Yang Family Tai Chi Discussion Board

Although I pointed out that the sample size in the previously cited research is rather small (only 29, although they range in age from 1 hour to 95 years old), and the researchers pointed out that the possibility for muscle atrophy in their samples taken from patients undergoing hip operations needs further research, there are some preliminary speculation that we can make (subject to further research).

Of those 29 skeletal muscle tissue samples, 15 were obtained during surgery for hip operations. Since there are 11 samples above the regression line, and the researchers stated that only one of those is from a hip surgery patient, then 14 of the 19 samples below the regression line came from hip surgery patients, and only 5 of those were from autopsies. Since hip surgeries probably occur later in life, we can probably assume that the 5 data points from below age 20 probably come from autopsies rather than hip surgeries. Taken together, and if inactivity preceding hip surgeries led to muscle atrophy (and therefore a lower mtDNA copy number), and if one were to delete those data points from hip surgeries from the graph, then the slope of the regression line would be much steeper than is shown in the graph that accompanies the article (included in my previous post).

This shows a tendency to have an INCREASE in mtDNA simply with age (assuming other research can be found that addresses this subject more specifically). NO need to practice TJQ – you only need to GET OLDER to increase the number of mitochondria in your skeletal muscle cells!

Since older individuals typically become frailer with age (perhaps those around age 60 and above, and probably those above age 80), this also indicates that the increase in mtDNA with age probably does NOT correlate with increased strength and energy. But more research needs to be examined. Perhaps James can provide a link to other research that shows different tendencies.

ChiDragon wrote: ↑Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:41 pm If the heartbeat is very fast, there is less time for the heart chamber to fill with blood between beats. Therefore, not enough blood is pumped to the brain and the rest of the body with each contraction. ... It is often seen in people with conditions that lower the amount of oxygen in the blood.May 16, 2018

This apply to a healthy person, do we have a contradiction on the heart beating rate vs the amount of oxygen......???


Multifocal atrial tachycardia: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia
https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/000186.htm

Tachycardia is an ABNORMAL condition; it does not reflect what happens in a healthy heart! When the body works harder, the heart beats faster in order to pump MORE blood to the tissues that need more oxygen (because of the increased energy needs of those tissues).

So, healthy individuals are stronger and have more energy than unhealthy people [and if TJQ practitioners are also healthy, then they also feel stronger and more energetic than unhealthy people].

DPasek wrote:Since older individuals typically become frailer with age (perhaps those around age 60 and above, and probably those above age 80), this also indicates that the increase in mtDNA with age probably does NOT correlate with increased strength and energy. But more research needs to be examined. Perhaps James can provide a link to other research that shows different tendencies.

Researchers had concluded that the role of exercise plays an important part in manufacturing of mitochondria. Tai Chi is a good isotonic exercise; may we use is as inductive reasoning for this discussion?

There are many articles written about Tai Chi and claims. Was there any scientific proof? Since there are insufficient information about Tai Chi to provide researchers to conduct experiments to relate to the increase the number of mitochrondria in the skeletal muscles, we can only use inductive reasoning to come to a reasonable conclusion.

I have exhausted my source of reasoning. I guess we have come to a cul-de-sac on the subject matter. Thank you all, very much, for your participation in the discussion!


https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 2016300725

Chidragon wrote:I have exhausted my source of reasoning. I guess we have come to a cul-de-sac on the subject matter. Thank you all, very much, for your participation in the discussion!

FYI I am completely satisfy with the claims of my sources. I will not follow others to do anymore wild goose chase to pursue scientific proof on every claim the someone had made.

ChiDragon wrote: ↑Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:59 pm https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 2016300725

I think this is probably the best and most supportive of the information that you have posted so far. It points out that there are studies (it is a review article, not original research) that link an increase in mtDNA with exercise, and that there are other studies that link increased mtDNA with longevity (under certain circumstances; e.g. cancers, Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s diseases also seem to correlate with elevated mtDNA levels, which would, of course, indicate a deleterious effect of increased mtDNA levels – but I do not think that cause and effect have yet been determined for these diseases). One would need to look at the original research to determine how robust the data is (e.g. sample sizes, controls...) - so from the review article it is difficult to know how much weight to give to the various cited data.

ChiDragon wrote:FYI I am completely satisfy with the claims of my sources. I will not follow others to do anymore wild goose chase to pursue scientific proof on every claim the someone had made.

Yea, since you are a layman rather than a scientist, this attitude does not surprise me. A scientist should do their best to pursue as many relevant studies as they can, and to evaluate them for their strengths and weaknesses (not just “cherry picking” information that appears to support their desired ideas).

