Yuri wrote:
<<I think that your ball analogy is perfect. But what exactly that ball in the human body is ? IMHO here is another missing point. This point is dantian. The theory and the method of dantian in the internal martial arts I (and not only me) call neigong (internal training/achievement of the internal martial arts). It has many common points to every internal MA.>>
Yuri,
Of course internal martial artists emphasize neigong, including development of the dantian. My previous post tried to stick with functional anatomy that I felt relatively confident of its accuracy. Tying in the dantian with the musculoskeletal system would lead to areas that I am much less confident or competent/knowledgeable about.
Since Yuri brought it up, however, here are some things that I have been playing mental games with in an attempt to understand the art of Taijiquan better. Maybe someone on this forum will be able to offer additional information to fill in the missing pieces that are preventing me from tying it all up into a reasonable package with the possibility of scientifically testable experiments to verify or disprove the theory.
Yang, Jwing-Ming writes about the Large and Small Intestines (located at the dantian) acting like a huge battery due to its content of a muscle type (surrounded by relatively nonconductive fascia) with higher electrical conductivity than the type that is controlled by our conscious mind (like the skeletal musculature). If we view the type of qi that we as internal martial artists work with developing, and that is in the dantian and circulating throughout our bodies while practicing and applying Taijiquan, as being bioelectricity, then this "battery" concept, if scientifically verifiable, raises interesting possibilities.
Of course skeletal muscles conduct electrical currents. Also, while not very electrically conductive, bones do have a piezo-electric field around them caused by mechanical forces (including gravity, the lack of which leads to bone loss in astronauts in space). The importance of electrical properties of bones is further supported by medical use of electric currents to aid in mending broken bones.
All this speculation about bioelectricity (& qi) seems promising, but there are several problems with it. For example, you would expect the bioelectricity/qi to travel along the meridians as mapped by traditional Chinese medicine, but I don't see any readily evident way that those routes could be followed. Even adding electrically conductive skin to bridge the gaps in the musculoskeletal conduction pathways does not seem to help significantly. Part of this difficulty is the relatively nonconductive fascia (connective tissue or extracellular matrix) that surrounds all the organs (including the Large and Small Intestine "battery") and muscle fiber bundles. Also to consider are the tendons and ligaments connecting muscles to bones and bone to bone, and which I suspect are also both relatively nonconductive, although I'm not certain of this point (does anyone else on this forum know?). These relatively nonconductive tissues would seem to impede any bioelectrical/qi currents through the body's musculoskeletal pathways.
I'm not ready to give up on this bioelectric/qi idea, however, for several reasons. Advances in TCM reinforce this idea of qi being bioelectricity. Electrical currents applied to needles used in acupuncture treatments (or even to the skin without needles) appears to enhance the treatment's effectiveness. Equipment has also been developed that can measure small differences in the skin's conductivity, and can be used to locate acupuncture points based on these differences. If similar equipment can be developed that could trace the body's conductivity subdermally and into the deep tissues and organs, then there would be a possibility of scientifically mapping the meridians.
Any material that is physically stressed (stretched or compressed) should produce the piezo-electric field similar to what I mentioned for bones. Although I have not seen any references to confirm this, I would expect that the relatively nonconductive fascia/tendons/ligaments would also exhibit this effect, and thus be able to provide pathways for bioelectricity/qi. If so, then this would mean that no single organelle (although some have clamed to find such a system in the body, I have not heard of any confirmation from other scientists to confirm their claims) would be necessary along the body's meridians. By way of analogy, the nervous system (which does not follow the meridians) operates along the lines of an electrically conductive wire (one organelle) connecting the source of the electrical current to an appliance. But lightning during a thunderstorm does not follow a single conductive material when it travels from the atmosphere into a tree, then jumps through the air to a person standing near the tree, then through the person and into the ground. The lightning is to me more like what bioelectricity/qi traveling through the body may be like, jumping from one tissue type to another as it follows routes (meridians) from one location in the body to another.
There are several other correspondences between how we view qi (and the effects of Taijiquan training) and the concept of bioelectricity and physiology. If qi can be equated with bioelectricity, then it would not be unreasonable to expect that with training a practitioner could learn to influence these electrical pathways. While qi flow in the meridians would normally not be under conscious control, other electrical signals in the body that are also not normally under conscious control can be influenced by the mind (e.g. heart rates can be decreased consciously with training), and it would not be unreasonable to expect that bioelectrical currents could be as well. Also, when we talk about condensing qi into the bones or obtaining denser bone material, there is a physiological mechanism associated with the piezo-electric effect mentioned for bones that will do this. Increased piezo-electric charges on the bones means that osteoclasts are less active in clearing up old bone while osteoblasts continue laying down new bone, resulting in tougher/denser bones over time (when the charges are increased consistently over lengthy periods of time). Joint shapes can actually change by this process to conform to the stresses produced by an exercise routine. Consistent practice of Taijiquan could, therefore, physically alter the shape of our joints and produce tougher bones to conform to the way we use our bones during the practice of this art. If an increased bioelectrical/qi current is also produced by the practice of Taijiquan, this could likewise effect the process described for the stress produced piezo-electric changes.
Now back to the basketball analogy. The center of the ball is also its center of mass, just like the center of mass in the average human body is within the dantian region. Since the ball is a sphere, all contraction and expansion would be from this center. Humans, not being spherical, and having bones that disrupt the body's ability to act as a single unit, would typically not contract and expand from this center of mass without training. But training (e.g. Taijiquan) would allow a person to learn to integrate their structure into a unified unit resulting in the responses coming from and being directed by their center of mass (i.e. the dantian). Also. While the ball does not have a mind, we could say that because of its spherical shape filled with air (qi, of course), it has the intent of maintaining that spherical shape. Then with the bounce effect analogy we could say that the intent leads and the effect produced by the air (qi) follows as a result. But perhaps that is stretching the analogy too far.
