Yang Family Tai Chi Discussion Board

From a scientific standpoint, I could describe “energy” as generally referring to kinetic, elastic, and potential energy. You must learn to manage these in yourself and in your opponent.

Hi, Audi
IMHO In Taiji, we should be talking about the biochemical energy in the human body rather than the dynamic energies as in mechanics.

From a scientific standpoint, these energies( kinetic, elastic, and potential) are different from the biochemical energy(ATP). BTW What does "manage" mean in regard to those energies? How do you manage them? You may not have to answer that if you don't want to.

IMHO In Taiji, we should be talking about the biochemical energy in the human body rather than the dynamic energies as in mechanics.

The energy I find most important is biomechanical and not biochemical.

In the approach to Tai Chi that I have been taught, biochemical energy is something assumed and to be largely ignored.

I just came back from a fantastic two-and-a-half-day seminar with Master Yang Jun. He talked extensively about Tai Chi theory in a fairly comprehensive way. There was no discussion of chemistry that I can recall, but there was a side class by one of the Academy Instructors on biomechanics.

Master Yang talked broadly about Chinese philosophy, Tai Chi theory, body shape, practice methods, energy, and breathing. Although he did not speak from a modern scientific viewpoint, much of what he described I could understand in terms of biomechanics.

Even the discussion of breathing included a biomechanical component. He equated “Sink Qi to the Dantian” to maintaining abdominal breathing and discussed five things that can affect the breathing: mind (or mental state/emotions), body shape, body angle, weight with respect to the bubbling well, and energy (basically muscular exertion). Only this last element might contain an element of chemistry, but I think it would be unnecessary and confusing to go so far.

From a scientific standpoint, these energies( kinetic, elastic, and potential) are different from the biochemical energy(ATP). BTW What does "manage" mean in regard to those energies? How do you manage them? You may not have to answer that if you don't want to.

The principles of Tai Chi are expressed in terms of traditional Chinese philosophy. For some practitioners, this means that the philosophy is dealing with things beyond modern science. For others, it means that the philosophy is a jumble of superstition and unsupported ideas about things that would be better expressed in terms of modern science. To me, Tai Chi philosophy deals with the same physical reality as modern science, but in a framework that does not translate easily into the terms used in modern science.

Talking about kinetic, elastic, and potential energy is my best attempt at coming close to such concepts as jin, ward off energy, storing, releasing, movement, and stillness etc., used in traditional Tai Chi.

How do we manage these energies? We do so through our muscles, but as mediated by the force of gravity and the status of our tendons, ligaments, and fascia. Most external martial arts focus on manipulating the muscles, but we focus more on the status of the soft tissue, such as the tendons, ligaments, and fascia. They all form one system, but it matters at the human level what you are focused on, just as in driving a car, it matters whether you are focusing on the behavior of the car or on the position and movement of the steering wheel and pedals.

I do not understand our Tai Chi to be focused on gaining energy so much as on managing and nurturing the energy we have properly. We do not focus on having more oxygen, but rather maintaining natural abdominal breathing.

Is body movement dependent on oxygen or ATP? Of course, but I pay no particular attention to that, just as in driving I am not paying much attention to gasoline consumption or the efficiency of combustion in determining how to maneuver my car on the highway. More gas or even more powerful gas would not make me a better driver.


Take care,
Audi

Is body movement dependent on oxygen or ATP? Of course, but I pay no particular attention to that, just as in driving I am not paying much attention to gasoline consumption or the efficiency of combustion in determining how to maneuver my car on the highway. More gas or even more powerful gas would not make me a better driver.

You just need to go one step beyond biomechanical toward modern biochemical principles to have a complete understanding of Tai Chi. Right now, you know it works but not how it works. But it's ok, no one really need to know how the body works as long it works. However, it won't hurt to increase one's wisdom by knowing a little more than one should.


Take care
CD

Audi wrote: ↑Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:01 am
I just came back from a fantastic two-and-a-half-day seminar with Master Yang Jun. He talked extensively about Tai Chi theory in a fairly comprehensive way. There was no discussion of chemistry that I can recall, but there was a side class by one of the Academy Instructors on biomechanics.

Master Yang talked broadly about Chinese philosophy, Tai Chi theory, body shape, practice methods, energy, and breathing. Although he did not speak from a modern scientific viewpoint, much of what he described I could understand in terms of biomechanics.

