Yang Family Tai Chi Discussion Board

Are these the same Midichlorians that Anakin had so much of?
Because that would be really cool!
I want a bright blue light saber!
And those Jedi robes, they're just AWESOME!
And mind control! That's the BOMB! (waves hands with a mysterious looking gesture) "These are not the droid's you're looking for..."

Huh?
What's that...?
"Mitochondria"?
Oh.
Well...
That's different.

Never mind.

1. The number of mitochondria in a cell is proportional to the energy demand of the cell. Tissues with higher energy requirement like red muscle and liver have a higher number of mitochondria. It is not clear which cells has the highest number of mitochondria.

Mitochondria vary in number and location according to cell type. A single mitochondrion is often found in unicellular organisms. Conversely, numerous mitochondria are found in human liver cells, with about 1000–2000 mitochondria per cell, making up 1/5 of the cell volume.

2. Function of Mitochondria. Just as a car runs on gasoline, your cells run on ATP. What cells have the most mitochondria? It's your heart muscle cells – with about 5,000mitochondria per cell – that contain far more mitochondria than any other organ in body! May 15, 2013

3. Muscle cell will have more mitochondria as some muscles are cardic in nature and use lot of energy. The muscle cell would because it is much more active than a bone cell.

It's commonly believed that it's muscle cells that have the largest amount of mitochondria, and for good reason. Muscle cells are continually used to move the body, so they have the most mitochondria because of the large energy requirement. Jun 28, 2015

4. Cells that require the most energy generating mitochondria. The cells of the brain, the skeletal muscle and heart muscle, and the eye contain the highest number of mitochondria (as many as 10,000 per cell) while the skin cells, which do not require much energy, contain only a few hundred of them. Sep 14, 2012

5. The ATP is produced in the mitochondria using energy stored in food. ... Some cells have more mitochondria than others. Your fat cells have many mitochondria because they store a lot of energy. Muscle cells have many mitochondria, which allows them to respond quickly to the need for doing work.

6. Respiration, the chemical reaction that releases energy from glucose, happens in mitochondria. ... Tissues and organs that need a lot of energy have large numbers of mitochondria in their cells. For example, liver cells and muscle cells contain a lot of mitochondria.


Why do muscle cells have more mitochondria than other kinds of ...
https://socratic.org/.../why-do-muscle- ... ther-kinds...

Dec 13, 2015 - Because they need a continuous supply of ATP in big amount. If the number of mitochondria is small them the muscles will not function and the ...

Why do muscle cells need a lot of mitochondria? - Tutorhub
https://tutorhub.com/question/why-do-mu ... tochondria

Without the mitochondria the muscle wouldn't be able to contract. ... require a lot of energy thus they contain more mitochondria to produce a high level of ATP.

Make More Mitochondria: Mitochondrial Biogenesis Part 1
https://www.mangomannutrition.com/mitoc ... sis-part1/

Whereas a single cell contains one nucleus, muscle cells often contain hundreds or ... In short – more mitochondria mean more ATP production at peak exercise ...

So, since TJQ emphasizes relaxation ("don’t use force", etc.), one would expect less energy demands of the skeletal muscle cells (because of less skeletal muscle usage), and therefore one would expect fewer mitochondria (along with less ATP) in the skeletal muscles of TJQ practitioners than in comparable active and healthy non-practitioners? Is that what you are trying to point out?

DPasek wrote: ↑Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:56 pm So, since TJQ emphasizes relaxation ("don’t use force", etc.), one would expect less energy demands of the skeletal muscle cells (because of less skeletal muscle usage), and therefore one would expect fewer mitochondria (along with less ATP) in the skeletal muscles of TJQ practitioners than in comparable active and healthy non-practitioners? Is that what you are trying to point out?

Hi, DPasek

I think there is a language barrier here. 鬆, song is simply means "don't use excessive force." It doesn't mean "don't use force at all." If one doesn't use force at all, then, how is one going to lift up the arms or legs. A Tai Chi practitioner is constantly lifting the arms and legs in the practice. Those muscles require more energy demand. Thus, more mitochondria will be produced in the muscles. As opposed to healthy non-practitioners, their muscles are not as active which will have less mitochondria than the practitioners.

One has to be experienced from empirical experience to realize the different in energy level which acquired from Tai Chi practice. The end result from Tai Chi practice is to develop 勁, jin. Jin is a very high level of muscle energy. To issue jin, 發勁, fajin[/b] require muscle contraction. The 鬆, song condition is very important to the beginning level of practice. However, one wants to relax at all times to be vigilant and to handle any unexpected situation. During strike in a combat, one will not want to be relaxed as in practice.

