Yang Family Tai Chi Discussion Board

Greetings Audi,

I just had a chance to investigate those links to "Gong" and "Fu"...

The first link worked perfectly...Found "Fu" and it's meanings...Very interesting...

The second link also worked...hesitantly...for the first "gong". I really like the option on that site for the step by step instructions for the calligraphy of the characters.

The third didn't hesitate at all...It just didn't work for me...Alas...

I would really enjoy benefiting from the use of these sites myself...How would I do that?
I don't see an option for changing the vocabulary anywhere...Do you have the www...? Or instructions for use?

Merry Christmas Audi

Thank You,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.


[This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 12-25-2003).]

Greetings Audi,

Thanks for your attempts and efforts given towards answering my questions.
---------------------------------------------
Firstly,

You...taunted...Na, just joking.

You wrote:
<I got halfway through a long post on the Eight Gates and then thought better of it.> Audi.

Put me through all the colors of the rainbow, that did!

I finally settled on
" Whenever you believe my understanding in Taijiquan is developed enough along these lines to be capable of absorbing efficiently these matters, I will welcome the instructions eagerly."
---------------------------------------------
Secondly,

You reiterated and refined several points on the Single Whip test...

Yes, good advice Audi. My finger positions are the very least of my greater trials at the moment. It was an interesting test, though, which I will keep in mind for re-attempts at a later date.
---------------------------------------------
Thirdly,

On the subject of tension, you presented some substantial imagery as analogy to represent 'flexibilty within tension'...

The factual importance of the balanced co-operative qualities these two must share...

Definitely another worthy aspect to consider when pondering facets of yin and yang interdependance...

I surely will conclude different levels of understanding throughout my studies in Taijiquan...I can comprehend on one level presently...however, will undoubtedly relate with differing perspective in a year from now.
---------------------------------------------
Lastly,

Snake Creeps Down:
A universal echo of similar response it seems...Thanks for the consolations...O.K. then...Try to shift my focus then...What would you judge as representing "good structure" for this posture...the requirements alluded to?

For some strange reason...a part of me begrudges this...leniency?...Perhaps if I knew why other styles find this important, conversely I could deduce why the Yang style finds this aspect of "low form" moreover irrelevant towards the acheivement of the posture.

The Why's and Why not's...

Thank you,
Best regrads,
Psalchemist.

Greetings Audi,

Continuing along the thread of your previous post...

You stated quite a few points concerning "naturalness" that I am afraid I do not quite comprehend...But I can relate to the idea you mention of "tasting the excellence"...catching glimpses of Taijiquan potential. I am also sure to agree with your statement concerning the many benefits for beginners.

On a separate note you asked me about "Lift hands step up" and "Play the pipa/guitar" postures and how I perceive certain aspects of these...

First, I would say that I experience the same "Yi" for both...In the sense that I would consider the martial applications in similar fashion...Both as being elbow/wrist locks/breaks (Lacking further knowledge)

However, the similarity in "Yi" ends there...Since I do find they are executed differently, as you mention.

"Ti shou shang shi" is more of a "squeezing" action...While "Shou huei pipa" is more of a simultaneous press down and lift upward action.

What IS the usual "label" for this opposing lift up/press down action...In terms of energy configurations?


The only minor difference I find (and this only applies if I am executing said postures correctly in the first place)...Lift Hands seems "closed" while "play guitar" seems "open"...At least in physical distance/space... between opposing elbow/wrist "end" position.


Perhaps you would like to explain the differences in jin points to me...I find the contrast quite subtle yet.

Thank You,
Best Regards,
Psalchemist.

'Morning Audi,

This passage you provided was particularly enlightening for me...Worthy of it's own post...

You elucidated:
<Knowing martial applications of postures can be an excellent way of learning how to perform the movements with more precision and prpose. It can, however, also be a subtle trap. Taijiquan shares postures and applications with many other arts. It is thus possible to perform many postures in the form "Successfully", using techniques and strategies of external arts. Doing this over and over again can make it difficult to understand the viewpoint of Taijiquan strategy and tactics...

***For instance,

...does the application include any of Zhan-Nian-Lian-Sui?