Even the discussion of breathing included a biomechanical component. He equated “Sink Qi to the Dantian” to maintaining abdominal breathing and discussed five things that can affect the breathing: mind (or mental state/emotions), body shape, body angle, weight with respect to the bubbling well, and energy (basically muscular exertion). Only this last element might contain an element of chemistry, but I think it would be unnecessary and confusing to go so far.

...
Take care,
Audi

Hi, I was going to put a new post in this forum, but I read this post, and I have the same impression.
The reason I quote Audi´s post is because I just came back from a 3 day seminar with YJ. The same, and btw, 2 years ago, I also have participated in a 2 day seminar, exactly the same theory, methods, exercises. the only difference is that since a while he is putting the terms and questions & answers in a pattern, I mean, the idea is that all students learn the same answers to the common questions, to get a standard understanding. that´s ok.
but about the main subject - the effectiveness of taichi as a martial art, I guess the answer is: the art maybe is, but who teaches it like so?
since the most of the students are not looking for a martial art when they engage in taiji classes, there´s no need for the chuan side.
I did ask master YJ about kicking techniques, and in the end of the answer, telling about practice kick with a live target = real opponent, he asked: "who wanna do that?"
So, my guess is that in Yang style, in the yftcca, if there´s someone developing it as a martial art, is because this person was a martial artist from other style before he learned taiji and hold the martial side. nowadays people just practise form, leg exercises, waist exercises, tuishou, and some applications in a very cooperative way.
Even a light contact play, to test some skills and check for it effectiveness are seldom seen, so, they are the exception, not the rule.
it´s my impression, based on the seminars, classes from different schools and branches, the main concern is to do the form well, and if someone wants to go further, there´s more 2 coreographies with saber and sword, and tuishou play. there are maybe 1-10% of players who do tuishou, and from these 10%, 5% start to push harder in a non cooperative way to really test...

the main purpose is to pursue Shun - be comfortable with practice, be healthier... no one is looking for fighting, so this is being put aside for a long time.
perhaps in chen style you may find another perspective.

just to complement, I suppose more than 90% of tjq is effective like this, in fight:
https://www.facebook.com/fei123456/vide ... 52495858/

It is not a matter of boxing against Tai Chi; rather, it is a boxer against a Tai Chi body.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRGrzPU0zDY

FYI
The Tai Chi practitioner had 10 fights, 8 wins and 2 KO

The rules for the fight in the ring are:
1. Use the fist, leg and knee only
2. The fight must stop when the opponent is on the floor
3. One must not strike the back of the head of the other
4. The fight is 3 rounds, each round is 3 minutes.

The things should be observed are the stance, the footing, balance, technique and the strength of the strikes or kicks.

sorry, he is not using taijiquan. he may say he uses taiji as philosophy, or mind preparation, but not as fighting. tjq has a counter-attack strategy, which is not the case in the videos...
how to make a bridge? as we say in southern style - how to get in contact with opponent, how to create/close space, how to own the opponent´s center... that´s what someone (not only this, but it´s a beginning point) must look for in the training method as well in fighting.

the techniques may be effective, but not the art. explain that: if one looks to the isolated techniques, eg, a takedown, a throw, a chin na , all of them work very well with a training partner, HOWEVER, to play isolated applications of moves, or specific joint locks is just primary stages of the "game".
if the question is: effectiveness of techniques, we may end discussion here, but, if the subject is effectiveness in fighting, than one must go further and see how are the methods of engaging with opponent. I am convinced that jabbing and kicking are not the ways tjq uses to engage.
then comes the question: what are the methods of tjq to engage and apply hua, na & fa jin? every style/system has its methods.... if a tjq guy uses sanda / kuoshu for that, the most I can say is: well he tries to apply some tjq, nice trial.
of course in competitive ring one uses what works the best to win, but if tjq is not used with its main methods, I wouldn´t say it´s tjq. think about someone who ever learned only tjq, without mixing with other fighting arts.

here there are some good explanations about fighting with tjq: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BsE8EvxgsI

Christiano wrote: ↑Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:39 pm sorry, he is not using taijiquan. he may say he uses taiji as philosophy, or mind preparation, but not as fighting. tjq has a counter-attack strategy, which is not the case in the videos...