Your statements imply that individuals that move their limbs around more than TJQ practitioners do (like dancers, laborers, athletes, etc.) will have more mitochondria than TJQ practitioners, and therefore would have more muscle energy. Would TJQ practitioners who practice expressing force (like expressing fajin throughout their forms practice) have more mitochondria than those practitioners who practice only in a relaxed manner? Would Chen stylists develop more mitochondria than Yang stylists during their normal solo forms practice, and therefore Chen stylists have more available muscle energy than Yang stylists?

DPasek wrote: ↑Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:33 pm 1. Your statements imply that individuals that move their limbs around more than TJQ practitioners do (like dancers, laborers, athletes, etc.) will have more mitochondria than TJQ practitioners, and therefore would have more muscle energy.

2. Would TJQ practitioners who practice expressing force (like expressing fajin throughout their forms practice) have more mitochondria than those practitioners who practice only in a relaxed manner?

3. Would Chen stylists develop more mitochondria than Yang stylists during their normal solo forms practice, and therefore Chen stylists have more available muscle energy than Yang stylists?

1. There is alot more to it than just move the limbs around in TJQ. TJQ cannot be comprehended just by saying few words. Besides, TJQ does not consume as much as oxygen as dancers, laborers, or athletes do.

TJQ involves slow movement and abdominal breathing. It requires the practitioner to stand on one leg, for few seconds, from one move to the other. It demands more energy to support the leg muscles. Hence, more mitochondria will be produced in the leg muscles. There is also a high demand of oxygen for the mitochondria to generate the energy. That is where the abdominal breathing comes in to provide the excessive amount of oxygen. BTW The heart rate does not speed up as the other exercises do. So, the heart does not have to be worked as hard as other people.

2. It is the other way around. Without practicing the most fundamental slow basic movements in any form for a long period in a relaxed manner, then the expressing force(fajin) cannot be performed. Practicing any slow form will increase the mitochondria in the body muscles. The more mitochondria in the body will have more energy. These more energy had been developed in the muscles now is called "勁, Jin" by TJQ practitioners. With the jin in the body, it could be said that one has a Taiji body. Now, one can do the practice of fajin(expressing force.)

3. Any style of TJQ will produce more mitochondria in the body. Regardless, one practice the Chen or Yang style. It is because our bodies function the same way. It is only a matter of time and how often does each individual perform the slow TJQ practice.

Greetings,
Btw with all this talk about "producing more mitichondria", has anyone actually measured this? There seems to be a belief being purported to be factual scientific truth, when there is really no evidence of this. Speculation is well and good, but implying it to be proven and factual is being irresponsible. Even if there were scientific studies being done that indicate a possible correlation, were they done with appropriate objectivity and compared with other similar type activities and exercise regimes?
Take care,
Frank

Frank,

James (CD) is correct that there are tissues with high energy demands, like cardiac muscles (with regular and powerful contractions), that contain more mitochondria than tissues with less energy demands. But NO, there is no evidence that the slow and relaxed movements performed in solo TJQ forms practice would increase the number of mitochondria in the skeletal muscles of a TJQ practitioner. That is just speculative wishful thinking on his part – because of his “empirical experience” acquired from Tai Chi practice (i.e., he FEELS like he has more energy, and since ATP, which is a primary fuel for cellular activity, is synthesized in the mitochondria, he THINKS that TJQ MUST produce more mitochondria in the skeletal muscles of TJQ practitioners, because it is POSSIBLE for tissues to have more mitochondria...).

James does not even seem to realize that TJQ has fewer energy demands than for dancers, laborers, athletes, etc., but SOMEHOW [contrary to scientific expectations] TJQ would give practitioners more mitochondria (and therefore more ATP synthesis and therefore more energy reserves) in their skeletal muscles. [Since he cannot even see the contradictions in the information that he himself posts, I have lost hope that he will be capable of understanding. He seems to have gone too deeply into the mental web that he has woven for himself to be able to see clearly.]

Just focus on feeling the QI, fellow practitioners, and perhaps you can convince yourselves “empirically” that you have more energy because you have somehow gotten more mitochondria (even without having to work as hard as dancers, laborers or athletes), and produce more ATP (because you FEEL like you have more energy), but somehow require less oxygen because your heart can stay beating at a slower rate and therefore does not pump as much oxygen to the cells through the bloodstream... Just FEEL THE QI and you may be convinced that James is on to something. FEEL THE FORCE! (At this point, James’ ideas do seem to me more like Star Wars fiction.)

