Yang Family Tai Chi Discussion Board

Audi,
I believe we are battling semantics rather than disagreeing on, or about, principle.
Perception is reality and how each person perceives Tai Chi Chuan is their individual reality. That said...
I do not perceive the motion of the legs/hips to be a "rocking back and forth" type of movement.
The idea of "rocking back and forth" with the leg/hip movements conflicts with how I perceive the Essential "Practice continuously and without interruption". I perceive there would be a "break" in the energy when rocking back and forth rather than a continuous, uninterrupted flow.
In my perception of leg/hip usage (which I did not invent but I have done my best to research and verify as well as simplify and standardize for others to use), I picture a continuous circling of the legs/hips. More in line with how I perceive the statement, "Like the endless pulling of silk from a cocoon".
I cannot perceive how I would be able to endlessly pull silk from a cocoon if I was using a motion of rocking back and forth, but I can clearly picture it if I am moving my legs/hips in a continuous circle.
My theory on this continuous circling of the hips, driven by the legs, extends to the turning of the waist and how that works in my view of Tai Chi Chuan energy usage.
It is rather boring to most folks who don't care about this kind of thing.
However, I have been teaching it to my students and have had some pretty incredible results.
Even my partner has begun to work with it now that he's been brought in on it fully and done his own research. He was the longest standing hold out on the matter.
That said...
I've mentioned previously that it's not quite ready to be trotted out yet.
Soon it will be, but even then it's going to take a lot of typing to get it all down.
I've only got about twenty minutes left today to play online and there is simply no way I could get it down sufficiently for anyone else to understand it in that amount of time even if I were prepared to do so at this point.
Let me leave you with this:
Find an anatomy book, look up the hips, the legs, the hip sockets and the pelvic girdle.
Look at the bone structure, look at the muscles, the ligaments, the tendons, the fascia and how they all work together in movement.
That will certainly help you to understand how I perceive a continuous rolling of the hips and how that works during Tai Chi Chuan.
It gets tricky, because the direction of the rotation is pretty critical to how smoothly this works and the direction most people rotate when they walk is exactly the opposite of what I perceive to be the correct rotation for Tai Chi Chuan.
They are "falling and catching" themselves repeatedly. There's an easier way, I think, and when done with the correct rotation you no longer "fall and catch" yourself even when you walk. With both feet on the floor it turns into an incredibly smooth way to move.
That incorrect hip direction rotation (for TCC) is why you see a lot of peoples back hips jutting upwards during form seminars.
You've all seen it, I'm sure.
Yang Jun will walk through a crowd of students standing in a held posture, he is pushing their back hips down because they're popped up and they are out of alignment.
Incorrect rotational direction will do that, every time.
I've said it before so I give nothing new away here, "The back hip pushes down and back, the front hip pulls up and forward" (this is only half of the story though).
If you reverse that rotation you end up with the back hip jutting up at the forward weighted position of a held bow stance.
Thinking of the hips circling "backwards" (to "normal"), my students no longer jut that back hip up at all.

My time is up for the day.
Again, this is how I perceive this.
No one else has to perceive this the way I do or agree with my perception.
It works for me. It works for everyone else I've ever taught it to.
It's not just me using it, I've shared this with other teachers (from different TCC Styles) to see how they like it and to see if their students could benefit from it.
So far there are three of us teaching this and so far it's worked out well for all of us.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving.
More as I can, probably not until Monday at least.

Bob

Bob Ashmore wrote:Yslim,

My take on this is long and detailed and would most likely bore most people to tears. I am working with several people on my theories of hip/leg usage in conjunction with the waist, how it all works, why it works, how to do it, etc, but they're not really ready for public viewing yet.
I am no expert on anything to do with Tai Chi Chuan, far, far, far from it in fact, but one area of particular interest and detailed study is the hips/legs/waist unification and usage during Tai Chi Chuan.
Having studied (poorly, very poorly) Wu Chien Chuan style Tai Chi Chuan for a number of years with Eddie Wu's constant refrain of, "Use your hips! How can you have any power if you don't use your hips?", "Turn from the hip, the hip!", and his theory of "Three Sections, Nine Parts" of the body being drilled into me, then moving to KY and coming over to train (poorly, very poorly) Traditional Yang Family Tai Chi Chuan where "the waist" is considered the focal point.
I was some confused.
OK, I was completely flummoxed.
My TYFTCC students all call me "hip happy", because I teach how to use the hips along with the waist.
Having spent nearly 13 years working through and consolidating the idea of hips vs. waist, then figuring out that without one the other doesn't matter very much, I have finally reached a happy place where I have integrated the two styles theories and am at peace that neither is wrong.

I won't go any further with that here.
As I said my "theories" are still being polished and tested by myself, my partner Jim and even by my good friend Skip who is an instructor of Wu/Hao Tai Chi Chuan with Jimmy Wong's group in TX. We're using every single Tai Chi Chuan and anatomy reference material we can get our hands on that mention either hips or waist.
We've formulated some ideas and have been working with our respective groups of friends and students to see if they work out. So far, they have. But we still need to do a bit more to be sure of our conclusions.
We have, perhaps, gone a bit overboard on this.
But we're having fun and learning quite a lot from it, so we'll keep going.
Perhaps one day we'll get it all down and present the ideas publicly.

Bob

HI BOB,

I DO RESPECT YOUR PRIVACY ACT. PERHAPS ONE DAY YOU WILL GIVE US A GREAT PRESENTATION.
WHILE WE WAIT, I WOULD LIKE TO BORROW YOUR POST AS A PLATFORM TO SHARE SOMETHING WITH OTHER ABOUT THE HIPS/LEGS/WAISTS. THE TAIJI CLASSIC'S TELLING US "LOOK TO THE WAIST IF THERE IS ANY 'ILLNESS" IN THE MOVEMENT." IN ALL MY YEARS OF TCQ TRAINING THE INSTRUCTIONS WAS GIVEN IN KIND OF ESOTERICALLY TERMS. WE HAVE NO BLUE PRINT WHAT ARE WE REALLY LOOKING FOR IN THE WAIST WHEN OUR MOVEMENT LOOKS SICK. FOR MORE THAN 2 DECADES IN MY TCQ PRACTICE, BEFORE I RUN INTO MASTER SAM CHIN. I WAS NEVER SURE OF THIS. I AND SO MANY OTHER HAVE SEEN OR TOUCH THAT SHOW SIGN OF LOST THE CENTER OF GRAVITY WHEN WE MOVE THE HIP, AND WAIST. THE OBVIOUS SIGHT WHEN WE LOST THE BALANCE IS TRY TO REGAIN IT WITH ANY QUICK JERKY ACTION. THROUGH THE YEARS I WAS LUCKY TO BE ABLE TO COLLECT MANY PIECES OF JIGSAW PUZZLES IN ESOTERIC CODE ALONG THE WAY. WHEN I MEET MASTER SAM CHIN BY CHANCE 3 YEARS AGO. THROUGH HIS MICRO-DETAIL TEACHING OF TAIJI PRINCIPLE IN HIS "I LIQ CHUAN" WORKSHOP. I FINALLY GOT A HD QUALITY PICTURE IN MY MIND WHAT I SHOULD LOOK FOR IN THE WAIST.