...........then comes the question: what are the methods of tjq to engage and apply hua, na & fa jin? every style/system has its methods.... if a tjq guy uses sanda / kuoshu for that, the most I can say is: well he tries to apply some tjq, nice trial.

of course in competitive ring one uses what works the best to win, but if tjq is not used with its main methods, I wouldn´t say it´s tjq. think about someone who ever learned only tjq, without mixing with other fighting arts.

here there are some good explanations about fighting with tjq: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BsE8EvxgsI

Hi, Christiano,

You are so right. We had a discussion in another thread about putting gloves on a TJQ practitioner in the ring to fight is ridiculous. In addition, there are rules have to be followed. Speaking about fajin, the last kick on the knock out was well demonstrated. There was lots of jin on the leg which kicked to head of the opponent to cause the KO. That was why what I had said in the above post: "It is not a matter of boxing against Tai Chi; rather, it is a boxer against a Tai Chi body."

Hi, all
There are many way to test the effectiveness of Tai Chi beside putting a TJQ practitioner in fighting ring. I had used arm wresting to test my effectiveness; such as tingjin, level of relaxation, breathing, and endurance. BTW I am convinced that to win the endurance test is not by how much muscle one has. Rather it is what is the amount of mitochondria in the muscles. In the past I had two cases in arm wresting with a weight lifter and a TJQ practitioner. Yesterday, I had a match with two muscular young men to test for endurance for sure. Sincerely, I would like to share these experiences with my feller TJQ practitioners.

Case 1. More than ten to twenty years back, I had a contest with a weight lifter which is my brother-in-law. Our weights about the same, not sure, but was close. It was a draw.

Case 2. I had a match with a TJQ practitioner, a good friend. He weights twenty pounds more than me. In the match, we both tried to hold the center and only apply as much jin as necessary. Nobody wins; It was a draw.

Case 3. Last night, after Thanksgiving dinner, I wanted to test my level of accomplishment in TJQ. I teased a muscular young man, a runner, to give me a challenge. He is taller than I am. Here was what happened with some Tai Chi empirical experiences.

As soon our wrists came in contact, right away, by tingjin( 聽勁) I realized his arm was not relaxed. His arm was very tight. I told him to loosen up(放鬆). As soon we start, he leaned his body to the left and used lots of muscle strength to pull my right arm. I was regulating my breath but not holding as a TJQ or Qi practitioner would. At this point, I was only fajin with the amount of jin just enough to hold my position. I said to "hold" but not "pull" and not trying to win by using extra jin. This is where the endurance test comes into play. While he was hold his breath and I was pumping more oxygen to generate my ATP energy. I knew by holding his breath he will run out of oxygen soon. So, I was just waited, patiently, for him to give up and which he did.

Case 4. Another young man, the son of my brother-in-law, a weight lifter, and very muscular build than the one in Case 3. In the same manner as most people would do. He started off with lots of muscle strength to pull. Again, I just held my poise and breathe by hold the center position without exerting or issuing extra jin and not eager to win. By tingjin, as soon he uses more strength, I exert more jin to counteract the extra opposing force.

At one point I'd felt that he was getting weak, thus I tried to pull and felt that he still has lots of resistance. So, I stop fajin more than I should and let him do all the pulling. The harder he pulls the hotter he gets. He was perspiring and a family member handed him a paper napkin to wipe off the sweat on his face.

I waited patiently as I did in Case 3. This time my opponent did not give up as Case 3. By tingjin again, I felt that his arm was just about to loosen up, I make my move by pulling his arm. I still felt lots of resistance from his arm. However, I know my own strength and continue to pull in the winning direction. Finally, his arm was moving toward the right and he was conceded.

BTW There was no resting period between cases 3 and 4. It was a continuous contest. Finally, the endurance test has proven the effectiveness of TJQ not by going into combat. It also demonstrated that the effectiveness of the diligent practice of the solo slow TJQ form.