Is there a moment of Na ("Controlling" or "pinning down the opponents energy") or does one blow right by these niceties?

Does one ignore the possibility of using Enticing (Yin)?

Does one really incorporate the opponents energy, or just rely on speed and power to succeed?> Audi

The answers truly are in the questions.

Excellent conveyance of the differences between Internal arts and External arts...Eureka!...THESE are the finer, subtle underlying chasms dividing the two...Required a few attempts, but I do understand presently, on a psychological level at least, your elaborations.

Thanks for your valuable assistance.

Best Regards,
Psalchemist.

Greetings Audi,

What an astounding day for revelations...

You wrote:
Psalchemist, you also mentioned the influence of "meridian factors" in Roll Back. I have no objection to this at all, my only point in talking about Qi is that focusing on such concepts is not the Yang's way, any more than analyzing how the triceps affects the biceps or how the pulse rises or falls in certain situations. Even though Yang style has breathing requirements, these do not recieve anywhere near the emphasis they do in other styles of Taijiquan.> Audi

O.K. , very good, crystal clear, capice.

You also wrote:
If you focus on meridians, you will be tempted to try methods of accelerating Qi along these meridians; however, Yang style talks about sinking Qi to the Dan Tian, not about radiating it out toward the limbs. I am not certain of the reasoning for this, but I think it relates to a theory called reversal of yin and yang. Can anyone else confirm this? In essence, I think the theory calls for consciously trying to keep your own Qi down in order naturally to make use of it in your upper body. Having Qi flow along meridians is something thought to happen naturally, unless you do things to interfere with it. Sinking Qi to your Dan Tian is thus WuWei, i.e., acting through lack of action.> Audi

So...Conversely to focussing on ones meridian channels, one should focus on the ten essentials...Thereby achieving "song"...Thereby "sinking" and "rooting"...Thereby creating power which then raises upwards..."Naturally"...Thereby (if unhindered) expressing energy through proper structure out the hands, manifest...(If, that is, one maintains qualities of "song", established through the implication of the essentialsthroughout the entire posture...Therby retaining song and internal power...


Vitally important distinctions

Thanks again.

Good day,
Best Regards,
Psalchemist.

Greetings Audi,

Addressing with finality...hopefully...your last posting...IF, that is, I am not plagued with certain interruptions which constantly bless my existance...My attitude towards interruption dependant upon the interruptor...

Too Tense!!! LOL

You wrote:
<Lastly, you mentioned my comments about martial morality and defeating a teacher's purpose. Please rest assured that my comments were not directed at you, but rather generally at everyone, including myself. I have definitely experienced this problem and believe I have seen it in others. One failure in my practice that I repeatedly see is the failure to try to embody concrete and simple aspects of the Ten Essentials, while spinning my wheels on other less important things. Most recently I realized that I have neglected Seeking Stillness in Motion, which has now become much more concrete for me. > Audi

Firstly,
Thanks for putting my mind at rest...which you did...but this stems from my own little complex not your suggestions. Thanks for your dependable patience.

Secondly,
"Quiessence" (Cool word )Stillness in Movement...Evident in Masters...I find the concrete aspect within this realm quite advanced, containing many levels...I have glimpsed certain moments of sensing its lower guises in my own practice...but stand in awe when witnessing true "stillness in motion" ...I don't really expect great speedy advancement therein for a while in this the tenth Essential element on any but superficial levels, myself...

Power to You in your practice!

Thank You,
Best Regards,
Psalchemist.

[This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 12-27-2003).]

Greetings Psalchemist,


Again, I am not sure I can answer all your questions, but here is some further elaboration.

You asked about rotation vs. straightening vs. curving. Like much of what I post, these are my words, rather than the Yangs. To some extent, I arrived at these thoughts from considering how the Yangs narrate the form and repeatedly use words like “move the arms in arcs,” “bend the knee,” “straighten the spine,” etc. When they use these words is also important to my mental projection of the form movements.

These words also occurred to me as I was partially trying to capture what “seeking the straight in the curved” means to me. It is also reflective of the fact that I feel much of how the Yangs position their limbs is dependent upon an underlying geometry that it is important to feel and conform to.