OUR TCQ MOVEMENT'S ILLNESS WAS OFTEN CAUSED BY OUR ERROR USING THE WAIST'S CIRCUMFERENCE TO THROW THE CENTER/EQUILIBRIUM OFF THE CRADLE. IF ONE USES THE HIP, OR SHIFT WEIGHT WHILE PAYING NO ATTENTION TO HOW THE CIRCLE WITH A CENTER RELATIONSHIP WORKS, AND HAVE NO IDEA THAT THE CENTER IS OFF THE CRADLE. DURING OUR ILC INTENSIVE WORKSHOP HE MUST HAD SEEN THIS "ILLNESS" IN OUR MOVEMENT. HE SAID "DON'T SHIFT WEIGHT, [ BECAUSE WE SHIFT OFF TOO MUCH FROM THE CENTER] SO JUST SHIFT, BUT CLOSE-BY TO YOUR CENTER. DON'T TURN HIP, TURN THE SACRUM [SACRAL BONE] DON'T TURN THE WAIST, TURN THE COCCYX. DON'T SHIFT AND TURN WITH THE BODY UP AND DOWN MOTIONS, YOU MUST DO IT WITH A SPIRAL MOTION DOWN/UP BOTH WAY [RIGHT LEG AND LEFT LEG EACH HAS ITS OWN LOOPING YIN/YANG ), NOT JUST ONE WAY. NOT JUST A STRAIGHT UP AND STRAIGHT SITTING DOWN. NO SINKING LIKE SQUAT. NEED SONG KUA BE IN POSITION OF NEUTRAL, ALWAYS STAYING IN READINESS CONDITION, THAT MEANS IN THE NEUTRAL. ONLY FROM NEUTRAL POINT ONE CAN CREATE THE COMPLIMENTARY POWER. "SPIRAL" BOTH FEET [SOLES], BY PUTTING THE YI ON THE FEET TO RECOGNIZE THE PROCESS TO UNIFY THE LOWER WITH THE UPPER BODY IN A SPIRAL MOTION TO BRING THE SHEN/SPIRIT TO THE TOP OF THE HEAD. USE THE YANG [FULL] SIDE TO PROJECT FROM THE DAN TIEN WITH THE HELP OF THE "BELT MUSCLE", THIS LARGE MUSCLE START FROM THE LUMBAR AREA, THE BACK/YANG SIDE OF THE BODY, WRAPPING AROUND THE WAIST LINE FROM TWO SIDES OF RIGHT/LEFT TOWARD THE FRONT/YIN/[EMPTY SIDE OF THE BODY]. THEN IT LOOPS DOWN INTO 'PIRIFORM MUSCLE' (I THINK),WHICH ATTACHES TO THE KUA. FROM THERE IT SPIRALS DOWN TOWARD THE YANG/OUTER SIDE OF THE LEG, THAT GIVES A SPIRAL MOTION SENDING THE YI WITH ENERGY TAILGATING TOWARD THE GROUND.THIS SIMULTANEOUSLY CAUSES A COMPRESSION WITH THE GROUND'S ENERGY.( AS THE PROJECTING GOING DOWN FROM THE DAN TIAN. THE ABSORBING BEGINS TO SUCK UP FROM THE FEET TO THE DAN TIEN). MY TCQ MASTER GEORGE XU WOULD SAY " YOU GIVE ENERGY TO THE GROUND, GROUND GIVES ENERGY BACK". SO WHY NOT USE THE YIN/(EMPT) MUSCLES OF EACH LEG TO SUCK/DRAWING UP THE "GROUND'S GIVING ENERGY", SIMULTANEOUSLY AS YOU ARE PROJECTING IN THE YANG SIDE DOWN TO THE FEET. HE CALLS IT A "2 WAY STREET",TO DAN TIEN AND COMPRESS THIS ENERGIES FROM BOTH LEGS (THROUGH YIN MUSCLE) LIKE A TORNADO FORMING A "JIN" SIMULTANEOUSLY SEND IT UPWARDLY TO THE TOP OF THE HEAD, CROWN POINT. THE TAIJI CLASSIC CALL THIS "THE SHEN/SPIRIT( NO,NOT THAT SPIRIT, GOD ONLY HELPS THOSE WHO HELP THEMSELVES, SO GO PRACTICE) MUST RAISE FROM HEEL TO DENG/CROWN POINT". KEEP YOUR AWARENESS ON THE SACRUM! YOU TURN THE SACRUM ! DON'T TURN WAIST BUT TURN THE SACRUM! HE WAS ADAMANT ABOUT THIS SACRUM. I DECIDED TO BRING OUT THIS BIG ANTOMY BOOK OF MINE ( IT MEASURE 17"X24" WHEN CLOSED). THE SACRUM IS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PELVIC GIRDLE IT LOOKS LIKE A 'BUTTERFLY'. BUT IT IS NOT IN ONE SOLID PIECE AS I THOUGHT IT WAS. THE PICTURE SHOWS IT IS IN THREE PIECES! THE SACRUM IS IN THE MIDDLE, IT HAS A 'CRACK' (SACROILIAC JOINT) ON EACH SIDE OF THE SACRAL BONE. THAT MAKES THE SACRAL BONE LOOK LIKE THE BUTTERFLY BODY AND THE PELVIS/HIP BONE AT EACH SIDE AS ITS WINGS, AND THE 'CRACKS/SACROILIAC JOINTS ARE THE HINGES. AT THE LOWER SIDE OF THE PELVIS GIRDLE THERE IS A GAP CALL 'PUBIC ANGLE/ARCH" THAT SEPARATES THE PELVIS GIRDLE BONE. THE BOOK HAS DIAGRAMS WITH LINE DRAWINGS TO ILLUSTRATE A CIRCLE WITH A CENTER INSIDE OF THIS PELVIS GIRDLE. CIRCLE IS FORMED BY OUTLINE THE "TERMINAL LINE" OF THE GIRDLE ON THE LEFT-HALF AND THE "LARCUATE LINE ON THE RIGHT HALF. WITHIN THIS CIRCLE SHOWING THE 3 DIMENSIONS DYNAMIC LOOKING LIKE A CIRCLE WITH A CENTER PLUS THE 8 GATES.(FORMED BY SUPERIMPOSED THESE TWO CROSSES,X +) ALSO THE LIGAMENTS, ANGLES AND AXES. WHEN THE KUAS PIVOT TO 'JIGGLE' TO KEEP THE TORSO IN BALANCE, IT MOVES THE WHOLE THING IN A SOMEWHAT OF SPIRAL FASHION IN MIND (LIKE AN ANCIENT CHINESE CARPENTER'S DRILL) TURNS LIKE A 'SCREW' NOT 'NAIL' LIKE IN MOTION. THE SACRUM ACT AS THE DRILL/AXIS WHILE THE 'LUMBAR' SITS ON TOP OF SACRUM'S BASE WORKING AS DRILL BIT. THE POWER IS FROM THE YIN YANG SPIRALING LEGS THAT TURN THE KUAS. FROM MY ANATOMY BOOK I CAN SEE SO MUCH DETAIL IN THE PELVIC GIRDLE. NOW I HAVE A MUCH CLEARER PICTURE WHY PAYING SO MUCH ATTENTION ON THE SACRAL BONE AND "SONG THE KUAS" SO THE SACROFEMERAL LIGAMENT CAN LOOSEN A TIGHT GRIP TO LET THE PELIC GIRDLE BE IN MOTION YET HOLDING THEM IN PLACE. SO IT CAN "BREATH" WHILE DOING TAIJI MOVEMENTS.

