Yang Family Tai Chi Discussion Board

[quote="Phocion"]Hello everyone,

Next lines:

精神能提得起，則無遲重之虞；粘依能跟得靈，方見落空之妙。
If the spirit can be raised, then there is no worry about being slow or heavy. If you can be sticky and listen, you can follow and be agile, and just there appears the wonder of emptiness.

The first sentence is also in the Mental Elucidation.

Cheers!
Dave[/quote

HI DAVE

I HATE TO INFORM YOU THAT YOUR TAIJIQUAN TRANSLATION IS AT RISK TO MISS THE TAIJI SLOW BOAT TO THE OLD CHINA. ESPECIALLY ON YOUR LAST LEG (THE LAST TWO LINES). IT IS VERY HI-TECH. YOU MIGHT NEED TO VISIT THE OFFICE OF THE PRINCIPLE OF TAIJI TO CHECK THEM OVER. ASK FOR GEEK. HAVE FUN STUDY THEM.

CIAO,
YSLIM NEED LARGE PRINT

Hi yslim,

I've missed that boat before, and I think I've seen that principal before. Somebody give me a correction, please.

Cheers!
Dave

Greetings all,

Great discussions! I have some questions and comments in no particular order.

方有所得

Does 方 here mean " method" or " only". In other words does 刻刻留意，方有所得 mean "Every moment keep this in mind: There is a method which gets results. " or "every moment keep this in mind: only that way gets results."

須知：一動無有不動，一靜無有不靜。視動猶靜，視靜猶動。

You must know: As soon as there is movement there is no place that doesn't move, as soon as there is stillness there is no place that isn't still. Regard movement as stillness, regard stillness as movement.

For the last phrase, why not: "if you view movement, there is yet stillness; if you view stillness, there is yet movement."? In other words, is this not simply a reiteration of "seek stillness in movement"?

Other taijiquan masters have mentioned Mengzi’s idea of 浩然之氣, including Zheng Manqing (Thirteen Treatises), and, I think Da Liu. I’m inclined to think they were all following Wu Yuxiang’s lead, and probably with good reason, no?

“vast flowing qi” ....This 浩然之氣, in Chinese character is means to the Chinese sage of the ancient one such as Confucius is not the the same qi/chi that we are using in martial art today. To those ancient one they are gong-ho all about the up-righteous Movement. Do the "right-thing for the greatness" Movement. It is a greater than the life itself. This 浩然之氣 is means "the natural greatness of a soul". That kind of chi ! That is why the sage is not that easy to come by

Louis and yslim, thank you for these explanations. It squares with what I would have guessed, but I was not aware that early Confucians cared much about Qi in any form. This makes my understanding of Zhu Xi's writings a little easier.

I don't think we differ much on the reading of the line, as I am comfortable with your “The one who emphasizes qi will have no strength." But what kind of strength can Wu be talking about? If integrated strength is what we wish to achieve in taiji, and nurturing qi is they way to attain it, I don't think Wu can be mean we will lack integrated strength if we emphasize qi. But since valuing or emphasizing qi is already to move down the road toward integrated strength, I think he must mean that one who emphasizes qi will be without/will not use localized muscular strength.

Dave, for whatever it's worth I think I agree with Louis and his explanations. Although Jin and LI are sometimes distinguished, I think this distinction is not so clear in normal Chinese and this needs some explanation or context to make it clear. Without such an explanation or context, I think a phrase such as 無力 can be understood only in a negative sense, just as "powerless" carries a negative connotation.

As for the contradictory nature of "nurturing" without "emphasizing", I think such seeming double talk is common in our art. Often to achieve a certain thing, we must not try to do the thing directly, but rather concentrate on doing something else, or even it's opposite. To strive for Wuwei (無為), we must try not to step in and do the universe's work for it. To accomplish any one thing, part should come from us and part from the universe. For example, to achieve movement like a Tai Chi ball, we should not try to move like a ball, but rather use our mind to make our body adopt the characteristics of a ball. Then the universe will take care of the movement.

The Classics and the Explanation are often grounded in experience, so perhaps I just haven't had the requisite experience to make sense of the line. When Wu says "One who values qi will not have strength," my response is: "Huh?" But when he says "If you follow the other then you will be lively, if you follow yourself then you will be sluggish," I say "Yeah! That I have felt."

