Yang Family Tai Chi Discussion Board

Greetings RCV,

Sheaf of paper...suspended.

Psalchemist.

Louis:

Let me give it a try. I think that focusing on a target, such as a candle, while executing a strike can help a practitioner hone the ability to release energy through a relaxed body. Focusing on beginning the energy in the feet, up through the legs, directing it with the waist, and manifesting it in the hands - through to the candle flame - is in harmony with the Classics. The drill is certainly not a prerequisite to developing skill, but it is fun, and the flame does provide immediate feedback. The few times I have done the drill I have learned that restricting energy through tension makes it difficult to extinguish the flame or to make it flicker, which is valuable.

Gene

Ah, Louis,
I see where you were going now. My bad.
I misunderstood you.
Again, I don't wish to be promoting a type of training that the Yangs don't use. If this is something that they frown on, don't do it.
This is only one in a long line of fa-jing training applications that I learned from the Wu family disciple who is my Sifu. It's my particular favorite, it's relatively easy, it's cheap, it takes no special training beyond the form training and basic breath co-ordination, it's fun, it gives people a sense of where they are in their martial application of the forms they've learned, that's why I mentioned it.
I sometimes forget that not all styles of TCC teach these things in the same way.

If you want nicely blueprinted, physics and biology compatible reasonings behind why this works, I simply can't help you. I'm an electronics geek, not a physics major or engineer.
It works if I follow the principals I was trained to use in TCC motion, that's all I know.
I've heard all kinds of things about jing and chi putting out the flame, and it may be. I feel it's the air pressure caused by my appendage traveling through the air, delivering power precisely to one small point in space and then stopping, the air pressure keeps moving, the "power" transmits to the candle flame, the flame goes out. If that's "jing" or "chi", then there you go.
Why would I train this? To be able to determine if I can precisely deliver power at a very small point in space using the movments of TCC as I have been trained. It's a way to test your skill, I guess you could say, without having to punch a real person.
After all, if you can hit that exact spot you need to hit in to extinguish those candles, time and time again, especially when you work your way up to putting out an entire ring of candles in a circle around you as you step and turn and issue in different places, at differnt heights and with different methods of delivery...
You can pretty much deliver that precisely controlled powered against your opponent wherever he may be.
And... it's fun.

Again, I haven't trained with this particular excersize in a long time, and my skill level didn't deteriorate very much at all. I've ALWAYS had trouble putting out that flame with one finger. It's never been easy for me. That I would have to retrain to reach that level again after that amount of time off doesn't surprise me one bit. I would have been more surprised if I hadn't had to do so.
So the skills your are using to do this can just as easily be trained in other ways. Less showy, less jing depleting to the practicioner, but certainly no less effecient.
It's not "necessary" it's not "vital" it's probably not even important to TCC training overall in any way.
But, when all is said and sifted, it is a fun exercise.
That's the bottom line for me.
If I'm not having fun, what's the point?

Greetings Gene,

You wrote:
<The drill is certainly not a prerequisite to developing skill, but it is fun, and the flame does provide immediate feedback. The few times I have done the drill I have learned that restricting energy through tension makes it difficult to extinguish the flame or to make it flicker, which is valuable.>

Excellent points you've stated.

Noting the tension impedance is simply one benefit...one can glean many interesting insights with indirect training methods.

Thank you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.