OUR BODY IS IN A SPHERE WITH A CENTER. THE WAISTLINE IS THE CIRCUMFERENCE WITH THE CENTER IN THE MIDDLE. LIKE CARTWHEEL WITH THE HUB/AXIS. PLACE AN IMAGINARY TAIJI POST/PLUMB LINE/EQUILIBRIUM/BODY CENTER LINE, FROM ABOVE THE "CROWN POINT". DOWN THROUGH THE CENTER OF THE PELVIC GIRDLE. THROUGH THE PERINEUM ,ONTO THE MIDDLE OF AN IMAGINARY BEAM BETWEEN THE LEGS (FROM ANKLE TO ANKLE). NOW THE TEST IS THIS…WHEN YOU USE THE WAIST, THE CIRCUMFERENCE OF THE CIRCLE, SHALL HAVE NO CONCAVE NOR CONVEX SPOT. THIS WILL MAINTAIN EVERY POINT ON THE CIRCLE AS AN "ARC" TO PIVOT. CHANGING WITH A CHANGE AT THE MOMENT OF NOW. ( TO THINK ABOUT IT, THEN YOU ARE IN THE MOMENT OF THE PAST, TOO LATE) WHEN IN OFFENSE ONE MUST HAVE THIS 'ARC'. THE ROUNDNESS OF THE HIGH POINT OF THE CIRCLE. IT ALSO CALLED THE CONTACT/PIVOT/TAIJI POINT. IN DEFENSE ONE NEEDS TO BE IN THE OFFENSE POSITION. THUS TAIJI PRINCIPLE SAY "OFFENSE IS DEFENSE, DEFENSE IS OFFENSE". BECAUSE THIS CONDITION IS "SO COOL" ONE CAN DO THIS ONE STOP SHOPPING AT THE ARC. IT CAN PIVOT IN ALL DIRECTIONS AS LONG AS ONE CAN MAINTAIN THE CIRCUMFERENCE'S ROUNDNESS WITH A BALANCED EQUILIBRIUM, AND KNOW THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THEM. THUS MAINTAIN THE 8 GATE OF THE TCQ, AS THE SPOKES FROM THE HUB TO THE RIM. IF THE RIM IS OUT OF SHAPE, THE HUB IS OFF THE CENTER, THUS BUMPY ROAD AHEAD. SO IT DOES THE SAME TO THE WAIST. WHEN THE CIRCLE IS BENT IT WILL CHANGE THE CENTER'S POSITION UNLESS ONE KNOWS HOW THEIR RELATIONSHIP WORKS. OTHERWISE ONE WILL BE OFF BALANCE. YOU ARE BEING CONTROLLED.

