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I'm not sure what you mean by this second part of your post. Could you elaborate?<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Without human's mind, a whirl can display its own nature.</font>
.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Couple-force can only cause an object to rotate, but cannot cause it to shift [position]</font>
Doesn't the above description apply more to a case of "translation" (i.e., motion from point to point) than to rotation around a single point? If memory serves, Yang Zhenduo stresses that Parting Wild Horse's Mane trains Wardoff Energy and is thus different from Flying Diagonal, where Split Energy is trained.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I see this as referring to two different ways of using this rotational force in application. If we think of the form Parting the Horse's Mane, one application is to pull the opponent's wrist (pluck, or cai)with the top hand and then when their body is pressed against the bottom forearm apply lie and let go of the wrist to launch the opponent away. This is the fisrt half of the poem. Another way to apply the form is to set up the technique as before but not to let go of the wrist, in which case the forward arm with the rotation of the waist forces the opponent over your leading leg and into a takedown. This is the second half of the poem, the sucking down of the fallen leaf.</font>
Yes, in the case of the first example, but no in the case of the second. But also I'm not really equating this with the force-couple description in mind as I think this may be a red-herring. This is in relation to the poem about lie.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> Doesn't the above description apply more to a case of "translation" (i.e., motion from point to point) than to rotation around a single point?</font>
Yes, good point. I've been taught to use this strategy in push hands but regarded it as a change from lu to another technique. (To all - This prompts me to wonder what I would classify techniques such as this (examples from the form might be Raise Hands Upwards)in terms of the 8 jins, but perhaps thats for another thread of its own. Maybe we should have a thread on each jin?)<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Actually, if you don't pull the opponent at the last minute. Two results will take place. One is that the opponet can't not stop himself and fall down. The other is that the opponent stops himself. That means he is using the opposite strength. At this stopping point,if you can feel in advance, you just turn the opposite way, your hand just follow the trend back. Then you can see what will happen to the opponent. By doing this way, without using the mind,namely,pulling, you are doing naturally.</font>
Yang Zhenji’s attribution of Liejin puzzled me at first, since I had always thought about this technique as Lujin. In pondering this issue further, the tentative conclusion I have arrived at is that Lujin involves converting the opponent’s inside “connection of energy” into a lateral expression of energy. All the instances I can thing of at the moment seem to involve waist rotation.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Why, in the drill described by Yang Zhenji, is what you call "Lie is rotating" not actually roll-back (as is usually given for either the one- or two-handed versions of this drill)? What do you feel differentiates liejin from lujin?</font>
DP, I am not sure why the rotation of the palm is itself the defining action here. Could you explain? It seems that you are defining Lujin and Liejin by the motion of the opponent’s body. Why is the rotation of the palm a key aspect of this? If I would attribut any particular Jin to the palm turning over, I would attribute An.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> I feel that the palm turning up could result in either lujin or liejin, depending on how it is expressed/applied.</font>
In the way I was taught, it seemed that hooking the wrist was not just a matter of losing efficiency, but of destroying the effectiveness of the technique.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> I personally consider the hooking of the wrist backward to be unnecessary for effectively executing the technique, and I prefer to maintain the rounded shape of the arm such that the opponent would tend to "slip off" on a tangent whichever direction their force issues (toward the elbow or toward the fingers) without being able to obtain purchase (as the bent wrist could allow if not careful) for applying any techniques against me.</font>
When I was taught the drill, I was told that lowering the elbow is advantageous, but outside the parameters of the drill. I think our drill isolates a horizontal circle that is inconsistent with lowering the elbow. In other words, we do the drill as if the arms were sliding across the top of a table with the wrists and elbows trying to maintain constant contact with the top of the table.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The combination that I described in the earlier post of lowering the elbow and rotating the palm up has a "sealing" effect on the opponent's arm that puts your arm in a superior controlling position without telegraphing much to your opponent.</font>
I think we have a similar approach. I tend to think in terms of a single force that has the two aspects you mention. Where we may or may not differ is that I try to think of the characteristics of the force itself independently of what generates it or what effect it has.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Does it matter to you if a Taijiquan energy is illustrated by the generating force or its resulting effect on the opponent? I tend to use both, depending on the context, and which may be less confusing in a particular illustration.</font>
