Yang Family Tai Chi Discussion Board

Posted: **Wed May 03, 2017 7:51 pm**

DPasek wrote:Since I am a Biochemist, I do have some familiarity with ATP....

If CD wants to propose that ATP may have something to do with jin in Taijiquan, he would need to find some supporting information. As far as I can tell at this time, increasing the ATP levels in cells would make little difference in muscle strength or fatigue. See for example the following study:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2253504/

I am glad that you are a Biochemist and I am an Electrical Engineer. I was hoping to find someone like you to talk to for a long time. Now, I am glad that I have found one. Otherwise, most people don't know what I am talking about.

Yes, you are right about increasing the ATP levels in cells would make little difference in muscle strength or fatigue. Using supplements to increase the ATP level is not the way to go. It is because the ATP level will be gone when the supplements are used up. Hence, the body should not rely on supplements but to generate energy on its own by the glucose and oxygen.

BTW Fatigue was caused by the lack of oxygen or hypoxia which cause the glucose turns into lactic acid or lactate. If we have a way to supply a constant source of oxygen to the cell, then, fatigue will never be taken place to begin with. Again, the increase amount of oxygen from abdominal breathing will eliminate the fatigue problem. Recently, for the last few months, I had digged up my good size front yard to remove all the grass and convert it into a desert garden. I was very energetic while digging and separating the soil from the grass. Afterward, no fatigue and no sight of weakness. BTW I was doing abdominal breathing each time when I raise the hoe before it goes into the soil. Indeed, I know where my source of energy came from and how to generate the energy. This is what I had learned from the energy formula and Tai Ji practice.

Posted: **Wed May 03, 2017 8:04 pm**

If having increased levels of ATP resulting in increasing strength and/or endurance is not supported, then proposing a mechanism that would increase ATP production (i.e. more mitochondria) would be irrelevant.

Being winded, or short of breath, or suffering from shallow breathing, or hypoxia is important. But, although you may have gone from an abnormally weakened respiratory condition to a return to normal levels, most Taijiquan practitioners start relatively health, and would therefore probably not experience your perception of tremendously increased energy level. Perhaps that increased level is merely getting back to normal. Severely ill patients can have half the level of blood ATP as healthy individuals.

Can you find any studies that show any populations with higher than normal levels of ATP having higher indicators of health or physical performance? If not, then this is probably irrelevant to Taijiquan practice.

Oxygen levels are probably important in Taijiquan, but the levels of ATP in the cells is probably not, at least for healthy individuals.

Posted: **Wed May 03, 2017 8:43 pm**

DPasek wrote:If having increased levels of ATP resulting in increasing strength and/or endurance is not supported, then proposing a mechanism that would increase ATP production (i.e. more mitochondria) would be irrelevant.

Can you justify the former?
If the ATP gives us all the energy, then, how can you say that the increasing levels of ATP does not increase our physical strength?

I can justify the latter.

Exercise Helps Keep Your Mitochondria Young
Exercise also promotes mitochondrial health, as it forces your mitochondria to work harder. As mentioned earlier, one of the side effects of mitochondria working harder is that they're making reactive oxygen species, which act as signaling molecules. One of the functions they signal is to make more mitochondria. So, when you exercise, your body will respond by creating more mitochondria to keep up with the heightened energy requirement.

This article supported increasing the production of more mitochondria to keep up the energy demand. We do Tai Ji exercise everyday which keep the body healthy and energetic. Does this ring the bell?

Red: http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic ... ealth.aspx

Posted: **Wed May 03, 2017 9:43 pm**

DPasek wrote: Being winded, or short of breath, or suffering from shallow breathing, or hypoxia is important. But, although you may have gone from an abnormally weakened respiratory condition to a return to normal levels
CD: This is under normal condition for average people. However, if a person who has hypoxia due to a breathing problem will result to have chronical diseases.

, most Taijiquan practitioners start relatively health, and would therefore probably not experience your perception of tremendously increased energy level. Perhaps that increased level is merely getting back to normal. Severely ill patients can have half the level of blood ATP as healthy individuals.
CD: This is a very broad generalization and evasive statement without merit for the discussion.

Can you find any studies that show any populations with higher than normal levels of ATP having higher indicators of health or physical performance? If not, then this is probably irrelevant to Taijiquan practice.
CD: Again, it is evasive or avoiding the issue.