The above ball analogy takes the entire body as the ball. The dantian itself is also often considered to be a ball (especially with Chen style dantian rotations). We could view this as a ball within the larger body ball. 'Reverse breathing' in the dantien seems to enhance the ball analogy, as well as the center of mass contracting/expanding experience. Physiologically the expanding/contracting/revolving of the dantian ball could be stimulating the flow of bioelectricity/qi currents from the Intestinal 'battery' to the rest of the body. This stimulation would be reasonable if the Intestines are moved around and the fascia is stretched and relaxed during these dantian movements.
Whew! This has been a long post! Did I leave anything out?
Oh, one last thing. My experiences tend to indicate the bouncing of a partner/opponent comes from the dantian as in the above discussion and ball analogy, but I have not conferred with other practitioners to see if their experiences match mine. If Kal manages to read through this post to this point, perhaps we could hear how the dynamics of the bouncing out of a partner is perceived from Kal's perspective/experience.
DP
Bouncing
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Anderzander
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I feel a bit cheap making such a short post after all of your efforts.....
In my experience the kind of Qi referred to in the classics is gravity - not the TCM sort of Qi.
I have gone into it a bit more here though....
http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/ubb/For ... 090-2.html
[This message has been edited by Anderzander (edited 12-09-2004).]
In my experience the kind of Qi referred to in the classics is gravity - not the TCM sort of Qi.
I have gone into it a bit more here though....
http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/ubb/For ... 090-2.html
[This message has been edited by Anderzander (edited 12-09-2004).]
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Yury Snisarenko
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- Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:01 am
Yuri wrote:
<<I have a couple of Mr. Jwing-Ming's books and can say that I have the different view point on the theory of dantian. I try to seek most answers in the traditional daoist approach since we heard somewhere that taiji has daoist origins. Daoist inner alchemy (neidan) has the strict theory of developing dantian. I can't represent it here since I haven't got complete understanding of it. Maybe someone could point out good articles or translations on the topic.>>
I certainly did not intend to imply that what I was presenting was somehow meant to contradict traditional Daoist approaches. Scientific theories come from, and depend on, our experiences. In fact, I am drawing on my experiences with (and understanding of) qi and its cultivation when developing the theories that I posted earlier. Please, if you or anyone else that reads these posts has personal experiences that contradict or otherwise don't seem to fit with my theories, then point them out. Likewise for any experiences recorded through Daoist practices or TCM. Additional information is the only way that I can make changes to the theories to improve them (or abandon them for other theories). Just the attempt at applying scientific theories to the practice of Taijiquan (and qi cultivation, etc.) does not negate the experiential approach. Just because we can't yet demonstrate scientifically the existence of qi, or show scientifically what is happening when qi is cultivated/trained, does not mean that it does not exist. I personally suspect that it is simply that our scientific understanding has not progressed sufficiently, as well as not yet having the tools/equipment developed that would allow us to accurately detect and study the phenomenon of qi.
DP
<<I have a couple of Mr. Jwing-Ming's books and can say that I have the different view point on the theory of dantian. I try to seek most answers in the traditional daoist approach since we heard somewhere that taiji has daoist origins. Daoist inner alchemy (neidan) has the strict theory of developing dantian. I can't represent it here since I haven't got complete understanding of it. Maybe someone could point out good articles or translations on the topic.>>
I certainly did not intend to imply that what I was presenting was somehow meant to contradict traditional Daoist approaches. Scientific theories come from, and depend on, our experiences. In fact, I am drawing on my experiences with (and understanding of) qi and its cultivation when developing the theories that I posted earlier. Please, if you or anyone else that reads these posts has personal experiences that contradict or otherwise don't seem to fit with my theories, then point them out. Likewise for any experiences recorded through Daoist practices or TCM. Additional information is the only way that I can make changes to the theories to improve them (or abandon them for other theories). Just the attempt at applying scientific theories to the practice of Taijiquan (and qi cultivation, etc.) does not negate the experiential approach. Just because we can't yet demonstrate scientifically the existence of qi, or show scientifically what is happening when qi is cultivated/trained, does not mean that it does not exist. I personally suspect that it is simply that our scientific understanding has not progressed sufficiently, as well as not yet having the tools/equipment developed that would allow us to accurately detect and study the phenomenon of qi.
DP
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Kalamondin
- Posts: 309
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 7:01 am
DP!
We are on the same wavelength
There actually have been many scientific studies in recent years about qi, bioelectricity, electo-magnetism, geo-magnetism, and biophysics in relation to the human body. The stuff you were talking about resonated with a book I was reading last night: it’s called “Energy Medicine: The Scientific Basis” by James L. Oschman. It’s rather pricy, but my library had it. Here’s a link to it at my favorite bookstore: http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?i ... 43062617-1
I have the book at home, and after reading yesterday’s discussion on the “Sung” thread (Miscellaneous) I wanted to read up about muscles and qi, so that’s what I did last night. Anyway, Oschman is a cellular biologist and this book is a review of all the recent literature (as of publication in 2000) on bioelectricity (including piezoelectric currents and magnets for healing bone breaks that don’t knit), qi, energy medicine, geomagnetic influence, etc. etc. More citations on the subject than I ever dreamed were possible. I’ll try to summarize what he was saying, but I’m not a scientist, so if you see anything egregiously wrong, just chalk it up to poor recall/understanding on my part.
Oschman addresses the electrical conductivity of various body tissues, and suggests that the body has an alternate bioelectric system that has nothing to do with nerve impulses. Surrounding each nerve are para-nervous (?) tissues (I forget the name) that also conduct electricity, but operate on direct current—semi-conductors. Unlike conductors or resistors where the current is on or off, a semi-conductor can have a controlled and variable amount of current: I’ll bet this part of how qi can be increased or decreased with the mind.
The bioelectric current that we associate with qi flows through the semi-conducting portions of the body, which also can store electricity. The meridians correspond to the flow of bioelectrical energy through the body’s larger tensegrity matrix. A tensegrity matrix is composed of alternating elements of tension and compression—like a construction crane. I think he said something like this: the changing pressures on the system generate piezo-electric energy that flows through the para-nervous system, and through the gel that surrounds all of our cells. The pathways (meridians) don’t correspond to specific physical structures in the sense of being “wired” like the nervous system because the whole structure is the electrical system.