I think experience is an excellent criterion for understanding the classics. I think there are several ways to understand this line within what many have experienced. One way is that if you value something, you will be unwilling to give it up, and yet to do Fajin you must send out Qi. We want to allow the Qi to circulate freely, but do not necessarily want to accumulate the maximum amount. Some see Qi as the key to Tai Chi and so practice certain Qi Gong exercises without proper guidance and harm themselves. When you do Fajin and concentrate on mobilizing Qi, the result will be scattered and have little effect. Imagine shooting an arrow at a target. Generally, the more powerful the bow and the more powerful the draw, the straighter the arrow will fly; however, your focus should not be on the power of the bow. This will take care of itself. Your focus should be on drawing smoothly and on the target. For our form, especially for those not practicing at a high level, you should not even concentrate on a particular breathing pattern and try to match them to the movements. If you do that, your breathing will not feel natural and your Qi will tend to rise.

精神能提得起，則無遲重之虞；粘依能跟得靈，方見落空之妙。
If the spirit can be raised, then there is no worry about being slow or heavy. If you can be sticky and listen, you can follow and be agile, and just there appears the wonder of emptiness.

I might suggest the following:

If the spirit can be raised, then there is no worry about being slow or heavy. If you can be stick and yield, you can follow in an agile way, and only in this way appears the wonder of having the opponent's attacks come to nothing.

I think that 粘 and 依 are used as a Yin-Yang pair.

That's all for now.

Take care,
Audi

Thanks for the reply Audi. So much to deal with.

Audi wrote:方有所得
Does 方 here mean " method" or " only". In other words does 刻刻留意，方有所得 mean "Every moment keep this in mind: There is a method which gets results. " or "every moment keep this in mind: only that way gets results."

Reading "this" as refering to "The heart/mind is the commander, the qi is the flag, the spirit is the commander-in-chief, the body carries out the order" in the previous line? It makes sense.

須知：一動無有不動，一靜無有不靜。視動猶靜，視靜猶動。
You must know: As soon as there is movement there is no place that doesn't move, as soon as there is stillness there is no place that isn't still. Regard movement as stillness, regard stillness as movement.

For the last phrase, why not: "if you view movement, there is yet stillness; if you view stillness, there is yet movement."? In other words, is this not simply a reiteration of "seek stillness in movement"?

I'm not sure I understand the use of "view" here. Do you something like, "When you see movement, there is also stillness; when you see stillness, there is also movement"? That would probably be more natural than my rendering.

Dave, for whatever it's worth I think I agree with Louis and his explanations. Although Jin and LI are sometimes distinguished, I think this distinction is not so clear in normal Chinese and this needs some explanation or context to make it clear. Without such an explanation or context, I think a phrase such as 無力 can be understood only in a negative sense, just as "powerless" carries a negative connotation.

As for the contradictory nature of "nurturing" without "emphasizing", I think such seeming double talk is common in our art. Often to achieve a certain thing, we must not try to do the thing directly, but rather concentrate on doing something else, or even it's opposite. To strive for Wuwei (無為), we must try not to step in and do the universe's work for it.

There is much in what you (and everyone else) have (has) to say. I think that perhaps I am focusing too much on the link between qi and strength. Perhaps Wu is just qi as a specific example of a more general principle. From the last half of the line I found insightful: "if you follow yourself then you will be sluggish." Of course if you mind is on your qi, you will be sluggish (and lack power). But also, if you mind is on your stucture, your movement, your technique, your lunch, how you're going to repond on this board, etc., you will also be sluggish (and lack power).

精神能提得起，則無遲重之虞；粘依能跟得靈，方見落空之妙。
If the spirit can be raised, then there is no worry about being slow or heavy. If you can be sticky and listen, you can follow and be agile, and just there appears the wonder of emptiness.

I might suggest the following:

If the spirit can be raised, then there is no worry about being slow or heavy. If you can be stick and yield, you can follow in an agile way, and only in this way appears the wonder of having the opponent's attacks come to nothing.
I think that 粘 and 依 are used as a Yin-Yang pair.

I don't know what to think about this. I can accept 依 as yield, but you're reading "stick" (粘) as the yang side of the pair? And I don't mind rendering 方 as "only in this way," but rendering 落空之妙 as "having the opponent's attacks come to nothing" seems to me to be a little loose. But I'm not good enough at this here Chinese to say that it can't be done.

Anyway, thanks again for the response.

