Many different styles of yang tai chi

[Subitai]

Hello I'm new to this board and I didn't really see a members introduction.

Since I also do a "Altered" or modified version of Yang...I thought this might be an appropriate place to make my first comment.

The Yang movements set I do was altered through Gu Ru Zhang (Ku Yu Cheong) family and it's basically done on the Sun style framework. It's also sometimes called "Gu School"

I cannot post any links to videos or articles yet but I hope to be able to in the near future.

Best to you, "O"

[Bob Ashmore]

Subitai,
Welcome to the board.
I have long know of Gu Ru Zhang (Ky Yu Cheung), he is well known as a Northern Shaolin martial artist who twice killed horses with one strike of his Iron Palm techniques during demonstrations where the horse was being used to humiliate Chinese martial artists.
I had no idea he had also trained Tai Chi Chuan.
The bio I just read states that he trained Tai Chi Chuan not only with Sun Lu Tang but also with Yang Ban Hou, who is well known as a Master who was not easy to train with.
Also states he learned "Wudang Sword".
This guy was the "real deal" back in the day, no doubt about it.
I'd be very interested in seeing the Tai Chi forms that came down through him.
So far though I haven't found a single video.
I'll keep looking.
Very interesting gentleman, indeed.

Bob

[Subitai]

Hello Bob,

Thanks for the welcome and might I say it's a nice message board.

I'll see what I can dig up... the short story of it all is basically our form is Yang style done on a Sun frame. Strange I know...but I find it very comforting because I also do Sun Taiji. Albeit the energies are different.

I was going to type it up for you but I figured I could just post up an article by my Si Hing Gene Ching...he's the Asst. Publisher for "Kung Fu Tai Chi Magazine" her in the USA. I must give credit / reference to his writings.

Here's an excerpt:

Grandmaster Ku is a dominant figure in the world of external Kung Fu, as reference in mummeries historical books (see The Spring and Autumn of Chinese Martial arts-5000 Years (B216) p. 85 under Gu Ruzhang). A champion of the heralded 1928 National Martial Arts Examination in Nanjing and one of the fraternity of five masters who traveled south to Canton promoting northern style Kung Fu known as the "Five southbound tigers", Ku was a contemporary of Sun Lu Tang, The founder of Sun style. It was common knowledge that Ku learned this new school directly from grandmaster Sun himself. According to my lineage, I am only four generation from the founder of Sun style. How much variation could arise from three masters would passed this tradition down from the fonder to me?

A little research into each of my predecessors solved this riddle. The key was Tai Yu Ghim, a rare Wudang sword form, included in my curriculum. This form was the famous technique of renown General Li Jinglin (Ibid, p.87), the Deputy director of the Nanjing Martial Arts institute and another Tai Chi instructor of Ku Yu Cheung. Ku included Yang and Tai Yu Ghim into his Tai Chi curriculum, dubbing it "Sun Style, Ku school" He used the Yang form as preparation for the Sun form and added the sword form because of its notoriety. This distinction of "Ku school" becomes very significant because it separates it from the lone Sun form, however it is not as famous as Sun style so it is frequently omitted.

From this article: http://www.wle.com/kungfu/node/73

Best to you, "O"

[Bob Ashmore]

Subitai,
Gene! I know that name!
I have always known Gene as a "Sun style" guy, I had no idea about the full lineage coming down through Gu Ru Zhang.
I have never had the privilege of meeting Gene in person but I have had Forum (Kung Fu Magazine) discussions with him over many years and a few emails back and forth. I am on the Kung Fu Magazine Forum under the same name I use here, which is my real name, though I haven't posted in quite some time over there.
If you are working with Gene's group then you are in very good hands indeed.