Each part of the body is jacked into the whole, with qi reaching each and every cell—but there are areas where the flow is stronger (meridians) and places where it gets stored (qi storing organs, the dan tiens). Because of the structural array, electrons are shared several atoms in the vicinity (or was it the whole thing?), allowing for extremely rapid transfer of information--faster than nerve impulses. I’ll bet this is the physiological/bioelectrical basis for the adage “strike second, arrive first.” We train to listen to the opponent’s chi, similar to bioelectricity, and can eventually “hear” the intention—possibly before the opponent’s nerve impulses that say “punch” or “push” ever reach his hands.
There was more stuff about kinds of electricity that the physicists don’t understand well yet, including scalar vectors, and something else—things that have an influence on particles in the absence of an electric field or a magnetic field. And that somehow, these scalar vectors may be the means of transmitting information non-locally, or by means we cannot measure with instruments made of metal and silica yet.
Maybe it was Oschman, or maybe it was elsewhere, but I read that we have to be careful about saying that qi is bioelectricity. Bioelectricity can be a correlate of qi (that is, present and proportional when qi is present), but there are other things that are also correlates of qi and have been measured scientifically: heat, light, sound. So we can’t say that qi is just bioelectricity, but I think we can say that bioelectricity is present when qi is present.
Bioelectricity is probably the strongest track we have right now for studying qi. The measured electromagnetic field emitted from the hands of internal martial artists or qi gung practitioners is 1,000 times stronger than the electromagnetic field of the heart, and 1,000,000 times stronger than brainwaves. The heart has the strongest electromagnetic field in our bodies and pulls our entire system, and often other people’s systems into entrainment. (Entrainment is when a stronger wave pulls other waves into the same frequency/harmonic oscillation, ie, being on the same wavelength.) I’m sure there’s a connection here to the Chinese idea of the heart-mind.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
Any material that is physically stressed (stretched or compressed) should produce the piezo-electric field similar to what I mentioned for bones. Although I have not seen any references to confirm this, I would expect that the relatively nonconductive fascia/tendons/ligaments would also exhibit this effect, and thus be able to provide pathways for bioelectricity/qi.
…
Also, when we talk about condensing qi into the bones or obtaining denser bone material, there is a physiological mechanism associated with the piezo-electric effect mentioned for bones that will do this. Increased piezo-electric charges on the bones means that osteoclasts are less active in clearing up old bone while osteoblasts continue laying down new bone, resulting in tougher/denser bones over time (when the charges are increased consistently over lengthy periods of time). Joint shapes can actually change by this process to conform to the stresses produced by an exercise routine. Consistent practice of Taijiquan could, therefore, physically alter the shape of our joints and produce tougher bones to conform to the way we use our bones during the practice of this art. If an increased bioelectrical/qi current is also produced by the practice of Taijiquan, this could likewise effect the process described for the stress produced piezo-electric changes. </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Again, see Oschman for a more detailed discussion of piezo-electric fields through semi-conducting tissues. Of course there is piezo-electric-field—generating pressure put on the bones in the course of our weight-bearing tai chi exercise, and the physical stresses put on our bones in push hands practice apply too. But I’d like to suggest that perhaps this field can be generated on the basis of intent alone (yi). In Waysun Liao’s translation of the tai chi classics, he’s included some hand-drawn pictures of his understanding of qi and the various jins. When he talks of condensing qi into the bones, he’s drawn a picture that looks like pressure on the bone leading to a flow of chi (piezo-electric current?) along the length of the bone. This drawing/compressing chi into the bones is done with the mind, the intent (although I imagine this can be done without yi for those who are at the stage of “regulating without regulating”).
OK, back to the body as a tensegrity structure: the dantien is the _ ideal _ center of gravity, but in the course of a twisty push hands bout, that precise center is shifting all over the place and isn’t always in the dantien. I think the dantien operates on at least two levels, structurally: it IS the center of our tensegrity structure and we can train ourselves to be aware of it, maintain it, and direct expansions and contractions from it. Even if we are doubled over, or stretched out, we can be aware of the dantien as a structural center. But the dantien, as conceived as a single center point (there are other ways of thinking of it, I’m getting there), has no particular structure: there are no bones there, no major muscles, just soft viscera, right? The tensegrity structure of the body, composed of bones, muscles, ligaments—even down to tissue layers, cells, mitochondria—operates around this “empty” center (like the hollow space in the toys). The tensegritoys have a structural integrity that has more to do with their “struts and joints” than air pressure (like a ball or balloon).
The dantien is also thought of as the entire waist area, perhaps extending to the edge of the energy bodies—it is the cinnabar _ field _ after all. But I also think the dan tien operates like the air-filled center of a ball, only its qi we’re filled with. I feel qi as something physical. I’m not saying it is, but I experience the effects physically and have no other way to describe it. Qi is the “air” inside our “ball.” The tai chi literature cautions us not to be “collapsed” and I believe it’s pung energy, radiating from the dantien, centered in it, that assists us in maintaining our structure.
We are also advised to sink our chi to the dan tien. This has a distinct effect on our physical structure and the location of our center of gravity. When our chi is up, we are like Audi’s image of a balloon squeezed at the bottom—all the volume of air goes to the top. When our chi is up, we are top heavy and our structure isn’t balanced and round.
There are all sorts of things that affect our current state of “inflation” or “deflation:” our health, how tired we are, the physical traumas we hold in our bodies, our emotions, our duration of tai chi practice, to name a few.
The requirement that we “suspend the head-top” helps us maintain tension to counteract the compression that gravity exerts. For example, it’s perfectly possible to be aware of the dantien and be centered there and still have all the joints too compressed by failing to suspend the head-top. Suspending the head top gives us more space for all the joints to move freely and adds a springiness to the structure that can’t be had through sinking the chi, centering the weight, aligning the limbs, or rooting alone (or in combination).