If you are making a straight line, I believe it is important to feel how you are extending between two points. If you are making a curve, I believe it is important to feel for the energy that is determining the amount of bend and to “extend your bow” along this vector. Some rotations feel like mere changes in extension to me; however, others feel like using my limbs like ratchets or gears. I think that understanding this is important to the timing of rotations.

As I consider my list, I think I would have to add “folding” as another basic concept that goes through my mind. For instance, in the transition from Single Whip to High Pat on Horse, I basically feel this as a transition from one straight line in my arms and back to another, by means of folding at my right elbow and at my right wrist.

If I put these four concepts together in their myriad variations, this basically accounts for how I mentally categorize my movements and try to conform to the underlying geometry I feel.

You asked about “kong,” “song,” and “gong.” First, I marveled at your pun, because your wit seemed a good counterpoint to my dry pedantic language.

At another level, one could argue that one can gain achievement (“gong” in one meaning) only through hard work and effort (“gong” in another meaning). The hard work can only be truly efficacious if you “relax and avoid useless effort” (“song”). To truly relax, you must make yourself “empty” (“kong”) and let the Dao accomplish all things for you. Thus, to achieve, you must only empty yourself.

On the other hand, if you do not put in the hard work (“gong”), your effort will be slack and loose (“song”), and your achievement (“gong”) will ultimately be empty (“kong”).

You of course provided yet another way of relating these concepts in your pun.

You also asked about pronunciation. In a nutshell, if you pronounce the Mandarin syllable “ong” so that the vowel you use rhymes with the “u” in the English word “put,” you will come very close to the Chinese sound. There are some equivalent Cantonese words (e.g., the “gong” in “Heung Gong” (“Hong Kong”)) that use a much more open and longer vowel like English “ong,” but this sounds very strange to my ear for Mandarin words, where the vowel is quite short in duration.

Sorry about the links for “fu” and “gong.” I have not yet mastered the art of the hyperlink. You can access the appropriate site at www.zhongwen.com. The click in the left frame on “Pronunciation,” which appears beneath “Search Dictionary.” You can then click on the relevant syllables you want to investigate. To find the two “gong’s” I was discussing, click on the seventh and ninth ones under the first instance of “gong.” (FYI, it carries a macron to signify that it is pronounced with the high level tone in Mandarin, which we usually signify on this board by the number 1 after the relevant syllable.) For what its worth, the seventh “gong” looks like a capital I.

This is all I have time for the moment.

Take care and Happy New Year,
Audi

Take care,
Audi

Greetings Audi,

Thanks for your elaborations.

In addressing my quandry concerning rotation vs. curved vs. straight you added "folding".

This is a matter I have heard of repeatedly yet superficially and so find myself questionning the deeper meaning of this expression.

You mentioned the transition into "Kao Tan Ma" (high pat horse) as a "folding" movement...From the little I understand of folding I find I cannot really deduce with accuracy, its precise meaning.

Is Kao Tan Ma itself a posture employing "folding" ?

Is "White Crane Spreads Wings " also classified as "folding" ?

What of the "fold" in "Hai Di Chen" ?

I am quite unclear on the concept...
Could you please describe in further detail what you consider the definition of "folding" to be in Taijiquan?

Appreciate your assistance greatly.

Thank you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.


[This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 01-03-2004).]

Hi Psalchemist,

I may have been confusing about introducing the term folding. I was spontaneously using the word to try to explain the underlying structures that go through my mind as I do form and move my limbs. “Folding,” as I understand it, is also a martial term of art that has one or two specific uses in Taijiquan.

I recall reading that one should not “retreat” in a straight line, but should employ “folding” movements. My understanding of this is that one should employ a zigzagging motion in retreat. I also have encountered talk of “folding” in referring to how one can move one’s arm around an opponent’s block. For instance, after an opponent blocks your forearm to stop your strike, you can yield at the point of contact and “fold” your arm to place the point of your elbow in position to strike.

As far as I am aware, “folding” as a term of art has no special application to Needle at Sea Bottom (“Hai di zhen”/“Hai ti chen”), White Crane, or High Pat on Horse. For me, however, the word does explain how I conceptualize the right arm transition between Single Whip and High Pat on Horse. In other words, there is no time that my joints feel without purpose, destinations, vectors, Yi, etc.