Cheers!
Dave

Greetings Folks,

Audi, regarding 方, I think in each of the three cases in this document, Wu is using it as an adverbial particle we could render as “then,” or “and then.” So, for 刻刻留意, 方有所得, I would translate it as “Attend carefully, moment by moment, and then you will attain it.” The 有所得 construction is prevalent in classical texts as something like “to have one’s goal.”

Note, too, the parallel position of 則 and 方 in the following lines we’re discussing:

精神能提得起, 則無遲重之虞.
黏依能跟得靈, 方見落空之妙.

For me, these are the most challenging lines in the document to translate. They are evidently written as parallel expressions, but the parallel is not quite neat. The compound 精神 “vital spirit” is recognizable, but 黏依 “sticking/yielding” is not. I can’t quite agree, Audi, that it’s a yin/yang pair; I think it’s just two desirable taiji skills. Sticking is a familiar taiji concept, but yī 依 is not so familiar. It could mean “yield” or perhaps “comply” or “go with,” but I can’t settle on a firm rendering. The 得 is serving as a co-verb in both lines. That gēn 跟, however, is odd. My guess is that it’s being used reflexively to describe the interaction of “sticking and yielding.” So, here’s what I come up with:

If the vital spirit can be raised, then there will be no apprehension of dullness or heaviness.

If sticking and yielding can follow each other nimbly, then you will see the marvel of landing on emptiness.

Fun stuff!

Take care,
Louis

Well, I've got to ask about

精神能提得起, 則無遲重之虞.
黏依能跟得靈, 方見落空之妙.

If these lines are supposed to be parallel, why can't they be rendered:

If essence and spirit can be raised, then there will be no worry about being slow or heavy;
if sticking and yielding can be agile, then there will appear the wonder of emptiness.

Cheers!
Dave

Phocion wrote:Well, I've got to ask about

精神能提得起, 則無遲重之虞.
黏依能跟得靈, 方見落空之妙.

If these lines are supposed to be parallel, why can't they be rendered:

If essence and spirit can be raised, then there will be no worry about being slow or heavy;
if sticking and yielding can be agile, then there will appear the wonder of emptiness.

Cheers!
Dave

Hi Dave,

Well, the problem I see is that, a) you haven't accounted for 跟, and b) 落空之妙 isn't just "the wonder of emptiness," but "the wonder of [leading the opponent to] land on emptiness." The phrase 落空 has a special meaning in taijiquan; it's where you lead the opponent to land. It literally means, "to fall into a hole," but is also a figure of speech meaning "to come to nothing," or the like. See: http://www.zdic.net/cd/ci/12/ZdicE8Zdic ... 199499.htm

Wu was being very economical, perhaps to keep to a pattern, but as I say, the parallel is less than neat.

--Louis

Hi Louis,

Thanks for the reply.

Louis Swaim wrote:b) 落空之妙 isn't just "the wonder of emptiness," but "the wonder of [leading the opponent to] land on emptiness."

Thanks for that.

a) you haven't accounted for 跟,

Well, I will eventually have to account for a great many things, and 跟 is among the least of my worries. However, let me try. I am just groping around here, as I freely admit the grammar of the lines puzzles me, particularly 提得起/跟得靈.

Here's my attempt at a literal rendering of these two lines.

精神能提得起, 則無遲重之虞.
Essence spirit can lift get raised, then without slow heavy [possessive] worry.

黏依能跟得靈, 方見落空之妙.
Stick yield can comply-with get agility, only-then appears lead-to-emptiness [possessive] wonder.

Smoothing out the lines gets me something like:

If essence and spirit can be raised, then there will be no worry about being slow or heavy;
if sticking and yielding can be agile, then there will appear the wonder of leading to emptiness.

Could you please walk through this, speaking slowly and using small words, and show me where I'm going wrong?

Thanks in advance.

This will be my last post on these two lines (I promise!). Next time, I'm moving on.

Cheers!
Dave

Greetings Dave,

I didn't mean to imply that you were going wrong. I think your translation works in getting the general meaning. I'm just groping around too with regard to understanding the function of 跟 in the phrase.

Carry on!

Louis

Not wrong, but not right.

The next lines:

往復須分陰陽; 進退須有轉合。機由己發，力從人借。
In moving forward and backward you must separate yin and yang; in advancing and retreating there must be turning and joining. The opportunity comes from the self, power is borrowed from the other.
----------------------

The first sentence resembles two sentences in the Mental Elucidation:

往復須有摺疊。進退須有轉換。
In moving forward or back there must be folding. In advancing or retreating there must be changes.