Oxygen levels are probably important in Taijiquan, but the levels of ATP in the cells is probably not, at least for healthy individuals.
CD:
Wait a minute, I am a bit confused here. Taijiquan doesn't need oxygen but the body does. What is Taijiquan going to do with the oxygen if it is so important? ATP requires oxygen to be generated in the cells to provide the energy. If I understand you correctly, after all this talk about ATP, then, you are saying that the ATP in the cells is not important? What are you really saying?

Posted: **Thu May 04, 2017 2:17 pm**

CD,

I do not need to justify anything as I am not the person making the hypothesis. The burden is on you to show that your idea is reasonable scientifically (not just pseudo-scientifically). There is a term that has been applied to Chinese pseudo-scientific usage of scientific terms, beginning in the late 1800’s, to describe things including martial arts:

They also use Scientization to refer to the project of adopting scientific sounding language to describe inner alchemy, meditation, qigong, or martial arts in an attempt to confer authority under the new consensus (Liu, 2009).
Of the top of my head I would guess that oxygen in the rate limiting factor in the equation that you gave, rather than ATP. In laymen’s terms, we can only hold our breath for a relatively short time, but we can go without food for days.

The exercise and mitochondria reference only indicates maintenance of normal levels (i.e. preventing decline), not excess. Plus, the article that I linked to indicates that there is no improvement in strength or endurance from ATP supplementation. If you have a problem with that study, then address that study or find a study that contradicts it. If you do not think that the ATP lasts long enough in their study, then find a study that shows the half-life of their supplement, and show that their experimental methodology is flawed....

You are extremely far away from being convincing.

Do solid research if you wish to gain support for your hypothesis.

Your confusion shows that you do not understand science. Oxygen is probably rate limiting, ATP is likely in vast excess (e.g., fatigue conditions only reduces ATP levels by about 10-20%).

Do better research!

Posted: **Thu May 04, 2017 4:55 pm**

Of the top of my head I would guess that oxygen in the rate limiting factor in the equation that you gave, rather than ATP. In laymen’s terms, we can only hold our breath for a relatively short time, but we can go without food for days.

The oxygen in the equation is the function of ATP. The more oxygen in the equation give more ATP. What about if one was locked in the room without oxygen? Even with the food stored in the body, one will die in a short time. The oxygen was given in the equation is to show how important it is for the vital health of the body.

BTW who is going to hold the breath for a short time. I would breathe as much as I can to generate my body energy by cell respiration. I am here to convince myself with my own findings. I don't need any inconclusive studies to prove that I am not going the right approach. If people wants to continue with the ancient factoids and believe them blindly is fine with me. As far as body energy goes, I can only relate it to ATP with nothing else. What else is there? I am getting closer and closer to my understanding as the way it is. My body tells me that I am doing the right thing at the moment. If people would like to stay away the fact about cell respiration, then, they will go farther and farther away from the truth(perhaps my truth).

Good luck in your own practice!

Posted: **Thu May 04, 2017 5:47 pm**

You are restating my point that oxygen is the limiting factor, not ATP, yet you continue farther down the rabbit hole. If you are unable to present rational scientific evidence (or demonstrate critical thinking skills) to support your claims, then you are wasting my time. You are free to continue deluding yourself based on your personal feelings; that way there is no need for actual objective evidence.

Posted: **Sat May 06, 2017 4:45 pm**

DPasek wrote:Your confusion shows that you do not understand science. Oxygen is probably rate limiting, ATP is likely in vast excess (e.g., fatigue conditions only reduces ATP levels by about 10-20%).

You are restating my point that oxygen is the limiting factor, not ATP,.....

Okay I think I know what you are saying now. Yes, oxygen is rate limiting is because it depends on how one breathes. However, please don't forget, the production of ATP depends on a constant supply of oxygen. The slow and long abdominal breathing is the only solution to provide a constant source of oxygen to the cells for cell respiration. The body muscle fatigue was due to hypoxia. If the glucose are short of oxygen, then, it will convert into lactate which cause fatigue. As a result, the ATP level drops tremendously a lot more than 10-20%. The body can hardly function until the oxygen debt was paid off.

Posted: **Mon May 08, 2017 12:50 pm**

That does not seem correct. Could you provide a source for your information?

ATP was decreased 30% after 24-h hypoxia, but lactate production rate was not affected.

http://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10. ... 004-0202OC

Posted: **Mon May 08, 2017 8:11 pm**

Please be familiarized with Cell Respiration and oxygen before going into some irrelevant experiments. Cell respiration is a natural cause of nature. Artificial experiments still rely on the cell respiration process. In order to see a different result of the production of ATP, only if any one of the cell respiration cycles was interrupted. If one understands the Cell Respiration, then, one will find out how much ATP was generated rather than how much it was lost.