Well, it’s a bit rambly and scattered, but I’m having some trouble focusing right now, so I’ll just call it a day, post this for the sake of keeping the conversation going, and maybe edit later.
Best,
Kal
We are on the same wavelength
There actually have been many scientific studies in recent years about qi, bioelectricity, electo-magnetism, geo-magnetism, and biophysics in relation to the human body. The stuff you were talking about resonated with a book I was reading last night: it’s called “Energy Medicine: The Scientific Basis” by James L. Oschman. It’s rather pricy, but my library had it. Here’s a link to it at my favorite bookstore: http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?i ... 43062617-1I have the book at home, and after reading yesterday’s discussion on the “Sung” thread (Miscellaneous) I wanted to read up about muscles and qi, so that’s what I did last night. Anyway, Oschman is a cellular biologist and this book is a review of all the recent literature (as of publication in 2000) on bioelectricity (including piezoelectric currents and magnets for healing bone breaks that don’t knit), qi, energy medicine, geomagnetic influence, etc. etc. More citations on the subject than I ever dreamed were possible. I’ll try to summarize what he was saying, but I’m not a scientist, so if you see anything egregiously wrong, just chalk it up to poor recall/understanding on my part.
Oschman addresses the electrical conductivity of various body tissues, and suggests that the body has an alternate bioelectric system that has nothing to do with nerve impulses. Surrounding each nerve are para-nervous (?) tissues (I forget the name) that also conduct electricity, but operate on direct current—semi-conductors. Unlike conductors or resistors where the current is on or off, a semi-conductor can have a controlled and variable amount of current: I’ll bet this part of how qi can be increased or decreased with the mind.
The bioelectric current that we associate with qi flows through the semi-conducting portions of the body, which also can store electricity. The meridians correspond to the flow of bioelectrical energy through the body’s larger tensegrity matrix. A tensegrity matrix is composed of alternating elements of tension and compression—like a construction crane. I think he said something like this: the changing pressures on the system generate piezo-electric energy that flows through the para-nervous system, and through the gel that surrounds all of our cells. The pathways (meridians) don’t correspond to specific physical structures in the sense of being “wired” like the nervous system because the whole structure is the electrical system.
Each part of the body is jacked into the whole, with qi reaching each and every cell—but there are areas where the flow is stronger (meridians) and places where it gets stored (qi storing organs, the dan tiens). Because of the structural array, electrons are shared several atoms in the vicinity (or was it the whole thing?), allowing for extremely rapid transfer of information--faster than nerve impulses. I’ll bet this is the physiological/bioelectrical basis for the adage “strike second, arrive first.” We train to listen to the opponent’s chi, similar to bioelectricity, and can eventually “hear” the intention—possibly before the opponent’s nerve impulses that say “punch” or “push” ever reach his hands.
There was more stuff about kinds of electricity that the physicists don’t understand well yet, including scalar vectors, and something else—things that have an influence on particles in the absence of an electric field or a magnetic field. And that somehow, these scalar vectors may be the means of transmitting information non-locally, or by means we cannot measure with instruments made of metal and silica yet.
Maybe it was Oschman, or maybe it was elsewhere, but I read that we have to be careful about saying that qi is bioelectricity. Bioelectricity can be a correlate of qi (that is, present and proportional when qi is present), but there are other things that are also correlates of qi and have been measured scientifically: heat, light, sound. So we can’t say that qi is just bioelectricity, but I think we can say that bioelectricity is present when qi is present.
Bioelectricity is probably the strongest track we have right now for studying qi. The measured electromagnetic field emitted from the hands of internal martial artists or qi gung practitioners is 1,000 times stronger than the electromagnetic field of the heart, and 1,000,000 times stronger than brainwaves. The heart has the strongest electromagnetic field in our bodies and pulls our entire system, and often other people’s systems into entrainment. (Entrainment is when a stronger wave pulls other waves into the same frequency/harmonic oscillation, ie, being on the same wavelength.) I’m sure there’s a connection here to the Chinese idea of the heart-mind.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
Any material that is physically stressed (stretched or compressed) should produce the piezo-electric field similar to what I mentioned for bones. Although I have not seen any references to confirm this, I would expect that the relatively nonconductive fascia/tendons/ligaments would also exhibit this effect, and thus be able to provide pathways for bioelectricity/qi.
…
Also, when we talk about condensing qi into the bones or obtaining denser bone material, there is a physiological mechanism associated with the piezo-electric effect mentioned for bones that will do this. Increased piezo-electric charges on the bones means that osteoclasts are less active in clearing up old bone while osteoblasts continue laying down new bone, resulting in tougher/denser bones over time (when the charges are increased consistently over lengthy periods of time). Joint shapes can actually change by this process to conform to the stresses produced by an exercise routine. Consistent practice of Taijiquan could, therefore, physically alter the shape of our joints and produce tougher bones to conform to the way we use our bones during the practice of this art. If an increased bioelectrical/qi current is also produced by the practice of Taijiquan, this could likewise effect the process described for the stress produced piezo-electric changes. </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Again, see Oschman for a more detailed discussion of piezo-electric fields through semi-conducting tissues. Of course there is piezo-electric-field—generating pressure put on the bones in the course of our weight-bearing tai chi exercise, and the physical stresses put on our bones in push hands practice apply too. But I’d like to suggest that perhaps this field can be generated on the basis of intent alone (yi). In Waysun Liao’s translation of the tai chi classics, he’s included some hand-drawn pictures of his understanding of qi and the various jins. When he talks of condensing qi into the bones, he’s drawn a picture that looks like pressure on the bone leading to a flow of chi (piezo-electric current?) along the length of the bone. This drawing/compressing chi into the bones is done with the mind, the intent (although I imagine this can be done without yi for those who are at the stage of “regulating without regulating”).