There seems to be a lot more information on mtDNA levels in body fluids (blood, lymph) than muscles, simply because of the ease of obtaining these samples, and the information from studies using fluids would not necessarily correlate with what happens in skeletal muscles (unless one found specific studies that show a valid correlation). Also problematic is that studies on skeletal muscle tissue samples typically have relatively few subjects, which limits the strength of their conclusions (large population studies would be stronger).

But there is available information that could both support and weaken the idea that increased mtDNA levels may be beneficial. The following is some of the information that I have found from a very brief search:
1. Perhaps half or more of the copy number of one’s mtDNA is inherited (from one’s mother) and is therefore not really subject to an individual’s personal lifestyle factors (although that leaves almost 50% that can be). Higher mtDNA copy numbers appear to be associated with better general health (physical and mental), including higher cognition and lower mortality; but there is some evidence that the increased longevity may correlate with mtDNA copy number AT BIRTH (negating some of the potential for individuals’ lifestyles to influence longevity).
2. Females appear to have higher (slight but significant) mtDNA copy numbers than males. [Note that since females tend to live slightly longer than males do, this could support the longevity angle.] [Note that any studies comparing mtDNA copy numbers that do not control for differences in the sex of the subjects may skew the data slightly.]
3. Increases in mtDNA copy numbers do not appear to correlate with measures of general fitness (e.g. walking speed or grip strength), which would appear to contradict the idea than more mtDNA leads to greater muscular strength.
4. Specifically for “pear shaped” Bob – there does seem to be a correlation between increased mtDNA copy number and the circumference of one’s waist (and the waist-hip ratio), but not to BMI (shape, but not about being overweight – non-overweight “pear shape” may be beneficial, and for more than the lowered center of gravity!).

I am certain that there is much more of interest available in the current scientific literature, but I will stop looking for now unless James or some other forum participant brings the subject up in future posts. So, like James, for now at least, I am signing out from this thread.

Hi DPasek,

You are right! Any theory was not proving by scientific method is only a hypothesis. Since there are no scientist had come up with any valid experiment, I am purposely tried to make my hypothesis sounded like real. I was hoping someone like you or whoever would challenge this hypothesis and has the ability to conduct an experiment for its validity. It is a little shameful that TJQ practitioners are not scientists, and vice versa, to relate TJQ to science and settle this once and for all. Someday, let's hope scientists will under TJQ a little more and set up some valid parameters to conduct a conclusive experiment.

So far, all these guess works are ridiculous in the modern scientific world. Cherry picking is the best of my ability to come as close as I could with a good explanation. I am pretty sure that these cherries I had picked do have some significant values. I think someone already had considered them in a scientific manner once before. Like you said, I am not a scientist but a TJQ practitioner.

I am a seventy year old man. I am practicing TJQ for health and longevity. I am pursuing all the benefits by following the claims of what TJQ will provide. Presently, I am very healthy and energetic. I am just hoping by passing my empirical experience, with some kind of explanation, down to the next generation. So, it will give them some idea of what I think about TJQ from my point of view.

Right now, at least once or twice, I am practicing TJQ, Tai Chi sword and pick up on the sabre everyday. Let's wait and see how long I will live. If you don't see me posting on my progress, then, that means I have gone.

BTW It was my honor to come this close with a scientific person in discussing mitochondria.

Edited: I don't know why you have brought the mtDNA into the discussion. It seems irrelevant to me in the mitochondrial reproduction of ATP.

DPasek wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2017 1:03 pm
Since there is no evidence (that I am aware of) that the mitochondria in healthy Taijiquan practitioners is any different than in healthy non-practitioners, information on the mitochondria probably does not help us.

CD’s post seems to be based on the assumption that there is an increased ATP level in Taijiquan practitioners compared to non-practitioners. There is actually some evidence that even a presumed increased in ATP levels does not increase strength or endurance. Therefore, CD’s hypothesis appears, at this time, to be incorrect. See the 2008 Sports Nutrition article:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2253504/

This article is not a good argument. It is because the mentioned exercises were not comparable to Taiji or Qigong. It has the opposite effect as compared to Taiji.

Vertical jump, Isometric strength, Leg extension endurance, and Forearm flexion endurance are consuming oxygen while Taiji was constantly providing more oxygen to the body cells. Eventually, the other exercises will consume oxygen faster than it can be provided.