Let me continue to address some of the issues in your previous posts.

I forgot to mention that the definition of “fu1” on the Zhongwen site only talks about its “people” connotations. As I understand it, Chinese has a long history of using terms for activities to apply to the people that do them and vice versa. As a result, a word like “fu1,” meaning among other things: “husband,” might also be used to indicate “husbandry.” In the word “gongfu,” I think only the “work” aspect is prominent, and there is no notion of personhood in the term.

You also talked about my “abandoning my post” on the eight gates. I did not abandon it because I felt a need to withhold knowledge from you. First, what I have to share is merely my stupid theories, I certainly have no special knowledge. Those things I feel certain about are widely available in many places, though not necessarily in the same “packaging.” I post only because I wish some people had stated their experiences plainly and clearly early in my studies. It actually would not have mattered to me that much whether they were right or wrong, but only that they were clear. With even a little knowledge, I would have been able more accurately to assimilate other teaching and would have known how such teaching related to other things I was trying to learn.

Even after studying Taijiquan for several years, I was often surprised that I had misinterpreted basic things and had never even considered the possibility of alternate explanations. I accepted some discoveries only because I was cornered into changing my views through a confluence of many factors, such as seeing something demonstrated in person, hearing it explained simultaneously in English and Chinese, or even seeing someone fail to see the relevance of what I had thought was a vital problem. Sometimes, what people have not said when given ample opportunity has also been influential for me.

Another reason I abandoned my post is that I thought I have probably said enough already. I would presume that folks are tired of reading what probably sound like endless, ill-informed speculation. Maybe I drew inappropriate conclusions. If you are still interested, I can still post what I wrote.

You also stated: <<Whenever you believe my understanding in Taijiquan is developed enough along these lines to be capable of absorbing efficiently these matters, I will welcome the instructions eagerly>>. Again, I do not have qualifications to give “instructions,” but I can share experiences. I generally believe the best way to progress is to have a teacher “put the Gongfu directly into your body,” as a friend recently related to me. Such encounters are worth a hundred posts.

Unfortunately, such intimate teaching requires the right teacher with the right student on the right occasion. Such configurations are, for various reasons, not very common. Most of us must often rely on other means to supplement our studies. In this light, I would be delighted if anything I say proves helpful to you.

One more thing I would like to relate about fingers is the following. I once had a teacher who showed me how allowing my fingers to curl up limply left them open to attack. What I gave with my fingers, he took. If one does not keep structure in the fingers, one can leave them open to structural attack. I have found it to be beneficial to pay some attention to this in doing form.

In Snake Creeps Down, I can understand and sympathize with your distaste for “leniency.” However, one of the things that I think verifies the honesty of the Yangs teaching is that they seem to have refrained from throwing up requirements, even where it would be easy to do so. I only wish their tolerance would extend to a few more postures, like the steps leading into Diagonal Flying.

In the case of Snake Creeps Down, I think the issue is that the posture is intended to set up certain feelings or tendencies in the opponent. How successful you will be in the set-up depends on many things. Being able to make a big circle and scrape your bottom on the ground certainly gives you more options, but will not guarantee success if other skills are absent. I think these other skills are what receive the emphasis.

I think the Yangs take the same view about the height of kicks. For instance, being able to kick someone in the ear in Separate Foot (Fen Jiao) certainly gives you options, but kicking someone behind the knee might be even more effective in other circumstances.

I still have multiple problems with Snake Creeps Down, even in its lenient version. Some tips I have heard include making sure that your feet are “shoulder width apart”; sinking behind your heels, rather than on top of them; and making sure to “fold” at your hip sockets, rather than thinking about the waist. I have also begun to experiment with pulling my left hip further to my rear, because it seems to add stability to the application I envision. The only overall recommendation I could make would be to verify whether you can still attempt to embody the Ten Essentials and also to verify whether you feel strong and stable in the application you envision.

You stated that you did not understand my points about “naturalness.” I apologize for not being clear. Basically, I am saying that for the great majority of principles I have learned from the Yangs I feel there is a unity of form, function, and purpose that in the right setting can be immediately obvious and palpable. This unity should not feel like something arbitrary that you need to internalize in order to progress, but rather like something that is natural to your body and to the situation. Little or no mental or physical preparation should be necessary “to enter the gate.”