There is some evidence that ATP-synthase (located within the mitochondria, and which produces the ATP) may be slightly but significantly up-regulated (i.e., increased activity) by certain activities (the relaxation response was what the researchers specifically looked at). While this would not indicate more mitochondria, it would indicate that there may be more available ATP under those conditions. But James dismissed that study for some reason (it was not specific to TJQ?). But there is also contradictory evidence that treatments thought to increase ATP synthesis (e.g., as supplements for athletes) do not increase strength or endurance. So even with more available ATP, it does not seem to help athletic performance (but perhaps TJQ SOMEHOW is different?).

The evidence so far seems to contradict what James is hoping for (believes?). But it is possible that something could increase the available energy reserves in TJQ practitioners (i.e., his ideas have not been DISPROVEN, as far as I am aware). It is POSSIBLE but NOT PROBABLE.

Now, there are practices in TJQ that I do support, and that I do think would have significant benefits for practitioners:
1. Partner practice, where practitioners are practicing issuing and receiving against/from resistance by their partner/opponent.
2. “Moving through molasses” solo forms practice. See my article at the following link:
http://slantedflying.com/taijiquan-movi ... -molasses/
3. Super slow solo forms practice – i.e. moving at the nearly imperceptible speed analogous to the minute hand of a clock rather than the normal speed analogous to the second hand of the clock (the second hand can be perceived to be moving continuously whereas the minute hand is still moving continuously but appears to be stationary, it is imperceptible unless one looks away briefly and thereafter notices a change in position when looking back. Now that will really work your muscles and your balance, and you will be on one leg for minutes at a time rather than just seconds!

But TJQ is not commonly trained this way by modern practitioners, so I doubt that these practices are what James was referring to when mentioning TJQ practice, and especially not when mentioning slow and relaxed practice of solo forms. I am skeptical that even these more energy demanding ways of practicing TJQ would increase the number of mitochondria in the skeletal muscles of practitioners.

Edit: I should also note that mitochondria divide independently of the cell in which they reside, so it is possible for mitochondrial division to be triggered (e.g. by high energy demands?) to produce more mitochondria in the cells without being coupled to cell division (i.e., more mitochondria within individual cells, without requiring more cells).

DPasek wrote: ↑Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:33 pm James (CD) is correct that there are tissues with high energy demands, like cardiac muscles (with regular and powerful contractions), that contain more mitochondria than tissues with less energy demands. But NO, there is no evidence that the slow and relaxed movements performed in solo TJQ forms practice would increase the number of mitochondria in the skeletal muscles of a TJQ practitioner. That is just speculative wishful thinking on his part – because of his “empirical experience” acquired from Tai Chi practice (i.e., he FEELS like he has more energy, and since ATP, which is a primary fuel for cellular activity, is synthesized in the mitochondria, he THINKS that TJQ MUST produce more mitochondria in the skeletal muscles of TJQ practitioners, because it is POSSIBLE for tissues to have more mitochondria...).

Edit: I should also note that mitochondria divide independently of the cell in which they reside, so it is possible for mitochondrial division to be triggered (e.g. by high energy demands?) to produce more mitochondria in the cells without being coupled to cell division (i.e., more mitochondria within individual cells, without requiring more cells).

First of all, I would like to thank you for your post before I did to answer Frank's question. I was waiting for your response. Also, thank you for doing your homework.

The former paragraph is not just speculating wishful thinking on my part. It seems to me that there was one thing you had missed. What I meant by "more energy" is that I am much stronger than before my Tai Chi practice. "Since ATP, which is a primary fuel for cellular activity, is synthesized in the mitochondria." It is true. However, it will not generate more energy than before until the number of mitochondria have been increased in the skeletal muscles. I do believe that from the practice was what took place as described in the latter paragraph as in your edition.

By the comparison before and after the practice, I am able to handle heavier task than before. Other wise, I wouldn't have had accomplished what I couldn't have done before. Thus your argument is debatable.

PS I will respond to each of your comments separately.

