Kal, Chee,
Thankyou very much for your posts, they help a lot.
Now, in an attempt to tie this back into the rest of the thread...Chee, we do an exercise for centering and rooting which involves the receiver assuming a full forward weighted bow stance and the pusher gradually pushing harder and harder into his arm (which is in ward off position).
The receiver takes as much force as possible in a relaxed manner, allowing his arms to come closer into his body as and when he needs to. If the force builds up to be too much to bear without tensing up or leaning, the receiver takes it all into the back leg and withdraws the front leg, to then re-root, so the opponent is over extended and pushing over a longer distance.
If however the receiver can take all the pressure in the correct way, remaining song, it starts to go back into the pusher...certainly when I have pushed my teacher he has stood there beningly smiling whilst I am pushing with every ounce of my force and body weight, to the point where I am soaked in sweat and shaking, and my force is just coming straight back into me. Is this an exercise you are familiar with, and does it tie into 'old ox strength' somehow?
OPEN-HAND PUSH HANDS
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The Wandering Brit
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Louis Swaim
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Gu Rou Chen
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In the Northern Wu Style tradition there is the term “tuī niú jìn” (push-ox-strength).
One person “feeds” the other with a full, brute-strength push that is motionless, steady, yet increases in intensity with the ability of the person on the receiving end to take more. There is no external movement of the body or limbs. This increases one’s ‘range of jin.’ The term in Beijing is “fènr” (degree, extent, range)
quote
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Instead of yielding to oncoming force and neutralizing it so as to minimize the amount of force landed on your structure, old ox training purposely allow the body structure to absorb the oncoming force as much as possible and channel it to the ground and back.
_____________________
In my use of terminology I would re-phrase what Chee Fatt wrote and say that this training, by developing this very long jìn and channeling the force off your body increases one’s range and is training in the ablility to neutralize (huà). It is this range that allows one to be able to huà. Without this range it is ‘pǎo’, or ‘running away.’
I think the key point is that although one is not moving and is receiving a heavy push, still the force is taken off the body, or neutralized.
Jeff
One person “feeds” the other with a full, brute-strength push that is motionless, steady, yet increases in intensity with the ability of the person on the receiving end to take more. There is no external movement of the body or limbs. This increases one’s ‘range of jin.’ The term in Beijing is “fènr” (degree, extent, range)
quote
________________________
Instead of yielding to oncoming force and neutralizing it so as to minimize the amount of force landed on your structure, old ox training purposely allow the body structure to absorb the oncoming force as much as possible and channel it to the ground and back.
_____________________
In my use of terminology I would re-phrase what Chee Fatt wrote and say that this training, by developing this very long jìn and channeling the force off your body increases one’s range and is training in the ablility to neutralize (huà). It is this range that allows one to be able to huà. Without this range it is ‘pǎo’, or ‘running away.’
I think the key point is that although one is not moving and is receiving a heavy push, still the force is taken off the body, or neutralized.
Jeff
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CheeFattTaichi
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by The Wandering Brit:
<B>Kal, Chee,
Thankyou very much for your posts, they help a lot.
Now, in an attempt to tie this back into the rest of the thread...Chee, we do an exercise for centering and rooting which involves the receiver assuming a full forward weighted bow stance and the pusher gradually pushing harder and harder into his arm (which is in ward off position).
The receiver takes as much force as possible in a relaxed manner, allowing his arms to come closer into his body as and when he needs to. If the force builds up to be too much to bear without tensing up or leaning, the receiver takes it all into the back leg and withdraws the front leg, to then re-root, so the opponent is over extended and pushing over a longer distance.
If however the receiver can take all the pressure in the correct way, remaining song, it starts to go back into the pusher...certainly when I have pushed my teacher he has stood there beningly smiling whilst I am pushing with every ounce of my force and body weight, to the point where I am soaked in sweat and shaking, and my force is just coming straight back into me. Is this an exercise you are familiar with, and does it tie into 'old ox strength' somehow?</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bouncing back Jin is different than `old ox', the exercise you mentioned is sometime called `Chieh Jin' or intercepting Jin. `Old ox' concentrate on developing Peng Jin which is a force used to protect and defend so that internal force will not be broken and penetrated by enermy. Chieh Jin however, like you mentioned, is used as an offensive force though not exactly offensive as in attacking. It requires taiji player to be very `song' to enable force to travel thru and from the body. It requires very good `tung jin' (understand energy)to enable taiji player to decipher the `head' `body' and `tail' of opponents force. It requires strong yi (mind intent) to direct chi and jin.
