Faith in the effectiveness of Tai Chi

Siahn
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:11 am

Re: Faith in the effectiveness of Tai Chi

Post by Siahn »

Why are you so persistent to have someone to prove that Tai Chi works as martial arts.
Why am I so persistent?

Let me explain. You have just detailed about how Tai Chi changes the body and allows the body to respond using Fajin.

Great. Great theory. Wheres your evidence?

Now, there seems to be a great deal of scientific evidence emerging that proves that Tai Chi is good for the health. Because of this evidence, I accept that Tai Chi is good for health – and whats more, I respect those Tai Chi practitioners who are practising simply for health reasons.

There is no scientific evidence however that Tai Chi is good for self defence. None. And as I stated in my original post, my teacher has stated that, in lieu of any evidence, I should just have faith.

This is the equivalent of the conversations I have had with religious folk who, after much debate, always fall back on their ‘faith’ in that what it states in their bible is truth. Ie Its true because it says so. Despite there being no evidence.

In other words ‘blind faith’.

I know that no one here is going to be able to convince me because there is no documented proof that Tai Chi actually works as a method of defence.

I confess I was hoping that somebody could illuminate me but really its just ended up being a circular conversation again similar to discussions with any persons of ‘faith’. That’s is; In the absence of any evidence, people who want to believe something, simply fall back on ‘I just have faith’ and ‘Im not hurting anyone so wheres the harm?’

Unfortunately, for me I need to follow truth – not a convenient idea.
A Tai Chi body is a practitioner who has practiced Tai Chi for a long time and developed enough internal strength which is called jin.

A Tai Chi body has the yin yang characteristic which was acquired from the diligent practice. It is all about how one issue the internal strength like fajin.
What evidence do you have of this? Do you really feel this principle can be applied in a real situation? Ive never seen evidence of this. There are no videos on youtube or any Tai Chi practitioners jumping in the ring to show it can be done. Unlike all the hard style martials arts who can clearly demonstrate and test their theories.
I know it is a waste of effort for everyone to convince you why and how it works. You know it may be impossible to fulfill your wish outside the native origin of Tai Chi Quan.
Yes you are right.

Thank you all for your feedback - I meant no disrespect but unfortunately my questioning often causes disruption to others and its for this reason I think Tai Chi is just not for me.

I wish you all the best
ChiDragon
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Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: Faith in the effectiveness of Tai Chi

Post by ChiDragon »

Siahn wrote:
A Tai Chi body is a practitioner who has practiced Tai Chi for a long time and developed enough internal strength which is called jin.

A Tai Chi body has the yin yang characteristic which was acquired from the diligent practice. It is all about how one issue the internal strength like fajin.
What evidence do you have of this? Do you really feel this principle can be applied in a real situation? Ive never seen evidence of this. There are no videos on youtube or any Tai Chi practitioners jumping in the ring to show it can be done. Unlike all the hard style martials arts who can clearly demonstrate and test their theories.
Here a Tai Chi body at work.
Please notice the effectiveness of the kick. It was from the jin of a Tai Chi body. It was not a kick from an ordinary person. Besides, the live proof is the documentation from the demonstration of a Tai Chi body. One has to experience to believe it.

All of the above which I had mentioned do exist. I had experienced to claim it work. My body tells me that I had incorporated all those Tai Chi characteristics within my physical structure. Besides, only if you want proof, I think you need to have faith in it and practice it. Because of your skepticism, no documentation can ever convince you but your own body.

With faith, one day, you might see the effect of Tai Chi Quan. It is not the same faith that you might see God someday!

Ref: Tai Chi body at work
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRGrzPU0zDY
A deep discussion requires explicit details for a good comprehension of a complex subject.
Siahn
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:11 am

Re: Faith in the effectiveness of Tai Chi

Post by Siahn »

I actually stated in the original post that I accepted that Tai Chi is a great accompaniment and additional training tool.

This fighter does indeed have a Tai Chi body Im sure but its clear that hes also adept in the hard striking styles also. My own hard style practice improved greatly from Tai Chi - however this is not what Im questioning.

Im questioning whether Tai Chi, by itself, is a valid and effective art for self defence. And if someone states that it is; then that someone should be able to prove it, not just ask me to have faith that it is so because he or she tells me so.

This video does not prove anything other than Tai Chi can improve your practise of hard style martial arts.