I really understand what you said with: There are many way to test the effectiveness of Tai Chi beside putting a TJQ practitioner in fighting ring...
BUT, and that´s a big one, effectiveness in which aspect? to show stability against a push? health improvement? balance improvement? fighting?

if the aspect we are looking for is FIGHTING SKILL, then there are 4 attributes one should also put in the table to discuss: TIMING, POWER, DISTANCE, POSITIONING. As I said before all the techniques work, nobody doubts that, it´s just to take a partner, apply a chin na or a shuai fa (takedown tech), and ok... but this cooperative way to test is not enough for fighting.
IMO, training for fighting requires to put these 4 mentioned attributes under development, test & pressure. I don´t know how the advanced practioners of tjq do that, but in hung kuen kung fu we have methods to start from light to full contact, from the very basic to the more elaborated techniques. I am able to show many techniques of tjq against experts in others martial arts, in a controlled manner, but this is not fighting.
the way usually teachers, masters show techniques are like that: ask someone to throw a punch, they apply ward off; ask to the partner apply ward off, they show a counter, and so on... this is the 'a b c ', the first stage to be able to fight... there´s a long way ahead to really fight, and I am not saying about becoming a pro fighter, training +8h/day. after one knows the first basic application, it should progress to apply it freely in a non cooperative way - to learn TIMING, DISTANCE, etc - if possible train against different players, etc...
if the tjq classes do not play drills to evolve from form and tuishou, pre-set applications, I am pretty sure the students wont acquire effectiveness in fighting.

Christiano wrote: ↑Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:47 pm I really understand what you said with: There are many way to test the effectiveness of Tai Chi beside putting a TJQ practitioner in fighting ring...
BUT, and that´s a big one, effectiveness in which aspect? to show stability against a push? health improvement? balance improvement? fighting?

To be honest, the effectiveness in Tai Chi against a push is not to show stability by a hard push back. Rather it is to neutralize the pushing force by pulling back and guide the force away from your body. That is what push-hands is all about.

Tai Chi is definitely a health improvement and balance improvement. In order to be a good fighter, the health factor is very important. What that means a body must have a great endurance to last an extended period of time against fatigue. One must not reach the state of fatigue before the opponent. Indeed, the Tai Chi breathing skill will overcome that.

In regard to fighting, Tai Chi is a passive martial art. Defensive is the best offensive strategy. Thus Tai Chi was not designed for aggressive fighting but defensive.

if the aspect we are looking for is FIGHTING SKILL, then there are 4 attributes one should also put in the table to discuss: TIMING, POWER, DISTANCE, POSITIONING. As I said before all the techniques work, nobody doubts that, it´s just to take a partner, apply a chin na or a shuai fa (takedown tech), and ok... but this cooperative way to test is not enough for fighting.

The aspect of the four attributes mentioned are hidden in the achievement of Tai Chi practice. The longer one practices the speed of the reaction time will be increased. For example, the reaction time to prevent a fall is must quicker than an ordinary person. BTW It was a testimony from an elderly man who practiced Tai Chi for years. I have no doubt about that with my own personal experience too. Sometimes, I see something falling off the table, my first instant response(without thinking) was to react quickly try to catch it. Regardless, I catch it or not.

IMO, training for fighting requires to put these 4 mentioned attributes under development, test & pressure. I don´t know how the advanced practioners of tjq do that, but in hung kuen kung fu we have methods to start from light to full contact, from the very basic to the more elaborated techniques. I am able to show many techniques of tjq against experts in others martial arts, in a controlled manner, but this is not fighting.

.....if the tjq classes do not play drills to evolve from form and tuishou, pre-set applications, I am pretty sure the students wont acquire effectiveness in fighting.

Based on what you were saying, it sounds like you are a hung kuen(洪拳) practitioner with some Tai Chi knowledge. I am not sure that you have done any Tai Chi practice at all. For that reason, perhaps that was why the question about the effectiveness of Tai Chi had raised in the OP.

Ah, to have such inflated expectations! It reminds me of the martial artists from the Boxer Rebellion who thought that their training would protect them from bullets! Did not happen!

Although not all that James says is false (there is enough in there to make what he says sound reasonable), I do continue to think that he lives excessively in his head/imagination [frog in a well, or looking at the sky through a tube, or monkey mind, or however else one wants to characterize his mental attitude]. But if I were to criticize him forcefully (like slapping a daydreamer on the head to wake him up) he would probably accuse me of either losing my cool or not knowing TJQ. Oh well.

Dream on ChiDragon!

I am telling what it is. Can anyone tell me what it is not?

ChiDragon wrote: ↑Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:16 pm I am telling what it is. Can anyone tell me what it is not?

Good Morning CD

"I am telling what it is."
I see it as your cup is "Full Of Monkey Mind"

"Can anyone tell me what it is not? "
Yes, I can tell you what is not, your cup is not... "half empty"...(All yang and no yin) ;-[ }

Ciao,
yslim