DP, I think my understanding is similar to yours. Audi and I have written a bit about the dan tien and a balloon analogy in the Mind Intention topic in the Theory and Principles forum (a little bit in 8-22-04, but more in 9-02, 11-18, and 11-24), but I think I can say more about it here. Over there my focus was, well, more mind intention, so here I’ll speculate about structure.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> My experiences tend to indicate the bouncing of a partner/opponent comes from the dantian as in the [below] discussion and ball analogy, but I have not conferred with other practitioners to see if their experiences match mine. If Kal manages to read through this post to this point, perhaps we could hear how the dynamics of the bouncing out of a partner is perceived from Kal's perspective/experience. </font>
I think your analogy is pretty close to my understanding of it. I’ve been thinking also about balls, and balloons, but I think it’s time we took a page from Oschman’s book and started thinking about the body as a tensegrity structure in addition to being like a ball. Here are some neat toys that are round AND tensegrity structures. http://0-0-0checkmate.com/DesignScience ... _Toys.html Note: I have no financial connection with any commercial site I post links to. Just about everything I come up with is the result of a Google search mid-composition.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> Now back to the basketball analogy. The center of the ball is also its center of mass, just like the center of mass in the average human body is within the dantian region. Since the ball is a sphere, all contraction and expansion would be from this center. Humans, not being spherical, and having bones that disrupt the body's ability to act as a single unit, would typically not contract and expand from this center of mass without training. But training (e.g. Taijiquan) would allow a person to learn to integrate their structure into a unified unit resulting in the responses coming from and being directed by their center of mass (i.e. the dantian). Also. While the ball does not have a mind, we could say that because of its spherical shape filled with air (qi, of course), it has the intent of maintaining that spherical shape. Then with the bounce effect analogy we could say that the intent leads and the effect produced by the air (qi) follows as a result. But perhaps that is stretching the analogy too far. </font>
OK, back to the body as a tensegrity structure: the dantien is the _ ideal _ center of gravity, but in the course of a twisty push hands bout, that precise center is shifting all over the place and isn’t always in the dantien. I think the dantien operates on at least two levels, structurally: it IS the center of our tensegrity structure and we can train ourselves to be aware of it, maintain it, and direct expansions and contractions from it. Even if we are doubled over, or stretched out, we can be aware of the dantien as a structural center. But the dantien, as conceived as a single center point (there are other ways of thinking of it, I’m getting there), has no particular structure: there are no bones there, no major muscles, just soft viscera, right? The tensegrity structure of the body, composed of bones, muscles, ligaments—even down to tissue layers, cells, mitochondria—operates around this “empty” center (like the hollow space in the toys). The tensegritoys have a structural integrity that has more to do with their “struts and joints” than air pressure (like a ball or balloon).
The dantien is also thought of as the entire waist area, perhaps extending to the edge of the energy bodies—it is the cinnabar _ field _ after all. But I also think the dan tien operates like the air-filled center of a ball, only its qi we’re filled with. I feel qi as something physical. I’m not saying it is, but I experience the effects physically and have no other way to describe it. Qi is the “air” inside our “ball.” The tai chi literature cautions us not to be “collapsed” and I believe it’s pung energy, radiating from the dantien, centered in it, that assists us in maintaining our structure.
We are also advised to sink our chi to the dan tien. This has a distinct effect on our physical structure and the location of our center of gravity. When our chi is up, we are like Audi’s image of a balloon squeezed at the bottom—all the volume of air goes to the top. When our chi is up, we are top heavy and our structure isn’t balanced and round.
There are all sorts of things that affect our current state of “inflation” or “deflation:” our health, how tired we are, the physical traumas we hold in our bodies, our emotions, our duration of tai chi practice, to name a few.
The requirement that we “suspend the head-top” helps us maintain tension to counteract the compression that gravity exerts. For example, it’s perfectly possible to be aware of the dantien and be centered there and still have all the joints too compressed by failing to suspend the head-top. Suspending the head top gives us more space for all the joints to move freely and adds a springiness to the structure that can’t be had through sinking the chi, centering the weight, aligning the limbs, or rooting alone (or in combination).
Well, it’s a bit rambly and scattered, but I’m having some trouble focusing right now, so I’ll just call it a day, post this for the sake of keeping the conversation going, and maybe edit later.
Best,
Kal
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Kalamondin
- Posts: 309
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 7:01 am
Hi Stephen,
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
The other way would be to channel their force down through your body into the ground, breaking their root, moving under their centre of gravity (without being compressed by their weight) and releasing the force you have stored.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Neat. I'll have to work on that one. I was doing more of a horizontal circle, I think, but I supposed I did have to be just enough under his center to break his root or it wouldn't've worked. I didn't really feel like I was getting under him the way one might with shoulder energy. When you channel the opponent's force into the ground, do you then allow it to rebound back and augment the force you're using to break the root and get underneath? Is that what you meant by "force you had stored?"
And regarding breaking someone's root: were you saying that channeling force into the ground is one way to break someone's root? Or was that a sequence: first ground, then break root?
Thanks!
Kal
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
The other way would be to channel their force down through your body into the ground, breaking their root, moving under their centre of gravity (without being compressed by their weight) and releasing the force you have stored.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Neat. I'll have to work on that one. I was doing more of a horizontal circle, I think, but I supposed I did have to be just enough under his center to break his root or it wouldn't've worked. I didn't really feel like I was getting under him the way one might with shoulder energy. When you channel the opponent's force into the ground, do you then allow it to rebound back and augment the force you're using to break the root and get underneath? Is that what you meant by "force you had stored?"
And regarding breaking someone's root: were you saying that channeling force into the ground is one way to break someone's root? Or was that a sequence: first ground, then break root?
Can you explain a bit more about what you mean by attraction and repulsion? Are you talking about bio-magnetism here? Sticking? Or just someone pushing (attraction) and getting bounced out (repulsion)?<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">IE the vertical circle - where you can bring the attraction and repulsion stages closer and closer together until they appear almost simultaneously.</font>
Thanks!
Kal
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Kalamondin
- Posts: 309
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 7:01 am
I don't really understand this stuff about making the opponent fall into emptiness yet. What emptiness? What does that mean? Can you explain a little more please? What's going on with their chi? Their center? Their root? when you lead them into emptiness.