TO BE IN CONTROL. IF YOU WANT TO TURN YOUR OPPONENT TO THE RIGHT. YOU WILL BE BETTER OFF TO FOCUS ON THE SACRUM AS THE AXIS TO TURN THE LUMBAR, THEN THE SPINE TURNS THE HANDS THAT TURNS YOUR OPPONENT OFF BALANCE. SINCE THE SACRUM HAS ITS LIMITATION TO TURN ALL THE WAY AROUND IN ITS OWN AXIS. BUT THE YI AND CHI CAN CONTINUE ON TO TURN THE CENTER'S "AXIS" TO COMPLETE THIS CIRCLE. SET YOUR MENTAL PICTURE; START FROM THE LEFT/YANG SIDE OF THE BACK OF YOUR SACRUM BONE. MARK THIS SPOT AS THE "SOUTH" ON THE AXIS. THEN ROTATING TOWARD THE "SW" BY THEN THE LUMBAR HAS REACHED ITS PHYSICAL LIMIT OF TURNING, BUT THE YI AND CHI WILL CARRY ON THIS TASK ROTATING TOWARD THE "W", THEN TURNING TOWARD "NW", WHEN IT REACHES THE "NORTH" TAKE A MOMENT TO RECOGNIZE THIS,IT IS A IMPORTANT CONJUNCTION TO KNOW IT WELL. THIS IS THE "NEUTRAL" POINT FOR CHANGING WITH A CHANGE; FROM LEFT/YANG TO RIGHT/YIN SIDE. THUS THE YIN/YANG ENERGIES ALSO NEED TO BE CHANGED HERE, AS THE YANG IS TO PROJECT (IN THIS CASE IT WAS FROM "SOUTH" TOWARD "WEST" AND THE LEFT TO THE "NORTH". THIS HALF IS THE YANG SIDE OF THE CIRCLE. HERE YOU ARE ABOUT TO ENTER THE YIN/RIGHT SIDE OF THE CIRCLE, FROM THE "NORHT" TO "EAST" THEN SOUTH. YIN IS TO ABSORB. SO THE ENERGY NEEDS TO BE CHANGED HERE AND NOW. BECAUSE HERE IS WHERE THE YANG ENERGY ENDS WITH A LOOP THE YIN ENERGY BEGINS. I PAINSTAKINGLY POINT THIS OUT IS BECAUSE AT THIS JUNCTURE 100 % OF PRACTITIONER'S MOVEMENT IS STARTING TO GET SICK AT THIS POINT. BECAUSE OF LACK WHERE AND WHEN THE RELATIONSHIPS CHANGE AS I MENTIONED ABOVE. IF WE CONTINUE TO STAY ON THIS YANG ENERGY TURNING WHILE WE ARE ENTERING THE YIN SIDE. AT THIS JUNCTURE IF ONE KNOWS NOT HOW TO CHANGE. THEN AT LEAST 2 THINGS WILL HAPPEN. 1, YOUR OPPONENT CAN FEEL YOU ARE NOW "PUSHING" YOUR 'SPIRALING FORCE' AWAY FROM HIM TO HAVE ANY EFFECT TO HIS CENTER TO CONTROL HIM. SO HE CAN CAPTURE YOUR "CENTER CROSS" TO CONTROL YOU. BECAUSE YOU HAVE GIVEN HIM A VERY STRONG SENSATION YOU ARE "PUSHING OUT"(PROJECTING) INSTEAD CHANGING TO "ABSORBING IN" THE YIN.WHILE YOU ARE TRAVEL IN THE YIN TRACK. OF COURSE YOU ARE STILL THINKING (MENTALLY) TO TURN IN TOWARD THE EAST THEN SOUTH. BUT IN FACT YOU ARE PUSHING (PHYSICALLY) OUTWARDLY TO THE 'NE" AND KEEP GOING AWAY FROM THE CIRCLE AND NEVER REACH THE EAST.NOW YOU ARE SPINNING OUT OF CONTROL FROM YOUR SACRUM'S AXIS. YOU NOW HAVE LOST YOUR "NEUTRAL" FOR ANY QUICK CHANGE WITH A CHANGE. YOU HAVE NOW GIVEN HIM AN OPENING TO ENTER YOUR "GATE" AND PENETRATE YOUR SPHERE. HE ARRIVED FIRST WHEN AND IF YOU DO CHANGE. 2. YOU ARE LOST! AND DON'T KNOW HOW TO GET BACK… SO AT THIS JUNCTURE YOU MUST FOCUS ON YOUR AWARENESS TO LINK YOUR BODY TO TRUST THE MIND AND AIM AT THE "NE" ROTATING DOWN TOWARD THE "EAST" TURNING TOWARD THE "SE" THEN LOOP BACK INTO THE SOUTH, WHERE YOU BEGIN AND END AT THE RETURN TO "NEUTRAL" AND BE READY FOR ANY CHANGE .
I CAN SEE WHY IT IS BETTER TO TURN THE AXIS (SACRAL BONE, THE BONE LOCATED INSIDE AND IN THE MIDDLE) TO ROTATE THE RIM (HIP BONE, THE BONE LOCATED OUTSIDE OF THE SACRAL BONE.)
MASTER SAM CHIN ALWAYS REMINDS US "YOU MUST FINISH THE CIRCLE/LOOP". AS IT SEEMS ALL OF US CIRCLING A TAIJI MOVEMENT HALF WAY AND THEN MAKE A STRAIGHT LINE SHORT CUT AND LOSE THE TAIJI COMPLIMENTARY FORCE. ENDING UP BEING CONTROLLED BY OTHER.

CIAO,
YSLIM
PS,IAM NOT SCREAMING WITH BIG LETTER, IT JUST BETTER FOR MY EYE.

Greetings all,

No one else has to perceive this the way I do or agree with my perception.
It works for me. It works for everyone else I've ever taught it to.
It's not just me using it, I've shared this with other teachers (from different TCC Styles) to see how they like it and to see if their students could benefit from it.

I think if you continue to balance those two views you will have good results, such as the following:

So far there are three of us teaching this and so far it's worked out well for all of us.

I do not perceive the motion of the legs/hips to be a "rocking back and forth" type of movement.
The idea of "rocking back and forth" with the leg/hip movements conflicts with how I perceive the Essential "Practice continuously and without interruption". I perceive there would be a "break" in the energy when rocking back and forth rather than a continuous, uninterrupted flow.

I think I am explaining myself badly, because I am merely describing something I have heard Master Yang explain at the last couple of seminars I have attended. He was actually having us practice this motion for several minutes by adopting a bow stance and having us throw the body weight against the bubbling well of the front foot.
Perhaps it would be clearer to think of picking up a bow and drawing it to shoot an arrow. As you pull on the string, the bow will bend. When you release the string, the bow will not simply snap instantly back to its original position. The force that is released will actually cause the bow to snap back past its original shape for an instant and then oscillate back and forth until it comes to rest at its original shape. As I understand it, when we move weight from the back leg to the front, we need to keep the leg joints relaxed and springy (i.e., not stiff and not limp). This quality will make the arch of the legs act a little like the bow in my analogy and oscillate back and forth until they come to rest.

When I perform this movement in the form, the oscillation is mostly imperceptible from the outside, but I try to feel it on the inside. If you were not looking for it, you would definitely not see it. When, on the other hand, I throw my weight forward with some force, the oscillation is clearly visible, even if still not obvious. In this case, the front leg will absorb perhaps 90% of the force, but 10% will visibly bounce back to the rear. Then 90% of the 10% (i.e., 0.9%) will bounce back to the front. After this, it is hard to say what more is actually visible as the oscillation tamps down and reaches equilibrium.

When I think of the hips and waist, I do not think much of movement per se, but more of what is posted on this site as part of the explanation of "Synchronize Upper and Lower Body." (By the way, I used to like the use of the word "synchronize," but now would prefer to translate the Chinese to myself as "Upper and lower follow each other" since my practice has physically changed.) That part says:

"With its root in the foot, emitting from the leg, governed by the waist, manifesting in the hands and fingers - from feet to legs to waist - complete everything in one impulse."

Rather than "emitting," I would prefer the word "developing." This explanation would then describe four actions: rooting, generating, controlling, and manifesting. I think it is important to consider these actions separately, and that this is perhaps Yin. But these actions must complete "one impulse" or "one qi," and this is perhaps Yang. Only when we see both aspects do we get one Taiji.

When we talk of body parts corresponding to the four actions, we talk of foot, leg(s), waist (lumbar area), and hands/fingers. This means we need to use the foot to root, the leg(s) to generate, the waist to control, and the hands/fingers to manifest; however, if this is all we do, how can we have "one impulse"? To my mind, it is not that the legs are the only body part that generates force, but rather that it is the key to generating force. The foot, waist, and hands also generate; however, if you go too far in that direction, you lose the specialization of functions. Similarly, it is not that the waist is the only part that controls, it is rather that it is the part that is the key to control.

