Yang Family Tai Chi Discussion Board

Greetings Bamboo leaf,

Thank you kindly for that reference to the Zen website...Taming the Bull...Exceptionally interesting and helpfull.

Thank you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.

Hi Kal,

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> I’m finding it really challenging to train myself to respond with an attack as soon as I feel the need to defend (so that the whole movement is seamless, part of the same unified whole that is emptying in one location as it fills in another). And yet, on those rare moments where it works, it feels like the easiest and most natural way to respond.</font>

Yes, this is exactly it. Attack and defense overlap or are even the same thing.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> You’ve said that very well! It sounds really right but I’m not entirely sure I get it. Let me see if I understand what you mean. Please tell me if I’ve misunderstood! Operating in the lee of your opponent’s flow: when your opponent has an intent, it can be likened to something solid moving towards you, like a boulder. Having an intent is like a rocky obstruction that prevents the opponent from understanding your response. You can stick to the side of their rolling rock, just going along for the ride, without the opponent really registering what you’re doing there b/c they cannot penetrate the rocky exterior of their solid intent in order to feel what you’re up to. Their intent is a part of that Venn diagram of understanding that excludes awareness of you. Then, as the intent-boulder is coming at you, you can apply your judicious 4 oz. of strength at an opportune moment and send that rock off elsewhere.</font>

This is close to my understanding but not quite it. As your opponent is acting with an intent to send energy straight at you, he cannot guard or attack from side to side. If the opponent tries to attack from the side, you can operate straight on. If the opponent tries to attack both straight on and from the side, he has divided his power and will be relatively weak in both places.

If you reverse the order of your operations and first attack/defend from the side, the opponent can now turn the tables and use your intent against you. The idea is that every attack must have a weakness. Where there is full, there must be empty. If you can concentrate on circulating the opponent’s energy and not having it stick within your body, you can always return it to your opponent. If he cannot circulate it back to you, then he is double weighted and must bear the consequences of having the energy lodge in his body.

Another way to think of the 4 oz analogy is to think of the ring in the nose of the bull. If you pull the ring, the bull must follow. If you receive 4 oz of your opponent’s energy and stick to it, you can make all of his energy follow these 4 oz. You can control his movements.

On the other hand, if you try to push the ring, you end up resisting the force of the bull and get squashed. If you refuse to follow your opponent and refuse to receive the 4 oz, you end up resisting and get squashed. As long as you “follow” the 4 oz, you are safe from the damage the rest of your opponent’s energy can do. What is confusing is that “receiving” 4 oz is not the same as “resisting” 4 oz. This is where your intent or mindset comes into play. What is your mind telling your body to do, receive energy for later use or resist energy as a protective reflex?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> When I asked my Yang style teacher about the movement of the dan tien, he clarified that it’s not that we focus our attention ON our dantien, it’s that we focus our attention FROM the dantien, allowing you to operate instinctively. (At least, that’s what I understood from the lecture.)</font>

This sounds correct to me, except that I might quibble with some of the connotations of “instinctive.” I think the idea is that you must move in a whole body fashion. The Dantian and waist area are the nexus of movement. If you leave focus only on your arms or the attachment point with the opponent, you can forget that your arm movement is linked with waist and leg movement.

I have had an additional thought about the whole idea of keeping calm. This is something I have tried to work on lately.

I think that in many positions, we interpret the opponent’s touch as a threat that needs to be avoided or eliminated. By yielding to these tendencies we commit the fault of diu1, which means losing contact with the opponent’s energy. We then become anxious about the next touch we encounter and become obsessed with the speed of the exchanges, because there is a particular feel that we are trying to avoid and which we cannot avoid except for brief moments.

Contrast this attitude of avoiding threatening contact with one that welcomes and even needs direct contact and engagement. Here you actually want the opponent to apply energy to you, because it gives you a point of control and allows you to increase your margin of safety. There is much less of a trigger for panic, since energy is what you want and need. With the more calm, the more control. With the more control, the more calm.