Quite a different thing.
DPasek
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Location: Pittsboro, NC USA

Re: Faith in the effectiveness of Tai Chi

Post by DPasek »

Siahn,

My posts were not meant to prove Taijiquan’s effectiveness, just to state that for me the process was enough – no proof or faith required. Proof or faith, to me, is irrelevant. You seem to also acknowledge benefits from practice, but they do not seem to be enough for you. I guess we just approach training differently, with different goals and expectations.

I do know that, with no other martial arts training, Taijiquan worked for me the one and only time that I really needed it. I also know that my friend (who I do not think had any other martial arts training, at least as an adult), who taught high school students with extreme enough behavioral problems (frequently violent) to be kicked out of their public schools, found that it worked quite well on a regular basis.

That is enough for me – what would be enough for you?
ChiDragon
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Re: Faith in the effectiveness of Tai Chi

Post by ChiDragon »

Hi, Siahn
You want documentation to see the effectiveness of Tai Chi. Be my guest. :)

This should speak for itself!
Ref: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFicJ903V-g
A deep discussion requires explicit details for a good comprehension of a complex subject.
Siahn
Posts: 21
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Re: Faith in the effectiveness of Tai Chi

Post by Siahn »

You want documentation to see the effectiveness of Tai Chi. Be my guest. :)

This should speak for itself!
CD, Im totally confused why you feel this video would present as evidence as such, however, I will concede that Chen style does look far more martial and effective than the Yang style that I practise.
ChiDragon
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Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: Faith in the effectiveness of Tai Chi

Post by ChiDragon »

Hi, Siahn

Of course, you are totally confused. It is because I was trying to tell you that the Tai Chi principles are universal. It applies to all styles. If it works for one style, then, it shall work for all. The level of accomplishment depends on each individual how far one wants to go. There is really no end to it. It is a matter of understanding and how to apply these principles into the practice. In addition, it was the devotion of the practitioner and the amount of time which was dedicated to reach the desirable level.

BTW These Tai Chi principles are written everywhere, some students just did not see them or ignored them. If one really
put the mind into it and apply them in the practice, then, one wouldn't have practiced meaninglessly nor blindly.
A deep discussion requires explicit details for a good comprehension of a complex subject.
DPasek
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Location: Pittsboro, NC USA

Re: Faith in the effectiveness of Tai Chi

Post by DPasek »

Siahn,

Part of the problem in pressure tested “proof” of the ability to fight with Taijiquan, is that even when someone tries to show this, observers always seem to doubt that they are solely fighting with Taijiquan. For example, William C. C. Chen’s son Max, and daughter Tiffany, have fought in MMA and other venues in order to show Taijiquan’s effectiveness.

http://contentgalaxy.com/video/martial-arts/max-chen

http://contentgalaxy.com/video/tai-chi/tiffany-chen

Even with a background of a lifetime of Taijiquan training (Yang style) from their famous father, doubters remain. Is this demonstration of pressure testing enough to satisfy you, or would you claim that they are not really using Taijiquan?
ChiDragon
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Re: Faith in the effectiveness of Tai Chi

Post by ChiDragon »

I think Siahn had made very clear that he wants to see a demonstration to show how effective the Yang style is in combat. He had indicated that he believes Tai Chi quan works. However, he just wants to see the Yang style moves were actually used in action during a fight. So far, there isn't any video showing the Yang style at work on Youtube to convince him. Unfortunately, citing documents showing other styles or any written document stating that the Yang style works is irrelevant to him.

To make the story short; Siahn just wants to see the effectiveness of Yang style in action with his own eyes. He had made very clear that he must see it to believe it.
Last edited by ChiDragon on Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A deep discussion requires explicit details for a good comprehension of a complex subject.
Siahn
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:11 am

Re: Faith in the effectiveness of Tai Chi

Post by Siahn »

At the end of the day, any martial art that isn't pressure tested is going to be greatly less effective as a method of self defence.

However, Tai Chi is still a very worthwhile and effective pursuit and I do feel that it adds greatly to my overall training in martial arts.

Seeing is believing and I'm happy to remain patient until one day I do see it for myself.