Psalchemist,
I'm not sure I agree with your description of the candle exercise as an "indirect training method", especially if you're training TCC as a martial art, but certainly it is also direct if training for health.
It's a very direct method to determine how accurately you are following the principals of movement that relate to both the martial and health.
If you're not able to put out the flame then there is a defect in how you're performing that particular form at its martial timing. If you're not performing a movement correctly at its martial timing then there's a very good chance you're not performing it correctly at all. In fact, from the perspective of former, highly respected instructors with which I've trained, if you aren't doing a form correctly at it's martial speed then you most definitely aren't doing it right at all.
If it's a punch you're delivering and the candle doesn't even flicker when you deliver that punch then you've just shown, as directly as can be shown, that you have a defect in your punches martial application that can almost always be traced back to incorrect form practice or, as previously stated, the state of sung in which you are in, which is, right down on it's slimy underbelly, an issue with your personal form (your body or state of mind).
Delivering jing (fa-jing) is vital to the martial uses of the TCC forms, I think we'd all have to agree on that (or not?). This candle trick shows pretty conclusively if you're able to deliver that jing correctly.
Even if you're not training TCC as a martial art this is still a nice test to see if you're actually getting any of those health benefits that are touted so heavily (and should be).
The way I understand it the principals of movement are the same whether you train for optimal health or optimal martial ability, because what you're trying to do, either way, is to move chi freely throughout your body which can then either be used strictly for it's nice healthy glow or so that it will manifest as jing in martial apps.
So, if you can show you are moving the chi by manifesting it as jing in this exercise, than you can be pretty darned sure about receiving chi's maximum health benefits.

In short,
If you can show you can fa-jing, you can pretty well assume you're circulating chi efficiently.

Would I recommend this for beginners?
Not a chance.
Why?
They couldn't do it, so would become frustrated quickly and possibly exhaust themselves trying.

Agreed!!!!


Also, a begginer may use too much muscle whn doing fah jing and could end up hurting himself! I know a guy who messed up his back that way!

Greetings Wushuer,

Thanks for your explanations.

It is a direct method...yes...your right.
Correction duly noted.


<<If you can show you can fa-jing, you can pretty well assume you're circulating chi efficiently.>>

Even beyond being a Taijiquan practitioner...Are we all (life) not possessed of chi and does it not circulate at all times.

When you say circulating qi more efficiently....
Are you speaking more specifically of a quicker circulation?

I have heard of blockages...but have you heard anything of speed of qi?


Thank you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.

[This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 03-16-2004).]

No, nothing like that. I'm not a chi expert, in any sense, I just know what I've been told. (I don't know, but I've been told!) I don't remember ever hearing anyting about making chi flow faster, per se, only that it needs to be more efficient. I do know that you can slow it down, then get it going again, but I don't know if that means "speeding up" or if you're just looking for the most efficient circulation.
Hard muscle mass, tension and injuries can definitely slow chi circulation, as can a lot of other things. Even stop it.
I don't know that I would want to make my chi flow faster than "normal" whatever that may be, but I do know that if it's slowed down or stopped, that's bad.
Does anyone know about the idea of actually increasing the speed of chi circulation beyond "normal"? I have never thought of it that way, myself. I have always pictured it more like getting myself back to the "norm" after having abused my chi flow for years and years.
I felt a definite sluggishness to my chi flow when I stopped training for some time a few years back. I could actually feel that it was less efficient, "slower" if you will. I could tell it increased again after I seriously began to train. But I've never consciously tried to "speed" it up any.
Hmmm.........
Again, I'd just never thought of it in that way.
I guess fa-jing is a "speeded up" manifestation of chi... If you think about it, it's lightning fast.
How fast is chi?
I just don't have the answer. I know how I like it in my body, I know when it's sluggish or moving along fine. I've just never said to myself, "OK, boys, let's speed this up even more".
Once I've gotten it to where it feels good and healthy, I'm pretty much there.
We'll have to get some input here, from folks who would know better than I would.
In other words, just about anyone!

Greetings All,


Greetings Wushuer,

You wrote:

<<I don't remember ever hearing anyting about making chi flow faster, per se, only that it needs to be more efficient. I do know that you can slow it down, then get it going again, but I don't know if that means "speeding up" or if you're just looking for the most efficient circulation.
Hard muscle mass, tension and injuries can definitely slow chi circulation, as can a lot of other things. Even stop it.
I don't know that I would want to make my chi flow faster than "normal" whatever that may be, but I do know that if it's slowed down or stopped, that's bad.
Does anyone know about the idea of actually increasing the speed of chi circulation beyond "normal"? I have never thought of it that way, myself. I have always pictured it more like getting myself back to the "norm" after having abused my chi flow for years and years.
I felt a definite sluggishness to my chi flow when I stopped training for some time a few years back. I could actually feel that it was less efficient, "slower" if you will. I could tell it increased again after I seriously began to train. But I've never consciously tried to "speed" it up any.
Hmmm.........
Again, I'd just never thought of it in that way.
I guess fa-jing is a "speeded up" manifestation of chi... If you think about it, it's lightning fast.
How fast is chi?>>


Thank you for your input Wushuer...

