Yang Family Tai Chi Discussion Board

Greetings,

RVC, You wrote,
<<the pasive side of listening jing is just that...one side. Although is not exatly a fa (emmiting) jing, it does have an active side to! Afet all if we are only listening and 100% passive, how could we react and counter right?>> RVC

That is an excellent point...The percentage involved...I see what you mean.


Thank you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.

Rvc_ve,
Well....
Listening jing is what I use to "listen" to my opponent. That's all I've ever done with it, I've certainly never "responded" with listening jing. Responded because of it, but never with it.
An entire plethora of other jings, those are what I use to respond to what the listening jing tells me, but my listening jing just listens.
To correlate, you use your ears to listen to physical sounds, that's all they are for and I know of no way to take them out of their passive listening mode. If you hear a sound that needs a response, lets say you hear a tiger growl and it sounds very close to you and you don't happen to be standing in your city zoo right next to the tiger cage, do you use your ears to respond to that, or do you use something else, such as turning your eyes and body towards where you perceive that sound to be coming from?
You're not going to ignore that growl that your ears heard, that would be foolish, you're going to respond but you don't use your ears to make that response, you use other parts of your body.
So you're not going to "respond" with your ears, your "response" is to turn your head in such a way that your eyes will track the source of the sound, in our case the growling tiger, most likely you will turn to face the tiger, then if there actually IS a tiger you will most likely turn and run like crazy, which would be, of course, simply the worst response you could make...
But I digress.
So just as in using your ears continuously through our growling tiger scenario to alert you to the possible presence of a tiger close to you and help you locate it and track it, the actual "response" you will make is not with your listening jing, but with other jings using your listening jing tightly integrated into the mix to keep you informed in it's own way as to whether your response is appropriate or not.
As in, turning and running like crazy from our not so friendly feline. That's a BAD decision, because I don't know about you but I can't outrun your average tiger. So while I'm responding by running like a tiger was chasing me, I will still be using my ears to listen to what the tiger is doing, and what I'll probably be hearing is the sound of tiger paws rushing up on me very quickly from behind. I will then, hopefully, use the information my ears are reporting to me to change my mind and do something else, like maybe pulling that gun that I forgot I had out and shooting the tiger with it.
Even if I do suddenly remember my gun and use it, while that would have been because of the information that my ears provided in letting me know that my first inclination was not the wisest move, my "response" was still not with my ears, but with my body and my gun.
I could go on forever, but I hope you see my point.
While listening jing is integral to the process of "response" it is not what you actually use to "respond".
Or convince me I'm wrong.
This is how I was told, this is how I understand the relationship.
Part of it, but seperate and distinct.
If I'm wrong, tell me why.

Not wrong at all! It makes so much sense! you are absoultely right wushuer...hats off!

Nei Hao,

This video from a chen-style site shows candle training.

http://www.taichichen/videos/candle.zip
(1Mb)

Lots of videos on this website, but I had to go there from the home page and then choose the "free videos" options to view them, as the link did not work for me.
Watching the videos reminds me that there really aren't too many differences in TCC, mostly similar ways of doing very much the same thing.

Bob

Hi there,
I'm pretty new to tai chi (about a year into it) and I've only just found this board.

Anyway I read this thread and found it of great interest, while the release of fa jing is not something I've actually been taught/practiced yet I've been told & read quite a lot about it. After reading this thread I thought I've have a few goes at punching at a candle just out of interest to see how hard it was and how much concentration was needed.

To my surprise I actually found extinguishing the flame alot easier that I imagined with a success rate of about 1 out of 3 with both fist and palm. Now I'm not sure whether or not this means I was actually doing fa jing or not (I certainly wouldn't be surprised if I wasn't since I'd never tried before).

Anyway after the initial excitement of finding a new way to put out candles I started to try and understand what I was doing and if it was correct and I came across a problem/question:

My technique involved the power coming up through my back leg through the waist up the back and out through the arm, now the arm was soft and was propelled out by the movement through the body, if my fist had come into contact with something I would've probably been quite happy with it but as it didn't my arm shot out to it's full extent in a kind of whip like motion and when it kind of "snapped" at the end there was a nasty strain on my elbow. After a few trys it left a lingering pain inside the elbow joint (so I stopped). So my question is should I some how be restricting my arm from extending this far and how would I do that without engage a muscular for in the arm to "pull back"?

I know in the form the punch never extends to this full extent but the momentem of the fist seems to pull it out and to stop it would appear to use quite a lot of force.

I would really appreciate any suggestions people could give, I know this may not really be the sort of thing I should be doing after such a short period of time but I can't help but think that there may be something fundemental I'm missing with what I am doing if when I try to turn it into an application it's causing this discomfort. I will talk to my teacher about it tomorrow too.

Many thanks,
Tom

[This message has been edited by TomX (edited 10-26-2006).]

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My technique involved the power coming up through my back leg through the waist up the back and out through the arm, now the arm was soft and was propelled out by the movement through the body, if my fist had come into contact with something I would've probably been quite happy with it but as it didn't my arm shot out to it's full extent in a kind of whip like motion and when it kind of "snapped" at the end there was a nasty strain on my elbow. After a few trys it left a lingering pain inside the elbow joint (so I stopped). So my question is should I some how be restricting my arm from extending this far and how would I do that without engage a muscular for in the arm to "pull back"?

I know in the form the punch never extends to this full extent but the momentem of the fist seems to pull it out and to stop it would appear to use quite a lot of force.
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Hi Tom,

It sounds like you're basically on the right track--staying relaxed, bringing the energy up through the legs, guiding with the waist, maintaining softness in the arms until the very last moment. You're also correct in that you don't want to engage musclular force to "retract" or "counter" your own extension.

The trick is to develop more relaxation and control of the movement with the mind. Then you can guide the full momentum towards releasing entirely toward your target with no "wasted" momentum getting caught in your joints or throwing them out of alignment and making them "snap."

Think of your arm as a fire hose. If the energy is sent forth without adequate control, the hose will thrash back and forth wildly. You had enough control to aim at the flame, which is great, but perhaps not quite enough to keep the elbow joint from snapping into hyperextension and injury.

As you develop more relaxation through practice, you'll be able to guide your arm to the correct position (with a not-fully-extended shape just like in the form) by using your mind. Later on, you can conceive of the motion and suddenly your hand is there, as the gap between deciding to move and arriving gets shorter and shorter.

The classics say something like "Store energy like a bow, release like an arrow." If you ever had an archery class in school, you may remember that a common error is to snap the string against one's forearm on account of not having the posture quite right. It's a little similar here. Without a controlled posture throughout the punch, some of the force can get directed back against you, with the possibility of injuring any of the joints. The control I'm speaking of comes from relaxation and guiding with intent, not from any kind of resistant or oppositional muscular force. With increased relaxation, the outer form becomes imbued with a feeling of resiliancy, a kind of springy tensegrity that prevents overextension.

I would suggest talking with your teacher about whether and when this kind of practice might be appropriate.

Good luck with your tai chi practice,
Kal

Thank you very much for your explanation, everything makes sense now. The fire hose analogy is very helpful, I have heard that many times before but wasn't really applying it when I was trying the candle practice.

I have actually spoken to my teacher as well, he went over some detail with me and while this isn't something we are learning at the moment he didn't discourage the practice of it so I think I'll probably have a few more goes (I found it great fun ).

Thanks again,
Tom

Am not against any of them personaly; my teacher has said that for each movement of the form their are multiple applications.

I believe they are all useful and can be applied according to the intention of a duifung