Greetings all,
However, if one didn't know the difference, then he/she will be misled by the instructor who was using the bogus terminology to obfuscate the actual nomenclature. BTW The instructors use the incorrect terms doesn't mean that they are correct. To me, a good teacher should put all matters in their proper perspective and try not to mislead the students. Unfortunately, most student do respect their teacher and take the teacher's words as gospel.
Perhaps, but consider the language below attributed to Yang Luchan, Wang Zongyuo, and Yang Chengfu with Paul Brennan’s translation. Note that Brennan seems consistently to translate jin 勁 as “power,” qi as “energy,” and li either as “power” or “force.”
練法須上下相隨，勁自跟起，行於腿，達於腰由脊而膊，而行於手指，周身一氣，用時進前退後，其勁乃不可限量矣
When practicing, it is necessary for the upper body and lower to coordinate with each other. Power [Jin 勁] initiates from the heel, goes through the leg to the waist, and from the spine then goes through the arms to the fingers. As long as it is a continuous process through the whole body, then when you apply power, whether advancing or retreating, the power [jin 勁] will be immeasurable.
In the preceding passage, jin is described as coming from the spine.
蓄勁如開弓，發勁如放箭，曲中求直，蓄而後發，力由脊發，步隨身換，收即是放，斷而復連，往復須有摺叠，進退須有轉換，極柔軟，然後極堅剛，能呼吸，然後能靈活氣，以直養而無害，勁以曲蓄而有餘***。
Store power like drawing a bow. Issue power like loosing an arrow. Within curving, seek to be straightening. Store, and then issue. Power [li 力] comes [issuing 發] from the spine. Step according to the body’s changes. To gather is to release. Disconnect but stay connected. In the back and forth [of the arms], there must be folding. In the advance and retreat [of the feet], there must be variation. Extreme softness begets extreme hardness. Your ability to be nimble lies in your ability to breathe. By nurturing energy [qi 氣] with integrity, it will not be corrupted. By storing power in crooked parts, it will be in abundant supply***.
In the preceding passage, li力is described as issuing from the spine using the same fa character [發] as in the term fajin 發勁, just in a different order. Based on this usage, I think saying fali 發力, has to have some acceptability for those practitioners that follow Yang Chengfu.
Again, it is a biggest mistake to translate ''氣 as 'energy'. The 氣 should be translated as "breath". Remember there is a famous phrase ＂氣沈丹田＂(sink chi to the dantian).
I prefer to leave
qi 氣 untranslated, since I consider it a cultural term with no good English equivalent, but I can agree with some arguments that could support translating it as "energy." I personally do not like translating
qi 氣 as "breath," since we have different requirements for the
qi 氣 than for breathing in general. Using a similar word for both would be confusing for us.
I also like the ideas that you try to convey with the water analogies, but to my understanding, water can pull, although to a lesser degree than it pushes. Water tends to have some sticky quality, which is why there is a film of water on hard surfaces prior to the water beading up (unless you have a surface coated with Rain X, or something similar).
DP, I just realized that I never responded to your statement above. What you say is true. Water does have a sticking ability that can be used to pull. Many people take advantage of this to turn the pages of a book by first wetting a finger and using that finger to stick to and lift up the next page. I would assert, however, that this ability is very relevant for push hands.
Imagine receiving a high-speed punch. Would you refer to receive it with big ball of plastic dipped in water, honey, or super glue, or would you prefer to receive it with a big ball of plastic filled with water.
As I think I have mentioned before, I have sometimes demonstrated peng-lu-ji-an with a Pilates ball. While I use some of the friction of the ball, there is no “pulling,”
I should make clear that I am not advocating that the opponent never gets pulled in push hands. In fact, in four out of our eight “standard” applications taught to beginners, the opponent should end up behind you. I am merely saying that Tai Chi energy is an expanding, pushing, resilient energy, and not a contracting energy.
Peng energy is linking pulling the links of a chain into tension with each other. Relaxing the chain and allowing the links to separate destroys this energy relationship.
運勁如百鍊鋼何堅不摧
Wield power like tempered steel, so strong there is nothing tough enough to stand up against it.