The words "yin" and "yang" don't appear in the Mental Elucidation, so, if the Explanation is its precursor, Wu must have deliberately cut them out, substituting "folding." And in the second clause he substitutes the more general "changes" for "turning and joining."

Nothing like the second of our two sentences appears in the Classics, although it seems perfectly natural in a push-hands context.

Cheers!
Dave

Greetings Dave,

Again, I think your translation is good! There are some subtle terms I would render differently, however. The compound 轉合zhuǎnhé is a term from literary composition meaning “transitions and conclusions.” It’s related to a four-character phrase, 起承轉合 qǐchéngzhuǎnhé known as the four cardinal steps of composition (for example the type of composition one would write in government exams): the introduction, the follow-up, the transition, and the conclusion. Wu was aware of this term, and saw something analogous between composing an essay or poem with performing taijiquan movement. He referenced 起承轉合 in another text he wrote, 十三勢說略 A Brief Summary of the Thirteen Dispositions.

The other thing I would consider is rendering 機 as “trigger” and 發 as “release.” In early texts that Wu would have been conversant with, these two terms frequently appear together or in proximity with these meanings. For example, in the Sunzi, Chapter 5, 勢如張弩，節如機發。 “His strategic advantage (shih) is like a drawn crossbow and his timing is like releasing the trigger.” (Roger Ames, trans., Sun-tzu: The Art of Warfare, p. 118/120.) This fits right in with the lines in the Mental Elucidation, “Store energy as though drawing a bow. Issue energy as though releasing an arrow.”

So, I would translate these lines something like:

In going to and fro you must distinguish yin and yang.
Advancing and retreating must have transitions and conclusions.
While the trigger is touched off by me,
The force is borrowed from the other.

往復須分陰陽; 進退須有轉合。機由己發，力從人借


What do you think?

Take care,
Louis

Hi Louis,

Thank you for the elucidation of 轉合. That's just kind of thing I would miss, being without much experience in Chinese literature. I can't say I'm happy with the rendering, since in a taiji context saying "Advancing and retreating must have transitions and conclusions" seems less than clear. But I can't think of a way to preserve the literary allusion while being appropriate to the context.

It's interesting that Wu, whatever he saw in the process of writing an eight-legged essay which illuminated taiji for him, later changed his mind about the line. The parallel line in the Mental Elucidation substitutes for the final character and changes the meaning. Rather than 轉合, we have: "Advancing and retreating must have changes" [轉換].

As to rendering 機 as “trigger” and 發 as “release,” I don't know. You are certainly correct that Wu would have known the terms from Sunzi, and there is an echo in those lines from the Mental Elucidation. But 機 only appears twice in the Classics, in consecutive lines in the Taijiquan Jing, and both times with the meaning of "opportunity."

I looked through the Mental Elucidation and found 發 used four times. Each time I have it as "issue," but "release" seems to work just as well except in the phrase 發勁如放箭 . There, 放 really is "release" in the sense of "let go" or "free." So rendering 發 as "release" gives us: "Release jin like releasing an arrow." Which is OK, I guess. Maybe I'm just nervous about wandering too far from the dictionary definition and obscuring the Chinese by rendering different characters with the same English word.

But if we're going to go that route, I'd render the line "While the trigger is pulled by me." <pedant>"Touched off" is an idiom from the days of matchlock firearms. Then, one touched the end of the match (actually, a very slow-burning fuze) to the powder in the priming pan to fire the weapon. But ancient Chinese crossbows, like modern firearms, have a trigger which is pulled to fire the weapon. I prefer the more direct rendering.</pedant>

Thanks for bringing these points up; I would never have thought of them myself. And since this is more me muttering to myself, don't feel obliged to respond. I'll have the next lines up tomorrow.

Cheers!
Dave

Hi Dave,

I appreciate your thoughts on these ideas. This exercise is a great opportunity to think out loud and think through what Wu Yuxiang was thinking through. I agree that “transitions and conclusions” is cumbersome, and Wu likely had a deliberate reason to change it to 轉換 in the Mental Elucidation. In my own translation of that document, I translated 轉換 as “turning transitions,” which I feel better captures the kinesthetic dimension he refers to in his line about “going to and fro,” and “advancing and retreating.” At least that is the way I feel it in my practice.