My old post:
(he instructed us to think of our hand (or whatever’s making contact) as a lead blanket—soft, conforming perfectly to the shape and direction of the opponent’s movement, utterly compliant, but slightly heavy so that everything the opponent tries to do is made just a little bit harder)
Then you said: "instead of harder I would think making it attract the force so that you can lead it would be a better way of looking at it. 4oz, very, very light with just enough so that he follows. to light and your running away, they will follow this as it is really empty, to heavy and he knows you and will find your empty spot. the basic idea is that you know him and he doesnt know you."
When I said, "that everything the opponent tries to do is made just a little bit harder" I meant "more difficult" instead of hard in the sense of tense or heavy enough for them to find one's center. When someone is doing this it really feels like you are wearing a lead blanket, or one of those drapes they make you wear when getting x-rays. You can still go anywhere you want, it's just more difficult, as though you were wearing chain mail, or weights...but they are still light enough to follow you anywhere, so you can't find them exactly because they are going everywhere you go.
Kal
My old post:
(he instructed us to think of our hand (or whatever’s making contact) as a lead blanket—soft, conforming perfectly to the shape and direction of the opponent’s movement, utterly compliant, but slightly heavy so that everything the opponent tries to do is made just a little bit harder)
Then you said: "instead of harder I would think making it attract the force so that you can lead it would be a better way of looking at it. 4oz, very, very light with just enough so that he follows. to light and your running away, they will follow this as it is really empty, to heavy and he knows you and will find your empty spot. the basic idea is that you know him and he doesnt know you."
When I said, "that everything the opponent tries to do is made just a little bit harder" I meant "more difficult" instead of hard in the sense of tense or heavy enough for them to find one's center. When someone is doing this it really feels like you are wearing a lead blanket, or one of those drapes they make you wear when getting x-rays. You can still go anywhere you want, it's just more difficult, as though you were wearing chain mail, or weights...but they are still light enough to follow you anywhere, so you can't find them exactly because they are going everywhere you go.
Kal
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bamboo leaf
- Posts: 188
- Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 7:01 am
(I don't really understand this stuff about making the opponent fall into emptiness yet. What emptiness? What does that mean? Can you explain a little more please? What's going on with their chi? Their center? Their root? when you lead them into emptiness.)
http://qi-journal.com/Taiji.asp?-Token. ... 0Ya%20Xuan
(Externally you should use the waist and the spine as the axis; be completely centered. Internal/ external, upper and lower parts all become one. With this there is something whose wonder is beyond understanding.
Seek coordination of the upper and lower. This is the beginning step of practice. Next, try to sense gingerly, look for something very light, flexible, like cotton - soft.
This is the middle level skill. Finally, seek the empty and nothing in there. This is the last research focus. When your body is light and flexible, there is still something there. If you reach the level of empty and nothing, then actually everything will follow your intention. This really is reaching the most wonderful, mysterious level.)
Another way of looking at it. Empty full, open close.
Emptiness, is the absences of substance. What does this mean? On one level it means you lead the physical body removing your center their center becomes yours they lose their connection with the ground. Do it slowly they will either step forward or back ward to regain it. Do it faster they will bounce out as they feel like their falling and reflexively jump back to regain their balnce.
This is one level, the next level is leading the yi. The mind.
This is where light, agile and sensitive come into play. These qualities arise out of reaching a point where . (This is the last research focus. When your body is light and flexible, there is still something there. If you reach the level of empty and nothing, then actually everything will follow your intention. This really is reaching the most wonderful, mysterious level.)
Your really dealing and working with intention or the yi. It is at this point where you can say that you are not using force, as you truly are not. It is also the same point that causes the most confusion for those seeing videos of it inaction or watching others using this. the confusion last until one touches some one who has reached this level of practice. It then becomes wonderment of how it was done.
i should also mention that with people working at this level their tends to be alot of laughing while pushing as each falls into and jumps out of holes the other has left.
http://www.imperialtaichi.com/
http://www.searchcentertaichi.com/
2 web sites that show the same events, but explain them in slightly different ways.
david
http://qi-journal.com/Taiji.asp?-Token. ... 0Ya%20Xuan
(Externally you should use the waist and the spine as the axis; be completely centered. Internal/ external, upper and lower parts all become one. With this there is something whose wonder is beyond understanding.
Seek coordination of the upper and lower. This is the beginning step of practice. Next, try to sense gingerly, look for something very light, flexible, like cotton - soft.
This is the middle level skill. Finally, seek the empty and nothing in there. This is the last research focus. When your body is light and flexible, there is still something there. If you reach the level of empty and nothing, then actually everything will follow your intention. This really is reaching the most wonderful, mysterious level.)
Another way of looking at it. Empty full, open close.
Emptiness, is the absences of substance. What does this mean? On one level it means you lead the physical body removing your center their center becomes yours they lose their connection with the ground. Do it slowly they will either step forward or back ward to regain it. Do it faster they will bounce out as they feel like their falling and reflexively jump back to regain their balnce.
This is one level, the next level is leading the yi. The mind.
This is where light, agile and sensitive come into play. These qualities arise out of reaching a point where . (This is the last research focus. When your body is light and flexible, there is still something there. If you reach the level of empty and nothing, then actually everything will follow your intention. This really is reaching the most wonderful, mysterious level.)
Your really dealing and working with intention or the yi. It is at this point where you can say that you are not using force, as you truly are not. It is also the same point that causes the most confusion for those seeing videos of it inaction or watching others using this. the confusion last until one touches some one who has reached this level of practice. It then becomes wonderment of how it was done.
i should also mention that with people working at this level their tends to be alot of laughing while pushing as each falls into and jumps out of holes the other has left.
http://www.imperialtaichi.com/
http://www.searchcentertaichi.com/
2 web sites that show the same events, but explain them in slightly different ways.
david
Hi Yuri, Kal, and everyone else,
Yuri,
By the way, could you give some context to your quote? I do not remember it off hand and am not sure how to interpret it.