Imagine picking up a bow to draw the string back. Could you imagine mistakenly pulling the string with your thumb, or drawing the string while either of your hands is positioned off center? Would you have to memorize in advance the distance you will need to pull the string? Unless we are talking about Olympic archery or Zen-inspired teaching, drawing a bow comes reasonably naturally to everyone. The physics of the process are immediately intuitive and determine what you do. This is what I believe the approach one should have to learning principles, postures, and positions. The individual pieces should be simple and intuitive, even if it takes years to put it all together.

You were kind enough to answer my question about Play the Pipa and Lifting Hands. You seem to have as good a grasp of the differences between these postures as I can muster. I would say, however, that the mere fact both postures can be seen as involving elbow breaks does not mean that the Yi employed is similar. The differences you describe involve mobilizing the energy in the body very differently. For example, in Lifting Hands you use the horizontal rotational energy in your waist or body to apply the breaking energy. I would argue that in Play the Pipa, you circle your hands, but use a sinking (?) kind of energy in your body to apply the break. At least for me, my joints are loaded completely differently in the two postures, and I would lead an opponent into the postures using completely different methods.

You also asked about a label for the “lift up/push down” action of Play the Pipa. Most people would describe this as Lie/Lieh, or Split/Rend; however, I think there is more of an overlap in meaning than a one-to-one correspondence. For instance, with a slight change in pressures and vectors, these same postures could be used to push the opponent away, rather than to break anything.

Take care,
Audi

Hi Audi,

Thank You for your postings, Audi. I appreciate the efforts you apply at answering my questions and assisting my deeper understanding.

Thanks for clarifying the term of art, "Folding": Aside from other pertinent explanations, you included:

<< For instance, after an opponent blocks your forearm to stop your strike, you can yield at the point of contact and "fold" your arm to place the point of your elbow in position to strike>....<For me, however, the word does explain how I conceptualize the right arm transition between Single Whip and High Pat on Horse. In other words, there is no time that my joints feel without purpose, destination, vectors, Yi, etc.>> Audi

Now that you have described this specific action to me, it has become much more visible.
I could sense a "purpose", as you mention, when witnessing my sifu execute this transition between postures...I can therefore sense that I am lacking some sort of "purpose" there, myself.
My movement in this particular transition is lacking that "purpose" of application/Yi, Folding(in this case).

I have "destination" without purpose.

I am beginning to notice the tangible effects of Yi...which I had not been in a position to view, or understand, before. Yi can be seen and felt through the expression in the forming and resulting structure...It is manifest in the whole body alignment...not only the hands.

I now find it quite interesting to observe the differences between newcomers and seasoned practitioners. The Yi, or lack of it is much more evident to me now.

I remember we were discussing, a while back, how a master could diagnose a students form, overall, by witnessing one or just a few movements...I was skeptical and horrified at the idea of such a quick judgement, at the time, but can now better relate to this concept.

Much room for expansion...progress...in the art of Taijiquan.

So, in guise of reiterated (flogged and reflogged) summary:

1) 13 Shi San Shi.
2) 9 (Zhan-Lian-Nian-Sui...etc.) extra skills.
3)Curved vs. Straight vs. Rotation vs. Folding

Very Good!!!
(Have you thought of any others?)

---------------------------------------------

You also mentioned ratchet and gear rotations versus other types of rotations...
<If you are making a straight line, I believe it is important to feel how you are extending between two points. If you are making a curve I believe it is important to feel for the energy that is determining the amount of bend and to "extend your bow" along this vector. Some rotations feel like mere changes in extension to me; however others feel like using my limbs like ratchets or gears. I think that understanding this is important to the timimg of rotations.> Audi

I thought your explanations for extending the straight and extending the curve were well writ and very understandable.
"Extending the bow along its vector...fascinating...( first though, I have to find the bow! )

I really enjoyed David's presentation of the sixteen possibilities for rotations and weight shift combinations...Very efficient.

How does your reference to "rotational" aspects in this case share resonance in content to Davids summary?