By chance I come across this discussion, a topic that interests me as a longtime tai chi practitioner.
Dpasek is right, there is not yet an evidence based research (the medical gold standard) on the relationship between taichi practice and mitochondria or ATP improvement. This reasearch will be very hard to be designed, since the outcome scores are not easy to be measured, but you never know, hopefully 1 day it could be conducted. In the meantime, we could look at other researches that are already been done, to get an intuitive feeling that taichi most probably could improve the mitochondrial functions and with this the ATP genesis. Herefore I would like to refer to 2 articles:
1. Gong-xiang Duan et al, Effects of Tai Chi on telomerase activity and gerotranscendense in middle aged and elderly adults in Chinese society,
see: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 3215300363
2.Rachel David, Mitochondria and telomeres come together, see: https://www.nature.com/articles/nrm3082
By reading these 2 articles, you come to an indirect correlative conclusion, that most probably tai chi does improve the mitochondrial function
and so the ATP biogenesis. Because, when tai chi does have an effect on the telomerase activity and herewith protects someone's telomeres (lifespan, health) and there is also a positive correlation between the telomeres and the mitochondria function, indirectly a tai chi practice will improve the mitochondria function.
Probably Dpasek is still not convinced hereby, but the many tai chi lovers will still convinced in their unique practice.

The second study is a step in the right direction and does support linking telomere dysfunction to mitochondrial biology:

In summary, multiple levels of evidence establish telomere dysfunction-induced p53 represses PGC-1α and PGC-1β, thereby linking telomeres to mitochondrial biology, oxidative defence, and metabolism.

It also shows results specific to the concern with ATP synthesis and content:

Together, these results demonstrate defective electron transport chain activity in both G4 liver and heart mitochondria. In this regard, G4 heart mitochondria displayed significantly decreased ATP synthesis rates. This impaired mitochondrial ATP synthesis is associated with decreased total ATP content in G4 hearts and livers.

So now one can probably link studies of Taijiquan and telomeres to changes in mitochondria and ATP levels.

Unfortunately, the other study is somewhat lacking. What they show may be OK, but they fail to control for ANY other activity that may also produce the observed effects. Having one control group that is prohibited from engaging in additional exercising is fine, but it would have been much more informative if they had a second control group that did a comparable exercise that had nothing to do specifically with Taijiquan. For example, would a group that simply went for a walk for an hour (an equal amount of time as the Taijiquan group) with the same frequency (5x/week for 6 months) show similar results? If so, then the benefits would be attributed to ACTIVITY vs. INACTIVITY rather than specifically to anything additional that Taijiquan could confer. The conclusion then would be that increased activity (including Taijiquan exercises) leads to the improvements. If there are better studies on Taijiquan and telomere dysfunction, then this could be interesting.

I should perhaps be clearer about the last post. The study on TJQ and telomeres does appear to show beneficial effects, so one could probably extrapolate to the mitochondria and ATP.

But ChiDragon’s apparent premise is that ATP is equivalent to qi AND that TJQ builds qi while most other exercises deplete qi [he can correct me if I’m wrong about his ideas]. The problem with the study, and it is given in the background information, is that exercises like aerobics (presumed to be a type of exercise that depletes qi) also shows the beneficial effect on telomeres (and therefore on mitochondria and ATP).

If one just wanted to show possible benefits for TJQ, then the study is OK. But if one wanted to promote these benefits as therapy, then it is insufficient. For example, if simply having patients walk for the same amount of time as the TJQ group class, then TJQ would not be as good for therapy as walking since walking does not require a teacher or a specific class time commitment like TJQ does, and therefore walking would be free, and be more convenient, and could be implemented immediately rather than requiring one to learn anything.

To support ChiDragon’s idea that the mitochondrial production of ATP is equivalent to the qi development (enhancement) from practicing TJQ, rather than from other energy depleting types of exercises, then the study does not offer sufficient supporting evidence.

Our bodies require energy to carry out all the functions. We can make the body to function at its highest degree by providing the most power producing capability. Since the mitochondria require a continuous supply of oxygen in the electron transport chain cycle, It is because it is a less strenuous exercise and its increase of oxygen uptake by the Tai Chi breathing method. Thus Tai Chi should be considered in the high-intensity interval training (HIIT).
http://my.moxymonitor.com/blog/bid/2653 ... -with-HIIT


Increase the mitochondrial density will boost the body's energy level.
http://my.moxymonitor.com/blog/bid/3269 ... erformance

IMHO I would think by measuring the mitochondrial density and strength tests on Tai Chi practitioners would be a more valid experiment.