As to “trigger,” well, I have given a lot of thought to that over the years. The deji deshi 得機得勢 phrase in the Taijiquan Classic is quite idiomatic to taijiquan theory, but I think it’s demonstrably rooted in early military strategy, specifically the Sunzi, but other early texts as well. I shared some of my thinking on that in my notes to the classics in Mastering Yang Style Taijiquan, pp. 195-196. “Opportunity,” of course, is just a translation. The word 機 does indeed mean “opportunity” in some contexts, but already that term is metaphorically rooted in the mechanical device of a crossbow trigger. The very first entry in the Hanyu Da Cidian is 古代弩上發箭的裝置。 “Device for releasing an arrow on the ancient crossbow” As the term evolves to mean what we would call an “opportunity,” today, it is still rooted in that device-based analogy: 事物的關鍵；樞紐。--the “hinge” or “pivot” of a thing, and by extension, a “turning point.”

Translation word choice always involves judgment calls beyond dictionary definitions. I see Wu’s line, 機由己發，力從人借 as speaking to something quite physical—a physical action with a tactile entailment. So that led to my choice of words, “While the trigger is touched off by me, the force is borrowed from the other.” It’s often a matter of personal style and perspective, and that’s why translation is so variable and interesting.

Oh, another example of my perspective—I prefer “differentiate” to “separate” in the phrase 須分陰陽. In my view of yin and yang, they operate on a continuum, so they can’t be separated.

Take care,
Louis

Hi Louis,

Louis Swaim wrote:I agree that “transitions and conclusions” is cumbersome, and Wu likely had a deliberate reason to change it to 轉換 in the Mental Elucidation. In my own translation of that document, I translated 轉換 as “turning transitions,” which I feel better captures the kinesthetic dimension he refers to in his line about “going to and fro,” and “advancing and retreating.”

Although I like “turning transitions” better than “transitions and conclusions,” my problem with the phrase is not that it's cumbersome but that it refers to a process of development in one endeavor (essay writing) applied to different endeavor (push hands). So, how to render 轉換 so that it makes sense (and is useful for the reader) while still maintaining the link Wu saw between the two fields? I suppose that since the steps in essay writing follow naturally from, and are organically related to, each other we could say something like, "in advancing and retreating there must be natural development," but that strikes me as too abstract to be useful. Oh well, yet another phrase that make translating Chinese so, ... fascinating.

As to “trigger,” well, I have given a lot of thought to that over the years. ... The very first entry in the Hanyu Da Cidian is 古代弩上發箭的裝置。 “Device for releasing an arrow on the ancient crossbow.”

Thanks. I did not know that. So "trigger" it must be.

According to Sunzi ch. 5 you quoted above (which you also discuss in Mastering Yang Style Taijiquan--thanks for reminding me about that), it's not merely a matter of pulling the trigger, but of pulling the trigger at the right time: “His strategic advantage (shih) is like a drawn crossbow and his timing is like releasing the trigger.”

How to capture that aspect of 機由己發，力從人借? I'm not sure how to render 發 here, but does "The trigger-point is discharged by me, power is borrowed from the other" do anything for you?

Thinking about timing as an aspect of proper triggering has made me think that the deji deshi (得機得勢) phrase in the Taijiquan Classic must, at root, mean something like: "When you gain the trigger-point, you have the dispositional advantage" (yes, I've been reading Jullien as well--thanks for the reference in the "Mind Intention" thread). I don't know if it works for you, but it certainly reflects something I've found in my practice.

Oh, another example of my perspective—I prefer “differentiate” to “separate” in the phrase 須分陰陽. In my view of yin and yang, they operate on a continuum, so they can’t be separated.

I understand. “Differentiate” and “separate” both have Latin roots which mean to carry apart or place apart. I think now I'd prefer "distinguish," which is less about physical separation and more about discrimination. But tomorrow I will probably have another opinion.

Thanks for the discussion so far. It has been tremendously useful.

Cheers!
Dave

Hello everyone,

The next lines.

發勁須上下相隨，乃能一往無敵. 立身須中正不偏，方能八面支撐.
To issue energy you must mutually coordinate upper and lower, then you can issue in one direction without equal. The upright body must be centered and correct and not lean, only then can you support [force] from the eight directions.

--------------------------------------------

I have the uneasy feeling that I'm missing something in "then you can issue in one direction without equal" (乃能一往無敵), but that's the best I can do.

The second sentence is close to one in the Mental Elucidation.

Corrections, please.

Cheers!
Dave