Bob

[Subitai]

Here's video version of Part 1 I have put together for my students:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fnNmrMg ... e=youtu.be


"O"

[UniTaichi]

Hi Subitai,

I watched your performace in the video a couple of time and find it ''different'' from the usual Yang or Sun style. Do you have any video of GM Ku doing the form ? I can understand GM Ku put into the form his own experience and flavour, hence the difference. In my own view, I found awkward is in the transition to Single Whip, the Left leg moves out first(while the body not turning) and back again(turning the body this time) and then out to complete the move. I can see the body structure already compromised. The video below shows a smoother transition when one is to move the leg first.

http://youtu.be/gWlj1C-vEWI

They are also a couple of other ''different'' that (IMO again. No offence meant) that we can bring out to discuss and analyse. I must add that GM Ku form is at least 4-5 G vision of Yang style.

Hope to have your view on above.

Cheers,
UniTaichi

[Subitai]

Sure UniTaiChi,

I don't mind the discussion or else I wouldn't have shared.

Let me also say that I chose very carefully to share these things in a thread titled "Many different styles of Yang Tai Chi". So in this regard...I chose share our simple Tai Chi. I would never presume that it is better in any way...again only different.

I'd like to point out that in the video you posted: http://youtu.be/gWlj1C-vEWI at the 1:40 mark you see the people step back with their left foot but it remains "alighted"...then they pivot their center on the balls of their right foot...then eventually into left bow stance. I have seen some schools change their footwork like that because their focus in on being centered. When you pivot that way, true you remain centered but you do not go forward and that is important.

To discuss this, I would like to point out what we are trying to achieve in the moment directly after "Push" (with right foot forward). Remember if you have pushed your opponent away...then consider what is next a new thought.

About the stance change, try this experiment:

Stand in right front bow stance (just after you have pushed), have someone pushing your back (both hands for example on your back shoulder scapulas). A good pushing pressure by the way...not weak.

- As they are pushing you...attempt to change your stance in the exact way in your video. You will be knocked over

- If you pull step back with your left foot and shift your weight back...you will "divert / pivot" the person attempting to push you from behind. Then as your hands move over horizon...right foot pivots on heel, which causes your right hip to thrust forward. In my video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fnNmrMg ... Pk3R055hDw This happens at the 1:10 mark.


I think it's just a difference in goals and what you're trying to achieve.

[UniTaichi]

Hi Subitai,

Yes, it is certainly a new thought, using Single Whip to counter someone pushing from the back. Every move can be explained, so said one of my teachers. For me I am not so creative but stick to how the stroke is done and go from there. The SW apps are meant to counter attackers in front and to the left. IMO, if one uses the SW to counter a back push first, then the other movements may not work to their full potential.(on 2nd thought, maybe I should practice your way to see if it works before saying that ) Anyway, what I am trying to said is, at least for me, each stroke is meant to counter one or a set of strikes coming from a certain direction. If GM Ku put it in there, he must have good reason and most certainly can pull it(the technique/apps) off. So it is different folks, different stroke, different goal.

Some background on myself, I am more of a CMC player and have learned from several teachers and all have some difference in their hand and foot-work. I am also into Wu style taiji, mostly learning the gongfa and apps. I am also exposed to the Old Six Set of the Yang style(GM Li HeSheng), practicing the form together with my friends whenever I visit them.

Regarding the video I posted, you could be correct to said they could be knocked over. But I don't think their way is to counter a back push either.

I will try out what you suggest and see how it works. No harm in learning new apps.

Cheers,
UniTaichi

[Bob Ashmore]

Subitai, Uni,
What it comes down to is that you're each looking at it from the perspective of your own styles form emphasis of the martial application for that one particular movement.
If you watch the rest of each others forms you should easily find the places where each of the particular movements and martial applications you are discussing are fully expressed during other named postures or in the "transition" movements.

Bob

[Subitai]

Here part 2 of our TJ. A bit simplified but basically all there:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqLnGpLDngo

[T]

Subitai

Welcome.

I believe we have run into each other on another forum. Glad to see you here.

I have not yet had a chance to look at the videos, but I will when time allows

T

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