Take care,
Audi

That's a nice post Audi

Hi Audi and others,

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
If you can concentrate on circulating the opponent’s energy and not having it stick within your body, you can always return it to your opponent. </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nice description there. Can you expand a little on what you think it means to circulate your opponent’s energy through your body? Not so much how as what is happening. Are you talking about circulating their energy within your body without outward movement (until you return it to them)? Or are you talking about moving your body so as to conserve momentum (the way a Slinky spring toy moves)? It’s probably the same thing, but on different scales.

I’m slowly coming to a new understanding of circulating the opponent’s energy through my body. Previously, I’ve felt that it’s difficult to keep other people’s energy from impinging on my sense of personal space. So when we push, and I feel their energy start to come into me, it feels like something that should not be there so I want to tense up and resist. Then I thought maybe it was better to see about dissolving the boundaries between me and them, to let everything come in pass through me like wind or water, because if they found no resistance, then they could just go through without affecting me. But that didn’t work either. It was disturbing b/c there was too much information coming in, more than I could handle or tolerate, and I think it was disturbing for others b/c they couldn’t tell where I was, or the edges of me blurred in to their space and then I was too much up in their space. It was like I was absorbing too much—their energy was getting stuck in me anyway b/c I was unable to yield that much without feeling like there was too much of them in me and that I was losing my sense of self. Not good!

So now I’m thinking of myself as more solid, still trying to be springy and focus on yielding, but now when I let energy pass through me, it’s only the energy that comes in and not the sense of the person. How to describe it? I guess it’s back to the balloon analogy: a balloon has a distinct surface and boundary. If you hit it, it will yield and spin or bounce, but your hand does not go into the balloon. The force of your hand acts on the balloon, and the energy passes through it, but the thing that exerted the force does not. It’s the container, the skin of the balloon surface, which allows the balloon have a sense of solidity, to move through the air without dispersing into the air itself. If the balloon’s skin is dissolved or punctured, it deflates and collapses in on itself. There is nothing that can stick to the surface of anything pushing at it. All the air leaks out and becomes indistinguishable from the surrounding air. A balloon without its skin isn’t even a balloon. It’s just air and a person could wave his hands around all he likes without being able to feel anything solid.

Yeah, I was really going about it all wrong. Information can still be transmitted through the skin of a balloon. If I am clear about where my edge is, I can still stick and listen. My surface can be quite flexible and adapt to the changing shape of my opponent’s intent. I can still react to everything they do, but it’s easier to understand what I’m doing and what they’re doing. My blurred edges thing just made it really confusing to tell who was doing what and was dreadfully uncomfortable for all involved.

Back to circulating energy: It’s not always possible for me to return the opponent’s energy in a simple circle. I just noticed that when I can’t circle back directly, I sometimes make an extra “loop”or two (horizontal, vertical, at an angle, spiral, whatever) to conserve the momentum of their in-coming push. When I do this, I feel like I’m yielding & sticking to the 4 oz. you were talking about when thinking of pulling a bull along by its nose-ring (nice analogy, btw).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>I think that in many positions, we interpret the opponent’s touch as a threat that needs to be avoided or eliminated. By yielding to these tendencies we commit the fault of diu1, which means losing contact with the opponent’s energy. We then become anxious about the next touch we encounter and become obsessed with the speed of the exchanges, because there is a particular feel that we are trying to avoid and which we cannot avoid except for brief moments.

Contrast this attitude of avoiding threatening contact with one that welcomes and even needs direct contact and engagement. Here you actually want the opponent to apply energy to you, because it gives you a point of control and allows you to increase your margin of safety. There is much less of a trigger for panic, since energy is what you want and need. With the more calm, the more control. With the more control, the more calm. </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good points--it’s not the opponent who gets us, it’s our own anxieties. It’s interesting too, how with one person we can stay calm, with another person we are anxious. And although the physical movements may be very similar, the intent can be enough to change the entire situation. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head—it’s trying to get away and avoid a threatening contact that takes us away from the seemingly paradoxical safety of solid, aware contact.