When we talk about the hips, my current understanding is that the hips share characteristics of the legs and of the waist, but that they are more part of the legs. If we are addressing power generation, the hips must move before the waist so that the waist has something to control. If, however, we are talking about control, then the waist must move before the hips; otherwise, how can it lead? In either case, I think we want to avoid overloading the functions of the legs and giving nothing for the spine to do, at least according to our style. We do this, in my view, by focusing on four actions and four different parts of the body.

In terms of feel, I think we can use the horse stance we would use for simple standing meditation. We make sure to round the crotch by bending the knees and keeping them somewhat over the feet so that the pelvis feels like the top of a Roman stone arch rather than the top of a triangle. We can relax and extend the leg joints so that the muscular dynamic actually replicates some of the physics of a building arch with the pelvis acting like a keystone. An alternate way of feeling the muscular dynamic would be to feel as if the legs form a bow, with the pelvis and the tailbone acting as the central grip of the bow. Then we can relax and extend the lumbar region (i.e., the Tai Chi "waist") so that the spine from neck to tail bone can feel like an arrow that is being gently drawn down through the bow of the legs. Keep the feet flat, but the weight mostly in the balls of the feet. Your legs should feel bouncy if they are properly relaxed.

While the stance I have described is good for transferring power up the spine and is very stable, it is not good for transferring power forward or back. We know from the theory and Laozi that maximizing our abilities in one way tend to minimize them in another. To have a better compromise, our style tends to require one foot forward and one foot back at a 45 degree angle. This compromise involves some rotation of the hip joints and some twisting of the pelvis to avoid twisting the spine too much.


The result should be a posture that preserves the bow/arch of the legs and makes clear how that bow would transfer energy to the "arrow" of the spine. In that posture, the hips have two roles: they connect the two limbs of the bow to the grip. (In my view the two legs are the limbs and the pelvis is the grip) and they increase the range of motion of the waist when needed. Although I may have described what I understand of the structure and feel of the stance, I have not described the motion needed to get there in actual usage or how the hip actually moves through time. I frankly do not understand this aspect in any detail since I focus on other aspects of practice. What I think I understand better is the motion required of the "waist."

To understand how we can and should move the waist in our style, you should imagine that the lumbar spine and the surrounding soft tissues form a ball. Make a fist with your hand, which can stand in for the ball. Now move your fist in a small circle through the transverse plane. This is the plane that divides the body into upper and lower parts and is like the plane in which a merry-go-round or carousel rotates. Now move your fist in a small circle through the coronal plane. This is the plane that divides the body into front and back and is like the plane in which the hands of a wall clock move (imagining your chest as the clock). Now move your fist in a small circle through the sagittal plane. This is the plane that divides the body into right and left parts and is like the plane in which a bicycle wheel moves as you ride it.

The waist, depending on the posture, will physically move in any of these three circles your fist has used, in either direction (i.e., clockwise or counterclockwise), making six possible circles. The waist can also move in any of the circles in between the six, for instance by tilting any of the circles on a diagonal. Instead of tracing a small circle with the fist, we could also have simply rotated it in place in any of the three planes, making twelve basic motions (i.e., three rotations in both directions plus the six circles). In fact, the circles can and are also combined. For instance, a typical motion our waist should make during some parts of the form is a left-right figure eight that curves through all three planes.

My understanding of our form is that we normally use combined circles that are often physically somewhat subtle. In other words, if you are not looking for them, you may not see them completely; and the longer the motion you observe, the more combinations of circles may be included. My understanding is still developing and so the following examples may not be completely correct. Examples of the transverse (carousel) circle/rotation might be the leftward or rightward motions of Rollback, Press, and Cloud Hands. Examples of the coronal (clock face) circle/rotation might be the Snake Creeps Down, the Shoulder Stroke in White Crane Spreads Wings, or the end of Ward Off left. Examples of the sagittal (bicycle wheel) circle/rotation might include Withdraw and Push and Needle at Sea Bottom. Examples of figure eight circles/rotations might include Deflect Downward, Parry, and Punch and the combined left-right movements in Cloud Hands. Rollback, and Single Whip.

The above over-long post describes my understanding of the structure of the legs and the waist movement that this allows. Since my understanding of this framework is still developing, I am sure many details are wrong or misleading; however, I think the overall thrust is correct for our style.

Take care,
Audi

Audi,

Your explanation of waist movement is very clear and directly in line with how Yang Laoshi explained using the waist to us last week at his lecture in Louisville.
Yang Laoshi's lecture covered many topics, among them was the correct usage of the waist.
Your explanation is spot on with how he described it. As usual, you have written pure gold and I'm going to "borrow" it to show my students if you don't mind.
Of course I will tell them that you wrote it and where they can find the thread for further study.

I have nothing I can add to your excellent treatise except to say that while using the waist correctly is obviously vitally important it is also only one of the “gears” (that’s what Yang Laoshi called the waist during his lecture) that work together to transmit energy as described using: “Energy is rooted in the feet, generated by the legs, controlled by the waist and expressed in the hands.”
The hips are another set of gears that I feel should be employed during this process. That's how I learned to understand it from the Wu family and it's always worked out very well for me.

You say:

Although I may have described what I understand of the structure and feel of the stance, I have not described the motion needed to get there in actual usage or how the hip actually moves through time. I frankly do not understand this aspect in any detail since I focus on other aspects of practice.

And this is what most people who practice and teach Tai Chi Chuan who I have spoken with say as well.
As I have explained previously, I have made a rather extensive study of this exact thing since it has fascinated me so over the years.
Integrating “the hips” with the rest of the body isn’t rocket science; it’s not even all that difficult once you know how. However I feel it is nearly as important to the correct transmission of energy in Tai Chi Chuan as correct usage of the waist.
What's "difficult" is figuring out how to integrate the gears of the hips with the gear of the waist to make them feel they are working as one integrated unit. However, once you have done so it is my hope that you will find a much greater depth to your art.

There are those who will disagree with my method, as always, and that is fine. Not everyone will "feel" it the same way I do.
I've said it before and I'll say it again; Tai Chi Chuan is a personal journey. Everyone experiences and understands it in a different way. That's true for anything, not just Tai Chi Chuan.
I don't know if there can ever be a "right and wrong" about performing Tai Chi Chuan, as long as the principles are maintained it really just boils down to how you perceive it in yourself.
So I certainly am not going to try to say that my way of viewing how the hips get used and integrated with the rest of my body will work for everyone. Clearly it will not.
All I'm hoping is that others might find some inspiration from it and maybe find their own method of doing so after reading it.