Tai Chi has health benefits for all ages. The practice will increase the body's energy level regardless of age. The energy was generated by cell respiration during muscle contraction. The contraction of muscles activates the mitochondria to initiate the production of ATP to release energy. The production of ATP was by the decomposition of the stored glucose interacted with oxygen. For that said, a constant supply of oxygen will have the ATP generated continuously. Hence, the body will be fine-tuned and function to its peak. In other words, as long the body has ample energy to work with, it continues to carry out its functions.

The stored source of energy is acquired for the foods we eat. The oxygen was from breathing. One can breathe more oxygen by improving the breathing habit. Breathing deep and slow will allow more time for the red blood cells to collect the oxygen and delivered them to the cells. That is what the Tai Chi breathing method was doing.

What I trying to convey is hopefully, someday, someone will conduct experiments that will be emphasized on the measurements of mitochondrial density. It is because exercising will increase the mitochondrial density in the body by muscle contraction. Especially, the slow movements in Tai Chi practice as compared to other exercises. The constant slow movements of muscle contraction will demand more energy. As a result, the number of mitochondria will be increased in the muscles to meet the energy demand. Thus that is why Tai Chi is more effective than other exercises.

OK, I’ll make one more attempt at an explanation. If CD does not understand this explanation, then I have to conclude that he is either incapable of understanding, or unwilling to do so; but if other readers understand, then that is enough for me.

• All the links that CD has provided address normal conditions in cells, or contrasts normal conditions to chronic hypoxia (i.e., worse than normal).

• CD’s proposals for Taijiquan propose ABOVE normal conditions (i.e., increased qi energy).

• CD’s links do not address conditions that are chronically (or acutely) above the normal conditions. He has either failed to search for this information, or he has failed to find it, or understand it, or to provide links to it.

• Therefore, CD’s apparently unchecked and unconfirmed extrapolations and assumptions about above normal conditions are NOT supported by the information that he provided links to (which only address normal or below normal conditions).

• Summary: Knowing about normal and below normal conditions does not mean that one knows about above normal conditions.

• Conclusion: CD’s proposals (concerning ABOVE normal conditions) are MADE UP.

[Note: the unsupported and un-researched extrapolations and assumptions that CD makes (and that his “house of cards” is built on) are analogous to saying that we know that a car does not run without gas, but we also know that it can run fine when it has normal levels of gas in the tank; then concluding that keeping the gas topped off, or even overfilling the tank, would make a car run even better! While this is not ALL made up (the statements about a car not running without gas, and that it runs with normal levels of gas are true and are supported by common knowledge and science), but the subsequent information is unsupported, and is actually untrue!]

OK, what about ATP should be discussed? Yes, ATP is a very important energy source, but we are not concerned with levels when starving or fasting, are we? Nor, for TJQ, are we concerned with genetic defects like mitochondrial deficiency of ATP synthase (those born with this typically only live months or years). For TJQ we should only address ATP levels in healthy individuals (not during disease states, or during injuries, or any other abnormal situations), and really only if there is some difference shown between normal individuals (or athletes, etc.) and TJQ practitioners (AFAIK there is no difference). If there is no difference, then there is no need to address ATP in TJQ practitioners. Normal = normal!

Many cell systems are highly regulated and having TOO MUCH of something can be bad. We typically know more about deficiencies than we do about excesses in cellular processes (with the exception of things like cholesterol), but narrow optimal operating ranges are very common.

So, for example, we know that we lose energy when we are oxygen depleted (hypoxia), like when at high altitudes or after vigorous workouts, but our blood oxygen levels are typically around 95% or so. If the blood oxygen levels go to 90% or below, an individual can have difficulties, especially when active rather than being sedentary. Is a blood oxygen level of 100% (atypical) any more beneficial than being at 98% (within the normal range)? With ATP is it a matter of having the normal capacity for the normal needs, and does having even more mean that one has super energy (super qi)?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenylate_kinase
“Adenylate kinase is present in mitochondrial and myofibrillar compartments in the cell, and it makes two high-energy phosphoryls (β and γ) of ATP available to be transferred between adenine nucleotide molecules. In essence, adenylate kinase shuttles ATP to sites of high energy consumption and removes the AMP generated over the course of those reactions. These sequential phosphotransfer relays ultimately result in propagation of the phosphoryl groups along collections of ADK molecules. This process can be thought of as a bucket brigade of ADK molecules that results in changes in local intracellular metabolic flux without apparent global changes in metabolite concentrations. This process is extremely important for overall homeostasis of the cell.”

Note: “without apparent global changes in metabolite concentrations.” It appears from this that one would NOT benefit from EXCESS ATP in the cells when the actions of adenylate kinase help to maintain homeostasis (i.e., a constant concentration) of ATP in cells.

