requires different energy.

These are just my thoughts.

Take care,
Audi

Audi,
The application you mention as being shown to you by YJ is one that I have seen for several other, similar movements. I'm familiar with it and have long used it for demonstration myself though never with this particular transition.
I had thought of it before, but never applied it to this particular movement. I guess I will now.

Yes, smaller circles can, and often do, manifest different energies than larger ones.
Which is one of the reasons why I have learned to expect different applications for the same named postures between the two family styles, one small frame and one large frame, that I practice.
A lot of my students, as well as fellow practitioners, doubt me when I mention that the applications can be quite different in between the same named postures from the two family styles, however once I demonstrate how using a larger circle vs. a smaller circle during an otherwise nearly identical movement can sometimes create an entirely different response in an opponent, their doubt usually goes away pretty quickly.
It's something I am getting more and more familiar with as I progress through my understanding of the art in general.
And then sometimes, as with this movement, I find that the application can be nearly identical using any size circle.
That is what surprises me now, much more often than the other way around.
I guess I'm going to have to compare and contrast each named posture from each of my two forms and look for their similar applications as well as the applications that will work best/better or even only with larger and smaller circles.
I mean...
It's not like I've got anything better to do!
Seriously though, I don't really have anything better to do.
So I guess I'll get started.
I am teaching a "make up" applications class tonight (most of my Monday night students bailed on me this week, but they had good reasons so I'm holding the make up class) so I'll go ahead and let them work on this.
Why should I do all the work?

Bob