On a related note, I did a google search the other day on martial arts and it came up with this article by a woman named Lynn Finger on the idea martial arts as a vehicle for overcoming alienation from the self, the enemy within, and finally recognizing that the enemy does not exist. If you can wrap your mind around the fact that it’s a martial arts article in an astrology magazine, there are some interesting ideas there. A lot of my focus in tai chi training is figuring out how to calm down and stop fighting with myself so many things in this article resonated. You can find it at:
http://www.mountainastrologer.com/finger.html

For example, she quotes the founder of Aikido, Morihei Ueshiba (1883-1969):
"I am the Universe ... when an enemy tries to fight with me, the universe itself, he has to break the harmony of the universe. Hence, at the moment he has the mind to fight with me, he is already defeated." Something to aspire to anyway!

I’ve been resistant to the idea of astrology, but the article drew me enough that for kicks I had my star chart drawn up, and whaddayaknow, it correlates with her analysis. Weird! I don’t know what the probability is, but it was strange.

For those of you who read the article: what do you think about her alienation thesis? When you look at yourself and the others you’re training with, does it seem the case that others are rebellious social outcasts struggling with the loneliness and alienation of (possible) genius through the medium of tai chi (or whatever other martial art you’ve trained in)?

Thanks,
Kal

Greetings Kal and everyone else,

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> Are you talking about circulating their energy within your body without outward movement (until you return it to them)? Or are you talking about moving your body so as to conserve momentum (the way a Slinky spring toy moves)? It’s probably the same thing, but on different scales.</font>

I am not sure of the physics of this, but I can think of at least three different types of situations that might apply.


One is the “balloon” effect you described. The opponent’s energy “compresses” your elasticity and then rebounds back into him. In this case, movement relevant to the ground is not necessary at the moment of “impact,” but there will be a contraction and expansion (closing and opening?).


A second case is when there is a complete transference of momentum. An analogous situation is when one billiard ball hits another and stops, but causes the other ball to fly away from the point of impact. When one pushes the opponent out, is the stance compromised?


A third is when you steel the “pivot” point of the opponent and she loses the leverage needed to make her power go into you rather than reversing direction into her. This is what, rightly or wrongly, I think of as “Intercepting Energy.”

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">So now I’m thinking of myself as more solid, still trying to be springy and focus on yielding, but now when I let energy pass through me, it’s only the energy that comes in and not the sense of the person. How to describe it? I guess it’s back to the balloon analogy: a balloon has a distinct surface and boundary. If you hit it, it will yield and spin or bounce, but your hand does not go into the balloon. The force of your hand acts on the balloon, and the energy passes through it, but the thing that exerted the force does not. It’s the container, the skin of the balloon surface, which allows the balloon have a sense of solidity, to move through the air without dispersing into the air itself. If the balloon’s skin is dissolved or punctured, it deflates and collapses in on itself. There is nothing that can stick to the surface of anything pushing at it. All the air leaks out and becomes indistinguishable from the surrounding air. A balloon without its skin isn’t even a balloon. It’s just air and a person could wave his hands around all he likes without being able to feel anything solid.</font>

This sounds like a great description. If I could only do this consistently, I would be in heaven.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Back to circulating energy: It’s not always possible for me to return the opponent’s energy in a simple circle. I just noticed that when I can’t circle back directly, I sometimes make an extra “loop”or two (horizontal, vertical, at an angle, spiral, whatever) to conserve the momentum of their in-coming push. When I do this, I feel like I’m yielding & sticking to the 4 oz. you were talking about when thinking of pulling a bull along by its nose-ring (nice analogy, btw). </font>

I think you are correct in this. I was thinking recently about the circles involved in the simple one-hand circling exercise the Yangs teach. Although it is probably easiest to think of the horizontal circle described by the touch point, there are actually many more. The axis of the forearm rotates in a circle, as if drilling with the fingertips. The hand/wrist moves more or less in the same circle as the touch point. The elbow describes a different circle, as controlled by the shoulder. The shoulder itself probably describes a small circle that is separate from the others. The spine rotates in yet another circle, which is supported by yet a different rotation of the pelvis.