Also, if I may implore your discourse further...
What knowledge can you offer on the differences between hip and waist rotation?

Have a Happy New Year!

Thank You,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.

[This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 01-04-2004).]

Greetings Audi,

I also wished to thank you for all the in depth materials you have provided for the terms, "gong", "fu", "kong" and "song".

This proves to me, once again, the complex nature of the Chinese language...I can see the futility of attempting to learn a language in full, a bit here a bit there, as you've mentioned previously...Perhaps I can, at the least, accumulate some valuable Taijiquan terms and understanding of them on primary levels.

Also, please rest assured that I was not countering your language, in particular, with my levity, that was actually directed at ALL "dry pedantic speakers" !!! LOL

Good word..."pedantic"...

Take care,
Psalchemist.

Greetings Audi,

In speaking of the Eight Gates hesitancy...

You wrote:
<You also talked about my "abandoning my post" on the eight gates.> Audi

Na, I know you'd never abandon your post Audi.

<I did not abandon it because I felt a need to withold knowledge from you.> Audi

Thank You, Audi, I appreciate that assurance.

<First, what I have to share is merely my stupid theories,> Audi

First, Your theories are very far from stupid. They are very valuable to me.

<I certainly have no special knowledge.> Audi

Your knowledge seems rather special to me, one who does not have it.

<Those things I feel certain about are widely available in many places, though not necessarily in the same "packaging".> Audi

I can appreciate that statement...I COULD restrict my learning of theory to researching books...I'm sure I would eventually find that process, in exclusion, to become tiresome, tedious and tremendously repetitive...and, one cannot query a book as to it's deeper meaning! Besides, it would not be half the fun.

<I post only because I wish some people had stated their experiences plainly and clearly early in my studies. It actually would not have mattered to me that much whether they were right or wrong, but only that they were clear. With even a little knowledge, I would have been able more accurately to assimilate other teaching related to other teachings and would have known how such teaching related to other things I was trying to learn.> Audi

I too prefer straight, direct instruction...which is one reason why I enjoy your direct yet diplomatic postings so much.

<Another reason I abandoned my post is that I thought I have probably said enough already. I would presume that folks are tired of reading what probably sounds like endless, ill-informed speculation> Audi

Well, I can't, won't speak for "folks"...

I, personally, enjoy reading and pondering, assimilating and wandering your thorough, conscientious posts tremendously.

They also do not seem ill-informed, nor speculative, nor endless.

To the contrary, in my opinion, they seem quite knowledgeable, factual (as far as philosophy and theory goes...always accompanied by degrees of controversy), intelligent, interesting thoughts and statements.

<If you are still interested, I can still post what I wrote.> Audi

Thanks for the generous offer, Audi. I would indeed be interested in hearing what you have to say concerning Bagua. I feel it might provide certain insight into my present studies.

Thank you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.

Audi has been a valuable and consistent contributor to this forum. I hope my rather undiplomatic argumentation won't deter him from continuing to post freely and often.

Greetings Jerry,

I'm sure your reasonable arguments have offended noone.

I realize you were speaking of a particular expression, not general theory inclusive of gradual concepts...

Thanks for clarifying your views.

Best regards,
Psalchemist.

Greetings to all,

I didn’t read all the post i hope that i dont say what has been said before, but the subject is very interesting to me just wanted to share some experiences that I recently had in china with a master there.

His whole practice could be summed up as yi or mind.Upon touching him and his students you immediately are aware of their intent. When pushing there is no sense of force you are carried or fall into a hole by your own intention or being lead by theirs.

The master uses his intent expressed though his eyes, it’s a very physical invisible feeling, he makes a point of not looking and showing that its not possible to uproot and easily throw a person with what feels like no force with out using his eyes to direct it.. In playing the from the movement is thought of and then allowed to express its self. With practice this idea becomes a reality.

In practice when I start working with people have them grasp my wrist in the beginning posture and bring my hands up using my muscles. I then do this again having them still holding my wrist but only thinking my arms up with out movement. I can feel the energy go to their back they report feeling a type of expansion of some feeling that they have never felt before. I tell them this is how to practice think the movement first, lead it with your eyes.

Really relax use no force.

david