Frank,

There is something in the human psyche that favors things like superheroes, magic, witches and wizards, superstitions, fairies, deities, immortality, and various other super humans and supernormal human capabilities (e.g., the Force in “Star Wars”). Some practitioners of TJQ follow these tendencies in believing that TJQ practice somehow transforms a normal person into something extraordinary. This can lead one to think about a special “Tai Chi body” that differs from what non-practitioners have. I am not trying to single anyone out here as probably more people profess some religious belief than those that don’t, for example. A willingness to be receptive to superhuman possibilities is very common. Superhero movies, comics and cartoons do very well in our society.

I doubt that humans can currently resolve the divide between religious beliefs and secularism, and I think that the tendencies that underlie these different worldviews comes to play in many facets of our lives, including one’s understanding of TJQ.

Being a scientist, I require a higher level of evidence. I tend to think differently than those who favor the idea of being special or superhuman, and I tend to discount superhuman capabilities, especially if they are not supported by rigorous scientific studies. I think that TJQ trains a person’s ordinary abilities in different ways than most people use those same abilities. I agree with Zhang Yun’s approach as expressed in the article posted here:
http://www.ycgf.org/Articles/Neijia-Waijia/arti_NW.htm

Specifically referring to the possibility that a TJQ practitioner’s body would have more mitochondria than do non-practitioners, I doubt it - unless it has been shown to be increased significantly in other human activities, especially those that have greater energy demands than typical modern humans (including TJQ practitioners who only practice slow and relaxed solo forms), e.g., dancers, laborers, athletes, etc. As far as I am aware, this has not been shown.

However, if one believes that TJQ creates a special “Tai Chi body” that makes their body significantly different than other people, then that person would be more inclined to accept the idea of more mitochondria being somehow developed in a TJQ practitioner’s body, which could then potentially explain an extraordinary increase in available energy. If you believe in a special “Tai Chi body,” then studies on ordinary humans would not persuade you that those studies would apply to the special “Tai Chi body.” No proof is possible unless specifically performed on TJQ masters with the special “Tai Chi body.” No disproof is possible, by definition, against “empirical experience.”

I suspect that differing worldviews contribute to the apparent inability for me and James (CD) to see eye-to-eye. Which side of the mitochondria discussion you favor would also likely be influenced by your worldview.

Of course, nobody could claim that James does not feel that he has greater energy or greater strength – of course he feels that! I do not know what would convince him that his body is ordinary. But absent a method to prove or disprove his claims to having more mitochondria, there is no science involved. Science requires hypotheses that can be proven or disproved; “empirical experience” is the opposite of what would be needed for science.

Dpasek wrote:James does not even seem to realize that TJQ has fewer energy demands than for dancers, laborers, athletes, etc., but SOMEHOW [contrary to scientific expectations] TJQ would give practitioners more mitochondria (and therefore more ATP synthesis and therefore more energy reserves) in their skeletal muscles. [Since he cannot even see the contradictions in the information that he himself posts, I have lost hope that he will be capable of understanding. He seems to have gone too deeply into the mental web that he has woven for himself to be able to see clearly.]

Firstly, I do not wish to include any personal comments in a scientific discussion. The reason is because they might be fired back at me. In this case, I wish I can say the same to you for the first and last time.

Let's get back on course. Dancers, laborers, and athletes do not demand more energy than TJQ. They only consume whatever the body can generate until all the glucose or oxygen are exhausted(whichever comes first.) Then, the body become fatigue due to the lactic acid build up in the muscles due to hypoxia. BTW Body energy cannot be reserved, rather it was generated by the mitochondria. If the ATP energy was not used, it will be collapsed in few seconds.

TJQ practitioners do not have a problem with hypoxia; but there is a possibility that the source of energy like glucose may be exhausted.

DPasek" wrote:Just focus on feeling the QI, fellow practitioners, and perhaps you can convince yourselves “empirically” that you have more energy because you have somehow gotten more mitochondria (even without having to work as hard as dancers, laborers or athletes), and produce more ATP (because you FEEL like you have more energy), but somehow require less oxygen because your heart can stay beating at a slower rate and therefore does not pump as much oxygen to the cells through the bloodstream... Just FEEL THE QI and you may be convinced that James is on to something. FEEL THE FORCE! (At this point, James’ ideas do seem to me more like Star Wars fiction.)

The term "Qi" is a non scientific term. It was translated as "energy." People just took it for granted. I could not accept this mysterious term to satisfy my personal explanation. Since it was claimed as "energy." Hence, that was the reason why I look into ATP energy and how was generated. My discovery had led me to the direction toward glucose and oxygen which generates ATP. Furthermore, it leads me to what utilize the glucose and oxygen to generate the energy which is mitochondria. Surprisingly, I had discovered what triggered the mitochondria to generate the ATP. It was the muscle contraction which activate the mitochondria to do so.