So...
I am currently working to write up a description of how I perceive how to use the hips.
It's taking me a LOT longer than I ever imagined.
Why?
Because I'm doing my best to make it understandable to as many people as possible.
That's not easy.
My first challenge was to describe "the hips".
Seriously, this is crucial to understanding the theory as I present it.
That took me over an hour.
Then I had to figure out how to describe how the hips move using terms even I could understand.
I don't use fancy words like "coronal" or "sagittal" when I write. I'm a simple man, so I tend to think simply.
So I'm writing my description using simpler words.
No offense to you Audi, I can certainly understand the words when I see them, I just don't think like that so I don't write like that.
Then I had to explain the different ranges of motion the hips can achieve.
Again, that wasn't easy. I've boiled it down to two main rotational directions and done my best to explain that, just like the waist, they can be used separately or in combination with one another to produce even more rotational directions.
My next challenge is to describe how to use the hips when in Preparation Posture, Bow Stance and Empty Stance.
Each stance has it's own unique way of integrating the hips, so each will need its own description.
I am still debating whether to include a description of how I use my hips when walking normally.
The method is very similar to when doing bow stance but you have to use a slightly different timing.
That may be a work for another time though, or not at all.
I'll see how long the rest takes me to get done before I make up my mind about that.

So...
Stay tuned if you're interested.
I'll get this banged out and posted as soon as I can.
I thought about posting what I've already got down but then I decided I'd rather be lambasted on all of it at once rather than in dribs and drabs as I''m still struggling to explain it.

Back to writing...

Bob

Yslim,
If I'm understanding you correctly I don't know that I can agree with you entirely. Some parts make perfect sense to me, others seem a bit different than my understanding.
Which is normal so I'm certainly not going to say you're wrong about anything, just that I view things from a different perspective.
I'm going to read your post through a few more times before I say anything else though, as I'm not entirely sure I understood it all.
I'm still working on my own descriptions right now, so I'm going to finish that first and get it posted.
Then I'll come back and re-read your posting with hopefully less clutter in my head.

Bob

All,
I have not forgotten about posting my perception of correct hip usage in TCC. In fact, it has consumed me for the last week pretty much to the exclusion of a lot of other things I probably should have been doing.
I had written nearly seven pages of a Word document, edited and re-edited that, and I could have continued to write another seven, easily, and still not been done with it.
That's when I realized I was WAY over reaching.
I was trying write up everything about the hips from scratch and describe it all using my own words. It's just too much to get into one article. I finally figured that out.
So, I threw that all away and I have started over.
I've made things much easier on myself this time.
You'll see when I post it what I mean.
And I feel it's a much better article doing it the way I am now.
Certainly much shorter and more directly to the points I wish to make.
Stay tuned. I should be able to have something to post here in a couple of days.
At worst I will be able to get it posted next week as I am "on vacation" from my day job then.

Bob Ashmore wrote:Yslim,
If I'm understanding you correctly I don't know that I can agree with you entirely. Some parts make perfect sense to me, others seem a bit different than my understanding.
Which is normal so I'm certainly not going to say you're wrong about anything, just that I view things from a different perspective.
I'm going to read your post through a few more times before I say anything else though, as I'm not entirely sure I understood it all.
I'm still working on my own descriptions right now, so I'm going to finish that first and get it posted.
Then I'll come back and re-read your posting with hopefully less clutter in my head.

Bob

HI BOB.

WE WERE AWAY FOR 11 DAYS ON AN ISLAND CALL KUAUI WITH NO COMPUTER OR CELL PHONE IT WAS PRETTY QUIET. ONLY COMPANIES WE HAVE WERE 50 MILE-A-HOUR WIND AND THE PASSING RAINS. IT IS A WELCOME SIGHT TO COME HOME TO SEE YOU HAD TAKING THE TIME TO POST SOMETHING FOR ME. I THANK YOU IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR LONG EFFERT TO RE-WRITE YOUR MASTER PIECE SO WE COULD ALL UNDERSTAND IT WHEN IT COME OUT ON YOUR NEXT POSTING. I ONLY WISH IT WILL COME BEFORE THE SANTA CLAUS AND WE DON'T HAVE A CHIMNEY. BECAUSE I HAVE TO BE ON THE ROAD ON CHRISTMAS DAY TO BABY SIT MY 2 GRAND DAUGHTERS FOR A WEEK. SINCE WE DID SURVIVED THE 12/21/2012 END-OF-THE-WORLD. AND THE 2013 IS COMING SO TAKE YOUR TIME BOB, AND MAKE IT GOOD!

AS FOR MY PREVIOUS POSTINGS. I WAS NOT SEEKING THE RIGHT OR WRONG NOR THE SAME PERSPECTIVES FROM YOU. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE AGREE WITH ME. IT IS PERFECTLY ALRIGHT WITH ME WHAT YOU SAID AND DO/DID/DONE AS LONG AS IT IS A "HOW" THAT COME WITH IT. I WAS TRYING TO GIVE YOU SOMETHING WITH GREAT HOPE THAT YOU WILL GIVE SOMETHING BACK IN A FORM OF "PROCESS OF HOW IT/YOU GET THERE THE WAY IT/YOU DID". SO I CAN TAKE IT TO THE PARK AND TRY IT OUT. IT IS LIKE I GIVE/PROJECT ENERGY TO THE GROUND WE CALL 'ROOTNG'. I EXPECT THE GROUND WILL GIVES BACK THE GROUND ENERGY TO ME. IF THAT HAPPEN I WILL TAKE IT TO MY MOBLE TAIJI LAB TRY TO WORK IT OUT HOW TO ABSORB IT. THUS A WAY TO GENERATE MY POWER. WITHOUT THE EARTH'S GRAVITY FORCE UNDER OUR FEET WE ALL WILL BE WEIGHTLESSNESS. SO IF ONE TELL ME "THE FORCE IS GENERATE FROM THE FEET" IT DOESN'T MEANS A BEAN TO ME AS TO HOW TO DO IT. IT WAS AND STILL IS "THE PROCESS OF AGING" I SEEK FROM ALL OF YOU. SO DON'T TELL ME "JUST GET OLD VER IT". HOPE YOU GET MY DRIFT.

CIAO,
yslim

Yslim,
That sounds like a wonderful vacation.
Mine was rather the opposite, since I sat in Kentucky in front of my wood burning hearth while it snowed, sleeted and rained outside for most of my time off.
Next time I get a vacation, I'm going somewhere warm with a sandy beach!!!
But I couldn't drag my wife away from the new grand baby, so I stuck it out here this time.

As for your post, I have not gone back to read it again yet.
I'm still writing my article on the subject and I want to finish that first.
Then I'll go back and reread your posting and make some more in depth comments/comparisons.