One familiar example of homeostasis is the regulation of body temperature within a narrow acceptable range. If your body temperature gets too low you could die from hypothermia; if it gets too high you could die from heat stroke. A more relevant example for the energy system in the body would be the regulation of pH within a very narrow range. Energy production from ATP (ATP to ADP hydrolysis) involves the release of a hydrogen ion which would change the pH of the cell (making it more acidic) if not regulated. The removal of this hydrogen ion is what leads to muscle fatigue.

CD would need to show how Taijiquan practice would change the ATP homeostasis in cells, AND show that this would be beneficial (rather than harmful) to the individuals. It may not be like money where the more you have is better, for ATP levels in a cell, more than normal could be harmful. He would have to show that ATP can be stored to give someone a surplus (like a charged battery) rather than it constantly being replaced in the system (the half-life of ATP in arterial blood is <1 second!).

There is too much that, to me, does not seem likely in the theory that ATP = qi and that TJQ produces sustainably higher than normal levels of ATP in practitioners. I think that the theory is highly improbable and not worth any more of my time investigating. But for those who are interested, the following are some sources and lines of inquiry that you may wish to study.

https://www.carlarobbins.com/single-pos ... le-fatigue
“Whether or not [ATP] changes with peripheral fatigue and whether or not changes in [ATP] are relevant to force production, have been controversial topics among researchers. ATP is used in excitation contraction coupling, by ion pumps and transporters, and for chemical signaling cascades (MacIntosh et al. 2012). A decrease in ATP would, for example, result in reduced force production and altered cross bridge mechanics (Fitts, 1994). While there have been reports of [ATP] falling to critical levels, the majority of research suggests that overall muscle [ATP] does not fall more than 10-20% of normal values (Fitts, 1994; Allen et al, 2008; MacIntosh et al. 2012).”

http://www.feeltheqi.com/articles/rc-oxygen.htm
Fatigue is the result of the body trying to remove the hydrogen ion which would lead to acidity of the cell – NADPH – Water... [The Everest Principle]

https://www.qigonginstitute.org/abstrac ... tp-content

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17185366
Human plasma ATP concentration is reported in many studies as roughly 1000 nmol/L.

Point of interest: “Furthermore, we find that the half-life of ATP in arterial blood is <1 s.”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3099034/
How long does the ATP last in a Taiji body after a long time of practice? Is the half-life of ATP different than for an average person?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3099034/
Blood variables at rest and during incremental cycling to exhaustion [normoxia and hypoxia...heart rate?]

Perhaps one could first search the literature on boosted ATP levels in animals like mice (or zebra fish, fruit flies...). Although not always a reliable measure for what happens in humans, it is a start, and the ease of experimentation means that many preliminary studies are conducted in animals before testing in humans. I think there are some studies in mice that support CD’s position (e.g., that increased ATP levels improves muscle function). If interested in studying this further, one should be as comprehensive as you can – do not only select those studies that seem to strengthen your position while dismissing those that seem to weaken it. Remember to search for truth rather than just support.

Importantly, the idea of using ill people as a valid comparison to healthy Taijiquan masters (or other long term practitioners) should be abandoned. It is an apples-to-oranges type of comparison.

DPasek wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:53 pm [Note: the unsupported and un-researched extrapolations and assumptions that CD makes (and that his “house of cards” is built on) are analogous to saying that we know that a car does not run without gas, but we also know that it can run fine when it has normal levels of gas in the tank; then concluding that keeping the gas topped off, or even overfilling the tank, would make a car run even better! While this is not ALL made up (the statements about a car not running without gas, and that it runs with normal levels of gas are true and are supported by common knowledge and science), but the subsequent information is unsupported, and is actually untrue!]

Importantly, the idea of using ill people as a valid comparison to healthy Taijiquan masters (or other long term practitioners) should be abandoned. It is an apples-to-oranges type of comparison.

Please! DPasek
You are making a erroneous statement here. You cannot assume I am comparing an automobile to a human body. An automobile is mechanical and the human body is biological. The gasoline may be stored in an automobile. However, ATP energy do not store in the human body. It can be generated more than the body needs. All the excess or used ATP will vanish in few seconds.

Your reasoning: the subsequent information is unsupported, and is actually untrue! It is untrue was based by invalid analogy and assumption on your part.

ChiDragon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:13 am Tai Chi should be considered in the high-intensity interval training (HIIT).

Please! ChiDragon,

You think that Taijiquan is a form of high-intensity interval training (HIIT)!