At first, I thought by breathing more oxygen is to generate more ATP. However, recently, I had read more about muscle contraction which led me to believe by more energy demand will produce more mitochondria in the skeletal muscles. Thus more mitochondria will generate more ATP energy.

DPasek" wrote:.....but somehow require less oxygen because your heart can stay beating at a slower rate and therefore does not pump as much oxygen to the cells through the bloodstream...

At first again, I thought that was the case too. Later, I had fund out that was not the case. The amount of oxygen does not depend on the heart rate. It depends on how efficient the heart is in pumping the blood into the blood vessels at any rate.

https://www.barnesjewish.org/Medical-Se ... n-Fraction

ChiDragon wrote: ↑Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:47 pmThe amount of oxygen does not depend on the heart rate. It depends on how efficient the heart is in pumping the blood into the blood vessels at any rate.

https://www.barnesjewish.org/Medical-Se ... n-Fraction

Part of the reason that the information that you present is not convincing to me, is that you frequently compare TJQ practice against unhealthy conditions, i.e., those with hypoxia, those with impaired (lower) heart ejection fractions...

If you are looking for differences between unhealthy individuals compared with healthy ones, then fine, but if you are looking for what differentiates TJQ practice from other health practices, then you would have to compare TJQ with comparatively healthy individuals of similar ages, sexes, weights (BMI), etc. Comparing healthy TJQ practitioners with unhealthy non-practitioners is like comparing apples to oranges. Science, in order to be meaningful, needs appropriate and rigorous control populations. One may attempt to compare similar individuals (similar health, etc.) who engage in activities for an equal amount of time that other individuals practices TJQ, for example. Comparing unhealthy individuals with healthy TJQ practitioners only gives information about healthy vs. unhealthy individuals, and not anything specific about TJQ (although TJQ is ONE way that people can improve their health levels).

Obtaining human muscle tissues for study of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) copy number (a measurement of the number of mitochondrial DNA molecules, when compared with the DNA from the nucleus, would give an estimate of the functional amount of mitochondria per cell), appears to be limited primarily to tissues obtained during operations or autopsies, and therefore may not precisely reflect typical healthy individuals (i.e. they would have limitations to their suitability as controls, depending on what was being studied).

Though somewhat unclear from one study to others, there ARE studies that indicate that the mtDNA copy number does NOT change significantly with age (note that the researchers stated that, for the tissues examined in the following study, “No individual had an overt mitochondrial disorder.” Note also that the sample size is quite small at only 29 extracts.):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC156738/

We applied these techniques to measure the mtDNA copy number in 29 DNA extracts from human skeletal muscle over the age range 1 h to 95 years (Fig. (Fig.3).3). The average number of mitochondrial genomes per diploid nuclear genome in these tissues was 3650 ± 620. Linear regression of copy number against age failed to show any significant age-associated change (P = 0.56). We noted that those tissue samples from patients undergoing hip operations tended to have lower mtDNA copy numbers (all but one value fell below the regression line) than those from individuals, mainly trauma subjects, from whom skeletal muscle was taken at autopsy. Whether this reflects a tendency for muscle atrophy (and hence reduced mtDNA copy number) in patients with hip pathology remains to be established.

This study only looked at age, not health or fitness level, and certainly not at TJQ. Perhaps more interesting for us would be a comparison of mtDNA copy numbers for healthy vs. unhealthy individuals (I doubt that there are any studies specifically comparing TJQ practitioners to appropriate control populations), or healthy but relatively inactive individuals to healthy and active athletes, for example. It would be interesting to compare the mtDNA copy number from a skeletal muscle tissue sample from James (CD) to what has been found for other individuals (e.g., the above cited research).

DPasek" wrote:
.....but somehow require less oxygen because your heart can stay beating at a slower rate and therefore does not pump as much oxygen to the cells through the bloodstream...

If the heartbeat is very fast, there is less time for the heart chamber to fill with blood between beats. Therefore, not enough blood is pumped to the brain and the rest of the body with each contraction. ... It is often seen in people with conditions that lower the amount of oxygen in the blood.May 16, 2018

This apply to a healthy person, do we have a contradiction on the heart beating rate vs the amount of oxygen......???


Multifocal atrial tachycardia: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia
https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/000186.htm