I am enjoying the journey.
Bob Ashmore
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Re: Faith in the effectiveness of Tai Chi

Post by Bob Ashmore »

Siahn,
Your questions are valid, we've all had them.
I know the answers to them, for me. Unfortunately that doesn't help you very much, there's nothing I can do about that.
That said, I ask no one to "believe me" on faith of my statements alone.
So why am I so sure about the "effectiveness" of Tai Chi Chuan (not Tai Chi, I don't even know what that is to be honest) as a martial art?
Because...
I trained TCC for over a decade in a martial arts studio, working with genuine martial artists who trained only TCC and so actually knew how to perform it and teach it.
These are not mutually exclusive skills, however one is fairly common (if you know where to look) while the other is practically a pink flying unicorn from Mars.
Can you guess which is which?
If so, there's your problem with understanding the art.
You're not learning it from someone who actually knows how to teach it to you.
So my advice is to find someone who knows how to not only do Tai Chi Chuan but can also teach you how to do it.
My other advice, not that you asked but I'm going to give it anyway...
Is to quit doing your hard styles and start doing Tai Chi Chuan.
Because I can promise you this, you aren't seeing, being taught, or doing TCC.
Further, even if you do somehow stumble across someone who knows what the hell THEY'RE doing and how to teach it to you, YOU can't possibly be doing it yet.
Sorry, you can't, it's just that simple.
I've been both realistically training AND effectively teaching TCC for nearly 30 years, so if nothing else I say gets through hear this:
It's going to be AT LEAST another five years before you'd be able to even approximate actual TCC.
Sorry, but that's not my rule.
It's just how it is.

Here are my three rules for TCC students to follow for any hope of success:
First: find a genuine TCC teacher
Second: forget what you have previously learned entirely. All of it. No, not kidding.
Third: see rule #1, do EVERYTHING he tells you no matter how ridiculous you think it is at the time.
Because that's who's going to be able to help you figure this out.
NOT some self appointed Master who got his creds out of a Cracker Jack box.

Bob Bu Hao (and how!)
Siahn
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Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:11 am

Re: Faith in the effectiveness of Tai Chi

Post by Siahn »

Bob, that's very useful information and advice, thank you.
Audi
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Re: Faith in the effectiveness of Tai Chi

Post by Audi »

I would like to add to this topic, but would prefer not to engage in any arguments about the issue of Tai Chi versus other martial arts.

The best way to evaluate the effectiveness of Tai Chi is to experience it for oneself. If we are talking about martial effectiveness and the type of Tai Chi represented by the Association and similar traditions, the pathway to this lies through push hands. If you do not do push hands, you cannot understand our approach to the martial side.

Doing push hands and doing solo form practice both share an internal and an external aspect. It can be rewarding to do either while basically only paying attention to the external aspects, but it is much more so while paying attention to both. This requirement introduces an element of subtlety to this type of Tai Chi that is hard to teach, learn, discuss, or demonstrate.

Tai Chi is not alone in such subtlety. Consider swimming or bicycling.

If you can swim, you are probably familiar with one or more types of strokes. If you cannot swim, you may think that learning to swim basically involves learning and perfecting one of these strokes. If you do swim, you know that there is some truth to such a statement, but that it fundamentally does not capture the reality of what it takes to learn to swim and what you do while swimming. Both my father and I learned to swim by different methods without having even ten seconds worth of instruction in stroke mechanics.

If you can ride a bicycle, you know that it requires a certain amount of balancing. If you cannot ride a bicycle, you might think there are some movements to learn or that balancing is the core aspect of riding a bicycle and that having excellent balance is a requirement. If you do ride a bicycle, you know that what you learned is not easy to put into words and that learning how to balance your torso was not really part of it.

As you start Tai Chi, it is inevitable that you will pay attention to external things. This is actually a good and necessary step. But more accomplished practitioners know that the core of Tai Chi is not about externals, but rather about managing energy. It is not really about any particular movements or techniques, even if it might seem so.

From a scientific standpoint, I could describe “energy” as generally referring to kinetic, elastic, and potential energy. You must learn to manage these in yourself and in your opponent.

Until you reach a certain level of Tai Chi, managing energy seems only like coordinating your limbs in a particular way and perhaps adding a few of the more internal concepts. This is like trying to learn to swim by perfecting your strokes or learning to ride a bicycle while focusing only on balancing the torso. Actually, the more internal concepts are fundamental and integral to the movement and cannot just be added in.

In swimming, managing your effect on the water and the water’s effect on you is more fundamental than any preconceived position of your limbs. In bicycling, managing the energy of the bicycle by pedaling and steering the wheel is more fundamental than how you balance your torso. In Tai Chi, learning to manage energy is more fundamental than any movement.