運勁如百鍊鋼即內勁，非一日之功也，日月練習慢慢磨練出來的，猶如一塊荒鉄，日日錘鍊，慢慢化出一種純鋼來，欲作刀劍鋒利無比，無堅不摧，太極練出來細而有鋼之勁，即鐵人亦能打壞，何妨對敵者為血肉之軀乎。
“Wield power like tempered steel.” This refers to internal power. It cannot be achieved in a single day. Practicing every day for many months, gradually work at it until it develops. It is like a lump of iron ore smelted and hammered day after day until gradually it is turned into pure steel, which if you then wished to use to make a sword, its edge would be the sharpest of all.
“There is nothing tough enough to can stand up against it.” Taiji practice develops a power that is delicate yet steel-like. It could break a man made of iron. So what defense would your flesh-and-blood opponents have?
Above, we are told to hammer out the steel, not to contract it.
如敵對手時，內勁如開弓不射之圓滿，猶皮球有氣充之。
When facing an opponent, internal power is like fully drawing a bow but not yet loosing the arrow, or like a leather ball filled with air….
Does a bow pull itself back into shape, or does it push against the string being drawn? Does a leather ball pull against a leg that kicks it, or does it only push?[/quote]
氣以直養而無害勁以曲蓄而有餘
By nurturing energy with integrity, it will not be corrupted. By storing power in crooked parts, it will be in abundant supply.
My problem with “pulling” is that this suggests trying to store energy in straight parts and disperse it into the crooked/bent parts.
You understand force but how about jin.
Please explain this! There are two men with different size pushing against each other with no speed involved. It is strictly rely on internal force (勁, jin).
Ref:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAIDi5Nip64
This is an impressive display, which I have seen before. I have no problem crediting Master Chen Xiaowang with high mastery of jin, but would have difficulty saying that he was using a “zero jin” method.
Below is a YouTube link to Master Yang Jun, giving a lecture and demonstration on push hands. He speaks Chinese, but there are English subtitles. Please note, however, that although the translation is quite good, there are places where the English terminology used is not what we are generally familiar with. There is even an occasional “typo” in the Chinese text. Let me know if there is something you find particularly unusual or surprising just to check whether it is a translation issue, rather than a content issue. I am going to go with my translation, but I hope that will not be confusing. Occasionally I will put the actual text in brackets so that it is easier to follow along. (I should also make clear that my Chinese is extremely uneven. I need the speaking, the writing, and the English subtitles to be sure I understand what is going on.)
楊氏太極推手 楊軍 Yang Style Push Hands: Yang Jun
I think the entire video is worth watching, but want to draw attention to particular parts, in light of our discussion.
At time index 10:50, Master Yang talks about using soft to conquer hard and using hard [以柔克剛] and soft to supplement each other 剛柔相濟. Our Tai Chi should then have some hardness somewhere.
Immediately after, he says we should not try to accomplish this by “stiffly clashing against, stiffly pulling, or stiffly dragging.” I think his use of “stiffly” is important, but not essential. The Chinese words he uses for “clashing against,” “pulling,” and “dragging” are generally not used to describe applications.
At time index 13:51, he talks and demonstrates about not just using touch, but also sticking and adhering, and also peng jin [supporting inwardly]. Again, our method is not “zero jin.” By the way, later, the translation shows “walk.” This really should have been simply “go.” After this, Master Yang goes quickly though ward off, roll back, press [push], and push [press]. Notice that he is not doing this in a passive way or always as a counter to a technique, but simply initiates whatever technique he wants.
Around time index 15:13, he says to do the applications he just demonstrated, you need to have listening energy, sticking [touching] energy, an understanding of the opponent, and control of the opponent. He adds that if you do not have sticking [touching] and adhering, you cannot control the opponent. Again, our Tai Chi is not simply about passively following along looking for an opportunity, you want to be able to control the opponent.
Although the pressure may be equal with the opponent, you actually want to distribute it differently throughout your body. See time index 17:07. This is a case when simple physics does not capture the complexity of the human body.
The one place you can here something that might sound like “zero jin,” is
around time index 34:13, here Master Yang explains that as we do the circling practicing, we do not want to actually show or reveal the jin, but simply imply it.
I hope this is helpful.
Take care and peace,
Audi