In Chieh Jin, you adhere to the coming force, absorb the `head' of the force which is the strongest and then bounce back the `body' of the force to your opponent and add-on to the `tail'. All these are done in a smooth manner and refine movements control by strong yi. Cheng Man ching said Chieh Jin is perhaps one of the higher skills of taiji. I did tried teaching some of my more advanced students this skill but then I stopped because their skills are not up to the level where they are ready yet. One is advised to try chieh jin only after one is very skilled in `fang song', with strong peng jin and rooting.
Hope this helps.
<B>Kal, Chee,
Thankyou very much for your posts, they help a lot.
Now, in an attempt to tie this back into the rest of the thread...Chee, we do an exercise for centering and rooting which involves the receiver assuming a full forward weighted bow stance and the pusher gradually pushing harder and harder into his arm (which is in ward off position).
The receiver takes as much force as possible in a relaxed manner, allowing his arms to come closer into his body as and when he needs to. If the force builds up to be too much to bear without tensing up or leaning, the receiver takes it all into the back leg and withdraws the front leg, to then re-root, so the opponent is over extended and pushing over a longer distance.
If however the receiver can take all the pressure in the correct way, remaining song, it starts to go back into the pusher...certainly when I have pushed my teacher he has stood there beningly smiling whilst I am pushing with every ounce of my force and body weight, to the point where I am soaked in sweat and shaking, and my force is just coming straight back into me. Is this an exercise you are familiar with, and does it tie into 'old ox strength' somehow?</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bouncing back Jin is different than `old ox', the exercise you mentioned is sometime called `Chieh Jin' or intercepting Jin. `Old ox' concentrate on developing Peng Jin which is a force used to protect and defend so that internal force will not be broken and penetrated by enermy. Chieh Jin however, like you mentioned, is used as an offensive force though not exactly offensive as in attacking. It requires taiji player to be very `song' to enable force to travel thru and from the body. It requires very good `tung jin' (understand energy)to enable taiji player to decipher the `head' `body' and `tail' of opponents force. It requires strong yi (mind intent) to direct chi and jin.
In Chieh Jin, you adhere to the coming force, absorb the `head' of the force which is the strongest and then bounce back the `body' of the force to your opponent and add-on to the `tail'. All these are done in a smooth manner and refine movements control by strong yi. Cheng Man ching said Chieh Jin is perhaps one of the higher skills of taiji. I did tried teaching some of my more advanced students this skill but then I stopped because their skills are not up to the level where they are ready yet. One is advised to try chieh jin only after one is very skilled in `fang song', with strong peng jin and rooting.
Hope this helps.
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Louis Swaim
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Greetings Jeff,
It sounds like lao niu jin (old ox strength) and tui niu jin (push ox strength) are essentially the same practice. I've known one master to demonstrate this with just one arm, with his hand in a fist. He absorbed and channeled a forceful push with ease.
By the way, the most common form of gongfu demonstrated on some martial arts discussion forums, I've observed, is chui niu jin (braggadocio). Sorry, but I couldn't resist. The image of blowing a cow has always struck me as hilarious. I guess it's not that much different than "shooting the bull."
Take care,
Louis
[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 04-22-2005).]
It sounds like lao niu jin (old ox strength) and tui niu jin (push ox strength) are essentially the same practice. I've known one master to demonstrate this with just one arm, with his hand in a fist. He absorbed and channeled a forceful push with ease.
By the way, the most common form of gongfu demonstrated on some martial arts discussion forums, I've observed, is chui niu jin (braggadocio). Sorry, but I couldn't resist. The image of blowing a cow has always struck me as hilarious. I guess it's not that much different than "shooting the bull."
Take care,
Louis
[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 04-22-2005).]
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Yuri Snisarenko
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Greetings CheeFattTaichi,
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by CheeFattTaichi:
<B> Chieh Jin however, like you mentioned, is used as an offensive force though not exactly offensive as in attacking. It requires taiji player to be very `song' to enable force to travel thru and from the body. It requires very good `tung jin' (understand energy)to enable taiji player to decipher the `head' `body' and `tail' of opponents force. It requires strong yi (mind intent) to direct chi and jin.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thank you for the interesting explanation of jie jin. I completely agree with you regarding the requirements for jie jin, that you mentioned. Besides them, I believed, there should be a good understanding of WU BU (The Five "Steps"), however I could be wrong since my knowledge of the subject is limited.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by CheeFattTaichi:
<B> Chieh Jin however, like you mentioned, is used as an offensive force though not exactly offensive as in attacking. It requires taiji player to be very `song' to enable force to travel thru and from the body. It requires very good `tung jin' (understand energy)to enable taiji player to decipher the `head' `body' and `tail' of opponents force. It requires strong yi (mind intent) to direct chi and jin.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thank you for the interesting explanation of jie jin. I completely agree with you regarding the requirements for jie jin, that you mentioned. Besides them, I believed, there should be a good understanding of WU BU (The Five "Steps"), however I could be wrong since my knowledge of the subject is limited.