If the interaction of the “horizontal” circles is complex, the interaction of the circles in the vertical, four-hand drill is truly hard to conceptualize. Even the major touch point moves in a kind of bent figure eight.

By the way, Cheng Man-Ch’ing was the first person I recall talking about the ring in the nose of a bull. I want to make clear that that image is not original with me. From what I recall, he used this image to explain why Taijiquan’s theories are useful when applied to living beings, but do not have extraordinary utility against inanimate objects. In other words, you can lead a bull around by a nose ring, but cannot do the same with a ring in a block of cement.

As for your question about “alienation,” I think there is a great deal to be said. I do not think that I go so far as what is described on your link, but I do like much of what is behind the philosophy of “wuwei,” which is common to the Daoist/Neo-Confucian theories that Tajiquan is probably based on. Basically, if we can suppress our desire to control the universe in its infinite detail, we can find a way to co-exist and harmonize with it. Some people talk about studying Taijiquan as a process of unlearning things, rather than of learning things.

Take care,
Audi

Hi Audi,

It sure is fascinating to think of all the circles that go into every part of the form. Lately I’ve been thinking about spirals: how minute circles made with the waist generate larger spirals made with the arms, and everything is spiraling and circling at the same time. Trippy.

Sometimes my loops and spirals look more like the flight path of a cartoon bumble bee. I can attribute these to a lack of understanding-energy on my part, or perhaps failure to anticipate what’s coming in time to align myself to return it properly. If I could understand more quickly, then maybe I could return the energy precisely and efficiently without extra loops and flourishes. Occasionally efficiency happens (one way is the bouncing I was talking about on the “Bouncing” thread), but it’s kind of interesting in the meantime to see how momentum can (more or less) be conserved by buzzing around like a drunken bumble bee. Come to think of it, Jackie Chan’s movements in the Drunken Master movies are sort of visually similar to what I’m talking about—some circles with the waist or torso, and then boom, send the incoming energy right back at ‘em…or fall over all by myself if I get dizzy and lose my balance.

I think this looping is most similar to your billiards balls analogy, except that in circling (or looping) you have to join your energy to theirs and add enough of your own to change the direction of the original push.

I think I wasn’t very clear when I was talking about Slinkies. Some of the looping looks like a Slinky when you hold it vertically between your hands, stretched out, and make horizontal circles with your hands so that the toy moves in a helix. I tend to think of this as “escape mode” or retreat, a way of saving energy so I can wait for a good opportunity.

Then there’s the compression wave motion of the Slinky: it’s held stretched out on a table between two people. One person, still holding it, shoves it and you have a horizontal wave motion where the wave compresses some parts of the Slinky while stretching others. I think that chi can travel through the body this way and perhaps be…well, I don’t quite know what to do with this idea yet. Or maybe I do: maybe we train to ride the leading edge of this wave and this is the 4 oz. that we keep talking about. Any insight on this one? It still confuses me.

I like that image of “stealing the pivot point.” And yeah, I’m going to be working on the balloon thing for a while yet too—but wouldn’t it be nice?

I’ve heard that bit about tai chi being a process of unlearning things and it makes sense to me. If alienation is a self-imposed way of attempting to control the universe, then unlearning and letting go of the notion of separation from the opponent, the self, and the universe sounds like a good way to harmonize with the universe.

Best,
Kal

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by psalchemist:
<B>Greetings all contributors,

Upon review of the accumulated materials involved from previous postings on the topic of 'The form in 20 minutes' in the 'barehand' forum I discovered a point I had neglected to pursue at the time, but which insists persistantly upon halting my attention and peaking my interest.

My query derives from the quotation Cesar provided which stated:

<The Taiji idea is to practice slowly but the idea is not to do the movements but to use your mind to control your movements. It is not your movements doing the movements it is using the inside to do the movement so every movement can be very final... > - James Fu

Probe, inspect, explore I must, or else surely be driven mad from curiosity.