Kal,
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Audi said:<B>
In other words, even if one were to use a grabbing technique, one would exhibit a resilience that would force him or her to augment the power of the grab, just as if you were pulling on a rubber band that snapped back. The same would apply to Press, Push, Roll Back, etc. To accomplish this, one must often “follow” past the point that would at first seem necessary to “win.”</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you are using Peng to “transform” the opponent’s technique, you will usually use some sort of circle. In the first part of this circle you drain the opponent and store energy. In the second part, you release energy and circulate it back into the opponent. If he is stuck (i.e., “doubled up” or “double weighted”), he cannot deal with what comes back to him.
I talked about “seeming excess,” because I believe I have a tendency to abandon zhan-nian (more or less “sticking”) and go for what I perceive to be the jugular. This is a violation not only of Sticking and Adhering (“zhan-nian”), but also of Linking and Following (“Lian-Sui”).
Some of the “shock” in receiving a push from advanced practitioners is that one often feels the Jin leave one’s body, concentrate in the opponent’s body, and than return through a vulnerable spot. For me, this is a combination of “transforming,” “sticking-adhering,” and Peng.
Take care,
Audi
Yuri,
Yuri, you are correct. I had forgotten about this “jie1.” This particular word has always been a little difficult for me, both inside and outside of Taijiquan. It is not clear to me whether the underlying meaning stresses going out to meet something or allowing something to come in and make contact.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Yuri said: I would like to clarify my last post. When I talked about jie jin actually I meant "jie1" that means "to extend", "to connect" and "to receive". There is a phrase in taiji theory "jie jin is fa jin, fa jin is jie jin".</font>
By the way, could you give some context to your quote? I do not remember it off hand and am not sure how to interpret it.
Kal,
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Audi said:<B>
In other words, even if one were to use a grabbing technique, one would exhibit a resilience that would force him or her to augment the power of the grab, just as if you were pulling on a rubber band that snapped back. The same would apply to Press, Push, Roll Back, etc. To accomplish this, one must often “follow” past the point that would at first seem necessary to “win.”</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My original understanding of “neutralizing” in Taijiquan was that one used softness to neutralize an opponent’s technique and to create an opening that one could use for attack. I still accept such descriptions, but see them as potentially deceptive. Phrased in this way, such tactics seem to match hard-style theories, which I believe to be different. I now prefer to view “neutralizing” as “transforming,” which immediately provokes the question: “Transforming into what?” The Chinese word “hua” can mean to “neutralize” or “dissolve,” but I think it also has an underlying meaning of “transform.”<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Kal asked: Hmm, can you explain more about following to seeming excess? I don’t quite follow you there.</font>
If you are using Peng to “transform” the opponent’s technique, you will usually use some sort of circle. In the first part of this circle you drain the opponent and store energy. In the second part, you release energy and circulate it back into the opponent. If he is stuck (i.e., “doubled up” or “double weighted”), he cannot deal with what comes back to him.
I talked about “seeming excess,” because I believe I have a tendency to abandon zhan-nian (more or less “sticking”) and go for what I perceive to be the jugular. This is a violation not only of Sticking and Adhering (“zhan-nian”), but also of Linking and Following (“Lian-Sui”).
Some of the “shock” in receiving a push from advanced practitioners is that one often feels the Jin leave one’s body, concentrate in the opponent’s body, and than return through a vulnerable spot. For me, this is a combination of “transforming,” “sticking-adhering,” and Peng.
Take care,
Audi
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Yuri Snisarenko
- Posts: 205
- Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:01 am
- Location: Russia
Greetings to All
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Audi:
<B>
By the way, could you give some context to your quote? I do not remember it off hand and am not sure how to interpret it.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
With pleasure.
To me, Jie1 relates to an action like catching a ball (as in basketball). So Jie1 (receiving) with Fa1 (issuing) can be explained by an analogy of a hit in volleyball, to be exact that one which comes up as a result of the interaction between the player's structure (when he stands prepared) and the kinetic force of the incoming ball. In order to bounce off the ball the player must somewhat extend his arms in the direction of the ball's flight, then connect with it, then redirect it. This movement may be very short and springy.
Zheng Manqing described it well in his "13 Chapters". I'll put a short excerption from that book in Chinese and in English (B. Lo's translation) below. The last sentence says that the swallowing (tun1) (i.e. receiving) and the issuing (literally 'spitting out' tu3) are carried out almost simultaneously. Therefore some practitioners say 'jie jin is fa jin'.
Take care,
Yuri
[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 12-25-2004).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Audi:
<B>
By the way, could you give some context to your quote? I do not remember it off hand and am not sure how to interpret it.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
With pleasure.
To me, Jie1 relates to an action like catching a ball (as in basketball). So Jie1 (receiving) with Fa1 (issuing) can be explained by an analogy of a hit in volleyball, to be exact that one which comes up as a result of the interaction between the player's structure (when he stands prepared) and the kinetic force of the incoming ball. In order to bounce off the ball the player must somewhat extend his arms in the direction of the ball's flight, then connect with it, then redirect it. This movement may be very short and springy.
Zheng Manqing described it well in his "13 Chapters". I'll put a short excerption from that book in Chinese and in English (B. Lo's translation) below. The last sentence says that the swallowing (tun1) (i.e. receiving) and the issuing (literally 'spitting out' tu3) are carried out almost simultaneously. Therefore some practitioners say 'jie jin is fa jin'.
Take care,
Yuri
[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 12-25-2004).]
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Yuri Snisarenko
- Posts: 205
- Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:01 am
- Location: Russia
In order to view the Chinese characters below you must switch to GB encoding. Please note that a couple of the characters may be wrong due to my mistyping.
É¢ÊÖ (by ZMQ)
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[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 12-24-2004).]
É¢ÊÖ (by ZMQ)
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[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 12-24-2004).]