On that note...
I am still writing.
I have to admit to spending more time doing renovations on my house and playing with the baby than I did writing.
I'm about half way through it now.
But I am waiting to hear back from my editor before I continue.
Yep, I decided to let my partner edit this before I post it.
He's a whiz at English, his mother was a school teacher, so he can make my chicken scratching actually look good and make sense.
Also, he has been there with me every step of the way while I developed this method so he can keep me on point.
In case y'all haven't noticed I tend to go off on tangents from time to time.
So far his help has been crucial in keeping me on point and understandable.
When I get my next edit from him I'll make the changes he suggests, if I feel they're in line with my method, and then I'll move forward again.
That said, I will post this on it's own thread.
This one is WAY off topic by now so I'll start a new one when the time finally comes.

Greetings Yslim:

PS,IAM NOT SCREAMING WITH BIG LETTER, IT JUST BETTER FOR MY EYE.

But beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and which beholder is more important for the purpose of your post? Capitalization and frequent paragraphs really do help convey meaning. Writing everything in caps in kind of like speaking in a monotone. It can put a strain on the listener to interpret what is being said.

I recently reread your December 3 post with more attention and realized that I had missed much of your intent. You give a good description of one method of leg and hip use; however, you refer several times to "spiraling motion," which seems to be more of a Chen family concept than a Yang family concept. Could it be that Sam Chin's Tai Chi and/or I Liq Chuan has more in common with Chen Style Tai Chi than Yang Style? I seem to recall reading an article somewhere written by a Chen stylist that described movements of the hip or sacrum that are similar to what you describe.

One problem in these types of discussions is understanding whether we are discussing the same thing or different things. To me, Chen Style and Yang Style are both Tai Chi, but often use different methods. Between Chen, Yang, and Wu styles, we have different stances, different placement of the feet, different weighting of the feet, different frames, and different movement of the hips and hands. I do not think we can discuss the movement of something like the sacrum unless we are clear about the context.

Bob seems to be trying to reach, express, and/or teach a synthesis of Wu and Yang styles. I wish him luck with it. Whatever conclusions he has reached may or may not be useful for what I consider my own practice methods depending on the context of those conclusions. I look forward to the discussion, but need that context to understand what we can fruitfully talk about.

Take care,
Audi

Audi,
You say: "Bob seems to be trying to reach, express, and/or teach a synthesis of Wu and Yang styles."
Yes, exactly so.
Yang Laoshi says clearly not to separate ourselves from other styles and to learn from them. I have done so as much as possible.
Yang Laoshi also speaks of "personal style" and how each of us will develop our own through a blending of our personal experiences both in and outside of the art. That this is normal and as long as the principles are maintained when we do our Yang forms, and that we always perform the traditional Yang form to standard, then there is nothing wrong with that.
My "personal style" is an amalgam of the two TCC styles I have studied over nearly three decades as well as every bit of instruction and theory I can learn from all the styles. There are other factors, obviously, but you certainly cannot, more importantly should not, ignore 27 years of study in such nearly identical arts when you begin to work out your own personal theories about them.
And when you consider that Wu Chien Chuan style TCC comes directly from Yang style TCC it only makes sense that there isn't really very much "difference" between them.
Once I understood that these two styles are really the same thing not only in principle but also in execution, I found I was able to understand them both far better and am now able to bring them together as a greater whole. This, to my way of thinking, is far preferable than trying to keep them "separate". That is a particularly bad idea and I see that clearly now.
I am one person, with one brain and one body. I am going to "blend" the two main styles I have studied as well as every other bit of theory and usage I have ever learned from any style and I will never apologize for that.
In fact, I embrace it.

All TCC styles teach to use the whole body as one integrated unit.
One part of that unit is "the hips".
You can't not use your hips if you're going to integrate your entire body any more than you can not use your waist.
In my mind I keep hearing Si Kung Eddie Wu saying, "You have to learn your body parts first. How can you use your whole body if you don't know how to use each of your bodies parts?"
From your own admission you have little or no idea how to use the hips.
How can you have an integrated body if you don't know how to use all of your bodies parts?
More importantly, how can you teach anyone else to use their entire body if you don't understand how all of the body parts work?
I will present my method of using the hips just as soon as I am comfortable that I have crossed all the T's and dotted all the I's.
Then we shall know if any of it will bear fruit for anyone other than myself and those who are already using it successfully.
I fully and freely expect my method to not be something that everyone will agree with or be able to use. I have no problem with that, it is the way of things.
What I do hope is that it will begin to make other instructors learn more about all of their body parts so they can teach integrated body movement to their students more accurately using whatever method they prefer but with a fuller understanding of their subject.

Bob

Hello everyone,
It's ten days since my last post and I'm still working on my article.
I apologize to everyone who is waiting to read it for how long this is taking, however this project has taken on a life of its own far beyond anything I could have ever imagined when I started.
Every time I think I'm finally starting to reach the point where I can say, "Here it is!", one of my two editors points out something I could do better.
Yep, two editors now. I've brought my Wu/Hao guy in on this too. Since he was integral in bringing this method about in the first place I didn't think it would be fair to write an article about it without his input.
Their edits lead me to re-write something, which then leads me to say, "Oh, that changes this other part of the article so now I have to re-write that as well."
Which takes more time and inevitably changes things in other areas, which then takes more time to reconcile.
I bang away at it, think "There, it's done!" and send it back to them.
Inevitably one or both of them finds another flaw.
Repeat the process.
That's happened a few times now.
The main sticking points were always with my descriptions of the movements and my poor writing skills rather than with the method itself, fortunately.
It's very difficult to use words to describe a body movement so that everyone agrees they can understand it and since I can't write very well in the first place it's been an absolute nightmare.
What to do? I just couldn't get it right using words.
So Monday I opened up Paint on my computer and decided to see if I could make some simple graphics to illustrate the movements I was trying to describe rather than try to type them out in words.
I am a very poor Tai Chi Chuan practitioner.
I'm a horrible article writer.
It turns out I am an even worse graphic artist.
My first attempts were really quite sad but I persisted.
After a lot of failed attempts some semblance of meaning began to appear in my graphics. After much trial and error, and reading dozens of "how to create graphics using a computer" articles online...
I finally created a decent graphic. It's actually fairly impressive in its crude way and really does convey the method of movement clearly.
I know, right? I was more surprised than anyone.
I sent the graphic to my two editors who both said, "Wow. Why didn't you just do this in the first place?" or things to that effect.
Heavy sigh.
At least they liked it.
What were the odds?
So I plugged that graphic into the article, rewrote the bits where I was trying to describe the first set of movements (this is an entire method, there's more than one description of movement), taking out all the descriptive terms and instead saying basically, "Here, look at this. It's cool, you'll love it. Do it like this."
I sent that on to my editors thinking, "This is it! I'm done."
Jim then said, "Why don't you use this graphic as a base and make more of them instead of trying to keep describing movements with words through the rest of the article? Wouldn't that be easier?"
I said, "Sigh!"
I did, I said it, you can ask him.
Then I said, "OK, you're right. Here goes nothing."
And I began my journey into graphic making.
Fortunately it's much easier to do now. I have some knowledge and a bit of experience and I'm working from a graphic that exists instead of trying to create one from scratch. I'm simply adding in lines and arrows and text to show what I'm trying to convey so it's going pretty smoothly.