Refs:
http://antranik.org/cell-respiration-pa ... mentation/
http://antranik.org/oxygen-debt/

Posted: **Tue May 09, 2017 4:29 pm**

Really? You post links to very simplified and generalized schematics and summary articles as some type of misunderstood support for your ideas? You consider directly relevant and detailed research by specialists in the field as being irrelevant? REALLY?

Cellular processes are very complex, much more so than can be easily summarized or diagramed, and if you think that those simplifications are all you need to address the topic, then you are a fool.

Just because I cannot find scientific information to support your ideas does not mean that I do not understand the issue. Telling me that I need to familiarize myself with cell respiration and oxygen does not show where you got the following probably incorrect information:

ChiDragon wrote:The body muscle fatigue was due to hypoxia. If the glucose are short of oxygen, then, it will convert into lactate which cause fatigue. As a result, the ATP level drops tremendously a lot more than 10-20%.

Do you think that the authors of the research that I quoted do not understand cell respiration and oxygen?? Do you think that your understanding is better than theirs?? Your statements directly contradict the research that I linked to. Unless you show research that supports your statements, you should be considered as being WRONG. ATP decreased only 30% after 24 hours of hypoxia, and the lactate production rate was unaffected! The information is DIRECTLY relevant to your information (not irrelevant as you try to claim)!

You seem to be stating that “artificial experiments” are unreliable, even though science is the pursuit of truth – the search for understanding of how nature really works. Therefore, I can only conclude that you do not understand science!

You can not just cite and misinterpret general information that seems to fit with your ideas while ignoring or dismissing (without supporting scientific evidence) the specific information that contradicts your ideas. That just shows that you are far from understanding science and far from understanding the specific topic. Please get a better understanding of science. Please do better research. Get a better than general understanding of the subject matter.

Invest in finding the truth rather than only paying attention to things that imply that you are right! Otherwise you are an unreliable source prone to bias. Try to conquer your ego! For me, you have not shown that you can be a reliable source for information.

Unless you can become a more reliable source of information, you will be dismissed by me! You are not worth my time.

On another thread I said that your limited perspective reminded me of the frog in the well story, and you asked me if I thought that you were stupid. Well, I do now! Not only do I think that you are stupid, I think that you are so stupid that you cannot realize how stupid you are being about this issue!

Actually, you probably are not stupid in general, but you have invested so much (years!) into the idea of ATP and Taijiquan that you have blinded yourself to anything that does not support your beliefs. Trying to explain science to you is similar to trying to explain science to a religious fanatic. I think that your belief in ATP’s importance in Taijiquan is so great that the subject has almost become a matter of faith for you. You seem to have lost your ability to be objective.

When you cannot understand some information that does not support you, you resort to such nonsense as claiming common sense, or vague unreliability of the source, without showing any supporting reasons for your belief. “Common sense” is unreliable and leads one to misconceptions. Common sense shows all of us that the sun circles around the Earth – just look at it; it is obvious! But it is also WRONG.

You have so convinced yourself that you are right, that you cannot conceive of yourself as being wrong (and thus, everything that does not support your beliefs must be wrong, or those citing the information must be insufficiently informed...).

You have not shown the ability to be a reliable source of scientific information. Until you can do better at researching and presenting information on this topic, I must consider you as spouting terribly misleading pseudo-science; and that you are wrong!

Posted: **Tue May 09, 2017 5:40 pm**

The theory of Cell Respiration is sufficient to support my claims is because it is not a pseudo-science.

The Cell Respiration is scientifically tells how energy was GENERATED and when it does not. Using an experiment to show how much energy was lost, in a specific time period, is irrelevant in this case.

Posted: **Tue May 09, 2017 6:26 pm**

You are using a scientific principle (cell respiration) to “support” things that science does not confirm = pseudo-science.

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2017 12:21 am**

DPasek wrote:You are using a scientific principle (cell respiration) to “support” things that science does not confirm = pseudo-science.

Okay! Scientific principle is not science then. Is that what you are conveying!?

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2017 1:41 pm**

ChiDragon wrote:
DPasek wrote:You are using a scientific principle (cell respiration) to “support” things that science does not confirm = pseudo-science.
Okay! Scientific principle is not science then. Is that what you are conveying!?

Quit being stupid! That IS NOT what I am saying!

Pseudoscience includes beliefs, theories, or practices that have been or are considered scientific, but have no basis in scientific fact. This could mean they were disproved scientifically, can't be tested or lack evidence to support them.

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