The idea struck me recently that this is probably a much more profound concept than I had originally conceived it to be. Upon surface investigation it seems quite simple and obvious, but when I consider it more deeply, I am pummelled with doubts as to the real meaning behind the instruction.

Perhaps some of the more experienced Taijiquan practitioners would consider contributing their thoughts, knowledge and references on the matter of mind intention in Taijiquan solo practice form, since I myself have very little experience to speak of in this domain.

The first portion of the statement reads:
< The idea is not to do the movements but to use your mind to control your movements. > - James Fu

The question that really sticks in my mind is ...
Is this longstanding Taijiquan ideology simply drawing on the very basic need of using the mind or brain to move the body?

Please bear with me, this undoubtedly will be difficult to express...

All physical, bodily movement, of course, must be stemming originally from 'intention', the mind, the brain.

As far as I am educated, this is fact.

Whether conscious, subconscious or unconscious, all states of mind may incite movement, however their inception, indisputably must issue originally from the mind. In other words, basically, it would be technically impossible to manifest bodily movement WITHOUT the mind's participation.

Please allow me to provide an example to better explain...

When I blink my eyes, for example, this is done with my mind...of course.

Blinking one's eyes can be acheived on all levels of brain functionning: conscious, subconscious, unconscious.

Consciously, one could think ' I wish to blink my eyes', this message is then sent to the eyelids and surrounding muscles, tendons etc. through the neurological pathways as an 'electric' impulse, which, upon reaching the designated areas proceeds to blink the eyes.

The body and mind function so effectively, that unless there is some disturbance, physical defect or mental incapacity, the body will respond almost simultaneously to the minds command, a fraction of a second following the thought.

Subconsciously, if one had a dust particle in the eye, was exposed to a sudden bright flash of light, or simply when the eyeball required lubrication, the eyes would blink without conscious intention, doing so 'automatically', as remedy or self protection mechanism. This is still 'mind intent', a different level of consciousness, but 'mind intention' nonetheless.

Unconsciously, when we sleep, for example- we are almost completely unconscious. When we dream, however it is proven that our eyes blink,the eyelids tremble and the eyes shift according to our unconscious 'mind intent' from the activities we perceive occurring in the dreamstate.

The body would act out it's dream movements physically if the brain were lacking a particular chemical which is automatically transmitted to the brain during sleep hours.

Sleepwalkers get up and walk around in their semi-conscious state due to a lack of this chemical 'injection' provided by the body. Ultimately the mind/brain must give the orders to the body to supply this function, then the body supplies the substance to the brain in return(if it possesses these chemicals in sufficient quantity) and the brain gives the 'order' to necessarily paralyse the dreamer while asleep. Another automatic self preservation technique, inborn in the human being. So even in an unconscious state the mind commands the body. There is mind intention.

Movement cannot be derived from movement. An intention, be it conscious, subconscious or unconscious must be present to provoke physical movement of any sort.

Understanding this however, ironically, is the source of my confusion about the statement provided for Taijiquan.

Given the thought that all movement cannot possibly be executed without the existance of intention on some level, leads me to question what is truly meant by ...'use the mind intent to move the body'. I think this must somehow surpass the obvious connotations which I have presented here.

What intention are we speaking of exactly?

Is this a particular set of imageries, pertaining to a conflict against an opponent?

Also, this is the sole way I can understand the second part of the quote which dictates:
< It is using the inside to do the movements so every movement can be very final... > - James Fu

Again, the only manner in which I can view bringing 'finality' to a movement would be if I had one specific application in mind, which could actually be cordonned off mentally as beginning, middle, and end processes. Which could in turn be 'finalized' mentally and therefore physically at the end of it's execution.

The only conclusion I am able to draw from these statements, myself, is that I should be visualizing an opponent before me and imagining the various applications I am performing.

Ultimately after many years of solo form practice this would neurologically imprint these applications in one's memory and facilitate their passage or automatic reaction when required. The longer one performs these techniques with conscious mind intention the more subconscious and natural they become to perform, to the point where one no longer has to think to execute an application.