I had to tell you all of that to tell you this...

This morning I was working on one of the last graphics. I was pleased because I felt I was once again getting near the end of this behemoth of a project. All I had left to do was create one more graphic after this one to tie it all together, a much easier job as all it entailed was using the base graphic and rewording some things to summarize it all up. Then I could plug the graphics into the article, reword some things slightly, and I'd be done.
However, that is not longer true.
It's going to take a bit longer now. Sorry.
Why? A good question.

I can't go into any great detail, not without giving too much away, but as I was working on the graphic to explain the most difficult part of my method of using the hips in Tai Chi Chuan I saw something I had never even imagined would be there before.
It totally took my breath away.
So what did I see?
I can't tell you. All I can say is...
I put the last piece in place, glanced at the whole thing for a second to be sure everything was where it needed to be. I was happy with what I saw so I clicked on "save" and let out a breath I didn't even know I had been holding.
I looked away for a bit to rest my eyes and clear my head.
Then I looked back at my newly saved graphic to check it for accuracy with fresh eyes and a clear mind...
And almost fell out of my chair.

There. It. Was.

Right in front of my face was the key that unlocks the entire method.
Not once did I consider this during the three years I've been working on this method.
I should have, it was there all along, but I didn't see it until I created that graphic.
Now I can't think of anything else.
So...
Sorry folks. This is going to take some time to put together.
I've found a much deeper meaning to this method and I can't, in good conscience, not integrate what I've found.

Back to Word and a fresh re-write.
One of my editors is on board.
I think the other one ran screaming into the hills.
Frankly, I'd like to join him.
A nice, quiet cave with a good source of water near by, a handy source of firewood and plenty of food would be a nice vacation from where my brain is going right now.
And it would give me a chance to nail this down.

Bear with me.

Yslim,
Having reached a "resting" place in writing my article I went back and reread your post.
There are some aspects I agree with, some I simply don't understand and some that made me go "Hmmmm....?"
If I understand you correctly then the overall method makes sense, however the execution seems complicated.
It's a lot to remember all at once, that's for sure.
Let's see if I'm picking up what you're putting down, I'll boil it down to how I understand it:
The body is a cylinder from top to bottom. You turn the cylinder on its center axis, head top and sacrum form your plumb line, using the legs to propel you.
You use the sacrum as a pivot point and keep it level.
The energy comes from the center outward or from outside back in using spirals around the center axis.
Don't deviate from central equilibrium by throwing your waist from side to side.

Am I seeing this correctly?

Bob

Bob Ashmore wrote:Hello everyone,
I
A nice, quiet cave with a good source of water near by, a handy source of firewood and plenty of food would be a nice vacation from where my brain is going right now.
And it would give me a chance to nail this down.

Bear with me.

Hi Bob,

Did you say you are from Kentucky? From what you describe above, It sounds like a good detailing plan you are capable of making anything. That brings forth my question....Can you make the moon shine?

Ciao,
yslim

Audi wrote:Greetings Yslim:

PS,IAM NOT SCREAMING WITH BIG LETTER, IT JUST BETTER FOR MY EYE.

Hi All,
the above p.s. was my attempt apology in short. I submitted a longer apology awhile back when someone informed me it was rude to use all cap on line. The main reason I use it because I can see better with my typing. My optometry Dr. Seemore informed me I have 2 cataracts. He say that is normal for people over 70s like me! The doctor won't operate on it just yet. Getting old is interesting, In my youth I have vision to conquer the world, now I have a bigger challenge, try to change the youth.... YSLIM

But beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and which beholder is more important for the purpose of your post? "

Hi Audi,
typing for this posting with 'normal' size letters is certainly not the beauty in the this pair of eye of beholder. I behold The Taiji Principle (the way) over the techniques (the tools) is more important for the purpose of my post...YSLIM

"Capitalization and frequent paragraphs really do help convey meaning. Writing everything in caps in kind of like speaking in a monotone. It can put a strain on the listener to interpret what is being said. "

OK Audi,
you are absolutely right. I apologize for my rudeness. Strain to my eye should not be my handicap to type. no excuse for that. sorry about that. I won't do it again. My temptation to retiring from typing is in my near-sighted future. My lovey keep telling me I'm wasting my time and nobody appreciate it any way. May I have a grace to surrender the thing of the youth....YSLIM

"Bob seems to be trying to reach, express, and/or teach a synthesis of Wu and Yang styles. I wish him luck with it. Whatever conclusions he has reached may or may not be useful for what I consider my own practice methods depending on the context of those conclusions. I look forward to the discussion, but need that context to understand what we can fruitfully talk about."

Hi Audi,
Whatever Bob does, Bob does it unfold as it should; changing with a change. if so simple why so hard! ha ha. He can take all the time in the world. Since I only interest on the Taiji principles so I'll try to practice like one. Empty the mind of thoughts and listen to the moment in silent. Cultivate the quietness instead thinking into the future on what Bob might come up with. whether it is useful to our own practice or not. In TCQ that would be counts as "resist". I remain in contact by staying in my "neutral" to have a "middle between" us. Let Bob have his space and time to regroup. I shall know the truth as we "meet the force" again when the "moment of now" arrives. This is my learning and practice to master the theory and principles (the way) not the tools. (techniques) I practice Taiji solo form in "shadow boxing" manner from day one, but never with a prescribed application of counter with counters techniques. That cause me to building up all kind of "old habits". It will trains me into a slower starter mindset, because I need to unload that was planned in my intention before I could instantly deal with what Bob could dealing me a surprise. My physical body may developed a "not-quite-trusting" feeling the yin body's reliability to leads. I practice my daily life and TCQ the same way, one move/day as a time. So I like to practise stay-in-neutral while I wait for Bob's master piece meet my eye. It will be "the beauty is in the eye of beholder who waited". ...YSLIM

Ciao,
yslim

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