In learning to swim or ride a bicycle, your psychological state is usually a very important aspect. Managing fear is a major element of the learning process. In Tai Chi, your mental state is also very important, not because of fear, but because of the temptation to manage your body according to old habits in a more external way. Those who learn best learn not only because of good teaching, but because of putting forth the right mental attitude as a student.

Only when you get to the level of understanding energy, can you really learn to neutralize/dissolve/化/hua it. Only when you learn to dissolve it can you issue properly. Our path to learn this requires learning to stick during push hands circling. Some of this can be learned merely be blind repetition, but I think that it usually requires close attention to the principles and a teacher with knowledge to guide you. It is hard to see or learn it from the outside, just as you cannot really see what a swimmer does to avoid sinking or what a bicyclist does to avoid falling. Even if you are observant enough to see, you will not really understand what they are doing.

Upon reaching this level of mastery in Tai Chi, you will have learned the equivalent of learning how to swim or ride a bike. This does not mean you are like an olympic swimmer or cyclist, just that you have entered the door to the fundamentals. Your technique will be crude and needs to be refined. As you refine it, you can manage fiercer and fiercer energy defensively and offensively.

While you are learning to swim, it can be less than useless to discuss the finer points of the dolphin kick that works best for the butterfly stroke. While learning how to ride a bicycle, it can be less than useless to learn about minimizing wind resistance or about drafting techniques. While learning the basics of Tai Chi, there is much of the Tai Chi classics and Tai Chi applications that it makes little sense to discuss or to try to emulate.

My experience with our system and similar ones is that after studying Tai Chi between one to five years and progressing in push hands past the basic circle patterns and beginning to practice limited applications and counters, you will begin to experience the martial side of Tai Chi and can begin to judge it for yourself. In other words, you can then be at the level of being a beginning swimmer or bicyclist. Depending on the goals and the diligence of their practice, many people do not reach this level even after twenty years of practice centered on solo forms.

The last thing I should say about martial Tai Chi is that high skill in it demands arduous practice, just as hards styles do. Few people really want to do this. I personally would like to taste it and dabble in it, but really am unwilling to put in the work to get to a high level of fighting skill. I want to experience high level Tai Chi, but really don’t care about being a high level fighter.

At my age and level of fitness, I have no problem launching people into the air or being launched or taking or receiving a punch at moderate force and speed. I am unwilling, however, to seriously risk bruising friends or breaking bones or being bruised and having my bones broken. I can still roll to the floor to a limited extent and have some limb flexibility, but really don’t want to be slammed to the ground or test the limits of my ability to deal with short energy on my joints or my internal organs. I do occasionally practice fajin according to our method, but am not dedicated enough to make it a regular part of my routine. I can issue (fali 发力) much harder than I would be willing to do on even a willing practice partner, but true mastery would require more dull and exhausting practice than I am willing to engage in. What I do not doubt, even at my modest level of skill is the effectiveness that such practice can give.

If you want to test out whether Tai Chi has martial application, try out our style or a similar one, practice solo form diligently for 1-3 years, and then learn push hands from a competent teacher for another year. Then you will have your answer. In all, I think no more than 2-6 years are necessary to get a real taste, but that does not mean you will quite be in a position to take on all comers quite yet.:-)

Take care,
Audi
global village idiot
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Re: Faith in the effectiveness of Tai Chi

Post by global village idiot »

DPasek, thanks for the vote of confidence. I'll do my best to share what I know, and hope it sheds light on the question, rather than clouding it.

Lest anyone thinks my "military experience" means more than it really does, these few facts should be borne uppermost in mind,:
o Most of my career was spent in the Reserves
o I retired this past February
o Most of my military career I was a field artillery surveyor, a construction engineer, pitched mail or supervised the same.
o I'm no one's idea of some SpecOps-MARSOC-Delta-SEAL-Ranger-Space-Shuttle-Door-Gunner, nor did I ever have any pretensions to being one.