I am, in essence trying to figure out if the term "efficient circulation" goes beyond the simply "unobstructed","unblocked" aspect...

That would be level one, per se...unblock meridian lines for efficient flow, for health benefits.

But beyond that...Especially in issuance of Fa-jin...

I was thinking...

Of the Gong accumulation of Qi "resevoirs" as the amount of Chi(Mass) flowing (or able to flow) through the Meridians...

And

The circulation efficiency(beyond unblocked) was the Speed and Mass of the flow combined...creating the power to Fa-jin...effieciently.

N.B.(in form without partner, or candle---no manipulation of external energy involved)...

???

Any feedback welcomed.

Thank you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.

My 2 cents:


think of chi as water and you body as a rubber hose. If the hose is all tied up into a knot, then water will not flow as easily through it. If you untie it ans set it straight, therefore giving it a "correct position", water will flow easier and it will even seem to go "faster" than before.

Proper alignmet/posture in the form will make this chi flow easier and it will look faster than before but not because of the actual speed itself, but because in previous stages that we thought were normal, chi wasnt flowing as freely because of bad posture. Its more complicated that that but this is a simplified example.


as far as fah jinf being a "fast" chi... well, another simplified example:

How bright is electricity" how warm is electricity? electricity itself is nor bright, not warm. However, it can manifest itself and be tranformed into light or heat depending on how we use it. (a lamp, a blowdryer, etc).

fah jinf is just one of ther many manifestations of chi, combined with our fisical body and correct biomechanics, thats why we call it jing rather than just chi.


But so is "listening jing". Its also another manifestation, that although is may seem passive, well... everyone exerienced in push hands will agree that is there and is as real as fah jing. In this particulr case chi is tranformed, not on emiting force, but on yielding sensitive "skill" to undertand out opponent's intention.


I hope it makes sense. Im not an expert on the matter .... but "I've been told" too!


same thi

Greetings RVC,

Thank you for differentiating JING and CHI...

Well explained, caught me on a good day or something...I've been attempting for a while.

So..."Jing" is "Chi" after "intention" and "skill"/"structure"(Audi)have been processed/manifested...

Is this correct?

Thank you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.


[This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 03-16-2004).]

...This candle trick shows pretty conclusively if you're able to deliver that jing correctly...

Is extinguishing candles the best or purest test of fajing? If not, what is better and why?

If you want to test your jing/chi by extinguishing candles, do you need to move your body at all?

Chris,
I only mentioned the candle exercise because someone asked about the practices used for striking techniques.
This is not the "best" way to test fa-jing, or even the only way to test fa-jing. It's ONE way to test fa-jing, that's all.
I don't know of any way to strike at something without moving my body. Unless you count looking daggers at someone...

Rvc_ce,
I have never heard listening jing being spoken of in terms of fa-jing. Of course, I don't always listen, so...
I tend to think of that more as a passive use of jing. I'm "listening", not issuing.
Still, I do mostly agree with you concept of "more flow" not faster. A higher volume, rather than a higher rate of flow.
Of course, I have no basis for that, other than my own personal experience and some limited reading I have done on the subject.

the pasive side of listening jing is just that...one side. Although is not exatly a fa (emmiting) jing, it does have an active side to! Afet all if we are only listening and 100% passive, how could we react and counter right?

I will prbably fail to explain it correctly but its something like, while you listen you reposition yourself to a better posotion orsomething! Im trying to remember Dr. yang's chart on jing from his book and I cant! now I know I have to read it again!