There are different levels of mind intention. After thirty years of practicing a certain application it becomes as subconscious as blinking the dust out from one's eyes.

I am interested in hearing what others have to say on the subject of mind intention in Taijiquan terms.

Please feel free to contradict, ammend, or appeal any of these comments presented. I am in no way any type of authority, or expert, merely a beginner with developping theories, premises and deductions.

Thank-you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.


[This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 09-26-2003).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To me, 'yi', or 'intention' is part of a more general Mind/spirit development. Through concentrated effort, the discursive mind is brought to a fine point - this calms the mind and helps focus the intention so that a breakthrough in expansive awareness occurs. When this happens, the 'Mind' expands to encompass the entire enivronment, and everything in it. It is as if we are stood in a three-dimensional sphere of awareness. Our bodies exist in this sphere of awareness, and our limbs move through this awareness. For me, 'yi' is used to guide qi smoothly around, without becoming stuck anywhere, and to focus qi in specific areas, for short-term purposes. Bear in mind that the advanced pratitioner literally 'envelops' the opponent with their own 'awareness'. The 'yi' can move around and through their opponent's body - causing disruption in the opponent's qi flow - thus making it easier to uproot them.

To me, 'yi', or 'intention' is part of a more general Mind/spirit development. Through concentrated effort, the discursive mind is brought to a fine point - this calms the mind and helps focus the intention so that a breakthrough in expansive awareness occurs. When this happens, the 'Mind' expands to encompass the entire enivronment, and everything in it. It is as if we are stood in a three-dimensional sphere of awareness. Our bodies exist in this sphere of awareness, and our limbs move through this awareness. For me, 'yi' is used to guide qi smoothly around, without becoming stuck anywhere, and to focus qi in specific areas, for short-term purposes. Bear in mind that the advanced pratitioner literally 'envelops' the opponent with their own 'awareness'. The 'yi' can move around and through their opponent's body - causing disruption in the opponent's qi flow - thus making it easier to uproot them.

---------------------
Good for you,HengYu

To my best of experience, put the mind at the place of the belly, always trying to feel comfort and relaxation and put the "Yi" at the spine,feeling the natural Qi rhythm in softness and in openning cracks.

Always keep the mind and Yi there, doing the above and come to see the spirit'Seng'
response naturally to attacts from all the directions.

Indeed, uprooting the opponent works by Yi, not by Jin or Strength.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kalamondin:
<B>Hi Audi,

It sure is fascinating to think of all the circles that go into every part of the form. Lately I’ve been thinking about spirals: how minute circles made with the waist generate larger spirals made with the arms, and everything is spiraling and circling at the same time. Trippy.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Kal,

We are taught that all the power in Tai Chi comes from spirals - specifically opening and closing spirals - and that these should be manifested externally at the beginning and also internally, using the Yi. As one progresses, the idea is that the external diminishes and eventually disappears and only the internal spiralling from the centre remains, and is what generates all power.

Every move in the form contains either opening or closing spirals, or both, or so we are taught, and when posture testing we are always trying to open and close internally without moving externally.

I don't know if that is 'standard' (for want of a better word) teaching in Yang style or not, but it is certainly regarded as key in our school.

Cheers,

WB

WOW !!! ..............

I know this post is old but i would like to add my 2 cents.

1




Wow !!!...................

i know this post is old but i would like to add my 2 cents.

1) let me THANX Psalchemist, for asking the question

2) let me THANX all who answered the question

i onli wish i had been able to be around when this topic was fresh not that i would have add to it but to be able to communicate with others on such a vast and crucial question

i THANX the TAO for taiji and all it's masters and students, how wundaful life is with you all inthe world

May you all be blessed and your TAIJIQUAN grow with each moment

WUJI -- the Place Where all possibilities exist .

best regards to all readers and posters
Heping/Peace

Dear Loong Men,

Please contribute some ideas and theory on the WUJI you so much profess upon.
It seems really interesting.

Books, write up, journals, etc.

Thank you in advance for your kind contribution.

Regards.

Isaac