Louis, I agree with this and think we are trying to explore the same territory. One way I try to do this is to pick one instance I am reasonably sure about and try to find the macrocosm in the microcosm. There are, however, dangers to such an approach; and it is certainly not the only valid learning style.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> That is why I think it is better to think of the thirteen shi not as “postures,” but as root configurations. I don’t think that they were originally conceived as particular postures or movements, but more to an implied impetus and objective.</font>
DP, Are you talking about actions that involve no rotation? If so, can you give an example of what you mean by “absorb/project”?<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> Using liejin as an example, calling it a simultaneous push/pull or absorb/project illustrates the generation of the force </font>
I would tend to agree that every waist turn does not imply much Liejin. For instance, as far as I know, all Yang stylists perform the Rollback in the form with one or more waist turns. It would be surprising if this move was actually designed to be a primary application of Liejin. I do wonder, however, whether Liejin requires “imparting spin force” to the opponent. I think you have to spin a portion of the “string” of energy that connects you with the opponent, but I do not think the opponent must spin himself. As I mentioned above with Wardoff, I think it is also possible to make the opponent spin without using Liejin.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> But something like "spin force" could be confusing depending on the context since a practitioner performing Lujin could interpret their waist turn and thus their spinning body to be "spin force" even if it is not used to impart a "spin force" on the opponent (which I consider necessary for it to be called liejin). </font>
When I first heard this, it was also quite a surprise to me and different from what I had originally been taught. Now that I think about it, I believe the Association’s drill is described as something like “horizontal circling,” rather than single-arm circling. Because of this, I think the emphasis is truly on the horizontal plane to the exclusion of other planes. Similarly, the four-hand drill is described as “vertical circling,” because the circles must be distinctly vertical in character. My understanding is that there are many, many different types of circling, and one of the aims for training is to be able to smoothly transition between the various types.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> Finally, I was not considering the drill where the elbow and wrist are restricted to the same horizontal plane since I have never been taught that way. Thanks for bringing this method to my attention. </font>
“Torque” is a nice simple word that is just mysterious enough to make English speakers think. By the way, for those who might not be native speakers or near-native speakers, you should know that “torque” is not an everyday word. To me, it is a scientific term that refers to the physics of motion. I think of it as “twisting force.”<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> Still, I’m kind of attracted to the rendering of lie as “torque.” </font>
Rich, I think I even prefer this formulation, because it tells us to look for some sort of twist as the basis for what is done, but implies there is more. For example, as I mentioned in another post, it was made clear to me that Liejin requires a certain delicacy or exactness in the application speed. Another example would be not to assume that the local twisting of the opponent’s left arm in a move like the Rollback in the form is enough to characterized the entire application as emblematic of Liejin. In Rollback, the twist merely sets up the effectiveness of what comes next. The twist itself does not uproot, move, or injure the opponent.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> lie is torque based </font>
I also have been taught that mixing the jins is indeed supposed to be fairly typical of Taiji applications.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> First though, I do agree that itÕs useful to break down the single arm push hands sequence into push, ward off, rollback/split/pull to get a better idea of the forces (jins) involved, and I also agree that there is a point where the jins do all blend together and itÕs impossible to say where one ends and the next begins. </font>
I find it interesting that you examine this sequence from the perspective of one technique. I tend to be a splitter, rather than a joiner, and so prefer to examine it as a series of different possibilities that are somewhat mutually exclusive. I can think of peng/pung in this situation only as you describe it above. The other three, I think of as sequential possibilities, each of which could theoretically be emphasized, but not simultaneously or in the same cycle.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> A more complicated example of liejin might be a combination of pung to attract, lu to smooth, pull to draw in, and finally liejin to rend. In that example, IÕm actually thinking about one of the basic applications of lu (most likely on YJÕs DVD) with the addition of split at the end. This is more like the whirlpool analogy of drawing something in while rotating around a central core. </font>