As for using tai chi chuan within this "military" context, it was by way of demonstration, and largely limited to two sets of occasions:
1) Those times I couldn't - either by pulling rank, faking injury/infirmity or finding some convincing pretext - get out of attending a block of instruction on "Combatives," which is the Army's new-ish term for hand-to-hand combat, and
2) One episode around this time of year in 2016 when an officer in my unit requested a demonstration and comparison of my martial art versus his (Philippine Arnis/Eskrima)

With respect to the first episodes, it never failed that I'd find myself paired off against the biggest lummox in the group (I'm 5'5" and about 165 pounds, or 165cm/75kg in soccer units - my opponent was invariably "Offensive Lineman" sized). We'd go through the ordeal of learning the various grappling moves and, bless their hearts, the big guys always took pity on me and tried their darnedest not to "break their training partner." When it came to the "open sparring" portion at the end of the block of instruction, I'd just fall back to what I learned from tai chi, as it was the only way I had of not getting flopped around like a rag doll. Mostly I was redirecting and moving my guys away, or repositioning myself with respect to them so as to place myself at an advantage.
I'd have had the devil of a time against a smaller, nimbler, more wiry opponent.
I wasn't really fighting, just keeping from getting my butt flattened.
Without fail, the instructors would demand to know what I was doing, because it looked nothing like their grappling style. I'd tell them, tell them why I was using it, and remind them that I'd told them I trained in it before the class.
In this "military" context, tai chi chuan is not an effective martial art, for the simple reason that hand-to-hand combat in a military context is about killing or disabling an opponent, and tai chi chuan - at least as I practice it and at my level of expertise - is at best a means of self-preservation. It might get your man on the ground and in a position where you can draw a knife or a sidearm and either stab or shoot him; then again, if you're a soldier with a knife or pistol, why didn't you use them first? They're much more efficient.
Army Combatives, for anyone whose job is not directly related to killing people or breaking their stuff, is hardly better than no training at all. It's simply there for conditioning and developing a combat mindset.
This is not to say that it's a bad martial art; quite the contrary - it's very good! It's efficient and violent and effective, when trained consistently. But Reservists rarely train in it more than one three-hour class annually (if that much!) and there's never any follow-up.
The Reserves' job is to support the face-shooters and stuff-breakers, not to do it ourselves.

The second episode took place one hot and dusty afternoon in the field in Ft. McCoy. One of my Company's Lieutenants - who in the civilian world was employed as a policeman on an Air Force Base - said he saw me practicing the solo form outside my tent one morning, and went on to tell me I was doing it all wrong.
Oh, really, sir...
He said that I wasn't solidly planted on both feet, and that I should have my weight evenly distributed between them. I was always "perched on one foot or the other" and that this was wrong.
Y'don't say, sir...
Yeah, he went on...he could knock me over as easily as a cat knocking a glass off a kitchen counter.
I took leave of my senses and invited the Lieutenant to see if he was right.
(Narrator) The Lieutenant wasn't right...
I don't even remember doing anything specific from the form, but rather I was moving just so. He'd step up to try to push at me; I'd step forward to "stick" to him, follow him for a spell and just sort of "settle," and flump! down he went, about three or four times.
Again, context being everything, his martial art is entirely appropriate for him, as mine is for me. If I have to mix it up with a drunk Airman, it's to get him off me, get him to leave me alone and get my butt home. In the Lieutenant's case, he'd be subduing that same drunk Airman pursuant to arrest.
Same drunk Airman, completely different contexts.
We talked about this and came away with an understanding & respect for each others' martial arts.
It wasn't much of an accomplishment, and in fact neither of us were really having at each other; however I will say that I took it as a personal point of pride that I was able to achieve the above while wearing web gear, gas mask pouch and a small backpack, whereas he was just wearing his duty uniform (we both had the sense to take off our helmets).

I hope this helped. Context is everything, in martial arts just like everywhere else.

gvi
Last edited by global village idiot on Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
The important things are always simple.
The simple things are always hard.
The easy way is always mined.
- from Murphy's Laws of Combat
fchai
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Faith in the effectiveness of Tai Chi

Post by fchai »

Greetings,
What GVI says makes eminent sense. In many ways it is a "passive" martial art, in that it does not "initiate" harm or action. As the classics state and to paraphrase, "When he does not move, I do not move. When he moves, I move first!" Practice the form and practice push hands, eventually you may have a "light bulb" moment. Reflect also on what others on this forum have said and decide for yourself.
Take care,
Frank
P.s.
The other martial art, that I know of, which can be compared to Taiji would be Judo, in some respects. Both require "contact", a strong "root", dislodging or destabilizing the opponent's "root", absorption and deflection, and use of the opponent's own force and momentum to attack. The primary difference is that in Judo, one also can initiate the attack, which would not be the case with Taiji. Also, Judo often applies strength against strength to counter, which is again not the Taiji way.
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