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Yuri Snisarenko
- Posts: 205
- Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:01 am
- Location: Russia
San Shou
( by ZMQ)
San Shou means free fighting. There is no definite method to it. Both T'ui shou [Push Hands] and Ta Lu issue from familiarity with the correct touch. From familiarity with the correct touch you will learn to t'ing chin [listen to strength]. After learning t'ing chin, you will gradually comprehend tung chin [understanding strength]. After comprehending tung chin, nothing any longer seems touched or not touched, scattered or not scattered, adhered to or not adhered to, followed or not followed. All are unnecessary explanations. They do not touch on the main point. The way of San Shou is located in the Five Elements and called chin, t'ui, ku, pan, ting. If you can tung chin and know the technique, then the application is complete. I followed Professor Yang for seven years and only one chin was difficult to learn. It was chieh chin (jie jin) [receiving chin]. If your achievement reaches this level, then you do not have to worry about the other kinds of chin. The explanation of chieh chin is found through the analogy of someone throwing a ball to hit me. If I resist the ball or hit it, it will bounce out. This is the chin of colliding and is not chieh chin. If the ball is light, it will be easy to bounce it out. However, if the ball's weight is several hundred pounds, how can I bounce it out? Hence, colliding is not correct. You must attract it and then toss it out. This is chieh chin. If the ball is moving slow or fast, or is light or heavy it is still the same. Chan [adhere], t'ing [listen], t'I [raise], fang [discharge] are all in it. Combine attraction and discharge almost simultaneously.
( by ZMQ)
San Shou means free fighting. There is no definite method to it. Both T'ui shou [Push Hands] and Ta Lu issue from familiarity with the correct touch. From familiarity with the correct touch you will learn to t'ing chin [listen to strength]. After learning t'ing chin, you will gradually comprehend tung chin [understanding strength]. After comprehending tung chin, nothing any longer seems touched or not touched, scattered or not scattered, adhered to or not adhered to, followed or not followed. All are unnecessary explanations. They do not touch on the main point. The way of San Shou is located in the Five Elements and called chin, t'ui, ku, pan, ting. If you can tung chin and know the technique, then the application is complete. I followed Professor Yang for seven years and only one chin was difficult to learn. It was chieh chin (jie jin) [receiving chin]. If your achievement reaches this level, then you do not have to worry about the other kinds of chin. The explanation of chieh chin is found through the analogy of someone throwing a ball to hit me. If I resist the ball or hit it, it will bounce out. This is the chin of colliding and is not chieh chin. If the ball is light, it will be easy to bounce it out. However, if the ball's weight is several hundred pounds, how can I bounce it out? Hence, colliding is not correct. You must attract it and then toss it out. This is chieh chin. If the ball is moving slow or fast, or is light or heavy it is still the same. Chan [adhere], t'ing [listen], t'I [raise], fang [discharge] are all in it. Combine attraction and discharge almost simultaneously.
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Louis Swaim
- Posts: 1390
- Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 7:01 am
- Location: Oakland, CA
Greetings Yuri,
This is Ben Lo’s translation of the San Shou essay, correct? There is something curious about this text. Zheng Manqing was known to use the phrase “tifang” elsewhere, but if you look at the Chinese here, the order of the terms is slightly different from Lo’s translation, and the characters “ti” and “fang” do not appear as a compound term. Wile’s translation of this essay in his Advanced T’ai-chi Form Instructions book has, “. . .sticking, listening, and uprooting will all come naturally.” By using the word “uprooting,” he seems to take the compound meaning of “tifang.” It is certainly the implied meaning, given the context, but I’m curious why Zheng’s text lists the terms discretely, so that tifang is not used as a compound.
I’m also not sure that the “he” is verbal here. I render the last two sentences something like:
"Hence, zhan (adhere), ti (lift), ting (listen), and fang (release), already exist at its core (yi zai qi zhong). The techniques of unite (he), swallow (tun), and spit (tu), all obtain in an instant (sha na jian)."
Take care,
Louis
This is Ben Lo’s translation of the San Shou essay, correct? There is something curious about this text. Zheng Manqing was known to use the phrase “tifang” elsewhere, but if you look at the Chinese here, the order of the terms is slightly different from Lo’s translation, and the characters “ti” and “fang” do not appear as a compound term. Wile’s translation of this essay in his Advanced T’ai-chi Form Instructions book has, “. . .sticking, listening, and uprooting will all come naturally.” By using the word “uprooting,” he seems to take the compound meaning of “tifang.” It is certainly the implied meaning, given the context, but I’m curious why Zheng’s text lists the terms discretely, so that tifang is not used as a compound.
I’m also not sure that the “he” is verbal here. I render the last two sentences something like:
"Hence, zhan (adhere), ti (lift), ting (listen), and fang (release), already exist at its core (yi zai qi zhong). The techniques of unite (he), swallow (tun), and spit (tu), all obtain in an instant (sha na jian)."
Take care,
Louis
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bamboo leaf
- Posts: 188
- Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 7:01 am
If you can do it what does it matter what he wrote or anyone writes you know it, the meaning is clear. If you cant do it trying to discern it though some ones writings seems almost impossible.
I think most writings are only valuable if your already pretty close to the level where you could do it with out them.
just some thoughts
happy holidays
david
I think most writings are only valuable if your already pretty close to the level where you could do it with out them.
just some thoughts
happy holidays
david
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Louis Swaim
- Posts: 1390
- Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 7:01 am
- Location: Oakland, CA
Hi david,
Re: ‘If you can do it what does it matter what he wrote or anyone writes you know it, the meaning is clear.’
Of course knowing how to “do it” is the crucial thing.
What does it matter what he wrote? Well, he took the trouble to write quite a bit about taijiquan, so if I’m going to read it, I like to try to read with the same sort of deliberation that was applied in the writing.
Take care,
Louis
Re: ‘If you can do it what does it matter what he wrote or anyone writes you know it, the meaning is clear.’
Of course knowing how to “do it” is the crucial thing.
What does it matter what he wrote? Well, he took the trouble to write quite a bit about taijiquan, so if I’m going to read it, I like to try to read with the same sort of deliberation that was applied in the writing.
Take care,
Louis